58 | Diversity, Equity & Inclusion with The Calm Edged Rebels

Welcome to the Inspiring Change podcast, where I talk to leaders about internal communications, engagement, leadership, and the role they all play in creating amazing cultures.

My question out to organisations who are not embracing diversity, equity, and inclusion is, if you don't, you're going to go. In 5 years, in 10 years, you will not exist.

There's no escaping from that. That is fact. You will make time for the things that are important, otherwise you'll just make excuses.

The leaders who are successful in this are the ones who think, do you know what, what have I got to lose? Let me just do this.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change podcast with me, Scott McInnes. You know, it's funny that over the past couple of years we've seen during the whole time of more recently COVID a really disproportionate impact on minority groups around the world. We've seen a dramatic increase also in the volume of employee voice around issues like Black Lives Matter, MeToo, Time's Up, and all of that is almost moving into the space of employee activism where people in organizations are really, really truly standing up and having the bravery to stand up for what they believe in, which I think is amazing. You know, when you take things like Google or organizations like Google where 20,000 people stood up last year and staged a global walkout all around the world about the company's alleged handling of a sexual harassment claim, that is incredible. And probably if I asked you to name the company that had done that, probably Google wouldn't be the one that jumped to top of mind. It would've been a bank or it would've been an older maybe organization instead, but there we go, surprising. You know, and I think for me what that shows is that, you know, organizations are becoming increasingly more likely to be called out for not addressing issues that are affecting them, for not taking them head on, you know? And that, when you roll that on, means that the pressure's on for organizations to really start to think about, and put diversity and inclusion front and center in their organizations and in their culture. Because, you know, for me, being able to create more psychologically safe, diverse, equitable, and inclusive cultures is good for the people in organizations. And as a result of that, brilliant for the organizations in terms of success, productivity. We've got the sustainability agenda now, and investors looking at organizations that are much, much more focused on the area of particularly social sustainability and start to think about the whole DEI agenda. I think regardless of your gender, your skin color, your sexual orientation, for me it's all about diversity of thinking. It's about how can we get better thinking into organizations and create places that people really, really want to be. But of course, the world is fast changing. We had D&I, we've now got, with the addition of equity, we've now got EDI or DEI, depending on which way you look at it. LGBT has become LGBTQ. To plus, to LGBTQIA+. So I think keeping up with it often can be really, really hard. And I also wonder if people who aren't in a minority group, those of us like me who have previously jokingly or perhaps unkindly been described as pale, male, and stale, are becoming increasingly anxious and concerned about having conversations in work because they're worried about putting their foot in it, about saying something wrong, about not having, about trying to have the right intention, but just saying the wrong thing or saying something that suddenly offends. And so, they maybe do nothing. So, I'm really excited today to have on the Calm Edged Rebels. They're not a rock group. They are a band of merry professionals, Trudy Lewis, Jenny Field, and Advita Patel, who have a real passion for internal comms and have their own podcast. So, I am really excited to maybe explore some of those issues today in this episode. Episode. So, ladies, you are all very welcome.

Great to be here. Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks. Listen, why don't we kick off? It'd be really interesting, I think, for listeners just to hear maybe a quick minute or two on each of you, just to hear a little about you, about your journeys, and about what you do now. Advita, why don't you go first? You're top left on my screen.

Thank you, Scott, and it's a pleasure to be here today. So, I own an internal communications and employee experience consultancy called CommsRebel, which I started in January 2020. So, for unbeknown to me, I didn't know obviously, like many folks that would hit the year of pandemic. So it's been a very interesting journey for me. And when I set up CommsRebel, I reached out to Priya Bates, who's my co-founder for A Leader Like Me. And we decided to set up A Leader Like Me based on the conversation that I had with Priya in January, 'cause I asked her to be my mentor to help me navigate the world of consultancy. 'Cause as a South Asian woman, Asian woman, Priya, who's based in Canada. There are not many people who look like me in the industry who work within internal communications, so I very courageously, I would say, asked Priya to be my mentor. In that first conversation, we decided to set up a Leader Like Me, which is a group for underrepresented people, particularly women of color who want to progress further in their careers. So this conversation that we're having today is of great interest to me because it's been my world for a number of years, but particularly in the last, you know, 18 months or so. And it's something that I think you're 100% spot on there, Scott. You know, I think it is the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, because I think that's very important, even more so than diversity at times. It's critical that people, the majority of the folks in businesses like yourself, you know, Scott, white men who are often the leaders in these organizations, they often are the decision makers, right, in some of these businesses. And I think it's important that they feel comfortable enough to ask the questions and be, have the, and feel empowered to ask the questions as well and not feel scared or worried or think they're gonna put their foot in it. As you said, so a leader like me, as well as helping women of color from various industries, not only comms, to be fair, we've expanded it outside of various industries. We also help allies and people who want to learn more about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging as well. Hence why we do our conferences on, on an annual basis and encourage sponsors and allies to be a part of that, which is why we've got Diversity in Action on the 23rd of March. And I do feel, and Priya and I talk about this, and I spoke to Trudy and Jenny about this previously, but I do think that internal comms has quite a special part to play in helping to communicate the way we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion in businesses, because language is really powerful, and we're often the pen holders, right, for some of the comms that goes out in businesses. So I do think it goes hand in hand. So hopefully today will be a really interesting conversation.

Brilliant. No, absolutely. And that whole idea of allyship is something that would be really interesting to hopefully come back to later. I think otherwise you tend to be perhaps shouting in an echo chamber when it's people of the same type or beliefs or backgrounds all talking to each other. Let's talk definitely about internal comms, and I will put a plug for your event into the show notes afterwards as well. So we'll make sure that happens. Trudy, hello there.

