61 | The Future is Now: Workplace opportunities in a post-pandemic world with Kevin Empey

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

If we can build that sort of adaptive muscle or that adaptive skill set through this experience we're going through, that's going to help us sustain into the future, isn't it? And it'll help us maybe rather than coping, this business of thriving again will come in because we're actually used to it and we're used to change and we're okay with change and we're in a culture that It is open to change.

Hello there and welcome to the first episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast. Yes, don't worry, you're not in the wrong place. It is the same people with the same amazing interviews, what used to be the Inspiring Change podcast, but we decided actually maybe it was time for a bit of a name change and a bit of a rebrand. And you know, for us, a lot of the stuff that we talked about in previous episodes, nearly 60 previous episodes actually, was about ultimately creating better cultures in organizations better places for people to work, better places for them to want to come to, and therefore, as a result of all that, organizations doing better as well. And sure, isn't that what great culture is all about? So you are, as I say, very welcome to the first episode of Building Better Cultures. It's been really interesting over the past few weeks. I've been having lots of conversations with HR directors and chief people officers, conversations to find out what the big challenges are this year for people in the workplace. And the one thing that's come up time and time and time again is this whole idea of the return to office, the whole idea of hybrid working, future working models. Vodafone coming out just a few weeks ago and saying they were going with a 60/40 hybrid working model. Other organizations saying they never want to see people in the organization ever again in the, in the office. Other organizations saying they want to see everyone back in the office immediately. So people are finding it really hard, organizations are finding it hard to work out exactly what that future of work, in fact, it's not even the future of work anymore, 'cause it's now, we are now living the future, what that's gonna look like and what they have to do to make sure that they can still get the best from their people, their people still get the best from their organizations. Of course, mental health has become a very hot topic, the whole idea of work-life balance, or as I like to think of it, work-life blend, has become a very hot topic. So all of this is floating around, plus all the vaccine stuff on top, and people are just getting a bit stressed about what they're gonna do about it all. So I am very pleased today to have Kevin Empy on the podcast. Kevin is the founder of Work Matters, a Dublin-based consultancy that works exactly in this area. So, you know, Kevin will tell us more about Work Matters in a sec, but he's been around for about 4 years. So, you know, I've always wondered, you know, is he Nostradamus perhaps? Because, you know, he's the guy that's been basically looking forward and saying, well, this is coming, it's coming. And here it is now, it's arrived. So totally in Kevin's sweet spot. So Kevin, hi. Very welcome to the podcast.

Hi there, Scott. Thank you very much. And a pleasure to be with you on your first episode of your new direction, but more of the same good stuff, I'm sure. Yeah.

Well, let's hope so. And it starts off with you. So you are arguably—

No pressure.

No pressure. You're setting the benchmark. You are the benchmark for building better cultures. So listen, what I always tend to like to do is just to let you find your feet and just to let people know a little bit about who you are. Why don't you tell me just a minute or two about you, your background, and what what you're doing now with Work Matters.

Sure, Scott. Yeah, a bit of a diverse background like most of us, I guess. I am going back a bit. My background started in technology, actually, and in economic development and regional development at one stage, helping startups and scaling companies. That's going back now to the '90s, I guess. And I was asked then to set up and run a training company, a management training company. And I did that really not knowing anything about management training, to be honest. But thankfully, I was working with people who did. So that was fine. But it did sort of give me an exposure for the first time to leadership and people development generally. And that set me on a path. And I've been working in that field now for about the last 20, 25 years or so. I guess my last corporate job would have been with— as head of HR and talent consulting practice with Willis Towers Watson. And it was about 10 years ago with them where I really started started to, I suppose, notice and observe changes in the world of work and started a real interest in future of work, that future of work topic and what was going on. There seemed to be a huge trend in digital and in pace of change. Things seemed to be really heating up. There was more disruption going on in work. Cycles of change were becoming much shorter. So there was maybe a lot of stress in the system too in terms of people and change and all that. So I really I started to focus in that area about 10 years ago and took some time out to study in that territory too, and eventually setting up my own company, Work Matters, in 2017. And I guess what our main focus has been for that time is on the practical people and leadership issues, implications associated with the changing world of work. And then COVID comes along, I guess. I suppose pre-COVID it was territory like digital transformation and disruption and all the trends that we knew were going on in the changing world of work that were sort of prevalent in my area, both training and consulting. But certainly COVID, as you said, there's a saying, isn't there? The future is not quite what it used to be. And I think sort of COVID has caused everybody to sort of reset their assumptions around all of this stuff.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, when I think about that whole idea of reset, what do you think we've learned about how people work over the past 12 months? Because obviously, you know, we had lots of organizations would say things like, well, no, 'Oh, remote work, that just wouldn't work here. We don't have the systems or the type of work we do just doesn't suit the remote work thing.' A lot of which was based on lack of trust. What do you think we've learned over the past 12 months about how people work?

