51 | Exploring the role that really good internal communications plays in successful businesses

Welcome to the Inspiring Change Podcast, where I talk to leaders about internal communications, engagement, leadership, and the role they all play in creating amazing cultures.

Until analysts and shareholders start asking about employee engagement and how people feel at work, it's not going to shift. They're the people that I want to see taking an interest in it, and without it coming from them, I think in some organizations it won't really change.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change Podcast with me, Scott McInnes. It is episode 51. And it's really exciting to be able to tell you that by the time you guys listen to this, that we'll have hit another milestone. We hit a really big milestone in October. We've passed that milestone again in November. And I guess that's really all down to all of you for your likes, for your shares, for your listens, for your feedback, for all of that stuff. So first of all, I wanted to just say a very, very big thank you. And of course, if you do get a second to rate the podcast or add a wee comment, that really helps because 'cause I love to read them and I love to get your feedback. So that'd be awesome if you get 2 minutes just to do that. Another wee thing, a trailer for December. I'm excited that we are going to be running a 2-part podcast episode, podcast episodes, I don't know. We can talk about that with Jenny later. We're burning 2 podcast episodes in December on a COVID Christmas cracker because there's so much good work going on out there and so many people and organizations doing so many good things that I want to capture a load of them. And be able to play them back to you. So I've picked 5 or 6 podcast guests from previous episodes and also a couple of other people that I wanted to get on the pod to give me their ideas and their thoughts and their feedback and just examples of what they've been doing really well. And hopefully a lot of that will just be a really practical list of things that you'll be able to pick up on as we head into 2021 and perhaps as you're doing a bit of your planning. So that's all the thank yous and all the news. On with today's guest, and I'm really excited to be joined by Jenny Field from Redefining Communications. She is probably best described, I think, as a UK-based internal comms powerhouse. And she's laughing already. Here we go. What I love is that when you look at Jenny's LinkedIn profile, she describes Redefining Communications as taking the chaos out of organizations. And I love that because that's what internal comms should do. It should connect people to their organizations and it should do it in a way that's really clear clear and really simple. You know, so I'm really, you know, I'm excited about getting into some of that in a little while. She's also one leg of the three-legged stool that is The IC Crowd, an online community for internal comms, along with Rachel Miller and Dana Leeson. They've got over 6,000 followers on Twitter. Again, we might get more into that in a wee while too. And on top of all that, you're only currently the president of the Chartered Institute of PR. So, when do you get time to sleep?

I don't. It's been one of those years.

So, it's really nice to have you on, Jenny. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Oh, thank you for having me. What a lovely introduction. I love the description of the work I do with Rachel and Dana as well. I think that's fabulous. But lovely to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for coming on. So, listen, let's just kick off. I mean, you are very much an internal communicator through and through, but you didn't come from purely an internal comms background. So, When did your passion, or how did your passion for internal comms really get started?

Mm, great question. So you're right, I started with a degree in marketing and then went into public sector and worked in communications quite generally, and then went in to specialise in media relations, actually. And it was probably doing media relations that led me to explore internal communications in a bit more detail. And part of that was because I wanted to do something where I could see the impact of what I was doing more. As fun and as enjoyable and as challenging in some ways the media relations side was, it wasn't fulfilling enough for me as a person. So that's where I then started to look at internal communications and exploring that. And my passion probably really came from a stint working in an agency. So I worked for specialist internal communications agency as their business development and marketing manager, and that's where I think I just got totally immersed in the industry and was able to just spend some time, you know, researching, doing white papers on social media and connecting with people and networking. And that's where I started to really develop the passion.

Yeah, I think it's great. And I think probably our careers have followed a very similar path. I started in PR as well, which I think is actually a really— I think it's a really good grounding to learn really good writing, really good communications, really good relationship building, all that stuff. But you're right. You just don't get to see the fruits of your labor very often other than in column inches. And I found that I wasn't always that keen on the people that I had to work with either when it came to some of the journalists that I had to have interactions with, albeit 20 years ago. Tell me what you think. What do you think really good internal comms looks like? You've been around the sector for a while, you've done work in the sector for many, many years. What to you is really good internal comms?

So I think there's a couple of things. More and more for me, there's got to be the focus on human beings and understanding how humans work. And I think when I see case studies or I'm talking to people about the work they're doing, the stuff that's linked to some of that theory and some of that insight is the stuff that I think is really good, because you're taking some of the stuff that we understand about people or the theories that we know and then applying that to the everyday. They're the things that I sadly get quite excited about. So when I spoke to somebody last week about how they had mapped all of their messaging over the course of this year to some of the change models that we often hear about when we're learning about communications. I was really surprised. And, you know, and I've been in touch with them since, say, look, can you, can you share that with me so I can share it with the students that I teach on the diploma? Because I think it's so helpful to see that. It's that stuff for me that I love. I don't like the stuff that is ticking a box, that feels like it's just sticking a plaster over something and it's being done for the sake of it. The stuff that's really in tune with what we're trying to do, which for me is make relationships better, make workplaces a better place to be. And all of that, for me, has to link back to some degree to some of that theory.

