80 | Unlocking the Power of Diversity: Building a Culture of Inclusion and Equity | Wema Hoover

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

Part of affecting change is understanding, feeling, and creating that environment where there could be that honest dialogue, where someone could not feel inhibited by asking a question. What is xenophobia? Why is Black Lives Matter? Why did it resonate all over the globe. I think that that is so important.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, is an area that we've spoken about a few times on the podcast. I still think that it's something that organizations struggle to get their heads around. And if the truth be known, it's something that I struggle to get my head around. And I've said this before, that as somebody, a 48-year-old white man, I think it's actually difficult for people who are in my group to get our heads around as well. And I'm happy to put my hand up and admit that and say that I still struggle with the area sometimes too. And I think lots of business leaders struggle the same. So I'm delighted to have Wima Hoover on the podcast today. She's a global thought leader in the whole space of DEI. She's worked for brands like Google, for Sanofi, for Pfizer, for Bristol-Myers Squibb. We'll talk to her in 2 seconds. Before we do, the quick usual thank you to Workvivo. If you are struggling to get your organization aligned and focused, then Workvivo, their digital employee engagement platform, is well worth a look. You'll hear more about that later on, and you'll find out more about them at workvivo.com. Wimma, hello there.

Hi Scott, how are you?

I am brilliant, thank you. I'm just back from my holidays. I'm raring to go. I've been in back-to-back workshops all day, and I'm really looking forward to our chat. So, thanks a million for being here. It's great to have you on. Why don't we kick off as we always do on this podcast? And I keep threatening to change the format, and I will one day, probably. But I just think it always really helps listeners to understand maybe a little bit about you, where you've come from, and what you're doing today.

Absolutely. Well, first, thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure in our pre-discussions getting to know you and the work that you're doing. My name is Waymo Hoover, as you have mentioned. I am the former Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Head for Google, also former Chief Diversity Officer, Head of Culture and Employee Engagement for Sanofi, also having led diversity and inclusion for companies like Pfizer and Bristol-Myers Squibb. And now I am full-time executive leadership coach, really focusing on helping leaders navigate in this very dynamic and ever-changing social climate environment that we're in. Not only facing what they are leading internally within their organizations, but as individuals, that can harness and make space for all of their employees to really be able to contribute fully. Uh, I also do, um, articles and publish on various relevant topics that are affecting our world. Um, and not only individuals, but corporations and organizations such as mental health and wellbeing, um, fair equity inclusion, how to make sure that you are intentional about putting practices and actions in place in this new norm. That we have in a virtual environment, a remote environment that most of us are working in. And now that has been extended with the Delta variant and really just supporting individuals and organizations to not only address it, but create pathways to find relevant solutions in their organizations.

I think it's incredible that, you know, what the change that we've seen in the past 18 months, not just with COVID and working from home, but how that's really somehow highlight. And of course, Black Lives Matter, that happened just before the COVID thing kicked off. I just find it amazing that the trajectory that we've been on ever since on exactly all of those topics that you talked about— mental health, diversity, equity, inclusion, remote working, all of those things— just the whole issue, or all of those issues appear to have just sped up dramatically in the past 18 months. So leaders must be really struggling.

Absolutely. I mean, not only did it sped up, speed up, but you have this convergence of individuals, not only trying to navigate and still be productive, still have innovation, but also living this kind of duality of their personal lives. Now it's one, you know, no longer do you have a separation where you have commute time or you have a car ride or you have a, a train ride or a bus ride where you have that disassociation. And so now how do organizations and, corporations really create the conditions where that you're acknowledging the additional pressures, but also creating a place for people to be able to have that impact, but recognizing that all things are not equal, that you still are dealing with people that have come from different society and cultural backgrounds that may not have, you know, the same innate ability to contribute as fully over a virtual environment, over a conference call or a video call that also may struggle with keeping connections with other colleagues and making sure that they have those networks to not only help them individually, but help their careers and be able to navigate. I mean, we're almost 2 years into this, Scott, right? And so these are the things that no one forecasted. You did not predict the length, but quite frankly can have a huge impact on the culture, on the engagement, and also the wellbeing of your employee base.