A hell of a lot is the answer, isn't it? I mean, I think one of the things that people say to me when we start to do a review on, say, well, look, what's gone on for you in COVID and what sort of learnings and practices do you want to bring forward? People always talk about the fact we've done things that we never thought we could do before. We just were kind of rinse and repeat. We were sort of repeating the same patterns of work and behavior. We were relying on models and practices that had worked very well for us before. You know, people have been successful, businesses, organizations, leaders have been successful up to this point. So suddenly we were forced not to change organically or because it was a good idea, but we were absolutely forced to change. And actually, you know, people have found that we could do that, we could change. And remember now, against all of this is the cloud of the pandemic. But within the work context, that was one of the things that people would say is that we did things, we've proven to ourselves that we can change and pivot and do things we didn't think were possible before. And that's a fantastic kind of lesson to bring forward, isn't it? And, you know, we We've had to radically change work practices, so, you know, that is possible. We can trust people who are working from home. Again, as you said, something unusual. We've also appreciated, though, haven't we, Scott, the connection, though, of human connection and collaboration in the office in a way that we probably undervalued or underestimated before. But resilience, agility, innovation, empathy for each other, that we're all in the same boat. It's been a huge leveller, hasn't it, in terms of, you know, silos within companies and organisational levels. I think it's been a real leveller. People have seen literally inside each other's homes. So that's just off the top of the head. I think a lot of— hopefully, what I'm really strong on in the moment is the idea of taking the best of those things forward is really now what what I think is really interesting, those learnings, and maybe banishing some of the things we've done and consign them to the pandemic bin. But I think there's a lot of good stuff that we can probably just pause and reflect on and hopefully make work better as a result going forward. And that's, I think, your mission too, I think.

Yeah, definitely. And you know, for me, I think that whole idea, the one that really jumps out at me from that list that you gave there, was just that idea of connectedness. Of people just feeling connected, of organizations having to work slightly harder. And I say organizations, but I actually mean organizations and their people because I think all too often we get sucked into the hierarchical world of business. And when people are saying, well, we need to get more connected, the first thing we do is look up the mountain to see, well, what are the people above me doing to help me be more connected? Well, actually there's a bit of an onus on everybody in an organization perhaps to say, well, what do I need to do? I need to do things differently. I need to maybe pick up the phone to my boss and see how she's doing, as opposed to me expecting that she is going to always ring around to the rest of the team and see how we're doing. Because I've said this a million times in this podcast, we talk about people leaders, they're people as well. They're suffering the same problems we're suffering. They're celebrating the same things we celebrate. They're no different really to the people that we are. They just happen to be higher above us in the hierarchy.

