96 | Navigating Mental Health & Wellness in the Post-Pandemic Workplace | Donna Reilly

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

Stop and ask and listen to what employees want and take a long-term approach in terms of investment. Stay away from the sticky plasters. So listen to what they want and take that longer-term approach to anything that you're going to introduce, because that's when you'll get the biggest dividend.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Firstly, as I always do, a little thank you to our friend and sponsor Workvivo. If you are looking at hybrid working and you're thinking about how you're going to maintain that connection, which is something that I should have been talking about loads recently, that whole idea of, of building and maintaining really powerful connections with people. If you're wondering how to do that, then perhaps one part of that strategy could be what you're you're looking at doing online. And if it is, then workvivo.com is the place to go for a bit more information on them. And you'll hear a bit more from them later too. Now it is the 31st of January, and about 10 days ago, we got the nod here in Ireland that they were basically getting rid of most of the rules that we had in place, mask wearing and social distancing and everything else. And a big part of that was, and you can start going back to work. Now, What was really strange was that when we first went into this lockdown, it seemed that it happened overnight. I mean, literally, you were in work on the Thursday and on the Friday, don't come to work anymore, stay at home, do not go, you know, 2 kilometers from your house. And we did the same going the other way. So it was kind of one day we were all masks and social distancing, and the next day we were, yeah, go back to the office, all that's gone. And you know, we'll see where we get to. Now, I think, well, certainly, I don't even think, I know I went into town on Saturday evening to celebrate a friend's 50th. And we were sitting outside a bar. But to get a drink or to pop in to pop to the toilet, you had to walk through the bar. And it was mayhem. It was utter mayhem. And I definitely felt a bit anxious. I'm not an anxious person generally. But I definitely did feel a little bit anxious, just about being in among all those people. And I think that anxiousness is something that a lot of people are probably suffering or certainly thinking about, or it's there. And I've kind of described it as maybe not something that you're, you know, you're, you're rocking back and forth crying in the corner of the room. But that there's, there's kind of a hum of anxiousness that's nearly there all the time, a heightened awareness or a heightened sense of something, something not being just quite right. So I'm really pleased to welcome to the podcast today, Donna Riley of Donna Riley Wellness. Donna is a wellness coach and consultant. And I'm hoping that we'll get into some of those areas in a bit more detail. So Donna, you're very welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. And thanks for having me.

Brilliant stuff. Listen, why don't we kick off like we always do by getting you to maybe tell us a little bit about you, your background, and what you're doing today?

Yeah, sure. Delighted. So yeah, as you said, my name is Donna, I'm the owner of Donna Reilly Wellness. And I guess personally, I'm married with 3 young kids. So there's 10, 7, and 2. So yes, life is busy and with my own business, but yes, managing to juggle it all and stay above board, probably touch on that later on when we move to kind of hints and tips, but I worked in HR in financial services for 16 years and spent a lot of time in the HR business partner role, which I absolutely loved. And I'd say about 7 years ago, I stumbled upon wellness or wellbeing. And I remember going to an event where it was spoken about, and I just got this little bubble of excitement in my stomach. And I'm a big fan of following your gut. And I was like, oh, there's something about this. And anyway, fell in love with it and became a huge passion area of mine. And I was really, really fortunate to be able to introduce well-being into where I worked in different business areas that I supported. So delighted to do that, but I found that as my job got a bit bigger, I moved further, further away from it, and I was bringing other people in to, to look after the kind of well-being agenda. So I was on my third maternity leave and, um, just had a bit of time to reflect and thought, you know what, why don't I just give this a go? Why don't I just follow my passion and see where it brings me? And which is what I did. So I took a huge leap of faith and set up my own business, um, in March 2020, which was literally just as the country closed down. I was all ready to go. So yeah, as with everybody, I think 20— the last couple years been a bit of a blur. Um, lots of perseverance, lots of self-doubt, but also mixed with self-motivation. And thankfully it's all going well. So what I do is mainly 3 things. I do one-to-one coaching, predominantly with women actually, which is interesting, around kind of burnout and stress and overwhelm and career direction. Then I work with teams, doing a lot of team coaching and development, specifically I guess around that connection piece at the moment and then spent a lot of my time in this space. So designing and delivering kind of different wellness workshops and kind of longer wellbeing programs for organizations. And I guess specifically right now focusing on that transition to hybrid working or return to the office or blended working. So yeah, spending a lot of time with groups in this space and yeah, it's fascinating and challenging, but great to be able to offer some help or feel that I'm supporting them in some way, shape, or form.

Yeah, and I guess no two organizations or teams or indeed individuals are the same. So it must be a very, very rewarding career.