Yeah, and I think what's really nice is, you know, I was on a change course a few years ago, and we looked at all the models, you know, we looked at Kubler-Ross, and we looked at Bridges, and we looked at all that, all those change models. And it's only when, I think, actually, later in life, and I often say this to my kids when we talk about, you know, if they want to go to college and stuff like that, but actually, it's only later when you have work experience, and you look back at some of the more theoretical work that people like that have done, that you kind of then go, "Oh yeah." And the light bulb goes off and you go, "Jesus, yeah, the whole endings thing that Bridges talked about, just letting people let go of what they had before, before we say to them, 'We now have to get on and march in a different direction.'" That just makes complete sense, because I've seen it now in a work environment.

And so much of it, I think, could be applied to non-work environments. I mean, the amount of conversations I have with friends and family that's linked to the work I'm doing inside organisations. I think it just, it has so many layers to it, and I think that's what I love about the internal communication space, is work is such a big part of our lives, you know, we're there so much of our time, and more so than ever this year when it's in our homes for a lot of people. But if we don't get that right, and we don't get those relationships right, or we don't get anything right about how we're talking to people and engaging with them, then it's just going to affect our lives so much more than I think we've ever given it credit for. So that's the bit for me, I just think it's got lots of layers you can and explore and is helpful to people in lots of different ways, not just at work.

Hmm, and what do you think some of the challenges are that are faced? I mean, you touched off the whole COVID thing there and people having to work at home and be remote. What are some of the things, do you think, that companies have struggled with when it comes to communicating with people when they're not actually in the office?

I think there's lots in there, and I think a lot of it depends on the culture that you've had before COVID And that was a big topic when I was doing some events back in April. Talking about the fact that you have to explore what your culture was before. If your culture before COVID was pretty rubbish, then it's not going to be amazing now. If anything, it's just going to highlight stuff. If you were looking to change that culture, it would have just escalated that. Any good crisis will escalate something that's already in train. I think some of those challenges are the things that we've seen, is that if it wasn't great before, it's been really challenging now. Where things have been brilliant, people have found ways to demonstrate their culture and do things that really bring it to life in a virtual way. I think trust is also something that's been a bit of a struggle for people, getting comfortable with the fact that people are working remotely, you can't see them, and I think for a lot of people that have been in business for a very long time, that's just been such a different way of working, and that's the bit to focus on, is that it's just very different, and therefore people are a bit scared of that. Doesn't necessarily mean that there's this huge distrust out there, we just don't know how to work like this, and because we don't know how to work like this, we're immediately concerned and slightly threatened by it. So I think there's a trust piece, there's a culture piece, and I think just individually, people have individually found it challenging to focus attention, to focus on the work, to get the balance. I mean, there's just been huge upheaval in society this year that has just had huge impacts. And if you're an internal comms person, you're trying to get messages through to people and communicate with them while people are juggling, you know, really big things, whether it's family members, childcare, you know, all sorts of stuff. Everyone's juggling something, and I think we're already trying to fight for space in a noisy world, put a pandemic on it and everything else, it's just a whole lot noisier. So I think that's the biggest challenge.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was writing a blog post last night that people can find at inspiringchange.ie/blog, cheap plug there. But it was all about how we're kind of missing those water cooler moments. And I know that people talk about it often and it's kind of just very kind of, it's almost kind of a passé throwaway comment, but actually they're really, really important. And one of the things that I probably touched on me the most in the piece was this whole idea of, have you got a second? Because have you got a second doesn't really work in a remote environment. Because it's, you know, get on the person's diary, check they've got time, set up a Zoom meeting, invite them to the Zoom meeting, try and avoid an email conversation about what's this Zoom meeting all about, because you don't want to have the email meeting or else you just sent them an email. And just trying to get those magic moments going between leaders and teams. And that's a massive issue for leaders now, I think.

Yeah. When I was talking to people, and I do a lot of work trying to get people to think about how to work productively in sort of different environments. We were doing it before the pandemic, but now so more than ever, that's the challenge is how do we connect in a way that's a bit different? And I often talk about picking up the phone as being the equivalent of popping up to someone's desk. And we've got into such a habit of messaging somebody to say, "Are you free for a quick call?" Or, "Can we just have a quick chat?" But actually, if you were in the office environment, you'd probably, I know I would've done, just got in the lift and popped upstairs and just you know, popped over to Helen's desk, and if she wasn't there, I'd have left her a sticky note. And if she was there, I'd have said, "If you've got a sec, can we have a few minutes?" The equivalent of that for me is picking up the phone, and it's something that we've got so uncomfortable with because we've got so used to technology being such an enabler that we've just forgotten how to do that. So I'm trying to get people to think about just picking up the phone and not worrying that that's intrusive, 'cause I'm pretty sure nobody worried it was intrusive when they walked up to someone's desk in the office, 'cause you're trying to get, you know, something done. So it's just thinking about what's the equivalent in the home environment.