Hi, how are you? Thanks, Scott, um, it's good to be here. Um, I'm a communication consultant and executive coach, and I run a company called Colineo, um, that covers that, basically looking at how leaders and professionals can become more, um, engaging, be better at communicating. And I'm developing a model called EDGE, which is Engaging Dynamic genuine and effective, and with the premise that those are attributes that need to be built into people so that they become leaders that can communicate well. I've done that now for a few years, so I started working for myself as a contractor to start with and then transitioned to doing something more like a business, and used to working permanent work within IC before that, so I've had probably 20+ years of internal comms experience working with teams and projects around internal communications. So for me, diversity is quite a big topic. I like to look at myself as someone who works in the background to see if we can make changes and switch things around. I do see that it's probably one of the most important things that we need to keep a conversation going on about. We can't shut the conversation down because of any uncomfortableness or a lack of understanding of what we should be doing. I think we have to keep going. We have to help organisations to get their head around it and to create some real action rather than just the conversation. I was saying to somebody the other day— I'm on a committee that talks about diversity as well, and one of the things we were talking about is that movement away from just creating campaigns and actually doing things that matter, things that will make a difference. So I guess for me, I think the importance at the moment is for us to continue that conversation and see where we can create some action.

Brilliant. And I think, you know, for me, it has, you know, when you think about some of the work that in internal comms we do, particularly around more recently, like employee engagement, you know, that we've always talked forever about employee engagement, that it shouldn't be a thing. It shouldn't be a campaign, it shouldn't be an initiative, it should just be how we do things. And that for me is the same as diversity and inclusion. It's just the way that we do things. So we don't need to have, shouldn't need to have D&I posters and we shouldn't need to have initiatives. It should just be the norm, but it isn't. And we're going to talk about that in a few minutes. Jenny, no stranger to the show. Hello.

Hello.

Thank you for having us. Lovely to be here and be on the other side of doing a podcast for a change. So I'm Jenny Field. I've worked in communications for around 20 years. I run Redefining Communications, which is a consultancy that helps organizations be less chaotic by helping them understand the power of communication. So I, I specialize really in diagnosing the root cause of issues that are causing that chaos and helping organizations work through that. Um, I'm always opinionated and can often be found with Scott on Clubhouse talking about anything to do with communications, but I also have written a book about Influential Internal Communication, and I talk quite a lot about the model that I use to help organisations diagnose what's going on. So that's a little bit about me. In terms of the, the DEI space, EDI space, and belonging, I totally get where you're coming from, Scott, in some of those challenges. And, you know, being a white woman, having the friendship of Adveeta and Trudy has allowed me a really safe space to ask questions, to kind of catch me before I might fall, even with the best intentions, but also I've spent a lot of time reading, learning, listening over the course of the last 18 months and educating myself in terms of some of the things that I can see are just perpetuated by society. I've had difficult conversations with family that can continue in terms of generational differences, but I do think that there is a lot of work still to do in organisations, and I can see really specific traps that we could easily fall into. And especially as a white person, I can see that being a trap that we could fall into a lot. So there's lots to do, and I'm very privileged to be such good friends with Advita and Trudy and kind of learn from them as I continue as well.

Brilliant. Thank you. And I love the idea of a safe space. And I think if there were more safe spaces in organizations to let people— it was Advita who said before we started recording, you know, sometimes you have to just make the mistakes. Sometimes you have to just put your foot in it. Sometimes you have to just say, the thing and then go, I'm really sorry, that's not how I meant it, but I get how maybe you took that and I apologize. And then you move on and you learn from your mistakes. My granny, as I've often said on this podcast, used to say to me, son, when I was a kid, you just opened your mouth and let your belly rumble. And I do still suffer a little of that, I have to say. So maybe sometimes just getting it out there and having the brave conversation is the thing to do. So thank you, Jenny. That's great. Let me kick off with this very quickly in a sentence or two. I'd like to know what DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, means to each of you and why you think it's important. Advita, let's kick off with you again.

For me, you know, I mean, that's a really big question, Scott, but for me, you know, and I'm always accused— well, I accuse myself, I should say, for oversimplifying things, but for me, diversity, equity, and inclusion is about not being treated differently just because you're underrepresented in some way, right? So you, you get equal opportunity and you get equal chance as everybody else, and you're not being treated differently because of your gender or your sexuality or the color of your skin or your disability. And everybody gets a fair chance, an opportunity. And then, you know, there's various theories out there, but for me, that's what definitely what diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging— and I said that at the beginning— means. So everybody should feel like they can. And we say it, don't we? We say it all the time. Well, you need to to bring your whole self into business. There's a lot of people talk about that, but what does that actually mean? And do organizations truly mean that? Because if you truly mean that, then what are you doing to make sure that person can bring their whole self and belong and feel included in the conversations that are taking place in the business? From the very tactical to the, you know, there's very oppressive systems that have been put in place for hundreds of years that doesn't allow certain underrepresented folks to progress just because of the language that they use or the processes that they have in place. So for me, it's definitely about being able to have that equal opportunity regardless of what underrepresented status you might have.

Brilliant, thank you. Trudy?

