87 | Lead from Behind: How To Cultivate Healthy Cultures and Empower Teams | Peter Docker

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

We thundered down the runway and got airborne, but then around about 300 or 400 feet, we had an emergency. What I chose to do in the next 2 seconds would fundamentally affect whether the 140 people on board would survive or not. But actually, what I did was absolutely nothing.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of Building Better Cultures with me, Scott McInnes. Firstly, as I always do, a big thank you to our sponsor Workvivo. A little bit more on them later on, but as I've, I've said before, if communicating with your staff is something that you're really struggling to do, particularly now as we move into more of a hybrid world, then their solution is well worth a look. You can find out more about them at workvivo.com. Now, today's guest, it's quite often on LinkedIn you see a post that says, what's the one thing that you wished you had done and you didn't do from a work perspective? And the one thing that I always wished I had done was become a pilot, was to do the RAF thing, was to become a pilot. And actually, it's my 50th birthday next year. I know that those of you that know me I don't think that I look nearly that old, but it is my 50th birthday next year. And I said to my wife, you know, I wouldn't mind learning to fly. I wouldn't mind actually doing my PPL. So, you know, I love Top Gun, I love any of the flying movies, I love seeing planes and being in planes. And even now, at the ripe old age of 49 years old, I still say to my wife when I'm on an airplane, isn't this just absolutely incredible? And she rolls her eyes to the heavens and says, oh Jesus, not again, not again. So when I was— when I, when I had my little pre-chat with today's guest, who I'll introduce in a second, um, we got to the end of the conversation and he said, you know, see, so, you know, do you think this will be a good fit? And I said, to be honest, Peter, uh, you had me at pilot, which was about his fourth word. Uh, so we— it was, it was destined, it was always destined to happen. Um, it was just a matter of when, and it's going to be today, which is great. So look, I'm really, I'm really excited to introduce Peter Docker, who is a leadership speaker. I'll let him tell you more about himself in a sec, but he's just written and released, just actually a few days ago, the 19th of October 2021, a new book called Leading from the Jump Seat. And the idea that actually the best place to lead a team is not necessarily from the front, but actually from behind, and supporting that team and bringing them up and getting them to a place where effectively you become redundant. Because at some time, you know, you're going to die or leave the company or retire or move on to a new role. So they need to be okay without you. And I guess it's, for me, having read the book, it's about getting people to that place. So Peter, you're very welcome on the podcast. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you, Scott, for having me. Delighted to be here.

Brilliant. Listen, let's kick off. I always start off with a nice easy one to get you into your stride and also just for listeners to learn a little more about you. So why don't you just take a few minutes to tell us a bit about you, a bit about your background, and what you do today.

Sure. So I've been hugely fortunate, Scott, in all the different things I've done in my life. But I was in the Royal Air Force for 25 years. And yes, I was indeed a pilot. But of those— I know. Of those 25 years, I flew for about 12 of them, because you get to a certain level if you're promoted where you don't then fly anymore. So I've done other roles in the Royal Air Force. I was a force commander during the Iraq War,, which was a big leadership challenge for me. I've been a negotiator with NATO when the Berlin Wall came down with the Russians, negotiated with the US State Department on export licensing, led a £20 billion procurement project, taught at the Defence College here in the UK, a whole bunch of other things. But then I left after 25 years, I joined a consultancy and worked around safety leadership in oil and gas and construction and mining. But then for the past 8 years or so, I've been speaking around the world. And I had an association until a couple of years ago with Simon Sinek, who wrote "Start with Why," and I co-authored with him the book "Find Your Why" together with David Mead. But for the last 2 years, I've been focusing on, well, what's next? And the result was the book you've kindly already mentioned, "Leading from Fear." The Jump Seat. Um, and that brings together all the things that I've learned from tough leadership situations, whether it's handling emergencies in airplanes, leading people in combat, or being a parent, which I think is one of the toughest leadership challenges of all. And in the process, I, I've been to 93 countries around the world and worked with some of the largest companies in the world and seen great leadership and pretty poor leadership too. So this book brings all that together in It's a how-to book and it's there to help other people lead better.