And what's really interesting is that that's exactly one of the things I picked out, 4 or 5 things in the blog piece for leaders that they could do to perhaps try and create those moments again. And one of them was actually pick up the phone. Because as well as people not necessarily picking up the phone to ring somebody, people are very bad at picking up the phone when it rings to answer them.

Yes.

So there's definitely a whole— that whole idea of awareness precedes action of going 'Oh, Jesus, I really don't pick up the phone enough.' And if it's one of your team that comes in, it should flash up, 'Answer this, answer this, because it might be really important.' And it might only take you 2 minutes to fix. And then that's somebody, you know, somebody saved from a day of worry. Yeah. So, you know, answering the phone, if somebody's brave enough to pick it up, is really important.

Yeah. And having that conversation about how you want to communicate, I think so important. Yeah, my voicemail says, 'If it's urgent, send me a text,' because I'm rubbish at listening to voicemail. So I try and move people into the space that I'm comfortable with, so that it allows me to be more efficient as well. But yeah, lots, lots to talk about there, I'm sure.

Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting, just going back to a point you made a while ago about kind of creating more human connections at work. And I fundamentally agree that that is something that internal communications has to get much better at. One of my favorite projects in terms of working with clients is tone of voice, is helping them to define how you sound when you're speaking or you're writing internally. Because we still have that henceforth and forthwith and pursuant to our email of 3 days ago. And I'm like, sorry, you sit beside me. This is not Shakespeare. We don't need to do this. We can just talk normally to each other. But I think for me, one of the big connecting things when you think about making workplaces more human is that whole idea of purpose. And of course it was Mr. Sinek, Sinek, when he came along with his golden circle and his start with why a few years back, that made the whole idea of purpose very trendy. It's not that purpose is a brand new thing, but I guess in many ways, it kind of put it on the map. And I wonder what your take is on the whole purpose thing and the risks that companies might run if they don't focus on it, or is it that important? Are we overcooking the goose? I don't know.

I think it's a good point. And it's something I've been reading a lot more about, because I've got some theories around purpose that I'm exploring next year. But I think, Simon did make it very popular, and his analogy in his video where he talks about Apple— and I think he talks about Apple and Dell and how they talk about their products— it's great. If you haven't watched it, it's really worth the watch. But I think there is a— there is something to recognize that for some people, the purpose might be to make more money for shareholders. Now, Simon would say that's not the purpose. You know, you've kind of got to really go that back. But depending on the type of leader that you've got and all of those things, that makes it very difficult if they are completely focused on the financial side of things. Because trying to move them, you know, is it a fight you really want to have? You know, my colleague used to say, is it a hill you want to die on? And sometimes it's not. So I think you have to understand the culture that you're in. I think purpose is important. I think understanding whether you are being purposeful or purpose-led is a good conversation to explore.

What's the difference?

Well, to me, there's a bit of a difference in some people can be purpose-led in terms of everything they're doing is completely purpose-driven behind this one cause that's bigger than them. Or if you're purposeful, then you're doing things that support a purpose, but it's not the driving force behind what you're doing. And I was looking at some work by Simon Farrell on this space following an event he spoke at, which was Trudy Lewis's Talk 50. Event that he spoke at about purpose, and he's got a purposeful equation. And, um, and there's, there's some stuff in there that's really worth exploring and delving into. But they're different things for me, and I think not everybody necessarily needs to be completely purpose-led, you know what I mean? You can't all be fighting for the same thing. I think for some people it's got to be more of the purposeful than the purpose-led. The important bit for me is the how you do that. So I think we can all— you can all spend a bit of time getting behind a purpose, but how does that actually manifest itself? What are the behaviors that link to that? What does that really look like. That's the disconnect that I often think is the risk, because you can focus so much on the why, but if you haven't got the how, then you're just— it's just that sort of ticking a box exercise again.

So what about the how? Because for me, the how is values, right? It's the values of the company and the behaviors. Is it? Maybe it's not.

Yeah, I mean—

Just for listeners, Jenny is doing a shaky head, eyes to the skies, hand kind of gesture that suggests that she might not agree with me.