Yes, very rewarding. Very, very rewarding. And I'm delighted that I took the leap. And I haven't looked back. Love what I do. I guess I definitely underestimated the challenges of being self-employed, which I'm sure you can agree with, and having your own business. But nothing has made me look a different way or turn a different corner. So delighted that I'm on the path that I'm on, particularly now at the moment.

Brilliant. I think, you know what, whenever you do run your own business, I think that doing something that you're really, really passionate about, you know, we don't, we don't run our own companies to do something that we hate. And I think when you can do something you love, it makes you a better person as well for your clients to work with. So that's, that's powerful. If we go back to the intro, what I was talking about, you know, we seem to have gone from being masked up and socially distanced, sitting at home at our dining room tables or in our sheds in our garden or wherever we are. And then suddenly the very next day, somebody saying, "Well, you can go back to work now." What impact do you think that's had on people's psyche, I guess?

Oh, that's a great question. I actually think, so from the groups that I've been working with in this space, there's kind of two different, I guess, categories of how people are feeling. You've You have one group of people who are really, really excited, cannot wait to get a break from the house, a break from remote working, see people in the flesh, and actually just to get a bit more normality into their life, or whatever normal feels for them. But then you have another group of people who are extremely anxious, nervous. Definitely seen a lot of overwhelm for people for a few different reasons, either concerned about contracting COVID, which is absolutely a genuine concern that people would have, seeing people in person and how they'll get back to that informal way of just having a conversation and communicating with each other. And then I think the biggest concern that I hear from that group of people is the impact it's going to have on the balance that they currently have from a work and life perspective. So they've got into this nice little routine and how will we change and how will that flex? So I think, and you kind of alluded to it earlier on, I actually think it was easier for people going into lockdown because it was the same day, same set of rules, everybody has to abide, all of this together. Whereas now, although the restrictions lifted, a lot of organizations are taking their time. So I have sessions booked in for May doing the return to the office for groups. So a lot of organizations are going, 'Right, let's not rush this, let's try and get it right.' So I feel that even within households or groups of friends, you're going to have different approaches, different policies, procedures depending on where they work. So yeah, Definitely a challenging time for those who are faced with a lot of trepidation around that return to the workplace.

And do you get a sense that given the different needs of those different groups— and you said that the ones are really keen to get back. And maybe, I think certainly in my experience, there may be people who are at the beginning of their careers, particularly who've going out in town, being among people, learning from people more experienced than they are. That's the one group. And then on the other hand, maybe there's people like me who've got older kids, kids who actually, this is fine, I've got my pals and I go out with them and it's okay, I don't need to be in an office environment. Do you think there's much kind of angst between them? Or, you know, do you think when the groups are looking at each other, they're going, well, you know, you need this and I need that, and, you know, we're at odds with each other as groups? Or how's that all panning out?

So I can only talk from my experience. And I guess in anything I do, I always try and say to people that although you may be feeling a certain way, Everybody interprets situations and reacts very, very differently. So I always try and show them insights into the other group and vice versa. But then you, again, you have a third layer of people who haven't left the office. And they're saying, well, hang on now. Who do you all think you are coming back disturbing my peace and my routine? And interestingly, last September when I spoke to those groups, they would have said the noise levels, the levels of disruptions went through the roof. They couldn't concentrate in their work. So it's, I think, depending on the organization, there's a few different elements at play. But I guess for me in my capacity, what I try to do I would just say, look, you have a set of concerns or how you interpret it, and the return to office is going to be your way, but please have an acknowledgement for others. And would probably give them examples or encourage some conversation around that. And mostly I'd say the groups are very open to say, I'm excited or I'm nervous. So already people are going, she's in my team, she's feeling nervous. Wow, I never thought that. So I guess it's just trying to show them the other side of the coin or show them that there's different perspectives out there in terms of the return to the workplace.

Yeah, I love that, that whole idea of empathy, I guess, thinking about people in other areas. And I actually, you know what, that group of people, that third group of people that have been in the office all the time, I think they largely get forgotten about. I mean, I certainly, until you said it there, I suddenly went, oh yeah, I'd forgotten about them. I bet lots of organizations do, but they're as impacted as anybody coming back to the office, I guess, aren't they?

Yeah, I was with a group last weekend, a group of those individuals, and they are burnt out. It's been a relentless pace for them, and they nearly had a bit of— I guess would have loved to have days where they worked remotely or where they would have got a chance to go for a walk during lunchtime. So for me, and you're right, not that the organization forgets them, but I feel that when we're having this conversation, we forget about them. So it's important just to highlight those individuals as well.

And I think probably all of this, I think, tracks really nicely into that whole idea of this thing that we see now happening, the Great Resignation, as it's been termed, that was it, 60% of people are going to leave their jobs and get a new job in the next 12 to 18 months. I think it's really interesting. I've certainly got a perspective on why that is. But I wonder, from your perspective, do you think the Great Resignation is actually something right now, or is it just a symptom of a bigger problem that's always been there? Is this just the kind of the the spot cracking through the skin, to use a horrible analogy. Is that what it is? It's just become a big boil and it needs to get sorted.