And I think we'll probably end up coming back to this later, but that point you made there about, I was in the RAF for 25 years, but I only actually flew for 12 of them. And then I ended up getting promoted out of doing what I guess when people are pilots, doing the thing they absolutely love, which is flying aircraft. And I think lots of people get to that place as well, where they get promoted away from the thing they love doing. I know a very good friend of mine is a Chief Technical Officer, and sometimes he says to me, "God, there are some days, Scott, I just wish I could write some code. That's all I want to do." And we get promoted away from the thing we love. So we might come back to that later on, because I think that's a really, really important thing to have a little think about. Tell me what the theory is behind the book. Where did the kernel of the idea come from?

Well, it's linked to a story that I do share in the book that goes back to 2002, where I was still flying the Air Force, but I was fairly senior, and I would check other pilots. And I was checking this particular pilot, Callum, who had recently almost completed his course to go from first officer or copilot over to captain. And so it's quite a lengthy course, but at the end, there is a final sort of check ride or check flights with someone like me at the time. And I monitored Callum as he flew this large passenger jet from the UK over to Washington, D.C., and then on to San Francisco. And as we land in San Francisco, a very busy place, and we shut down, I was able to turn to him and say, "Callum, great job. I'm going to sign you up now. You're fully certified. We'll stop here the night, but in the morning, you'll have a regular crew with you. I'll be down the back with the rest of the passengers, and you fly us back to the East Coast and then on home." And it was a great moment, as you can imagine, because he'd worked hard for this. And it was a privilege to sign him up. The following morning, he came to me just before the flight. And he asked if I could go and sit on the jump seat. And the jump seat is the seat on many large flight deck or large aircraft flight decks that is positioned immediately behind the two pilot seats. It's generally empty, but crew can hitch a ride home. And when you sat there, you can physically touch the pilots, you know, they're just at arm's reach away. And Callum wanted me to sit there, not because he was underconfident, but because it was very busy rush hour in the morning in San Fran. And it wasn't a place we went to very often. And he wanted an extra pair of eyes looking out, watching out for other aircraft as we taxied and made our way to the runway for takeoff. And it was a really good decision, I thought at the time, a courageous decision as well, because he just got me off his back, you know, after being checked for months and months. But It was all in service of the safety of the airplane. So that's when I sat while strapped in and we tacked it out. And finally, it was our turn for takeoff. And we thundered down the runway and got airborne. But then around about 300 or 400 feet, which is very close to the ground, we had an emergency. And what I chose to do in the next 2 seconds would fundamentally affect whether the 140 people on board would survive or not. And, you know, we might all have ideas in our head as to what we might do in that situation as the most experienced pilots, as I was on the aircraft. But actually what I did was absolutely nothing. I sat there with my hands in my lap quite calmly because I knew I'd trained Callum, I'd signed him off the previous day to fly this aircraft. Anywhere in the world. So there was no reason for me to intervene. What I needed to do in that moment was to become a great follower. I needed to step back, give him the space, have him feel that I had his back so he could then do his job. So this led to the notion in my mind of leading from the jump seat, because as you said in your your intro, Scott, you know, at some stage we all take a step back. That is inevitable. We retire as a CEO, we leave our team, or ultimately we end up on the wrong side of the grass. You know, we do step back, or indeed our children grow up and leave home and start to lead their own lives. You know, it's inevitable. So leading from the jump seat is about leading in such a way where we prepare our people for that moment, where we create the space and lift them up so they then can take the lead and carry forward those things that are really important to us.

And I think that whole idea that he knew you were there, and if he needed you, he could have reached back and said, "Peter, what next?" But he didn't because he was well trained. He knew his onions. He was able to fly the aircraft and off you went and you got safely to your destination, which is brilliant. And like all these things, look, so many of these great examples are embedded in great stories. And that's a great story that underpins the reason for for the book and the great title. One of the things you talk about quite often is this whole idea that leadership being about human connection, and that there's a real core of human connection at the middle of leadership. Tell me a little bit more about your thinking around that.