So I definitely think it's about behaviors more than I think it's about values, which is probably a little controversial. But behaviors for me are fundamentally important because they link so much to the relationships. Now, there's a lot of work on values. I've done a lot of work looking at values linked to chaos in organizations and how you hire people linked to your value set and all of those things. Incredibly important. But— When you're looking at an organisation's purpose and what it's there to do, how you behave inside that organisation is fundamental to being able to do that. If your purpose is linked to the environment and being sustainable and everybody's printing off everything all the time, you know, there's really tactical, basic things that will have an impact on whether you're really demonstrating your purpose. All of that links to being genuine, being authentic, all of that links to trust. So for me, there's a bigger link to what you're encouraging people to do, aligned to your purpose, than there are about values. And that's probably because I've just been around a long time and values have always traditionally been something that you just chuck on a wall and, you know, go, that's nice. You know, I've put them on mirrors before, lifts and all sorts. I mean, we've all done those campaigns. And I think that I've just got to the point where I just feel like they are, and I feel like they will probably always be a bit of that tick box. Whereas if you have values alongside behaviors, you start to see shift in how you can change things inside an organization.

And I think for me, that absolutely hits the nail on the head. It is values with behaviors. You cannot— for values to work, you can't not have behaviors. Because people need to know, you know, if we talk about being one team, is one of our values, well, what does that actually mean? What is it you expect me to do? Day in, day out. What can I be measured on? What am I going to be promoted on? What am I going to be recognized against? How am I going to score a 5 at my end of year instead of a 3? All those questions, they're the questions I think that are definitely answered by the behaviors.

Totally. And I think it's interesting what you said then about the, if your value is one team, like, we can all come up with about 5 values that probably exist in most organizations, but they feel so the same, you know, lead with integrity, and, you know, team first. You know, we know them all because they are so similar. And I remember I remember talking to the guy that looks after some of my branding stuff, and he was talking about the word integrity. So we were talking about brand personalities and different stuff, and he was like, that shouldn't be a value. That should just be a given for a decent human being. Like, you can't— if you're calling that out as a value, there's something definitely wrong here. And I just— it's always stayed with me. Whenever I see integrity, I always think, should be a given.

Love that. Just, it should just underpin absolutely everything else. Yeah, absolutely. At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.co.uk. Hiringchange.ie for more. Let's turn back to the internal comms thing for a second, because it was funny, I was looking at some stuff the other day on audience segmentation. And it strikes me that, you know, we tend to do an awful lot, and you'll know this from back to your degree and of course, and your various roles over the years, that we do a huge amount of work and invest a huge amount of money when we're segmenting our external customers, when we're looking to see, well, how do we target this company or this group with this message that group with that message versus 56-year-old grannies versus 25-year-old moms with one kid. And we spend a huge amount of time and marketing departments invest massively in that. How much of that do we do internal? Mm, I'd argue none, or at least very little, because we tend to just get on the computer and start bashing stuff out to everybody. Yes, okay, I'm exaggerating to make the point. If you work in a branch-based company like a bank or perhaps like a supermarket chain, then yes, you might segment head office people from people that work in the shop floor or in the branch or whatever. But actually, I think in general, we don't really do so much of that segmentation. And I wonder, should we?

Yes, we should. And we don't do it enough. You're completely right. I think some of that comes out of an assumption that everybody that works inside the organization is a captive audience and intently listening to hear what's being said.

That's a dangerous assumption.

Yeah, I know. Too dangerous assumptions. And I think that's where we fall down, and it really hit home for me when I did the research into how to communicate with deskless workers, because we found out in that research that relevance was one of the biggest things to help drive, you know, the communication challenges forward. So, and that's easy, right? We'll all sit here and say, oh, we all kind of know that, we all know that everything needs to be relevant, but do we really? Because relevance, when you're sat in head office, can often be that geography base of that county, or it can just be that site or that office. I don't think we really nail relevance in this way that externally we've got, you know, really further ahead in the relevant space. You know, everything is tailored to me on other platforms, whether I want it to be or not, in a lot of cases, you know. And not to go to those extremes, but I think we group people too closely together. And when I was sat with these bus drivers in a depot in Essex It was very apparent that their world was that depot, and if I was the comms person, my version of their world would have been all of Essex. I wouldn't have thought about it in that complete, you know, isolation of that particular depot, and that's because that takes resource and it takes time and all of those things. So there's definitely something to look at that, and the link with relevance is also important because it was 'cause where people will talk about things being noisy. So when people say the organization's very noisy, that's because they're not getting relevant information. So if you are working in an organization where people are saying, "God, it's just really noisy here, you know, there's just so much information," that's—

Everything's coming at me.