Oh, yeah. Again, it's something that I'm dipping my toe in the water of around from a research perspective. But interestingly, I saw this lovely graphic the other day, which definitely resonated with me, where it said, instead of calling it the Great Resignation, why don't we call it the Great Awakening? Or the great realization, or the great rejuvenation, or the great evaluation. And I think that's what it is for people and for organizations. But I talk about the people first. I feel that they've just had time out to think, what was I doing during that commute, or working those long hours? Or I now know what's really important to me in life. Actually having that quality of time at home is something that I need to prioritize. So I feel that people have had lots of time for reflection in how they structure their lives and how work fits into that. So again, on— after that reflection, let's go, right, who— which organization would align to those needs that I now want? Which again means that people are going to leave. Or you'll have a population which you spoke about that are experiencing burnout. So there's definitely some industries out there that haven't— have been going at a relentless pace since day one, and you do see that people are going, right, they need a break, I'm opting out of my career for a period of time. So I do feel self-reflection and what they've been through is definitely a catalyst for the Great Resignation or Great Awakening, whatever you want to call it. And I think from an organization perspective, they're learning too. And I'll probably say this a couple of times, and I'm not, I'm not being paid to promote the organization side of things, but I do feel that they were probably always in a cycle where they turned down requests for remote working or turned down requests for work from home requests or work from home, um, asks because they just couldn't see that it worked. Well, now that they've seen that they have to make it work, but there's still learning and they're probably still on that catch-up around introducing policies and procedures to allow a bit more flexibility. Some people may be able to offer that 100% basis or— and I've seen some organizations like, come back whenever you want, you choose— where bigger, more complex organizations are going, oh, we need a 3-2-day structure. So I do feel for organizations, they've had time to reflect and they're now trying to catch up from a policy perspective. I think for me with the Great Resignation, some of the research will say that you may see a quick increase in attrition, but it should steady itself out in a couple years. So while one person leaves one role to go another place, then another person will take your role. So it's going to be a bit of a swings around a bit effect, but it's going to have a period of pain until it all kind of bottoms itself out. But I do feel From an organization perspective, definitely was that bubble boiling that potentially they now have to address. But from an employee perspective, I think they just never thought that it was possible to have that flexibility or structure that they need. And now they feel it is possible and they want to go and get it.

And actually it is possible because we've done it. So when you were forced as an organization into doing it, we did it and it worked just fine. So if you're now gonna say to me, nope, we want you back in the office, 3 days a week, 4 days a week, and that's going to be our policy then. I know that that's BS. I know that it's not necessary. I know that we haven't been any less productive as a team working from hither and thither, wherever we've been. I know that that's the case. So I don't get why you want me back in the office. I can't see the reason for that. And I think probably, certainly for me, one of the reasons for this great awakening, if you want to call it that, great resignation, whatever you want to call it, is that the balance of power has somewhat shifted. I think you're right. I think people have had the time to go, what do I really want? I did an hour and a half each way each day. My sister lives near Brighton in the UK and she was traveling into Kingston. It was 2 hours on the train if she was lucky and made the connection, or 2 and a half hours each day, each way, 5 hours a day commuting. And I think people just accepted that because they went, well, sure, that's just what you do. And now they're going, "Actually, it doesn't need to be just what I do. And if, you know what, Mr. Employer, Mrs. Employer, if you're not willing to give me that flexibility to trust me that I know how to do my job really well and I can do it really well from wherever, then I'm going to go elsewhere. Thanks very much." Yeah, 200%. And I think that balance of power has never been there before. Because I think the balance of power has almost lain more with the employer than the employee. Well, we give you a job, we give you a salary, we give you an office and a laptop and all those things. Well, that's not enough anymore, is it?

And I, and I think logistically a lot of people in the last few years have moved, say, outside of Dublin, where they've moved back home or relocated or moved to a different country, where now when, as you said from last week, was like, let's start bringing you back in, they're like, absolutely not. Um, I now need to relocate or find a role that gives me that 100% flexibility, or I'll commute once a month, but no way and go back to 5 days a week. So I feel that people have already made the choice and it's worked for them till now. But now when we see that transition back to the workplace, they have a huge decision to make. Whereas, where do they leave that organization? And then absolutely you'll see more attrition. And then what do I get that's going to suit my new location or my new set of needs? Yeah, so it's really interesting. And I don't— I think we're only seeing scratching the surface with this. I think we'll see a lot more conversation on this over the next couple of months. Hi, I'm Cliona from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work where you work from. For more, see workvivo.com.