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I don't think anybody— I mean, I was only laughing. We're just literally back from our holidays, as I mentioned, and we booked our vacation at Christmas and we kind of said, well, sure, we'll just book the vacation. This is exactly— this is all going to be over by then, surely. We've had it for a year. It can't go on any further, can it? And of course, here we are facing into possibly more lockdown. So it's a very, very interesting time. I want to talk to you particularly about the whole area of DEI and build on some of the conversations that we've had before. And I think probably it would be useful for anybody, you know, who maybe is not au fait with this or is still confused, for you to perhaps define, first of all, what DEI is and what it stands for.

Absolutely. So DEI is diversity, equity, inclusion. And when we talk about diversity, we talk about all of the differences that each one of us as individuals bring into the world. And this can be you, Scott, as a, as you said earlier, a 47-year-old white man. That is me as an African American woman, but all of us have our unique experiences that are formed by our backgrounds, our values, and the society that we live in. Equity is how are we intentionally ensuring that we are not excluding or marginalizing any community just because of affinity or familiarity. We know from the study of unconscious bias that is a natural response that we also have from our implicit associations to gravitate and navigate to those who are like us, who have similar upbringings, similar values, and just a similar overall life experiences. But we also know by that doing so, we actually are not allowing ourselves to really understand and really experience a full relationship and us grow personally and professionally. And that's what equity intends to do. To do is how do we make sure that those biases that are implicit, that all of us have, don't get in a way for us being able to allow the pathways for growth, the pathways for upward mobility, to really interfere with the development and growth of our employee population. And inclusion is those practices, is the specific tangible actions that we put in place to ensure that we are controlling for, that we are mitigating, and that we are creating the behaviors in our organizations to promote equity, to tap into the diversity, and to see the value in it and how it's contributing to our culture and our business.

Brilliant. Thank you. When I, when I think about DEI, it's plainly, well, apart from just the fact that it's the right thing to do, Right? It just should be what we're doing as leaders in organizations. Why is it critical for organizations to get their DEI strategies right? And actually, what does right look like?

And honestly, that is a fantastic question. Right looks different for every organization. Because quite frankly, you and I both know the old adage, right? Culture plus strategy eats business, right? Say culture eats strategy. And so, it really is relevant on what is the culture? What are the values? What is the mission? What is it a company espousing to do? And how are you mirroring the behaviors of your leaders, of your managers, of your employees to ensure that you live those values? And most of that, a large part of that is ensuring that you have an environment and conditions where everyone is able to contribute, where you're looking at the full complement of your employees' skills, perspective, and insights. Because quite frankly, in the world that we live in today, not only are our businesses, our clients, our partners, our patients are not within our states or our regions. Quite frankly, it's global. And we need to understand how to navigate in that global environment, how to afford different leadership styles, how to understand the different cultural influences that goes into our relationship, our partners, the way that we connect, the way they understand. And that's all a part of your culture. Because if you don't have the behaviors and explicit explanation, explicit instruction, and definitive platform for what you're expecting and how does that show up, not only within your employees and how they interact, but also with your customers and your clients, then you are literally just setting a poster on a board. And honestly, this is where we see within cultural surveys that there seems to be a huge disconnect between what employees experience and what they see to be what is propelled and communicated from the organization. And therein lies the kind of integrity, right? Or lack thereof that. So that's why it's so critical to not only have an ambition, as we saw last year after, you know, the Black Lives Matter and the racial injustice Justice Against Black, all these organizations came out with these ambitions and these great, great, great plans. But now, right, a year later, when you're looking at, so now what? What has happened? What has transpired? Now you have apathy in your employees. Now you have the disengagement 'cause you're, you know, seeing kind of, is this a part of who we are? And if it is, this should not be something that you have to espouse in a campaign, but something that truly is changing the way that we operate and behave.

Yeah, I, you know what, I couldn't agree more. It's the whole idea of blacking out your logo on Instagram or Twitter for a week. You know, it's great, but if there's no follow-through, if nothing actually changes in the organization in terms of how you do things or how you look at that situation or how you change things or what you do to mitigate some of those issues, then it's for nothing. And it's exactly the same as you said about having a poster with your values up on the wall. If you don't live the values, there's no point having the poster because what it does is tell you that, it just creates that gulf of integrity that then undermines trust. And trust is everything in organizations.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change, or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. What do you think are some of the biggest barriers to creating equitable, diverse, and inclusive cultures in organizations?