You have a relevance problem. If your content is relevant, people would say, "No, it's great. I've got all the information I need to do my job. Everything's fine. Don't know what you're worried about." So relevance is so important, but it takes time and investment to do the kind of personas piece and the segmentation. And how do you segment them? And also, people still can't work out the link between doing that piece of work and what you get back from it. You know, it's easier from a marketing perspective. You do the segmentation, you tailor the messages, those people will buy more things. I mean, that's simplifying it hugely. But, you know, in terms of inside an organization, why should I bother? Well, how is that going to benefit us if we spend more time doing some segmentation work and tailoring messages? How is that going to make a difference? And it's those conversations that are just not had between comms functions and leadership teams that would allow us to start to shift that forwards.

Yeah, and I know that my former boss when I was at AIB, Anth Burrows, who now runs Intelligent in Motion, he was a guest previously on the podcast. We used to spend a lot of time talking about linking and labeling. You know, if we are talking about, you know, great stories, and we're linking and labeling back to values, or we're linking and labeling back to strategy, or to other teams, or to behaviors, that's really powerful. And I think if we can start to do that, that maybe starts to fill that gap.

Yeah, I think so. I think it— I think it— I think that's exactly it. It's linking everything back together. It's making people feel part of something, but it's making it just relevant to their world. And I think there is that disconnect sometimes between an understanding of what that reality is. You know, I blogged the other day about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and aligning activity that we're doing to the needs that individuals have at certain times. And it came from reading a book about resilience where, um, the guy Ross Edgley— I don't know if you've read it, Art of Resilience, a brilliant book— but he talks in the book about getting to like the 100 days of his swim, and this sort of, um, big air display went over him, and he said he knew the intention was lovely and it was, you know, 100 days, he said, but all he wanted was bread. And it just really stuck with me about organizations and how we can do this great big fanfare about stuff, but actually all I want is 'all I want is to be paid on time,' or 'all I want is to know what my job description is.' And not aligning those is where I think, you know, we start to fall down. So you've got to have that relevant content with what people need at the time that you're communicating.

I love that example. There have often been times where I just want bread, and I've got a flyby, and I've gotten a flyby. It happens, you know, it happens here most mornings. It's generally the 7:10 Ryanair flight coming in from Stansted, though. I don't think they did it for me.

You can hope.

Yeah, absolutely. I just tell myself that story. It's just a narrative that goes on in my head. Was on in my head. So let's, you know, when we think about, okay, so let's carry on the conversation maybe more broadly than just segmentation and think about the issues that arise when you don't do communications particularly well. Because I know that, you know, something that you work on often with your clients is the whole area of diagnosis and fixing communication issues. And I wonder, I think particularly the bit that people get wrong is often diagnosing the actual problem.

Yeah.

Because if you don't diagnose the actual problem, then you end up fixing the wrong thing.

Yes.

And actually they've just spent, you know, 10 or 50 or 20 grand, whatever the number is, fixing something that actually A, wasn't a problem, and B, won't actually make things any better for anybody. So I wonder from your own perspective, you know, when we think about the diagnosis phase of looking at problem solving, Who is it you're talking to? What are you asking them? What are some of the issues that you uncover most frequently with clients? Or are there patterns there at all? Is everyone completely different?

They are all different. There are, there are themes that you start to explore. So I always use a medical analogy when I talk about diagnosing problems because I think it's the easiest way to make it make sense. So if you have a headache and you take a painkiller, you're treating the symptom. If you have a headache and that headache is caused by stress or by eyestrain because you need to get your eyes tested, that painkiller isn't going to make any difference. Your treatment for that needs to be an eye test and new glasses. So if you don't identify the cause of that symptom, then you're doing exactly what you said, you're spending money on stuff that's not really helping. When we start to go into organisations and we do a variety of different diagnostic tools, whether it's surveys, whether it's listening interviews, all depends on what's going on. Mainly it's listening interviews, uh, or at least a combination of having some one-to-one discussion with a survey because Quite often when you're going in to talk about things not being quite right, then you have to listen to people, and then people have to feel like they're listened to. And then theme-wise, we'll often come up with culture. Culture is the one that always comes up. And quite often we'll start to explore whether or not there's people in the organisation that don't really want to be there, and that they're creating, you know, what we would call a toxic environment, which sounds really harsh, but in some cases it really is. Is. But it's about identifying the themes, you know, when you're having those conversations, you're trying to listen for the words people use, the way they use them, what's consistent. You know, you're not looking for that specific example from Bob, you know, it's not just about Bob's world, it's about how does Bob's world map to other people's. And there's all sorts you can draw out from that. I mean, I had one client where they were all talking about their culture being amazing, really friendly, really kind. It was consistently friendly, kind, amazing. And when I fed this back to the senior management team, they were all quite delighted that their culture was being described in such a lovely way. Now, my experience tells me that's a bit of a red flag, because it means that you don't deal with conflict particularly well, which means that you are unable, therefore, to deal with failure, or you're unable to maybe challenge people in a way that is on an adult-to-adult basis, but can go across the hierarchy. Now, they would never admit that.