Yeah, I think it's hugely important, and I said some of that before. One is, if you, within your organisation, if you don't have diversity, it's it does impact your bottom line, it does impact how you're performing with your professionals. And also the fact for me that we're all one, we're really part of the human race, we're human. And that's what comes first. And always for me, it's that, you know, we lose the focus on that and focus on color and where people come from and difference. And I think that we have to do that. I love what Advita says about belonging, because that is a huge part of it for me. The fact that we want people to be inclusive, we want people to, to feel that they belong somewhere, and for many who are diverse, that's not their experience, when actually it should be. And if we're asking people to do a certain job, you know, there's working in the same way, then I don't see why anybody of any diversity should feel lesser I think, and that's a big thing for me, that, you know, we should never make each other feel less than human, less than worthy of being treated well, of being included, of being just looked at as if to say we are just as good as anybody else. And I think that's, that for me kind of sums up when we talk about equality and inclusion and diversity, We shouldn't, frankly speaking, we shouldn't be having such a conversation. It should be, do you know what, Advita's talented, or this one's really talented. I want that person in my organization. It's not, oh, I don't like the color of her skin, or I don't like how her name's spelled, or whatever. It should always be, you know, based on who we are as people.

And what you do and the value you can bring.

Absolutely.

Yeah, definitely.

Jenny. Everything that Advaita and Trudi have said, really, but I think, you know, when I think about organisations and why it's important, it's because I say this a lot, organisations are people. You know, without people, organisations don't really exist, and the focus in the last year has played so heavily on the human and people side that that's why it's important. I would hate anyone anywhere to feel that they couldn't speak up or they weren't worthy of having a voice. That makes, that makes me really uncomfortable. And I'm reading The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson at the moment, which is a brilliant book about psychological safety. And she said in it, and I was reading it at the weekend, that you can't see someone who doesn't speak up. You know, it's the most unseen thing in an organization, and it's really stayed with me. And that's why it's important, because you don't know that it's happening and you don't know that people don't feel safe enough to speak up. And the detriment of that, we know, is, is really bad. But it's the fact that it's so unseen that is why it's important. And that's why we have to have these conversations until it becomes seen. Hmm.

Hmm.

So just thinking about— so just building on that thought, Jenny, maybe to cut back to something that Trudi said about, you know, we shouldn't be having the conversation. Why is this still a thing? Surely it should just be part and parcel of how we do things. It shouldn't matter that you're Black or South Indian or disabled or gay or male or female or whatever you are. Why are we still having this conversation? Why is it still a thing?

So I think part of it is generational, and I hate talking about generations because I don't really believe in generational theory, but there is definitely a a cultural generational thing of what was accepted years ago. I can have conversations with my grandmother that involves language that you would just never hear today. So I think there is the legacy of that that is part of it. I also think there is a laziness on the side of white people. And I say that as a white person who's been reading, who now understands the importance and not the importance, but I understand the meaning behind cultural appropriation. I understand why it's not okay to just group people of colour under the word BAME, which we tend to do in the UK. I understand so much more. I don't know why I didn't understand this before when I know that this has been a conversation for a long time. I don't know why I didn't read those books. Maybe those books weren't there, maybe there were others and I just was not in my sphere of noise. But I think we are inherently lazy, and I think things like the George Floyd murder in the US, the Black Lives Matter protests, have made us want to take action. Not enough, because I still think there is a laziness of, you know, we'll just ask people that we know to come and get involved with this, or we'll just, you know, do it the way we've always done it because it's difficult to change. So that's why I think it's still a conversation.

Trudi, Advita.

I have this interesting quote by Jane Elliott, an educator, and she says, "You're not born a racist, you are born into a racist society, and like anything else, if you can learn it, you can unlearn it. But some people choose not to unlearn it because they're afraid they'll lose power if they share with other people." We are We are afraid of sharing power, and that's what it's all about. And from her perspective as an educator, that's what she felt. And I do think that some of it is tied into the fact that, and I don't think this is a blatant thinking, I think this is something that's so deep-seated in most people that they don't realize that actually it's how they behave, and it's hard to come out of that behavior. It's how maybe they were taught how to behave. And it's, you know, it will take somebody like Jenny, who made the decision to learn more about this that makes a difference for her and for others who will do similar things. But there are many who won't because they're— historically, they're used to living a certain way. Their culture was a certain way. And it's not necessarily for them about power, you know, I want to have power over somebody. But it could very well be that, you know, that's just how we've always done it, so why should I change? So I think with organizations that it becomes very challenging for those in leadership to get their head around what needs to happen, how they need to change it, how much attention they must give to it, because many don't equate it to their bottom line. They still don't quite see that it's a priority as opposed to, you know, something that we can leave aside. It's a little bit like comms, because they look at comms as if to say, we won't give it much budget because it's not that important. Yeah, they'll manage. So, um, uh, they'll be creative, that's it. Um, and, and it's, in a sense, it's treated in a similar way that, you know, it can be pushed aside. We can deal with it later. It will, it will eventually go away if we don't pay too much attention to it. And I think You know, and that's why I'm so happy that, say, for instance, within gender, when it— especially when it comes to women, we've been— I think women have been really pushing forward to, to make a difference in that sphere, you know, to say, yeah, you have to pay attention. We have to make a difference to how many women there are on boards and in senior leadership, you know. I think we have to keep doing the same thing, keep making noise.

Yeah. And do you think that because I even feel a bit using the word racism because I just don't like the word, but it's obviously there. I wonder in organizations, because it maybe is a little more latent or maybe it's embedded now in just bias, does that make it harder to solve? Is that why we're keeping having the conversation, do you think, Advita?