Yeah, that's an interesting question because I truly felt, having worked as a Chief Diversity Officer in this space, you know, for over 13 years. The biggest barriers is the desire to do good and thinking that just saying and communicating what's— what you want to do, and then is enough, right? And then saying, now, now go forth, everyone go forth and change. That is the biggest barrier. And what I say is that it's great, right? Because the intention is there, the desire to change, but I think it is very naive naive to think that just having a platform, as you said, with your blacking out your, your, your internet streams. Yeah, social media to support. It is very naive to think that that alone will actually sustain. What is needed is really a true diagnostic and a true look at where are we failing? What do our hiring stats look like? What do our leadership teams look like? What are they to divert? What are the complement of them? Are we able to really harness the impact of our millennials and Gen Y? Do we see input from them? Are we understanding the conditions of our Asian employees that are now facing xenophobia and hate crimes? Are our Black employees that have now are suffering the trauma of the racial injustice What spaces are we creating? Not only from a saying it at a town hall, but understanding it in our teams, creating parallels and pathways that people can communicate, whether it's through employing resource groups and having platforms to educate and communicate to the organizations, whether it's through employee assistance programs where you're looking at how are we supporting our employees through this? How are we ensuring that we have racially diverse counselors to support? And whether it's through bringing your leadership groups together and saying, this is what our expectations are. This is what we are going to be expecting. And this is what we, if we don't see these behaviors, this is how it's gonna be mitigated. It really has to be intentional and has to show up in practice. And I think the biggest barrier when the intention is there, but there is a naivety around how to drive that in truly sustainable ways that quite frankly, with success, looks like is that you are now evolving your culture. You are now evolving the expectations that it no longer has to be set out as a program or a tactic, but yet thereby harnessing and shifting the way that you manage, shifting the way that you assess talent, shifting the way that you have dialogues around the engagement and the involvement of all your employee base in meaningful ways.

And what role do leaders play in that? Because for me, and I've said this a billion— there are people now listening to this podcast throwing their eyes to the heavens and going, "Oh, not again." The leaders in organizations are, for me, the most important people in organizations because they're the ones that rightly or wrongly, we look up to, up the hierarchy, up the pyramid, to see what they're doing. And what they're doing, we'll then do.

Absolutely.

What do they need to be doing? What do those leaders need to be doing in order to move the needle in this whole area?

Absolutely. And I couldn't agree with you more, Scott. Leaders need to first look at themselves. Before you can change your environment, you have to look in the mirror and actually see what am I grappling with? What are the things that I know, or maybe not know, but take the step to educate, to understand, What are the obstacles or some of the things that they need to come to terms with? Because quite frankly, that is where you have the disconnect we talked about earlier around the intention, but the integrity, because they don't match in the actions. And I think leaders start with— and this is a lot of the work that I'm doing right now with my executive coaching— with understanding, how do I, how do I feel? How do I show up? And what are the things that I need to educate and inform myself and then create that space and environment for dialogue. I think that that is the most important second thing to do outside of leaders really doing that reflective internal look around where they are, what are their, some of their challenges and how they can work through is creating the space for dialogue and exchange and then going to the accountability, right? If you're looking at what am I looking at my, how am I ensuring my leadership reflects what I'm expecting from a diversity, equity, inclusion? What am I doing to, to understand and recognize where those groups that may not have the network, the sponsorship, the advocacy, how am I ensuring that they get visibility so that their talents can be assessed, so that their talents can be discovered? What am I also making sure that I actually am tapping down and pulling through what may not come naturally because we know the systems, right, as what they are, all systems may have some bias in them. Those are the critical things that leaders should be doing. And again, it shouldn't be one time. It should be a part of your management one-on-one basics that now has to be present, I think, in all teams, in all leadership forms.