Both of which are really bad.

Yes.

Both of which are really, really bad.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it's having experience that tells you that's not a great space to be. It's also looking at other things that would have signalled that. It is looking at the patterns, it's looking at the trends. Culture will always come up. Strategy nearly always comes up.

People don't understand it and don't feel connected to it?

Yeah, mixture. Often not really sure— it's the why piece again. I'm not really sure why we're doing what we're doing, or I'm not really sure how things all fit together. And sometimes we'll ask questions where they'll say, "Oh, I don't know the answer to that," and actually, "No, you've asked me, I should know the answer to that." And actually, that's not okay. So, sometimes you're contributing to some of that. But there are generally themes. I mean, people are people, and I've always believed that when a recruiter will tell you you can't work somewhere because you haven't worked in that sector, that's nonsense. Because if you can understand people, then you can do this job in any sector. So you do have some consistencies in terms of what comes up, but what comes up within that, in terms of culture, will be different in every organization.

Yeah, I think it's, and that whole, the culture thing is such a big catch-all. It is such, it could be anything.

Yeah.

You know, I think often, I think you're right, you know, if culture is what comes up as being the biggest issue, then actually delving down and digging right into, well, tell me exactly what you mean by that, because it's very easy to throw the C-word out there. And it not really mean anything to anybody. Yeah, I think it's interesting as well. One of the things I often talk about when I do leadership sessions is that whole idea of awareness precedes action. And I sometimes wonder if senior people in organizations know what really good, really good internal communications and engagement with people actually looks like. Because metaphorically, I've had many conversations with senior teams that go something like, well, yes, we do do pizza and beer twice a year, so we're good with the internal 'Um, stuff, thanks.' Yeah, I mean, we've all had those conversations. When you, when you don't know what you don't know, then it's hard to know that you should be doing something different, right?

Yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges we've got in internal communications because it's so broad. And that's what I love about it, is, you know, when I talk about my career and what I do now, that's very different to what other people will be doing in internal communications because the amount of different ways you can take it is is what's brilliant about it. What that brings with it is a challenge. You know, I remember getting a new CEO, and he came from a, obviously, another organization, and I found the internal comms manager from his organization and connected on LinkedIn and said, look, Mark's joining our organization, I'd love to talk to you over a coffee just to understand how you worked with him. And we did, and we had a really great conversation because I needed to know what his understanding of internal communications was. If he was coming in here, with, you know, somebody that was doing mainly content and channel-based internal communications, then that's fine. Just means I need to know there's an education piece around what we do here from a more strategic perspective. So just having those conversations is helpful to help you work out what you want to do. But as an internal communicator working inside an organization, you have to define what internal communications is for you as well, because you can take it in so many different directions. If you want to be be the function that's all about supporting engagement and driving engagement throughout the whole organisation, that's one way. If you want to look at efficiencies and how you can save money through digital platforms and all of those things, that's another way. So there's lots of different ways you can move. I've done both of them, I know which way I prefer, but you can almost decide that in terms of where you want to go and where you want to take it. That's hugely within your gift. So I'd encourage people just to think about what is the purpose of our function and what are we here to really achieve and are we set up to do that?

I love that. And you know, one of the things I always say to guests in the pre-brief is to come on and just have some really solid kind of nuggets that people can take away and use themselves. And I think that whole idea, and it's genius, but so simple, of ring the previous head of internal comms in their old organization to find out what they like and don't like and where they've come from is absolutely brilliant. Just brilliant. Because then, as you say, it allows you to get a bit of a step on them when they land in the door.

Yeah, and people are kind, you know, generally. I always believe people come with positive intent. So if you reach out on LinkedIn and they don't answer, you know, there might be someone else in the team you could try. But generally, if you're active in networking and building those connections, you know, people are really happy to share. And good or bad, you know, that's, you kind of need to know what you're dealing with either way.

That's what you want. You don't want somebody to throw you under a bus.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So let's take this, let's take on the step there. So having done the diagnosis, you come back and you've got the recommendations for how to fix whatever the identified problems were. In my experience, it has sometimes been the case that the responsibility for that then is therefore handed to you, or it's handed to me as the external partner who's coming to fix the problems, when actually I think we should be literally handing the list of stuff to be done back over, kind of washing our hands and stepping away and going, look, you've now got to fix this internally for it really to have traction. What's been your experience in that area?

A real mix. So with some people, we do hand over a report and say, this is what you need to do, you know, go forth, and that's enough. You know, they've got enough, and we tend to just keep in touch generally with how things are going and then just make sure things are relatively on track. For other clients, we will go in and do the fix. So it depends what the nature of the fix is. If it's quite big and there's quite a lot to do and there's some, there's some kind of areas that are— I was going to say on fire, but that feels a bit dramatic. But in some cases, you've kind of got one thing where you can identify and say, look, this is—

they're not functioning, they're maybe not functioning quite so well.