Well, I really focused on this in the last part of the book, really. The book is split into 3 sections or practices. There's commitment, humble confidence, and then belonging. So your question really falls into the latter part there, belonging. And what I mean by belonging is that I see it as a leader's role, someone who's responsible for a lot of people and chooses to lead. It's their role to nurture this sense of belonging. So let me give you an example why this is really important. You have a teenage daughter, don't you?

I do. Two of them, actually.

Okay, so this is so gonna resonate with you, Scott. Here's one of the greatest leadership challenges that many of us all face. How do you get your teenage daughter to put her dirty laundry in the washing basket?

Oh, you stop doing it for her?

Well, will she do it herself generally?

No, not generally, no.

So we can try all sorts of carrot and stick approaches. But Chances are they won't regularly put the dirty laundry in the basket. But let's change the context. How about this coming weekend, she's going out with her friends and she wants to wear her favorite outfit. Will she put her laundry in the basket then to get it washed?

She will.

Chances are she might even wash it herself. Why? Because she wants to feel that she belongs to her group of friends. Now, this is the point, because when we scale that up into business or any team, the nirvana, if you like, is where people are choosing to step up and take responsibility. And taking responsibility is very different from people being made accountable. You know, when our kids were young, they all played out on the street outside because it was an enclosed space and it was safe. And they played with their neighbors' kids. But if we saw a car coming along or a stranger we didn't recognize, We'd go out, we'd have accountability for our own children, but we would choose to take responsibility for our neighbor's children.

Why?

Well, because we belonged to the community. And so we wanted to step up and take responsibility. And so it is in an organization. If we want people to start to step up and lead themselves and do more than perhaps what they are contracted to do, then we need to have them feel that they belong, that they fit, they have a role to play. And the way we do that is simply by caring. And this goes beyond empathy, but what I'm talking about is truly caring for our people. And that doesn't actually take that much time. You know, during the Iraq War of 2003, I had 200 people over in the Saudi desert.. And we were flying large unarmed, undefended aircraft that carried fuel, and we refueled other airplanes. But the vast majority of my time of the several months out there, I spent just checking in on an individual basis with my people, checking to see, "How you doing today? How are things at home?" Now, I did it out of genuine curiosity and care for my people. Because that goes on to have them feel that you've got their back as well. Yeah. So when people feel they belong, they will step up. And so that's one of the most important things I believe in leadership and leading a team.

And that does not come naturally to many, many leaders. And I know that during the past 18 months of COVID and lockdowns and people working at home and even moving forward, into hybrid working, you know, I've been saying to teams, it's the very simplest of things. It's a postcard in the mail to say, I'm thinking about you. It's knowing that Peter's favorite chocolate bar is a, you know, a whole nut, and just sticking one in an envelope with a Post-it note on it saying, I was thinking of you. Yeah, here's a bar of chocolate.

Absolutely.

Ringing, ringing somebody up out the blue, not to talk about work, but just to simply say, how are you really? How are you getting on? How are the family? So that's all. No work stuff, no nothing, just that. But it doesn't come naturally to people.

No, it doesn't. But you know, there are huge parallels for those of us who are parents, you know, because we want our kids to feel we care for them and they belong. And even though they grow up and leave home, there's still a place for them. You know, there's still a room for them. And it's exactly the same in companies too, you know, and this isn't about forcing anything. It's just about that human connection. And these days where it's hybrid working, or we don't get together very often, it's even more important to do this, you know. Um, and during my time, the, the military, I, I had people deployed all over the world, um, uh, some cases in my career, times my career, um, but I, I went to great ends to make sure that they knew that I was watching out for them.

And it's even probably more important in that scenario where you're abroad, where you're in a battle zone, where you're in the desert, where you're so far, metaphorically and physically, away from home.

Yeah, it is. You know, one of the things that we're always taught in the Royal Air Force was when you're out on deployment somewhere, then perhaps in a combat situation or in a humanitarian relief situation where it's still tough, then one of the most important things is making sure that the people you have, their families back home, are taken care of. Um, you know, during the Iraq War, I, I sent back, I think, no less than 3 people whose grandparents— one of the grandparents had passed away or was about to pass away. Um, and we would move heaven and earth to get them back. In time, no expense spared. Um, and it's not something we talked about particularly because it was just one of the things that he did, you know.