Yeah, I mean, that was really the question in my mind when I took some time out to research this was, well, number one, what does the future of work mean? I mean, there's no— there was no definition to it. It's just a label of convenience people use, you know, for all kinds of things. So first of all, what does it mean? And then what are the— what's the individual implications of this? So of course, there's loads of corporate, you know, implications. We've— there's no shortage of advice for leaders, for HR. But I'm really interested in, I guess, the individual context around this, about how we can navigate and indeed thrive in this thing called future of work rather than what I suppose I was noticing even up to the pandemic was more— there was more coping going on than there was thriving, shall we say, than people— there was this almost trying to control this increased pace and complexity that was kind of on us and lurching from one weekend to the other to sort of like recharge the batteries and off we go again kind of thing. So there was almost unsustainability, I think, in some parts of work and working life, even up to the pandemic, I think. And again, hopefully one of the things that has happened now is that rather than us trying to have to change those long, long kind of ingrained habits, you know, in the kind of business as usual context, we've actually been forced into a situation where we're going to have to rethink because any model of work now post-pandemic is going to be different. So we actually have an opportunity to to maybe, as they say, reset and rethink about those kind of priorities. But particularly the individual journey, I think you're so right. There's plenty we can do from the corporate perspective. But one thing the pandemic has probably done is force us all individually to sort of reflect on what— how do I operate best? And what do I personally need from my team, from my manager, from my work? Where do I work best? I think we've all been forced to— I've certainly learned a lot about my own work habits and best times of the day for this type of activity or that activity. So I think you're right. I think the individual journey on this is really important. And we can maybe talk a bit more about that in a while.

Yeah, definitely. And what's been born out of that for me is the absolute need for organizations going forward to offer flexibility, to not go in with big fixed frameworks of 2 days doing this, 3 days doing that. Our working hours are 9 to 5 with an hour for break at lunchtime. Exactly to your point there, if I know that I work really well, I know that when I was at college about 150 years ago, I worked really well from about midnight till 3 in the morning. I loved writing about that around that time. So that really worked well for me. We should be giving people the freedom to work how they want to work, obviously within the framework or the pitch lines of going after agreed objectives and what it is we have to achieve as a team. But let's all work out how we can do that individually the best way that we can. And I think that's going to really help people move forward, organizations move forward.

I just love that image of you in a nightclub between 12 and 3, in the corner, doing your best work. I just think that's great. Fascinating thought. But no, in terms of some of the models, you described them very well at the beginning. There's probably 3 camps, isn't there? Those who are saying, look, Twitter, and even Liberty Insurance last week saying, look, whatever. But we're going to be led by employees almost because our business model is such, our operating model is such that actually we can allow for that, or our culture, whatever the context is. They're saying it's a kind of almost free-for-all type of situation. Others, like, I think you're probably talking about them, but the Goldman Sachs and even Barclays and those, some of those are saying, no, actually, we are an office-based business. And that is our culture. And that is how we do our best work. And we are working towards a return to those fundamentals, if you like, probably with some, I'm sure, marginal changes, obviously. But most of the people are in that middle where they're trying to find some guardrails, aren't they, and some guidelines, or trying to kind of create some parameters around what this next what the next phase is going to look like, and some coming out saying 2 days, 3 days. But to your point, one of the more interesting— when I hear people say about this issue, I thought one organization was interesting. They said, you know, just to give people clarity so they can start to think about their lives and plan for the future, etc., we're going to start off with— we're going to start with an experiment that's going to be based on a guideline of 2 days. You should be able to work remotely from 2 days, whether that's in a hub or whether it's your home or whatever. And we're going to give that as a guideline. And we're going to create office space with that sort of assumption in mind. But we're being honest here, which is we don't really know. Because it's going to be up to teams and managers to find the right rhythm of work and cadence, if you like, of their operations. One team's operational necessities for their clients and customers, month-end processes, etc. Every team is going to look different. So we're allowing you and we're inviting you and we're actually challenging you indeed to work this out, you know, with us, rather than us telling you here's the top-down, you know, answer, as it were. And I kind of like that idea that there's sort of an openness and honesty about that, about We're going to give these guidelines and we're going to try two and we're going to review and we're going to learn and adapt. And if some teams go up to 4 days from home, if some teams go down to 1, so be it. But let's enter this new phase together and be open and honest about it rather than, you know, doing it by tic-tac.

And I love the idea of experimentation. And I think it takes, you know, it takes a lot of a lot of thinking out of things like Lean and Agile and failing fast and doing sprints and just seeing, let's try this for 6 weeks, see how it works out, get people's feedback. And maybe actually, maybe where they'll get to is if they are that open-minded to the idea of experimentation, is that actually we'll just be experimenting forever because maybe all the experimentation points to the fact that, well, actually just ongoing flexibility and experimentation is the way forward.