There we go, we'll use that.

Yeah, let's go with that, let's go with that.

Um, then, and that's where we've kind of gone in and, and worked in there to try and, and sort of help put out the fire and fix that. And, and sometimes that's helpful because you're in it, so you're able to to focus solely on driving through that change, but at the same time you're trying to take everybody with you while you're doing that. So it can be quite an uncomfortable place to be. You're not often, you know, someone that people are loving to spend time with because you're challenging a lot while you're in that space and looking at different ways of doing things. But also sometimes having someone dedicated to that that's also educating and coaching people at the same time can be quite an efficient way of doing it. I definitely don't think I don't think it's okay to do the kind of, you know, the fix for us, and this is what you need to do, and wash my hands of it and go away, because there's development that's needed at every level in the organisation in order for it to move forwards. Otherwise, you would just have that report and you'd be going, "Oh, great, now I know what to do." You're changing behaviours at every layer inside the organisation, which is why for us, we often, you know, hang around for a few years with people just to help guide them through. And at the beginning, it's quite intense, we're all together, And then you gradually— the idea is that you gradually don't need us anymore because you've learned all the things you need to learn and can go forth.

But you become a sounding board, and I think you're always there to be at the end of a phone or the end of an email. And one of the things that I love is that whole, it's not about teaching a man to fish, it's not about catching the fish, it's actually both. It's actually about catching the fish whilst teaching the person to fish, to use that analogy, I think. And that, for me, gives me a huge sense of pride going away and knowing that I've handed over some knowledge, some experience, some confidence perhaps, some skills that that person can then take and apply themselves and they don't need me anymore. You know, actually it was quite funny at the back at the very beginning of Inspiring Change, the very first blog I wrote was that if people internally do, you know, if internal comms people internally do their job really well, then ultimately maybe down the road, that we shouldn't be required anymore, because the leaders in organizations are so good at it, and so comfortable with it, and so confident at bringing their people on those journeys, that they won't need us anymore.

Yeah, I mean, it's a nice idea.

It's probably never going to happen.

I don't think it's going to happen. And I also think, you know, not every organization has internal comms people. Most of my clients don't have internal comms people. If they do, you know, obviously, we work as an extension of a team. But quite often, I'm working with the managing directors or the owners. To help them with their skills and looking at how they need to adapt and change. And that, like you said, it's lovely, it's lovely, you know, being used less. It's lovely to walk away from it and see how people have changed and adapted and learnt, and that takes time. But I think there are a lot of organisations that have, you know, good, you know, 500, 1,500 people that don't necessarily have a comms person there to help them, and they're the ones that I think I think, you know, will either have amazing leadership that are just smashing it naturally, or will be in need of, of that help.

Yeah, yeah, it's a really tough one because when you look at that, I mean, the UK market is very different to the Irish market where you are and where I am. Um, that, you know, I think— I can't remember— something like 98.5% of businesses in Ireland by people employed are SMEs. So we are, we are a country of small businesses. So that whole idea of 1,000, 1,500, and 5— even 500 people companies are kind of rare, which is interesting. But you're right, it is having, you know, just that, again, just that awareness precedes action about the people at the top of those smaller organizations having the knowledge that really good internal comms, really good employee engagement, thinking about culture, or how you lead people, or how you bring them on the journey through storytelling, that they're actually things. That's half the battle, I think.

And, you know, I've got some clients where we've got like 90,000 employees in one, and then we've got one that's got 7. You know, it's such a range. And I also So, that's also what I love about what we do. But when I look at the organisation that's got, you know, 7 people, the challenges and issues there aren't dissimilar to the other organisations. It doesn't really matter what size you are, because often in that SME space, the person that's running it is an expert in whatever that organisation does. You know, they're not necessarily an expert in leadership, whereas when you get to some of the bigger organisations, the people that are in leadership positions have often been in leadership positions, you know, career-wise, and that's sort of what they do. If you're dealing with someone that's an expert in, you know, making products or personal training or whatever it might be, they're not experts in other side of what an organisation needs to be able to do. Being able to help them look at all of those factors is really important, but it definitely isn't organisational size. I do think, you know, 7 people, same issues as if you've got 1,000, you know, 10,000, whatever.

Actually, those what those 10,000-people companies are made up from is just lots and lots of 7-people companies. We just call them teams. And you're absolutely right that those people got to those roles and got to have a team and all that stuff, probably because they're senior, or they've been there a long time, or because they're doing a good job. But they're doing a good job being a really, really good specialist in what they do. And I think there's still that realization that actually, just because I'm good 'cause I'm good at HR or accounting or maths or science or whatever I'm good at, that I'll be a good people leader is mental.