Um, it was the right thing to do.

It is. And one last thing on the military side as well, um, Scott, I, I mentioned that side because when we're talking about caring for our people, some folks listening might get the impression it's all a bit tree-huggy and a bit soft and whatever. Well, No, it's not. Because I really— I know this from having been in fairly extreme situations where people are choosing to put their lives on the line for others. And they do that because they know that their leaders have got their backs, that they belong, and they choose to do it, not because they're ordered to do it. So what works in extreme situations works in the normal business environment too. It's just in those extreme situations, it strips away everything else that doesn't really matter, and you get to the nub of what really drives people. Hi, I'm Kleena from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work from. For more, see workvivo.com.

Let's roll back to near the start of the conversation where we, you know, I mentioned having listened to you mention it about you having had 12 years of flying and then a further, you know, 12 or 13 years of desk-based work and that in organizations, we still take people away from what they're really technically brilliant at, and we put them into effectively people leader roles. And I talked about it there a second ago when I said that, you know, sometimes that, that empathy, that human connection, that 'how are you getting on' phone call or a Dairy Milk in the mail, that just doesn't come naturally to people. Or they think, oh, you know, that's just not me, that's, that's not how I lead. Why do organizations keep doing that? Why do we keep taking really brilliant technicians, whether they be IT people or lawyers or pilots or whatever, and put them into people leadership roles? Why are organizations still doing that? And what can they do to get away from that?

Well, as you asked that question, I was reminded that— just going back to the Air Force for a moment— when I was in the Air Force, they had what was called specialist aircrew. And you got to a point where you could choose if you wanted to go down the promotion path where you were ending up formally leading people, or if you wanted to stay flying. And you had to be selective for that too. You couldn't be a duffer, you had to be a good pilot. But then you would sign on until the ripe old age of 55. So there was a choice there that people could make, which I think is important. What you're referring to is what usually happens where success is seen through promotion. And all of a sudden, you're not doing what you were employed to do originally, you know, the computer programmer or whatever it happens to be. You're looking after those computer programmers. And it is a major transition that most companies, in my experience, don't prepare people for. And when we don't prepare people for that transition, something ends up getting in our way. And that's ego. You know, up until that point, we've been probably the go-to person. Heck, that's probably why I've been offered promotion, yeah? And so getting to the stage where we're willing to let go of being the person who's always got the answer is very difficult. But if we want our team to really rapidly progress, we need to be comfortable leading when actually we don't know the answer. And we're looking to our team, we're holding the space where our team can figure it out. Because at the end of the day, if we are the one who's always going to have the answer, we become the constriction in the pipe. And people just wait for the person at the top to say yeah or no or tell them what to do. But when we get comfortable leading when we don't know the answer, and we're just holding that space for others to learn their way through to the solution, then our team accelerates so much faster. And I explain in the book how, how to go about that.

Okay, and how do you go about that? How do organizations prepare? You know, when you said there— and you're right, and I see it all the time in my clients and in clients that I work with— that the people aren't prepared for it. They are just dropped into people leadership roles. And more often than, more often than once on this podcast, I've used that David Brent line of, 'To assume is to make an ass of you and me.' Yeah, and it's true. We just assume, well, sure, Peter was a great pilot, he'll be a great leader of pilots because he knows pilots. That's great. You mightn't have been. You might have been an absolute plane crash. How do organizations get away from that?