Yeah, and Scott, I think for me, if I was looking at hopes, if you like, or objectives for the next 6 months as we sort of transition to the new hybrid world, if we want to call it that, and we have to remember, by the way, too, there's tons of work. I think of all the frontline workers and leisure industry, et cetera, where this isn't even an option. Work is where it needs to be, right? But if we are taking, I suppose, the more knowledge worker, office working type of environments in mind who are trying to recreate a new model, I think one of the things I really hope for is that the next phase is used as that sort of experimental piece because there's a great opportunity there to build, if you like, the agility muscle, if you like. You know, I mean, we've all been— we've all had a crash course in agility in the last year, but in shaping the next phase, if we could do that in a way that is experimental, is trial and error, is open and honest, authentic, etc., isn't that developing work practices and a working culture that will then enable us to continue to change into the future way past this crisis? And for me, that's the real prize actually from all of this, will be that we're building a muscle and a culture that will actually enable further change because it's going to come. Look what's happened. I mean, we're all on about COVID now, but the last 20 years has been, you know, financial crisis, we've had technology disruptions, we've had individual company and sectoral changes. COVID is obviously a dramatic— and one thing about COVID it's everywhere. I think everybody is feeling the same sort of disruption, but there's going to be more, and that's certainly our our sense is that change is coming at us with a greater frequency, if you like, than it probably has in the last 50, 100 years. So therefore, if we can build that sort of adaptive muscle or that adaptive skill set through this experience we're going through, that's going to help us sustain into the future, isn't it? And it'll help us maybe, rather than coping, this business of thriving again will come in because we're actually used to it and we're used to change and we're okay with change and we're in a culture that is open to change.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. So let me pause you there for a second then, because that idea, I fundamentally agree with that, you know, basically you've got a huge opportunity to build that agility muscle, to build an organization that is more agile, more able to turn quickly, you know, on a sixpence, be more the tugboat than the liner. And I think that, you know, I think we both very much agree on that. Let's rewind back to something you touched on really briefly a second ago, which was Goldman's. And I just always think it's interesting to kind of have a little explore of the extremes in particular situations. And of course, Goldman's CEO who said, you know, I do think for a business like ours, which is an innovative collaborative apprenticeship culture, this is not ideal for us in reference to to remote working, and it's not a new normal, it's an aberration that we're going to correct as soon as possible. So basically what he wants to do is he wants to go back to March 12th, 2019, and basically pick up where they left off. So what you just described there as the, the potential benefits of this new way of working, this more agile way of working, is completely at odds with where his head is at. And I wonder, is that bad for an organization like Goldman's? Are they losing out on something that they could potentially win at? What's the impact going to be on an organization like that, do you think?

Yeah. And certainly, whenever I talk to people about this agility and flexibility strategy or capability, sometimes there's this immediate kind of saying, oh, it's good. It's good. And it's the way forward. And that whole kind of rigid, you know, more traditional model is bad and it's old world. And I just spend a bit of time in that problem for a minute because you kind of go, let's test that, you know, in terms of our business model and in our customers. I remember doing the research I did and it was an insurance company CEO said to me, Kevin, 90% of this organization, I do not want to be agile. And it was like it stopped me in my tracks because I was thinking agile and agility is good. He says, look, but our margins are so tight, our processes are so down to the margins, are so kind of tight that we have to kind of keep things down to processes and efficiencies and effectiveness. In other sectors, health and safety, there's just no wriggle room. It has to be what it is. We're working in a very compliant and regulated kind of world now as well. And there's almost no room to maneuver. So there's quite a lot of work out there that is actually dependent dependent on, if you want to call it, a traditional mindset or a traditional way of doing things. And I think we have to be careful to sort of rubbish that or to not acknowledge that actually sometimes that is probably appropriate. And you talked about agile ways of working. For some folks, that can be the most annoying way of doing work. It's like, gosh, we seem to be making this very complex for a process that is actually quite simple. We should just go A, B, C, a linear kind of way. And again, I kind of I think about that and I think, well, actually, maybe you're right sometimes. So what I think, for me, the essence of agility is not that it's against sort of traditional models. It's actually that we recognize when traditional models are appropriate and when we need to be, though, more agile as well at the same time. So that, for me, is agility. It's about being able to kind of be ambidextrous in that sort of way or or ride both horses or whatever you want. So I would challenge that CEO in terms of being that the old model, the traditional one, is 100% the way it needs to be. But at the same time, I would challenge others that, well, actually, maybe sometimes it has a point. Amazon is another example, which have publicly admitted that most of that organization and those employees are not invited, shall we say, to work in an agile way. It's absolute ruthless efficiency. But that vital 10% that has to be agile is darn agile, you know, and agile at scale. And hence they're able to do what they— I don't know if that makes sense, but I just think we have to be careful maybe sometimes in adopting just the latest fad or the latest fashion and throw out what actually is still valid.