Yeah, I think bias plays a massive part, Scott, because we're all biased, you know, regardless of what color our skin is or what gender we are and sexuality We've all got that bias, and let's admit it, we're all comfortable with people that we align to, right? And align with our values and align with our beliefs and look like us and gone to the same school as us and the same upbringing. Most of us are pretty comfortable in that space. And to ask and go out, you know, to ask the questions of somebody that's unfamiliar to you or to understand if they're gonna be supportive of what you are trying to achieve, and as Jenny's point, it's laziness 'cause they don't wanna put that extra effort in. And, you know, some organizations, have got a lot, you know, the bottom line, you know, if you look at the kind of profit drive and all that, it's doing okay without diversity. So they're thinking, well, you know, if it ain't broke, why fix it? What's the big issue here? I'm not racist, I've got a Black friend, or I'm not, you know, I'm not homophobic because I've got a gay friend. And, you know, I've read a lot around it's not enough to say I'm not racist, you have to be actively anti-racist. Yeah, I read that To make an impact, right? So you stand up for those voices that Jennie spoke about that don't have an opportunity to speak up because they feel like they don't belong or they're not bringing value. So if you recognise that in the organisation that you're in, that there are people in your organisation that are not getting an opportunity to be heard because people's bias are not allowing them to be heard— because we do that sometimes, you know, the louder voices will speak up, the men in the room generally are the ones to speak first, You know, it takes those allies to step into that space and go and be courageous in doing this as well, you know, putting themselves out there and going, hang on a minute, can we just take a step back a minute and just like, let's listen to what Trudy has to say or what Jenny has to say, because I want to hear from her and I think it's really important. And as soon as that starts becoming the norm of everyday practice in the business, you know, we don't have a meeting if there's not fair representation, we don't have an interview panel if there's not fair representation, we don't, you know, we make sure that our job descriptions are inclusive for the that we use. We don't speak at conferences if it's an all-white speaker lineup or there's no representation. Those tiny changes that you make in your policies that you put together can make a massive difference to the way people look at diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And I fought, you know, and I would say I'm using that word purposefully because it feels like a fight at times when I'm kind of speaking out about internal comms conferences. And the reason I get so passionate about internal comms is because we have the power to enable change in some organisations. And if our own industry is not doing that, and if our own industry has a speaker lineup that are all visibly white people, white folks speaking, what does that say about the work that we're doing in the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging space? Does it say, you know, and this is why I will call them out and say, out of 30 speakers, you're telling me you can't find representation across entire industry to speak up this this event and the silence is deafening, Scott. You know, when I put it out there, people are very like, it's tumbleweed, you know, I'll get the odd like, I'll get some private messages. People get very defensive. I had a few folks who were speaking at these events who messaged me privately, getting very defensive about them speaking, you know, like, I sympathize with you. You know, we're not asking for sympathy, we're asking for your support. We're asking for people to step into that space and ask the questions. And I think that's what's going on in organizations. We shouldn't have to have this conversation in 2021. Like, we shouldn't have to have the conversation about women having 50% of board presence, right? We've been talking about this since, God, 100, 120 years about women's rights and all that, and yet we're still having this conversation that women don't have fair representation in boardrooms. And, you know, the latest PwC report shows that we've gone back in the last, you know, 3 years. We've actually gone back 3 years and we're not going as quickly as we should be going. And if women are not fairly represented, then people like me, a woman of color, I lose hope in that, right? Because if we can't even have the 50% of the population represented properly, then what hope do I have as somebody who belongs in the 14-15% of the population to have a fair access and fair opportunity in certain organizations when women in general don't And I just think we've got to that point where we probably need to, as Trudy's point right at the beginning, we need to stop talking and we need to start taking action. And we've got hundreds of reports demonstrating that diversity can actually make a huge impact in a business in terms of performance and profitability and finance. And I just don't think we need any more reports to tell us that. I think what we do need is leaders to step into that space and go, enough is enough. What are we doing? And I want tangible actions.

Yeah, yeah. And I think action is the word. And, you know, to your point, Advita, about calling out conference organizers for all-white panels, hands up, I was called out on Tuesday on this International Women's Day for having 26 white faces, all women, all female, from all walks of life in all countries. One was gay, one had come through breast cancer, one had, you know, one had mental health problems. Not that we discussed those things in the pods, but to me, that was a diverse group of people, but lacked the diversity of color and background and ethnicity. So that's definitely something that I've taken on board as well. And it wasn't done with any malice and it wasn't done with any sign of, well, I'm just not gonna have anybody who's not white on the podcast. It was actually mostly driven by the fact that most of them I know and they're from here in Ireland and we just don't have, I'm expecting a barrage of email, we just don't have many Black senior internal comms people in Ireland or in fact, in the industry. And we've all alluded to that earlier on. But it's definitely something that's a work in progress. But I do definitely take your point that it is something that we have to be more proactive and more mindful of.

Exactly. And I think, and you're right, Scott, there's no malice intended in any of this. I generally don't think that— I should say, I believe that 99% of people don't intend any malice and is who you know when you network and all that. And that's That's absolutely fine. And I think what I would expect, you know, somebody has called it El Scott, so for you to expand your network and your reach and ask the question. So someone's raised it, you've gone, "Oh, sugar, I didn't notice, 'cause I've been looking at diversity of thought, you know, and I've made sure that I've got gender balance and that's, you know, important. However, going forward over the next few episodes, I'm gonna expand my reach and I'm gonna ask people, can you recommend me some folks that may not be in my network? You know, what can we do to kind of get some diversity of color?" on here and different races, and that's what we ask for, you know. And I do, I do think that nobody— I hope nobody ever means to be, you know, with intent just to have an all-white speaker list. I think it is who you know generally that takes the spots.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. Let's talk a little bit about intent, and let's talk a little bit about lip service, because we all saw Back around the Black Lives Matter piece, we all saw lots of organizations kind of blacking out their various social media pages and that kind of thing. And exactly to the point that was made earlier on about bringing your whole self, it's very important that people feel as though they can bring their whole selves to work. We do these things, they're very public, but we don't actually put in place the opportunity for that to happen day to day. So I wonder, you know, are organizations generally still paying lip service to the whole DEI, EDI agenda, or are they not? What have you seen in your experience, Trudy?