I love that idea of creating space for dialogue and that being really important because it is really important. There was actually, there was an advert on the TV here that still gets, in Ireland, that still gets talked about. Out now from the Financial Ombudsman. And it was just a load of people sitting on a bus. And one by one, they all said, "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is." And then somebody else said, "I don't know what APR means." And somebody else said, "I don't know what to do if I default on my mortgage." And it was all these financial terms that people just are a bit— They didn't really know where to direct the questions or they didn't really know who to ask or they didn't really— They maybe felt stupid asking the question. And I think a lot of that, interestingly, there's a lot of parallels there between between that campaign and this discussion that we're having today. And I wonder if people who are in my socio-demographic group are the ones that are struggling with that, are the ones that are going, "Well, Jesus, I'm not Black or I'm not Asian. I don't have a disability. I'm not female. I really struggle to know what to do. I struggle not to say the wrong thing." I'll just say nothing. And that's probably better than saying the wrong thing. What do you say to those leaders if they're listening?

What I say is, be courageous. It's just tough. This is not easy. It's not easy for those that are experiencing it. And this is their reality because this is their community. And it's not easy for the leaders that truly have the intention and desire to affect change. But part of affecting change is understanding, is creating, as I said, not only the space, but feeling and creating that environment where there could be that honest dialogue, where someone could not feel inhibited by asking a question. What is xenophobia? How are— why is Black Lives Matter? Why did it resonate? All over the globe? They can— what is the historical impact? I think that that is so important. And quite frankly, for someone of a diverse background, I feel so much more secure and have so much of a foundation of trust and connectivity when someone asks me and really seeks to understand. And what that does from an organization and from a team dynamic It does. It creates that opportunity for that to go beyond that safe space. Because once you have established that trust and you establish that there is truly a desire to learn, to listen, and to quite frankly create new norms in your organization, in your teams, so that those individuals you acknowledge, you hear, you create the space to communicate, that actually will create a stronger much more integrated and much more, you know, a team that is, is really has a foundation of trust and quite frankly, will then kind of garner together and really lead in a hugely unified and impactful way. And it's, I wanna acknowledge Scott, it's not easy and it, and it is, could be scary. And you could feel that you're making a mistake or you're offending, but that's why it's so important to have those spaces and to lead with I— this is what my intention is. I want to understand. I want us all to understand for the betterment of us connecting, for understanding, and being able to pull together and rally around and support each other during those times.

I love that. And it's that whole idea. And it's something that we talk about in a leadership, you know, in a leadership sense all the time is that sense of vulnerability.

Absolutely.

Of actually being, to use your word, being courageous, walking to the edge of the cliff and jumping off.

Yeah. I mean, it's really around that, right? It's around the empathy. It's around the humility. It's around courage. And it's also around— and this is where I said it starts with the leader themselves. They have to have a desire to do this, right? And when I say desire, because they recognize— the great leaders that you have seen are the ones that have stepped up and recognized an absence of this, I am not going to be able to have my employees feel that they can bring their full selves. They're gonna come in, that trauma is gonna be there. They are gonna feel that maybe this person thinks this way or has these behavior or have this philosophies and just putting it out there and creating the space and saying, not only do I wanna hear you, I wanna understand, and this is how we're gonna operate and navigate. It's so powerful. And quite frankly, that can be the, litmus and the gel that you need during these really uncanny times that we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. You need that going forward for retention, for the engagement, and for having that trust in those teams that can navigate the uncharted waters that we're in today and that we may be in for some time.

And if you think back to your roles, I'm just As you're talking, I'm thinking, God, we are asking so much of managers. They are so squeezed. We're asking them not only to do a day job, because in most organizations we don't see leadership as being enough of a day job. You need to have a day job as well as the leadership stuff. We're piling more and more on their plates. And what I'm thinking, as you were talking, was what gets measured gets done. What gets measured gets done. Is it the right thing or the wrong thing to put in place measures and KPIs around the whole area of DEI to try and start to affect some of that change? Because if I'm not being measured or judged by it in my objectives, my KPIs, am I going to do it over something else? Maybe not. Maybe I am, but maybe I'm not. What are your thoughts on that?