Well, it's a choice in the culture. What I would say is that we can each prepare ourselves for that. And it starts with— like most things do with leadership, in my experience— it starts with the person in the mirror. And what really helps us in these situations to lead when we don't know the answer is to, first of all, get really clear on what's really important to you as a human being. For most of us, family, for example, is pretty important. When my wife gave me a call a couple of years ago and she'd had a road accident in the car, I dropped everything and went to her aid. Nothing would have gotten in the way. And it kind of lit a fire inside of me to overcome those challenges, even though I didn't know what I was stepping into. But along my journey, if you like, I've discovered other things that light a similar fire. For example, wanting to be able to take care of those people around me, my family around me, yes, my parents when they were alive, by getting into a good job and earning money so I could support them. That was one thing that was really important to me. Another was the notion of mutual respect. And that caused me to leave university halfway through my degree and take a very different career path, which led to the Royal Air Force. So my point is when we get clear ourselves on what's really important to us, those things then act as a handrail, a guide, and gives us courage when we find ourselves in situations which are unusual or we don't know the answer. And that gives us the courage to have something else instead of ego, to have what I refer to as humble confidence. Humble confidence is when we have, as the name suggests, have humility to listen to others for their input. We see the world as a place of possibility and opportunity rather than a place of scarcity and fear. We're thinking of others around us rather than ourselves. And we're resolute in terms of where we're going, even if we don't know how to get there. So humble confidence is so important because when we have that, it equips us to take a step back, to source parts of the solution from our team, and not expect ourselves to have the answer all the time. And that humble confidence is fueled by understanding what's really important to us as individuals. So, in answer to your question, there's a lot that we can do ourselves to prepare ourselves to lead when we don't know the answer, to lead that team when we're used to being the expert. It starts with the person in the mirror. It really does.

So it's very much less about what the organization can do for me. But if I want to go on that leadership journey, what can I do for the organization and for myself and for my team?

Absolutely. We can always lay the blame at, oh, the organization doesn't support me, give me the space or whatever, or prepare me. Yeah, there is more that can be done. But actually, it starts with ourselves.

So you've talked about the three— I may have rather unfairly in our previous conversation referred to those buckets themes in the book. Humble confidence, you've spoken about briefly. Belonging, you've spoken about briefly. But the first one that kicks off the book, so I feel as though we're coming at this slightly backwards, is commitment, is getting commitment first. Maybe talk me through a little bit about the commitment theme, because what I want to come on to next is just some, maybe some practical thoughts under each of those themes in terms of what people should be doing if they're thinking about how they can become a better leader from behind, that leader from the jump seat, if you like.

So yeah, let's dive into commitment because that's fundamental. That's the foundation. And it links back to what I was talking about a moment ago, which is getting very clear on what it is we believe in, what it is that is really important to us. And I mentioned briefly that I left university halfway through my course. So I'd gone to university to read computing and electronic engineering, two subjects I had no experience in whatsoever. But I figured out that that was where the future lay., and I'd be able to get a good job and support my parents who were both unemployed. They'd lost their jobs and were struggling. So that was my motivation there. But halfway through my degree, it was 1982, and the Falkland Islands was invaded. The Falkland Islands being a British territory, it wasn't about politics for me. What incensed me was that someone was trying to impose their will on others who did not want it. And so this is where it started to emerge that mutual respect was really important to me. And I chose to become a part of an organization that I believed in future would be able to, to take action and help those who could not help themselves. So these started to turn into what I call stands. And a stand is very different from a position. A position is against something. But a stand is for something. It's like we've got a very narrow street leading into our village. There's only space for one car to pass at a time. So often you'll get two cars bumper to bumper, head on, they stop. And each driver starts to take up a position against the other driver, saying, "Well, no, you were going too fast. You need to reverse up to the parking space, to the passing place." Or, "My journey is more important to you than yours." And they become more and more entrenched in their position. But what if one driver immediately reverses up to the passing place? What happens then is the other person who's taken a position, that position dissolves because a position cannot exist without a counterposition. But the person who's reversed up to the parking space, they've done so because they have a stand for being courteous on the road. And that stand can exist regardless of the other person. So this is a progression. When we get really clear on what's important to us, what really matters to us in life, they then can become stands, what we stand for. And the more we practice it, the more those stands become part of our character. And then we can employ those stands to turn into commitments. How are we going to put that into action in the world? What are we committed to? And unlike— the way that people often think about commitments. I can make a commitment to you, Scott, to pitch up on time for this recording. But actually, what I need to do is make a promise to myself that that's what I'm going to do. Because it's only when I make that promise to myself that I'm going to carry through. And that's based on a stand for mutual respect. So this is what commitment is about. And when we can really focus in on those stands, what's really important to us, it unlocks this tremendous fire inside of us. And that fire, that energy gives us the courage to overcome obstacles that we don't even know exist yet. Just like when I left the house to go and attend to my wife who'd been involved in that road traffic accident. I didn't know what I was getting into, but there was nothing that was going to get in my way. So this is what commitment's about.