I think they are paying lip service. I think it's easier for them to do that because, you know, it doesn't take as much thinking and to working something out if you just, you know, say the right things, you know, make sure publicly you make it sound as if to say you're doing something or that you make it sound as if to say this thing is important, but you're not necessarily backing that up with any real activity. And, you know, you mentioned the word opportunity, and I think that's a huge part of this in that it's the opportunity that you provide across the board. So instead of it being only opportunity for some or excluding some because of bias or because of whatever, you know, there's whatever reason you have excluded people, you make sure that the opportunity is fair. And when we talk about equity, that's kind of what we're talking about, making sure that things are fair so everybody can get moved up, you know, have a look at your leadership team. How many people, how much diversity is in your leadership team? How much diversity is in other areas of your business? Does something need to be done? You know, you hear of things like, oh, well, we just can't find the people, but it's because, is it because you've been judging them based on your bias? Is that why you can't find people? Because actually people are out there, people are out there who are into PR, who are into comms, who are into various areas. I worked internally for a long time and didn't get a promotion. And I would go for promotions, but I would never get promotion. Now I can't hand on heart say, oh, it's only because of my color, but it certainly felt like it because I never got that promotion. And so as a result, Could I have become a senior leader within comms?

No.

See, you wouldn't have found me, unless I'd, you know, you'd found, obviously because I've moved out of that. And that was one of the reasons why I stepped out and decided to start my own business because, you know, I realized I wasn't gonna go very much further. And if you've got scenarios like that happening in your organization and you decide that you're not gonna do anything about it, then you are definitely stuck in the lip service category.

Brilliant, thank you, Trudy. Jenny?

I think there is a bit of lip service, and actually on International Women's Day, Sharon O'Dea, who is fairly prevalent on Twitter, was sharing statements from companies about International Women's Day and then their actual gender pay gap, which— and she basically just kept doing it of like, this is what they've said today and this is the reality, and this is what they've said and this is the reality. And it was an excellent thread to just highlight lip service at its best. And I thought it was so interesting seeing people doing that and talking about how important women were. But actually, I think the one that stuck out and I, I think it was UBS, but I can't be sure, was something like a 65% difference. It's astonishing. And I thought this is, you know, from a purely PR perspective, you know, an ethical PR perspective, you verify like the stuff that you've got going on in your house before you put a statement out. Like, it's just, you know, the basics. And I think that's where we see the lip service a lot. I do think we see it generally though in leadership. So even, you know, there's a blog on my site about the say-do gap. This is the same thing for me. It's prevalent in every aspect of business. I remember talking to a client who would say, my door's always open, people can always come and talk to me, my door's always open. I said, but is it though? Like, how often are you actually here? First of all, pre-pandemic, actually here, probably about once a month. Brilliant. So your door's open theoretically once a month when you're here, when actually it isn't. Because when you're here, you're here to have meetings and talk to people. So you can't say stuff like that because you're saying it and creating an environment or alluding to something that you can't live up to because you've set yourself up to fail, which then makes people not trust you because there's an integrity issue there because of that say-do gap.. For me, it's the same in this kind of space as well. I don't think it's specific to equality, diversity, belonging, inclusion. I think it's epidemic in organisations generally, and I think that just comes back to us being accountable, and it comes back to priorities as well for me. I talked about it being kind of a laziness earlier in terms of not driving that change. It's about priorities. You know, you make time for the things that are a priority for you. Anyone that's who's heard me talk before knows I talk about busy being a myth. You make time for the things that are important. If you genuinely believe that diversity, equality, inclusion, belonging are important to you and your organisation, then you will make the time to read and listen and understand, and you will make the time to take action. And if you're not, then you just won't make time for it. There's no escaping from that. That is fact. You will make time for the things that are important, otherwise you'll just make excuses.—

So let's move the conversation on slightly and think about the organizations that aren't just paying it lip service, the organizations that are putting EDI, DEI, I'm going to just pick one of them. I'm going to pick DEI rather than saying them both all the time. I'm just going with DEI. That's what I'm going to go with from now on. Okay. Just so we all know. What's the benefits? So there are definitely organizations that we all know who are taking the DEI agenda really seriously, who are really putting it in play, who do have it at the very core of their culture and have a really strong focus on it. What are the business benefits for those organizations? So, for those organizations that are thinking, well, I don't have time to do that, I'm not prioritizing that, what are they missing, do you think, Trudy?