You know, Scott, that is always kind of the one-on-one philosophy. And I say this, this. Any business organization does not operate without having a strategic plan. They are not operating without outlining what is their— what are their business imperatives, what are their goals, what their objectives, and how they're going to get there. And the same has to be done for diversity, equity, inclusion, especially when we know from the research that there are inherent biases, when we know from employee surveys that there are disparate experiences when we know from hiring stats, it's like we have literally all the evidence and data. And so thereby I think KPIs are critical. Now what my philosophy is, the KPIs are critical to start to change behaviors, to show what it looks like in practice from going from, you know, espousing and having ambitions that you have desire and you have good intention to now saying, This is what it's going to look like in practice. And that is just, I think, what is going to enable employees to shift and say, this is the culture and the values of our organization. This is what it looked like. For example, when I was a chief diversity officer, one of the things that we found is that women going to more senior leaders were having— senior leader positions were having difficulty kind of breaking through the glass of vice president, executive vice president, because one of the criteria was for individuals to take international assignments, where some women, because of family support structure, couldn't do that. So we created a global flexible work policy saying that you can work basically in any region and in leadership positions. And as long as you perform and you have outlined, outlined objectives and you're meeting the objectives, that should not be a barrier for, for you. And we also increased as a part of that, our paternity leave so that it's not only the women that are actually— you're supporting the men and making sure they have time and kind of creating that equity. And those types of intentional practices is what has to be put into KPIs so that you are creating that equity. You are setting expectations for what does it look like in practice, and you're holding managers and leaders accountable. Without that, it will remain just a feel-good, I want to do the best thing, altruistic desire with slow or very lagging results. So I think it's imperative to have KPIs.

I want to chat in a minute rather than— and I could have said this earlier on, it's just the right thing to do. Obviously, there's going to be a business impact as well, hopefully a positive one if you get it right, maybe a negative one if you don't get it quite so right. But before we talk about that, just a little bit more on the KPIs piece and the measures. If there's somebody listening to this episode saying, all that stuff is really good, we're not doing enough in this area at all, we need to be doing more, we need to introduce some KPIs and some measures, what would be the types of things that they should be looking at measuring? What KPIs, types of KPIs should they be putting in place at a very high level?

Yes, they, it needs to start with your data. I would look at your data, Look at your hiring stats, everything from entry-level to mid-manager to your executives. What does it look like from an external hiring? And what does it look like from internal movement? How are your promotions? What is the demographics and the statistics around your promotions? Where are you seeing that there are plateaus or certain communities or groups just hit a glass ceiling and that you're seeing overrepresentation? And typically what happens, you see an inverted, you know, a pyramid where you have overrepresentation. Of certain underrepresented groups at the lower levels. But as you progress, those clips, it gets thinner and thinner because the pipelines get thinner. You don't see the same movement. I would also say, look at what your leadership demographic is, because one of my philosophies and my theory, you cannot be what you don't see. And if you don't have the representation at the top, literally you're not going to have out those individuals that actually see the value and the potential of a leadership style, an approach, a perspective that may not be of the dominant group there. Starting with that and saying, if you don't have it, what is your plan from succession's perspective to build that? How are you investing in it from a female perspective and making sure you have your female type, type talent and pipeline? From minority perspective and looking at the talent programs you have in place. Your high potential programs, making sure if you don't have the diversity in there, that sometimes you have to, you have to be intentional, you have to over-index and saying, wow, you know, our high potential programs, the ones that are for our C-suite are homogenous. How do we make sure that we get the pipeline of talent in there? And also looking at your, if you do an engagement survey every year, I think that that is one of the most critical elements. Because it really shows the experience of your employees. And you can do— cut it by demographic, by age, by culture, you know, by country. That usually gives you huge insights into the experiences and what are the gaps. And so for me, it's starting with the data and using that to really have a tailored approach to the KPIs that are going to be the most significant for your organization and impactful.

And having worked in some of the world's biggest organizations, including Google and Pfizer and Bristol-Myers Squibb and others, Sanofi. What's your take on quotas? Because I know that having spoke to a few, I have a few good friends who are female, who are senior in organizations. And they of course would say to me, "I don't want the job because I'm female. I want the job or because I'm Black or because I'm gay or because I'm disabled. I want the job because I'm bloody good at my job." Absolutely.