And it feels very much like you talked about your Simon Sinek work. It feels very much aligned with that whole idea of having a strong purpose, a reason for why we do what we do. Is that reasonable?

Yeah. I mean, there is clearly a link there. What I put forward in the book is that we can have lots of different stands. You've got to stand for your family, as do I. I've got to stand for the work that I do. I have to stand for my friends and neighbors. And if you're a parent, you've got to stand for your kids, don't you? I often had conversations with mothers who typically said, well, my reason for being is my kids. Well, yeah, it is. That's one of them. But you have other reasons for being, other things that really light that fire inside of you. So let's look at those in the whole and see how we can bring those together to really empower us and drive us forward in whatever it is we choose to do in life.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. For me, having, having those, having, having that overall purpose, but then a number of stands within, is a very powerful place to be. And I think that drives us. And, but I think probably the more important thing that we spoke about just before we came on is this idea of awareness, of being able to, as you said earlier, stand in front of the mirror and look at ourselves first and say, "Well, what is it I stand for? What is it I do? Am I noodling myself a little bit by not doing what I should be doing because that's against my own values or my own stance?" Yeah, absolutely.

And this is where the humble confidence kicks in because to be willing to have that self-reflection is really important. It takes humble confidence to have that self-reflection. If you want to be a leader that empowers our people, lifts them up so they can carry on after we've taken a step back, then we need that humble confidence. Hmm.

Hmm. So we've spoken about the 3 themes. What I love on this pod and what listeners have told me that they love is just this idea of getting some really practical insights, some nuggets that they can maybe take away and apply literally as they're listening or tomorrow when they get back into the office or back at their desk. What I'd love you to do is pick 1 or 2 just practical things that people can do within each of those 3 themes if they're struggling in those areas.

Absolutely. Well, first of all, in the book, at the end of each chapter, there's what I call a Consider This section, which does just this, depending on what stage you are at life, in life. But here's some. So commitment, okay? Try this as an exercise. Think about something that you really feel very strongly against. And if you need inspiration for that, just pick up a newspaper or listen to a news bulletin.

Just pick up the Daily Express.

Oh, whatever.

Yeah.

It's full of positions against something. And notice the energy that's lit up inside you. And as that position sort of takes hold, then take a moment and dig a bit deeper and ask yourself, well, what's my underlying stand, my underlying commitment beneath that? So for example, the Falkenlines example for me, that infuriated me. How dare they do that sort of thing? But my underlying stand was, well, I really believe in mutual respect. Live and let live. And when we latch onto that stand instead of that position, then it releases a very different sort of energy. So that's the first exercise. Figure out what you have a position against and dig deeper and find the stand for. That sits underneath it. Yeah. On the humble confidence side, here's one. Next time you have a situation, perhaps it's at work, or it might even be at home with your teenage kids, where you know the solution to something. Instead of going straight to that solution and telling people what to do, Take a step back and say, "What do you think we should do in service of what it is we're trying to achieve?" I've written in the book about a friend of mine I haven't seen for years, but Darryl, who started life sweeping floors at the age of 14. It was a long time ago, sweeping floors in a piano factory. How difficult can that be? But actually, someone showed him how to do it and he learned. How to sweep a floor properly without kicking dust up in a piano factory. What he promised himself, his commitment from then on was whenever he was given a job to do, if he knew how to do it, he would always ask how the other person would do it. He's learned a lot since because of that approach. That takes humble confidence. Yeah. Finally, on the belonging side, Send somebody a text you haven't been in touch with for a while. Ask them, "How you doing? How's things?" And just reconnect. Or it could be someone on your team who perhaps through hybrid working you haven't seen face to face for a while. And give them a call out the blue and say, "Look, I'm not phoning about work. I just want to check in with you. How are you doing?" How's things? Your family all right? How are you finding this hybrid thing? Is it working for you? What else can I do to support you so you can do your work better? And make sure there's no edge to it of we need to be more efficient or whatever. No, no. This is the human connection. And nurture that sense of belonging.