I think there's a lot of advantage, not just performance and financials, although the report that I keep mentioning, talking about is a McKinsey report that they produce probably every few years. So the first one was 2015, and in 2015 that report said that there are many benefits when it comes to performance and financials when it comes to including diversity. And that, you know, obviously the thought was, oh, we don't know if that's going to progress. Well, it has progressed. So the report in 2020 shows that it's gotten even more so important. So, you know, that for me would be a fundamental bottom line. You really want to get that in there as well. But there's also that part of diversity of thought. So I worked somewhere recently where the CEO, he chose to do something very, very different. He invited a graduate, a Black a Black graduate who was, you know, one of these go-getters. He's very, very dynamic, to become his kind of exec assistant, or like you'd call it, chief exec alongside him, to work with him, to do some reverse mentoring, to help him, because he genuinely admitted, you know, I don't know anything about young people. I don't know anything about this particular generation. Now, he didn't pick him because of his color. He picked him because he fitted the bill. And he wanted to know more about Gen Z. He wanted to know about the next generation. And he was totally, totally embracing this young man who felt incredibly supported because of this. Now, there's no doubt in my mind that that young man will become a CEO one day simply because he's had that access. And I think where you see organizations that take the time to do that, now suddenly, You've got a loyal employee, so loyalty is one of those things that will definitely be generated. You've got people who are moving up in the organization. Your retention will stop bleeding because people will stop leaving the organization because they're not getting any, making any progress. There are many times that I think part of the reason why we can't find senior internal comms people is because most of them have stepped out and started their own business because of the very reason we're talking about right now. So, you know, if you look at it from that perspective, for the organization, retention is very expensive. It's a big thing for companies. You've got a better values proposition if you're inclusive, and it just builds on everything about the purpose and the advancement of the company. I think if you're not going to be inclusive, inclusive, eventually you won't survive.

Advita, anything to add on the benefits from your perspective or experiences?

I mean, you know, a little bit of frankness here, Scott. You know, no one can accuse me not to be frank. I just don't think organizations can afford not to anymore. You spoke earlier at the beginning about Google, 20,000 employees walking out, you know, with their feet. It isn't because— I'm not surprised that that happened because Google I would've been surprised if they hadn't done so. Google attracts very young, active, socially responsible people who want, who go for more than bonuses, payment, salary. They go for purpose, right? And they wanna make a difference. And I see a difference now when I look at my friends' children who are, you know, young adults, you know, heading into young adults. They are like no nonsense, you know, they, when I tell them stories about some of the experiences I've had in some organizations, like, what? There's no way I'm going to do that. There's no way I would put up with that kind of nonsense. I'm just going to go and build my own. And that's exactly what they're doing. So people are now creating— this is why we've got so many more entrepreneurs than we've ever had before, because people are not putting up with that kind of nonsense, basically. So when you get 18 to 21-year-olds or 24-year-olds, whatever, going to organizations, the, the behavior of leaders in the organization is poor, they're like like, you know, two fingers up, I'm out of here. I'm gonna create a company to compete with your company and I'm gonna ruin you and I'm gonna take over. And that's exactly what's gonna happen. In my generation, we're a little bit more softer, I suppose. And we still wanted to make a difference. We still stood up for our rights and we didn't put up with the nonsense our parents put up with. You know, my mum and dad, when they used to work in offices and stuff like that, they had to put up with language, you know, poor language and being excluded and not being invited out to nights out and not being asked and having to put up with applications that said no Blacks, no Irish, no dogs, you know, that kind of stuff. And that, you know, if you look at the transition, then I come in as a first-generation born person in the UK, a woman born in, you know, in the early '80s. I was a bit like, well, no way I'm going to work for organizations that are racist or sexist or homophobic. But I still, you know, you're still a little bit nervous about it, whereas the generation coming in, two generations below me, they're just like, I'm off. And my question out to organizations who are not embracing diversity, equity, and inclusion is, if you don't, you're gonna go. In 5 years, in 10 years, you will not exist. You just won't. I mean, just look at the big giants that have gone in recent years. And you know, if you look at the way they worked and their behaviors is because they didn't move quick enough with the times. They was paying lip service. They didn't have representation at the board with gender, sexuality, and race. And you have to be able to move quick enough with the pace of what people want. You've got to represent your publics, right? And the people that you're serving. And when you're not doing that, you're losing out on massive opportunity on diversity of thought and different people, and you're losing talent. So kids these days don't want— they don't— they're not settled down with big mortgages. They don't have that anymore. You know, before you— even when I was in my early 20s, my parents were like, you need to find a house and get a mortgage. And, you know, when you were set in that town, and you had no option but to stay in that town 'cause you had to pay a mortgage. Now with the increase of technology and the global kind of reach getting smaller, I could work for a company based in San Francisco from my home in Manchester because it doesn't really matter. 'Cause one thing the pandemic here has taught us is that you don't need to be visible in person to make an impact. You can do it from the comfort of your own home and still make an impact and you've got choices. And that generation, because they're not getting mortgages 'cause house prices are ridiculous and they can't get on the property ladder, They've got flexibility now on where they work, what they're doing, and where they give their time. And they value their time and value and are more invested in their purpose and their beliefs, much more than we've ever been so before. So those organizations who are not embracing diversity, equity, and inclusion, they will go. I guarantee it. I can list— I'm not going to name them on your podcast, just in case, but I could, you know, we could put them in an envelope. We could all write 10 names on an on an envelope and then come back to it in like a little time capsule and come back to it in 10 years' time. And I can guarantee those organizations who we know who are not great at diversity, equity, inclusion will have gone. So they can't afford not to.

So I definitely think what's really interesting, Advaita, is that it's not just about the DEI agenda helping companies to be more successful, it's actually also helping them them weirdly to not be unsuccessful in the future because all that talent is leaving, is hemorrhaging out the door. And what we're seeing is then those people going off to set up potentially competitor organizations, which is really interesting. Okay, so how do we stop that happening? What are some of the really practical things that— because we've seen West African Food Day and we've seen International Women's Day, and we've seen all these days. Trudy's now laughing because she's from the Caribbean. That must be a thing, surely, because it's good food, right? From the Caribbean.