And I agree with that. My take is that if we open the channels, that is where we will get the magic. That is where we get the talent. The challenge is that what we have seen, the research has shown, and we've seen is that our channels are so narrow. We have literally— I have been in one of my roles, I won't say, and looked at job descriptions and seeing job descriptions, 30 years experience, technical expertise, one area, have managed, you know, teams of 80. It's so per se, I'm like, well, why, why is it so narrow? Because that's the person who left the role. Those are the people we've already had in a role. It has to be around changing what we are, what not only we need for our organizations, but what are the complementary skills that we want to have in the future? And I think once you change that lens, quotas begin to be insignificant. Because then what you're seeing is that, wow, you know what, our biggest growth markets is Asia, is Middle East, Africa, which is like the technology boom right now. We don't have a pipeline of talent to understand how to navigate the historical influences, the geopolitical influences. We need to get it. It shifts your whole perspective. And that's where I think that the value comes in. How are you looking at culture add and complementary skills and mapping that to your business strategy of where you wanna be 3 to 5 years, and using that to actually change your model for talent leadership skills. If you do that, quotas will be insignificant.

So that is such a brilliant point that I'd never thought of before, that we write job specs based on the person that's just left the job, not based on where we want the role to go, not based on where the organization's going, not based on what our strategy's doing. Absolutely.

Based.

And of course, you're going to hire a similar kind of person. Naturally, when you think about where are we going with this role, that opens up, as you say, that opens that channel and makes it so much wider. I love that. That's, that's so smart.

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Tell me a little bit about the benefits to organizations over and above it being the right thing to do. Obviously, to have, to have a more diverse, equitable, and inclusive workforce. What are the benefits? What have you seen are the benefits to organizations from a, from a financial perspective or a growth perspective or a success perspective?

Yes, absolutely. I think number one is you're truly harnessing the full complement of talent to your organization. You are recognizing the differences in your customer base, in your patient base, You are bringing that into not only the quotas you have for your employees, but the way that you look at market segmentation, the way that you look at healthcare disparities, the way that you look at kind of partnering with those emerging market countries, which are vastly different from the majority. That is number one, is making sure and allowing for the full tapping into the complement of skills, perspective, experiences of your talent base. Number two, is truly around having a purpose-driven organization. Now employees want to work for companies, organizations that are contributing to the betterment, to the upliftment, and to the improvement of the social climates within their countries, within their communities. I mean, this is now becoming such an expectation. You see here in the United States, we have things like the Amicus Brief, right, that is solely driven by corporations and has legislated really the federal government on laws like marriage equality for LGBT. You have Dove that started the, um, the Crown Act, and that now organizations signed up for the Crown Act legislated the federal government to provide protection around women who wearing their natural hair. And preventing discrimination. All of these things are born from organizations because their employees are saying, if this is our values, if this is our mission, how are we ensuring that we're not only doing it for profit, but we're doing it for purpose? And I think that that is what is going to lead to profitability, is having the sense and having those actions that drive purposeful organizations.

Yeah. And it's about people having voice, I guess. And raising that voice was actually, when you talked there about natural hair, and there was the thing in the Olympics that I'm sure you picked up in the swimming where African Americans want, or people of African descent wanted to have a different type of swimming hat because of, a great example, your hair, which is beautiful and big. And, you know, people, you know, we wanted a different type of swimming hat, but that was legislated against because it was seen as being of benefit in the water. People made lots of noise and the swimming body said, "Actually, maybe we should go and look at that." Yes.

And it's like, when you know better, when you know you do better, right? And it's about raising awareness. And honestly, I'm proud and I'm so happy to see organizations truly giving a platform for their employees to not only raise this, but to challenge them to say, how are we being— living our values? How are we really having our missions drive our purpose and changing the communities that we live in? I think that's powerful. And quite frankly, Scott, I think we're going to see much, much more of that.

And what do you think is it going to take before we don't have to have— this is a lovely conversation to be having, but arguably we shouldn't be having to have it really, should we? And I wonder what's going to have to change in the future before we get to a point where you and I don't have to have this conversation, where we don't have to raise this as an issue and something that people need to look at? What's, what's going to have to change? What does that future look like?