Jumping on the bandwagon. And I think it's a very, very easy thing to do. Well, I can't believe, you know, we must throw, you know, Solomon, the CEO of Goldman's, under a bus for being like he's being. Actually, you know, in his business and where he is, maybe he has something right.

We don't know. We might suggest maybe a book on growth mindset, having said that. Just maybe, Carol Dweck. Zweig might have a word with him.

Perhaps. Maybe we'll give him a ring. We'll give him a ring for a coaching session after.

Because I guess that's, for me, leaders and individuals, even if your traditional kind of default is more traditional, and in terms of practices and that, what we really hope from leaders particularly is that they're open, I think is the key word. They're open to the possibility that they might be wrong, open to the possibility that there might be a different way, an alternative way. Open to the idea of unlearning, if you like, or unwinding a traditionally successful practice because actually the environment has changed, the context has changed, and the, you know, that diverse voice in the room who says, actually, I think this is the wrong way, actually, that's just the time to listen to them and to embrace a change. So, you know, it's not either or, it's kind of both, I guess, is what I'm thinking about. And, but that openness to be more agile in the future or open in the future, because the requirement to be more open and agile and adaptive is going to be called on in us more in the future than it has been.

And for me, that idea of openness, I think openness to change, openness to thinking differently, openness to your point about growth mindsets, that's the big thing for leaders and organizations, isn't it? Just being open to new and different ways of doing things. We talk about failing fast and failure culture and all that kind of good stuff, but actually it's about about leaders not just saying those words, but actually acting those words out. And one of the things I say often in training courses that I run, and I was literally saying it 2 days ago running a training course for a client here in Dublin, awareness precedes action. You've got to be aware that you've got a particular mindset. You've got to be aware that you're thinking a particular thing. You've got to be aware that you're jumping to the, nope, I want everybody back in the office as soon as possible. Place in order to— you've got to do that first. You've got to realize you're doing that first before you can affect any kind of change or thinking about doing it any way that's different. And that's something that in many leaders I find lacking is that whole awareness piece.

And I completely agree. And I wonder, is the last year or so really helpful because time for leaders to reflect on on how they have got on in that year in this way because they went into a pandemic without having any knowledge of how to, you know, what's the rulebook, what's the playbook for them as leaders and what do I do next. So they've had this experience themselves now individually and personally of having to lead without necessarily knowing the next step, you know, and And you know what, they've probably done— many of them at least have done okay. And those who haven't have probably tried to impose, if you like, their traditional mental models on leaders, you know, their traditional approach perhaps, and have probably found themselves working all day and all night because they're trying to fit everything in and give everybody a one-to-one and everything. But actually, if they take from this time the experience of not knowing, and being aware that they don't necessarily have all the answers, nor does anybody expect them to have all the answers. Isn't that quite a liberating experience in that if I go into my leadership practice not trying to be the one who's got all the knowledge and all the answers, and if I've had this experience of being open and a bit more vulnerable and a bit more authentic and a bit more empathetic, wouldn't that be a great sort of set of habits to bring forward rather than feeling the pressure on my shoulders to always have the answer? It would be.

And I think that also brings back to the point about individual action, because I still think that maybe some of that pressure comes on leaders to have all the answers because the people that work on their teams perhaps expect them to have all the answers. And perhaps now what we've seen over the past 12 months is that whole idea of, look, they just don't have all the answers because it's such a moving feast all the time. So actually, I've just got to get on and do something. It might be the right thing, it might be the completely wrong thing, but at least I've done something and I've taken action as an individual within the parameters of what we've agreed as a team. So I definitely think there's two, there's definitely two at play in that for sure. I don't think the leader not having the expectation of having to have all the answers, but the team members not having the expectation of their leader to have all the answers.