It's fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, that must be. If it's not a thing, it should be a thing. But we have all these days, and maybe they are lip service, and maybe blacking up our Instagram page is lip service. There must be some practical things that organizations can and should be doing in order to build workforces and workplaces and cultures that really do celebrate and benefit from the whole area of being, you know, of more DEI, surely, Jenny?

So, Advita and Trudy will have a lot more to say on this than I do. For me, it comes back to taking action in your organization and moving things forward. So, if I take Advita's conference, for example, Diversity in Action, You know, we're expecting to see loads of people sign up for that. It's deliberately costed at a price point where it's accessible, yet people aren't signing up for that. It's the only conference I know that is about how to take action and how to make real change. And the fact that we don't see people kind of, you know, fighting down the door, for me, is just— is a shame and a surprise. And I can understand that slumping exhaustion feeling that I know is fair. Felt in parts of the industry. I think that's the piece for me, is making time for it and actually doing things that will educate you in order to make the change. To not do another report, but to actually attend conferences, learn, and then implement that in your organisation. It's not about unconscious bias training, it's about putting actual tangible things in place that make a difference. I know an organisation that now has has interviews with new potential new starters, they have both a man and a woman present for that. You know, that might not be enough in terms of, you know, what's required from a gender perspective, but that's a step forward that it's been recognized that actually, do you know what, we need to have two people interviewing and they need to be, you know, different people to be able to make that change. That's what we need to see is, okay, what are the processes and things that are changing as a result of that? If you've got it and it's got to a place of real toxicity in your organization and you have a culture that is not racist but not anti-racist, and you've got a culture of maybe microaggressions and things like that, you've got to invest in training and development, you've got to invest in upskilling people. Now, we might say that you shouldn't need to do training and development on how not to be a horrible human being, but you have to have training and development to understand how you come across to other people. It's why I do training in communication skills. We have to learn how to communicate effectively to build good relationships to make work better. So those are the things that I think would really help, but I know that the other ladies will have more to say.

Advita, from a practical perspective, what have you seen organizations do, or what have you experienced that's really helped try and embed that whole idea, that thinking?

I think, you know, we mentioned it right at the start of this podcast, creating a safe environment for people to ask the questions.

Yeah.

And I think we just don't do that enough. And the reason, and this is for everybody who wants to learn and wants to understand a little bit more, and not having that fear or bashfulness asking uncomfortable questions. So if one thing, you know, if the only thing you do is to create a safe space for people to ask that question, then that's a start. You know, get that sorted, get those lunchtime sessions, Zoom calls, whatever works for you, but get somewhere, get a space where people can ask those questions and not have that fear of making mistakes. 'Cause if they do make a mistake, then they know they can go and learn a bit more about it. So definitely do that. And the other thing that I know Trudy talks about this a lot is be curious in other people. So if you haven't heard somebody speaking on a conference call like this, or you know, in an event, or someone is, you know, not visible as Jenni mentioned before, then go and check in on them and find out what's going on and be curious about them and understand what they want to, what is it about them and go outside of your reach, you know. So your network, it's great that you've got some great friends and that's brilliant, but look around your friendship circle, look around the boardroom table, and if you keep seeing the same faces, then make that contribution conscious effort to go and find the people in your organisation that you can have a conversation with in a very, you know, it's not the case of kind of going and saying, right, tell me, tell me everything about being a South Asian woman. It's not about that, because, you know, I mean, she could say that and see what happens.

I mean, tell me, tell me, tell me.

And you have amazing food as well. I must, it must be lunchtime because I'm all about the food right now.

So, you know, just, just be curious and go and be, be open to having those open and transparent conversations as well, definitely.

Brilliant, thank you. Trudy?

I mean, I agree 100% with both of Jenny and Advaita. For me, I think a really important thing is to make the time, to make some time to find out more about how your organization's working, what's really happening in your organization, and what needs to change. Because you could say a lot of the times, HR— I'm sorry, they will get upset with me, but HR will say, let's do a report. And the report will be good. It will throw up some stats, but then they've also got the idea of, oh, let's do a report that talks about felt need, you know, how people are feeling. And so, you know, they have those conversations, they pull out, you know, what's our experiences and what people are experiencing in the workplace and so on. That becomes a report. Now, the challenge with those reports, they're great to read, but they need to translate into something else. And so the only way you do that is by taking the time. So it's like with anything with insights. So Jenny does a diagnose thing where she looks at, well, what are the problems? From diagnosing the problem and looking at the insight, you then can say, right, how do I diagnose this? How do I kind of figure out what are the things that needs to happen? So, you get the insight, you might have it, there's loads of insight around the place, just do some research, but at the same time, it's what's the current culture of your organization and what needs to change? So, if we find that recruitment, our own recruiting, are only recruiting a certain type of person, what else could they be doing to make sure that recruitment is fair? And it's quite interesting, a lot of companies nowadays are saying, "Oh, we don't want to do unconscious bias training, we don't like it," and I'm thinking, Well, yeah, you might not like it, but your organization might need it. And you can't find that out until you do some evaluation. And so I think that's your starting point because you could go and say, you know, and I've had this, and I'm sure every internal communicator has had this where a boss says to you, "So what did Google do? Let's follow them." And you think, well, no, you can't follow another organization because every organization has its own culture. And it's really important, as far as I'm concerned, that you take the time to understand how, how you're going to fix this and how you're going to— what you're going to do.