I think the future is now, Scott. I think we're seeing it. We're seeing it now with the NASDAQ here in the US. Two weeks ago, it mandated now not only do you have to have women on boards, but you have to have minority executives on boards. We're seeing it now because the social climate is not only shifting but is giving voice and platform that is reverberating across the world. I mean, with the Black Lives Matter and the racial injustice of African Americans, I at the time was living in Paris, France, and I can tell you, we actually— there were protests in France that was really looking at how this impacted— affected their community and the people of African descent there. In Germany was our second country where our employee base were protesting.— then in Beijing and Middle East. I mean, because there's now a sense of solidarity and there's a sense of we are human citizens. We are now, you know, we had the pandemic, everyone was so alone, so you could not avoid seeing that, okay, there is, you know, a theme here. There is connectivity that, that can just cannot be— that's undeniable. And I think that is what we're going to continue to see. More of. And I think it's going to be the social climate, the organizations now transitioning and really looking at their purpose, looking at their— not only their philanthropic efforts for to have a campaign or to be seen as altruistic, but truly to reflect their vision, their mission, their values. And of employees, and you see more of the young generation, this is just their expectation. Like, they want credibility. They want integrity. They want to have purpose in not only in their personal lives, but with the organizations and contributors. So I think the time is now and that these shifts will continue. And I think that the pace of them will actually get more increasing because now we are having the platforms for change, just as you said with the Olympics. And I wrote an article recently around mental health and wellbeing Olympics that people are raising them and they want to have have these things as inalienable rights and expectations of as employees and individuals. So I think the time is now.

Yeah. And it sounds, from what you're saying there, it sounds like these conversations aren't going to go away and maybe they shouldn't go away.

No, no. I don't think that they should. I think that is a norm that organizations are recognizing now. I absolutely feel there's a shift. Right? And there's a shift in not only doing things that, you know, have been normal check writing, but how are we from a systemic standpoint having an impact on growing the STEM pipeline for minorities and women? How are we having, making sure that not only we get female leaders, but we're giving them an opportunity to affect our cultures, to understand how to create conditions that are better for more female employees. It is very, um, a very interesting time because those culminations are coming to a point where now that is a part of the active leadership. Boards are now holding accountability and want to know what are we doing again to making sure that we create the conditions and organizations that stand on purpose and help us like be— have the integrity of the mission and the values of our organization.

And again, it comes back to that point, what gets measured gets done.

Yes.

The NASDAQ now saying, you have to have this in place, this in place, and this in place.

Yes.

What gets measured gets done.

Absolutely.

And if that's where we have to start, then that's where we have to start. Conscious of time, Weima, last question. And it's been wonderful chatting to you. We'll finish on this. If there's somebody listening to this episode of the podcast, and they've really not done anything or maybe enough in this space, what do you think? What would be your advice on the first thing they should do on that EDI journey?

Yeah, so I will answer from two perspectives. From an organization's perspective, if they want to start on their journey and truly put it in place, really even beyond getting a chief diversity, equity, inclusion officer, which I recommend, but even before that, like I referenced what I say earlier, Look at your stats, look at your hiring stats, look at the complement of your leadership teams, look at how are individuals growing both externally, you know, from outside the organization and internally, and really have a channel to listen to your employees, whether it be an employee survey, whether it be an opportunity for employees to have questions and give impact in town halls. Have space for exchange and dialogue with your employees. Those are the things that I think needs to do— be done first. As an individual, I would say raise your voice. If you are experiencing, if you hear something, if you are an ally, raise your voice and create those conditions and those networks from employees where you can have those discussions, where you can communicate and see what the impact, and use that platform to quite frankly educate the broader organization. Because the truth of the matter is sometimes our more senior executives may live in a bubble because they need to, because they need to, and that's no fault of their own. They need to be laser-focused. But this is where the impact of solidarity, of community, of networking can have a huge, huge positive impact on culture, on community, and on the behaviors of the organization.

Brilliant. There you go, people. You heard it here. Raise your voice. Rima, I've so enjoyed the conversation. It's been wonderful having you on. Thanks for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And hopefully we'll get you on again in the future.

Likewise. Thank you so much for the invite, Scott. It's been a great discussion and exchange. I wish you all the best.

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