It's very interesting you say that. So just last week, I was talking to a CEO who's changed his language around performance management. He's now calling it expectation management. And it's in this philosophy of having a more conversation-based culture. And, you know, getting rid of terms like performance management. And the expectation management idea is that it's a real adult-to-adult conversation now to say, well, look, what my expectations of you are, you know, and the role you do are as follows, and my expectations in terms of ways of working and communication, etc., are such. But it's equally a conversation about what is your expectation as an employee in terms of what you need and what you expect and what works for you, particularly in a blended, you know, and remote kind of context.. So it was just an interesting way he used this time to really break the cycle of that traditional power struggle that was going on in performance management generally, that even though we might pretend we're in a meeting of equals, we're not really. And we're having a power-based conversation on performance. But the very fact that he's changing the language around expectation management was a way to to maybe break that cycle and get into a more honest conversation about what your responsibilities are, what your role is in this relationship for you to have a great life at work, not just what I can provide and expect of you. So again, I think I would hope again, maybe perhaps this phase is probably a new We're looking at hopefully a new phase in performance management, conversation-based expectation management, that whole area, because I think the new blended world of work will really— could be the nail in the coffin, if you like, of that traditional paper-based, annualized kind of command and control type of experience.

Let's hope so.

You won't have it. Yeah, you simply won't have access to people. You won't see them. You won't be there. So therefore, it's going to have to be different anyway. So why not use the the chance to make the shift that we were all talking about for so long.

So what do you think then? So a few really good examples there of things that have changed for the better during this pandemic period. But I wonder, what do you think generally best practice working is gonna look like in the future? Get your globe up.

You said this would be easy, Scott. You said you'd be nice. You said you'd be nice. Gosh.

Kevin, for the listeners, I can see Kevin reaching for a crystal ball.

Yeah, I know. I love the way you actually framed that question as if it was the most straightforward question in the world. But no, to be serious, what's best practice? What's it going to look like? There's no shortage. I'm not even going to start with the tips and tricks that you see out there. Gosh, isn't social media and everything just awash with all the kind of ideas? And to that point too, one of the things I am certainly doing is reaching out to people who are kind of going, what change are you talking about? Blended world of work, remote working, leading teams around the world that I've never met before? Sure, we've been doing that for 10, 20 years. And so one thing I would say is that, you know, what they say, the future is already here. It's just purely distributed. I like that idea is that actually there is access, there's knowledge, there's skills, there's tips, tricks out there. And because I certainly do think though they— we do need to prepare for this next phase because we had what we had before COVID we've had what we've been having as a kind of almost 100%, again I qualify that in terms of that might not be— that won't be the case for some job categories, but for office knowledge-based stuff it's been almost 100% remote. And people have settled maybe into a rhythm of how to do that. I think the blended model, the hybrid model, is actually going to be quite messy. I think we have to brace ourselves for and enable ourselves and help ourselves and be kind to ourselves as we prepare for what I think is going to be quite a messy phase for a lot of people who don't have experience of actually managing teams who are all over the place, you know, some of them in the office, some some not? Do you have that meeting when there's 9 in the office and 2 who are not? What do you cover in that meeting? What's that meeting for? What type of meeting should we absolutely insist that we're all together physically, if that's possible? Or if it's not, how do we make it collaborative? So I think there's going to be a new toolkit, if you like, a new playbook, a new set of skills and tips for the hybrid world of working that's not going to be the same as it has been necessarily for the COVID world. So that's one thing I suppose I just have a sense that the blended world is going to be a bit different. In terms of practice though, I suppose what I'm observing in working with folks and about what they've done There are kind of 3 steps I think I've seen quite a lot, and I know you, you prescribed this 3 or 4 steps where there certainly is an effort at the moment to stop and reflect on what kind of vision is there for the future model of work. So to paint out some inspiring, hopefully, and encouraging and positive picture of work in the future and the fact that it's going to be something we figure out together and it's going to be hopefully better than it was before. I think that's an interesting step because there's a little bit of sometimes we're getting sucked into the vortex of, oh gosh, we have to plan for social distancing, 2 meters, is it going to be 60%, 2 days a week, is it going to be September, is it going to be January, is it— and we're getting kind of, you know, maybe lost in the detail of the transition. So that first step of actually just acknowledging what the future we're trying to shape, I think is a useful step.