I was laughing as you were talking about humble confidence. And even though you have the answer, when it's your kids, not just telling them the answer. I'm a— I am a bugger for that. I, uh, so that is something that when I, when I hold up the mirror to myself and I, and I think about my own awareness, is actually— that's a, that's a brilliant one that I will start doing, and I will commit, uh, to myself to start doing that actually today. So, um, uh, that was brilliant for me. And listeners, if any of you want to, uh, send me a bar of chocolate, it's, uh, it's a fruit— it's a Cadbury's Fruit and Nut. Uh, that's my That's my bar of choice. Thank you very much. We talked a little bit previously about legacy, about leaders leaving a legacy.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit more about that and why you believe that's so important.

Well, that's an interesting question because the way I approach it, it's not about, right, everything I do, I've got to I've got to do it because I want to be thought well of afterwards. No, it's not about that. At least not for me. It's about being the pebble in the pond. You know, when you throw a pebble in the pond, the ripples go out and you never actually know how far they'll go. And I was very fortunate a couple of years ago, I hadn't been in touch with anyone in the Air Force for a long, long time, because I actually had quite a bit of depression after leaving the Air Force and self-doubt and all the rest of it. I share all this in the book. But then I was invited to go and speak at a dinner for the RAF, all the squadron commanders. And that was like going into the bear pit for me. But I went and did it because I said I would. And during that time, a hand came on my shoulder. And it was a guy, Simon, who'd been a junior officer on my squadron when I was the squadron commander., and he had been promoted and was now commanding his own squadron. And I subsequently discovered that there were several others at that dinner, and a total of 7 junior officers on my squadron during my time who all subsequently were promoted to be squadron commanders in their own right, which is a high, high number, high proportion. Now, was it down to me? No, of course it wasn't. It was their capability and their their prowess, really, and dedication. What I like to think, though, is that I created the space where they had the opportunity to step up and reach their potential. That, for me, is legacy. Often, we won't know how far those ripples will go. It's like in the 1970s, there were two satellites launched, not Sputnik, the Voyagers, Voyager 1 and Voyager 2. And they have long, long since left our solar system. They're traveling at around about 35,000 miles a second or something ridiculous. It's beyond comprehension. And it's going to be something like another 4 billion years before they come anywhere close to another object. It's mind-boggling. But the reason I mentioned them is the route they're going, the track they're following, has all been guided by this tiny blue dot that we call Earth. And sometimes the seemingly most insignificant things that we do when we're in a place of leadership can be the most significant things that we ever do. It's just that we probably won't always get to know it. So when I talk about legacy, I'm not talking about the statue on the plinth. I'm talking about how many pebbles have we thrown in that pond? If we are very, very lucky, we will sometimes get to hear the ripple effect of those pebbles and how we've created opportunities for others. That, for me, puts a smile on my face.

I was going to ask you another question, but I think I'm actually going to leave it there because I think that's a wonderful Wonderful place to finish. I'm going to very quickly build on your story about being back with those now squadron leaders, because you do mention in the book, and I'm gonna— it's testament to your own humility, but actually they said to you, and you've quoted it in the book, "It was you that got us here. It was you that created that space, and it was you that made what we are now happen." So well done to you. And, you know, I think it's, as I say, testament to your ability that that wasn't even mentioned, so I'm going to mention it. On your behalf. Where can— I presume people can find the book on Amazon and places like that?

Yeah, so I'll send you a link for your show notes, Scott, but Amazon, all the different Amazon stores around the world, retail stores, it's in print form, ebook, and also audiobook, although, well, that will be in the link too. Only a few places on audiobook, because places like Audible and one or two other sites, they've got a huge backlog uploading stuff, but it is available. You just need to hunt around or use those links that I can send you.

Brilliant stuff. And I'll make sure those go into the show notes. For now, Peter, thanks a million for coming on. It's been a fascinating conversation. I've loved every minute and the pilot thing definitely helped. So maybe I'll see you in the sky sometime next year.

I look forward to it. Thanks so much, Scott.

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