Yeah, it's very different. And actually, I'm kicking off some research in the new year around what is the role of a line manager, because I think it is something that we need to have a look at, because we've always talked about the challenge of line managers for internal communicators. And I think they have a very difficult role of being that conduit quite often between their team and the center and all of those different bits and pieces. But we do tend to promote people that, you know, can really good at making widgets into being the head of a team of making widgets, and they're not the same skills. And I don't think we invest enough in that. You know, we don't invest in helping people understand their communication skills and the impact that can have on others. And I think that's really important. Certainly from other research I've already done, line managers' communication skills, you know, fundamental and definitely worth the investment.

Fundamental and worth the investment, but not measured, which is one of the things interesting that came up in the last episode, in episode 50, with Gillian French from Cubic Telecom, where she said, you know, we don't measure leaders against how good they are at that people leader stuff. We still measure people against KPIs and the number of cases they've closed and the number, you know, the amount of turnover they've increased by, or, you know, whatever the measures are, but it's never about, you know, the people stuff. You know, never in the world has anybody ever gone to a board meeting and the board has said, listen, we don't wanna talk about the numbers today. Let's just talk about the numbers of people that in the organization you've brought through and promoted over the course of the past 3 months. That's a conversation that's never happened.

It's not. And I blogged, which must be about 6 years ago now, I'm going to have to dig it out, about the fact that until analysts and shareholders start asking about employee engagement and how people feel at work, it's not going to shift. They are the people that I want to see taking an interest in it, and understanding it, and talking about it, and bringing that conversation into the boardroom. I think without it coming from them, I think in some organizations, it won't really change.

Yeah, I agree. I fundamentally agree. Let me go back to near the very top of the conversation, Jenny, for one final question, because I'm really conscious of time. You're obviously looking at and working with lots and lots of different clients in lots of different sectors from 7,000 to 90,000 people. Have you got an example or two of things that you've seen those companies do really well to maintain connection with their people over the past kind of 6 or 8 months as we've gone through this this whole madness of COVID and remote working and everything else?

Um, so yeah, there's a couple of things, and a lot of it is linked to technology, and I think that's just the nature of kind of where we are this year. So being able, you know, if I look at the team of sort of 7, um, you know, they are in the fitness industry, so their year has been incredibly challenging because of everything that's gone on. But their ability to move quickly and stay connected in different ways is what's been really great. So we use Slack as the communication channel, which is hugely helpful. As soon as the pandemic hit, we moved to WhatsApp because we needed that immediacy of being able to connect. What that's done is actually, I believe, kind of bonded the team a bit more because you're all kind of in something together. And as good as Slack is and as helpful as that is, when you're having to run, you know, gym classes on Zoom and talking about somebody who's got an injury and different, you know, so much going backwards and forwards, having that immediate connection has been really helpful, and you can see now that there's a stronger team on the back of it. There's definitely a better bond between everybody. There's not a good crisis to do that anyway, but I think that switch to having a communication channel that's more immediate, I think, is much better. Where we look at some of the bigger organisations, the things that they've been looking at is definitely more around the wellbeing side of things, so making sure people have the kind of opportunity to focus more on well-being. And I think that's been something that's been really good to see, that it's not just about the strategy, it's not just about this, it's about how you kind of connect. But also again, using technology, so using things like apps in order to get people news. And that's more about pushing out news, that's not so much about helping people be connected and work together, that's more about we need to get people information quickly, we need to make sure people have access to that. And that's And that's been the change, is making sure that everyone has access to that and that it's pushed out in a way that is accessible to everybody.

And what I love about this, if there is a silver lining on the cloud, which I actually believe there is, I actually think there's lots of silver linings on many of the clouds that have come over the past 8 months. But I think one of the big things for me is that we are now trying things and doing things that we would never have tried or done before, but we've done it and we've seen they work and we'll probably end up keeping them. And I hate the term, burning platform. But that's been kind of, you know, burning platform and kind of an oil rig type burning platform scenario. That's what this has been. And I think it's really helped people to see that actually, the art of the possible, there are different ways we can do things and, and different ways we can bring people on a journey. Hugely.

Such opportunity. And I said that, I said that back in March, and I've said it probably every month since, the opportunity this year brings is huge. And I would just encourage people to grab that with both hands. You've got access to people that you might not have had access to before. You've probably had all of the issues of budgets taken away. That opportunity to do something is something to absolutely be grabbed with both hands because it won't come up again.

And I think on that brilliantly positive note, which is funny because we've been so dour through the rest of the 45 minutes as we've been chatting Um, I think we will leave it there. Listen, Jenny, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Thank you for having me.

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