And my advice there to build on what you just said, my advice to organizations who are thinking about what that story or that vision is, is not to shy away from, this will probably be quite tricky. This might feel uncomfortable sometimes. This is going to be occasionally messy while we find out what works and what doesn't, showing that bit of vulnerability and just being Being open and honest and transparent with people can win you a huge amount of fans internally.

And Scott, it really goes right into your territory in terms of communications and culture and storytelling and engagement. I think that skill set, I think, I wouldn't underestimate it because I think people are looking for a bit of hope, a little bit of encouragement. I'm finding that the work we do, when we say, look, we're going to run a focus group or a survey or we're going to— engage, if you like, the employee base on the future next phase and get their sort of fingerprints on the principles, if you like, underpinning that new phase and get them involved. It's amazing how positive they are. But people, even though they're Zoomed out, they're engaged on that question because they feel like, actually, I'm invested in this. I'm part of shaping my own future. And I find, contrary to the general mood of the company, it's actually very positive. Positive conversations and very engaging ones. So there's that phase, Scott, I think is important. And then there's a bit too I think is quite important about scoping the work that does need to be done and the work that doesn't need to be done over the next 6, 9 months. I think, again, I've observed and been with folks who have a list long as your arm regarding all the actions that are going to be required to get this perfect day one experience and all the processes lined up and everything in the workplaces, you know, and it's a great aspiration, but I don't think that's possible. I think if we could just focus on getting the core elements right and involving people in this experimental phase, etc., and providing just the parameters or the broad canvas for people to operate in and focus on getting that done really well, I think that will be terrific because I think whether we like it or not, it's going to be quite a transitionary phase anyway when we do get back and do things in a different way. So that's kind of step 2, I think, is that, that whole idea of scoping out the work and, and, and, and then I guess enabling, and then picking your battles then around enabling people to be ready for that. So one of our more popular programs at the moment is our agility programs because because people are kind of going, well, how do we help people maybe rationalize agility and also just capture those skills of agility, maybe, so that when they are in that transitionary mode in the next number of months, they have some resilience and they've got some tips and skills to be able to bring to that transition. So look, that idea of the storytelling, the early phase of visioning what's going on, the idea of scoping and picking the battles regarding what needs to happen and what could be left next year, and this enablement piece then, I think if we could get those 2 or 3 things right, I think we'd be doing well for 2021.

Yeah, for sure, and organizations not putting themselves under massive pressure, as you say, to get day one 100% spot on. And I think, you know, I think actually the, the opportunity, the way win potentially of saying to people, because it's in that third phase, I guess, where you're saying to people, listen, you guys work out, to your point earlier on, Team A, Team B, Team C will do things different ways to each other, but also perhaps do things within their own world of work week to week differently as well. So just giving them that flexibility to be able to do that themselves. And you know what, from just the whole idea of listening to people, taking their feedback, Putting in place some of the things that you just talked about there, playing back that we've put those things in place because of your feedback, and then empowering them to get on with the job in hand, that is a massive, massive driver of engagement in people. Because I'm being left, I'm being trusted and empowered to get on with the work that I know I can do really, really well. And I'm not having somebody standing over me saying, well, you know, I need to performance manage you to death. I need to have you in this meeting. I need to I need to have you in an office, I need to have you sitting in front of me because I don't trust you. The positive impact on that is gigantic, which actually leads me beautifully into my last question, 'cause I'm just really conscious of time. If we think that perhaps if we get this right, that teams are going to be perhaps more engaged, perhaps more productive, perhaps more bought into where an organization is going, what other benefits do you think, Kevin, this whole new future working model is going to bring for businesses? And do you think there's a downside for those like— let's just use Goldman's because that's who we've been talking about— who don't embrace it? Is there a downside for those types of organizations?