Yeah. And look, I think whether you're talking about DEI, whether you're talking about leadership, whether you're talking about employee engagement, you know, we've seen hundreds of surveys and reports and everything else. But actually, it's the action that comes from the survey that's going to make the difference. And in fact, to ask people questions questions about this area or engagement or leadership or whatever and then not take action. Back to the point, I think it was Jenny made earlier on about that say-do gap. It does bring into question then your integrity. One thing I want to cover off before we finish up, we've got about 2 or 3 minutes left. One thing I want to talk about was a made-up word that I heard. There's nothing I like more than a made-up word. And today's made-up word was glocal.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So glocal, that it's all very well and good for an organization to have a global position global, maybe with a small g, a global position, an organization-wide position on a subject. Let's pick DEI because that's what we're talking about. But actually it's how it's implemented locally that makes all the difference. And for me, that is squarely, and we're piling more stuff on their shoulders, but that is squarely about leaders. That's squarely about leaders and how they interact with their teams because little percentage changes in every team across an organization, bits of percentages, across every team roll up to a really big change in an organization's culture, right? So, Advita, what do you think the role of leaders is and what would you like to be seeing leaders doing more or less of to try and build this muscle?

You know, 100% agree, Scott. And I say to folks who say to me, well, I'm just, I'm just a whatever and I'm just an admin or I'm just a line manager, I don't have control. You know, it's 100%, I say to everybody, you've got ripple effect, right? And if everybody does it at the same time, then you can create a big and one of the big things for me is holding each other accountable. So making sure as a leader you're holding each other accountable for the work that you're doing and the promises that you've made to each other and the organisation to be more aware of the work that you're doing around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, or employee engagement, or whatever your kind of big ticket items are, because I think we do fear, or your leaders fear, asking each other the same questions. So what are you doing, you know, Frank? Joanne, Mary, whatever, about this. And, you know, I noticed that this was happening, so let's have a conversation on how we can work together to address this solution. And it isn't about working on your own. It isn't. You know, this is, this is really important that anyone listening to this podcast understands that if you do feel alone and you feel like you've got nowhere to go, then reach out to any of us, you know, Trudy, Jenny, and myself, and we will happily support and direct you to the right people if we can't help. But don't ever think you have to do this on your own. And the same with leadership. Don't ever think you're on your own. Speak to your peers, hold each other accountable, and together you can create a big wave that will help others make that big, you know, the change that's needed in the organization.

Brilliant, thank you, Advita. Trudy, any thoughts on leadership and what leaders should be doing?

Leaders, first of all, they need to listen, but a really big thing for leaders is facing fear, and it's the fear of of this is something unknown. So even when you think about change management, you know, most leaders don't— we don't end up with successful change programs simply because leadership are a little bit afraid of being open, of the pushback, of some of the things that are going to kind of fly back at them if they do it. And I believe that the leaders who are successful in this are the ones who think think, do you know what? What have I got to lose? Let me just do this. The worst that can happen is that people accuse me of doing it wrongly, but at least they can say I've tried.

Yeah. So, your advice is jump.

Yeah. Get the advice you need, just mirroring what Advaita said. You can't make the assumption. Again, leaders have a tendency to think they have to know everything. You can't make the assumption that you understand this. Get some expert advice as to how to take it forward. If you're an internal communicator and you're a leader within that, it's take some steps to really have hard conversations with your leadership team, you know, push yourself into that space where they can begin to see you and realize that actually you are there to give them some support around how they communicate and connect with people, because that's in our gift to do that. So you kind of think, you know, instead of just just leaving it and saying, oh, we'll just focus on the things I'm told to do. Be a little bit proactive and step in that space with leaders.

Brilliant, thank you. Jenny, last word to you before we wrap up.

Not much else to add really. I think there's something important about giving managers and leaders a safe space. You know, I think I've been very privileged to have Advita and Trudy as part of my safe space in this area. That has been really important for me. And I think we talk in our own podcast episode about diversity. I talk about going through a minefield and how it can feel like that. And actually the easiest thing to do is just to go around the minefield or just not even step forward. And I think that's the same for leaders. It's the fear piece that Trudy mentioned. So I think if you're in organizations, it's got to start from the top. The ripple effects is real that Advaita was talking about, but give them a space to learn. And allow them to fail and learn. If you don't create that space, I don't think you're going to give them the ability to step forward and come out the other side of that fear.

I love that idea, and arguably so simple to be able to actually create that space for people to try and fail and it be okay.

Scott, can I just give a recommendation? Sure. It's Dr. Brené Brown, and I know we're all fans. How do you think— If I say her name often enough, I'm manifesting her coming onto our podcast one day. But anyway, on the side of that, Dr. Brené Brown is an amazing researcher who writes about vulnerability and the power of vulnerability and how you can use that to step into that space that Trudy was talking about, about allowing yourself as a leader to be vulnerable to make impact. So if you haven't read her book, then I recommend that you read the Power of Vulnerability book or, and, and/or the Dare to Lead book, 'cause she talks about this and why it's so important As leaders, we do show our vulnerability at times to make impact, and the best leaders across the globe are the ones who do step into that vulnerable space at times. So definitely check out Dr. Brené Brown. She does podcasts if you don't want to read a book, check out her podcast as well. But she is an amazing person because one thing we haven't mentioned is that all of this evidence and data is really important to back up, you know, our kind of emotion and guts around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And she does that brilliantly.

Super. And what a great way to finish. Advita, Trudy, and Jenny, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. I actually only got through half the stuff I wanted to talk to you about. So, you know, I think probably it won't be too soon, hopefully, until we see you back on again for another chat. But for now, I'll just say thanks very much. And you guys have a great afternoon.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

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