Yeah. So you've talked about the engagement dividend, if you like, that's there in terms of how— not what the model is going to be, but how we do it, I think, is a huge opportunity engagement. And I think I mentioned it earlier. I think not just for engagement over the next phase, but I would hope that what we're going to do there, if we could really focus on those things you talked about where now people will have the skills, the adaptive skills, not just for the next phase but for beyond, right? And whether they stay with that organization or whether they move on, they will have had the experience of adapting and trying and experimenting and knowing what works best. So for me, a big benefit of this next phase will be about future-proofing prepping, if you like, organizations and workforces for the inevitable further disruption that's down the line. So I think that's a huge benefit. Another benefit that comes to mind too is the idea of being able to access skills rather than own them, if you know what I mean. So I think people are getting used to the idea already. I literally had a conversation yesterday where people said they've made two— this, for guy made the point that they've made two appointments from— with people, candidates who they would never have employed before. Now, this was within the country of Ireland, but of course, obviously, we're talking about a global marketplace for skills now. There was no way they would have gone for those because there would have been this assumption, this paradigm, that that job had to be located in the head office in Cork or Dublin or whatever, and therefore you were limited limiting your pool, your talent pool to that constraint, which as we know now is a false constraint or a false assumption. So the idea of being able to access skills rather than having them all housed and owned and controlled within an organization, I think is a huge benefit. On the downside, I think there's risks, of course, with this new flex. So I think we talked a little bit about the always-on piece and the risks around boundaries around all of that, which I think is a real one. I think people love that. That sense of the key in the door, you know, that sort of line. But I think the good thing about the end of the pandemic, which I hope will come soon, is that there will be more choice. So I will still be able to have that experience of getting away from, you know, 100% remote working. I'll be able to get that blend, whereas at the moment it just feels like it's just Groundhog Day and I'll never get that feeling back. Yes, yes, you will. You will have that. But I think the big risk for folks who don't go this direction, Scott, or at least acknowledge it, this idea of the open growth mindset idea, is that their competitors will. Isn't that the issue? So people will now— they won't be comparing salaries. Well, they might do a bit of that, but they'll be comparing flexibility and they'll be comparing the work culture that exists. In two organizations that on paper might look very similar. So what I'm finding in some of the research we're doing is that people's ambition for the next phase of work in terms of the more flexibility, more this, more that, is great, but actually it's no more than their competitors. So therefore, it's a defensive play. It's going to be a defensive play as much as an offensive play.

Yeah, because everybody's raising the bar at the same time. A rising tide lifts all boats kind of idea.

So it's kind of no choice really but to respond in some way. I do think, finally, that I would say that flexibility in work is not just about where you work, and that's another debate. So we're having conversations with, you know, people who maybe have a diverse workforce where the issue of where I work is not actually an option. So therefore the danger is that this new world of work is going to only be applicable and relevant and attractive to those folks who are lucky enough to have roles where they can work anywhere, right? But what about me? What about me? I'm in logistics. I'm a truck driver. I'm in retail. So one of the things we're trying to do in the programs we're doing is when it comes to a flexible hybrid work culture, if you like, is not just think about where work gets done, but how work gets done, when it gets done, on who does the work and how I might be able to share it. And what work— really even think about redefining the role and challenging assumptions about the roles and what people can do. And maybe that mightn't be all solved day one. But I think it's an interesting question is that we don't limit ourselves when it comes to flexibility to the question of just about where work gets done. But there's a lot more to flexing work, if you like, than where. And I think that's an interesting opportunity for the future as well, because to challenge some assumptions about job descriptions and roles and what people are capable of. Because one thing we found out in the last year is people are capable of a lot more than we probably gave them credit for.

And I think that is a lovely place to finish. Kevin, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been brilliant. Some really practical stuff in there that I hope listeners can grab and take away and maybe use to challenge yourselves a little bit in terms of your own thinking and where you want your organizations to go. So, Kevin, thanks a million. We'll leave it there. It's been wonderful chatting to you.

Thank you, Scott. Take care and best of luck with the rest of the series as ever.

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