To talk about something you talked about briefly earlier on, we kind of, when we went into lockdowns the first time, it was black and white. You were either at home or you were in the office. And now with the hybrid thing, I think that's gonna bring a whole load more challenge when it comes to organizations working out what it is that we need as an organization and what you need as employees. I wonder if they're going through on that journey and through that transition phase that many organizations are in now. From a health and well-being perspective, what are some of the issues, do you think, that are going to arise for employers and employees? And how do they address some of those things?

I think for employers, they can no longer introduce a one-size-fits-all in terms of overall health and well-being. And what I mean by that is that You're going to have a hybrid workforce, so that kind of 'come down to the canteen for our exercise class,' that's gone because you're going to have a group of people that work remotely. So even logistically, from a health and wellbeing perspective, that one-size-fits-all is now turned on its head. But also that one-size-fits-all in terms of what people want is going to be radically different. So because of that self-reflection, people now go, 'Do you know what, I'm going to prioritise my social wellbeing.' No, it's financial wellbeing for me, or it's career wellbeing for me. Everybody has an awareness now of the health and wellbeing. And I will say that's probably for me the biggest positive of the last couple years, that particularly mental health is on the agenda. It's spoken about by organizations. They see the commercial value and obviously the employee value of introducing something from that perspective. So people have— employees have much more of awareness of what wellbeing means to them and what they need. So again, it's trying to develop something bespoke in terms of the needs of your employees, which is quite difficult. Also for employers, and again, the more the leaders, I guess it's parking sometimes how they feel about that transition to hybrid working because you might have a group of leaders or a leader that's like, I really don't want to do this, but I need to promote women in my team. I need to show all the positives of it and I need to get them back 2 or 3 days a week. So again, there's a lot of different feelings, I guess, going on for the leadership level. For employees, the biggest challenges I see from them, and there's a couple of things, For some of them, it's really valid concerns about health and safety in the workplace. How can you safeguard my health while I'm on site? So what's your policies, what's your procedures from that kind of sanitised health and safety perspective? What's the protocols in terms of meetings, interacting in corridors? So genuine concerns about that, and that's the things that are causing overwhelm for a lot of employees. Other ones then, it's around the commute, like what you said. I have now got used to having I'm spending really quality time at home where I either invest in my self-care or spend time with my family or my friends. I now have a commute to factor into my work-life balance. How am I going to do this? And how am I going to manage on the days where I'm not in the household as much as I normally was, trying to get everything done, trying to stay on top of things? So a lot of logistical concerns for employees around the structure of their days and weeks, but also that more concern around their overall health and wellbeing. And as I said before, mixing the groups and the different concerns that they have with that out of practice, when it's been so long since have to mix with groups, that there's some challenges that they fear they may face with that.

I find the out-of-practice one, I find absolutely fascinating that we've been so remote from people that being in a room with somebody in real life is like, "Well, no, I think it'll come back quite quickly when we get used to it again." But I do think people have, you're right to use your word, a bit of overwhelm with being back in a room with people. When you think about some of those challenges that you spoke about there from an employer and employee perspective, what are some of the things that employers and employees can do to address those things? And the one you said there, for example, was getting people down for a lunchtime yoga class in the canteen. That's plainly not going to work anymore because only half your staff are in the office. So in a situation like that, what are organizations doing to address things like that?

I would say listening to your employees first of all. So I guess, and I'm always conscious of saying this, but I do feel like it's true, organizations, and they absolutely have the employee's heart at the top of their agenda when they're into your center about wellbeing, but sometimes it can be that sticky plaster approach. What do they need right now? Come in for an hour to live a session where I'm going to just sit back Listen to what they want. Ask them. I always say to companies, did you ask them what they want? Like, for wellbeing, have you done a survey? Have you asked groups? Do you have champions on the ground kind of getting that kind of more informal feedback about what's going on for them? And people go, no, we just thought it'd be a good idea to introduce this. So, and again, doing it from the best place possible, they want to invest in employee wellbeing. So for me, it's saying, listen, listen to the concerns, ask them what they want. If you have a budget, invest that budget where you know it's going to have the maximum impact. Do a bit of analysis on, I guess, absence rates or engagement levels, what's going on beneath the surface there, and then ask them what they want. And then obviously trying to put different initiatives or programs in place to mitigate any concerns that they have. But taking that longer-term approach. So I guess back in 2020, there was a lot of sticky plaster initiatives which were worthwhile because we needed that, right? Knee-jerk reaction, we're working on what we need. Whereas From last year onwards, it's more thinking about that longer-term strategy. Go, right, we now understand the importance of investing in our employees' well-being. How are we going to do it to the best that we can? So how are we going to have that longer-term strategy that's seen as important as any other business strategy that you'd have to invest in their overall mental health and well-being? And I think there's a lovely opportunity for that, like new year, new way of working, wipe the slate clean. We're kind of out of panic mode, hopefully, towards all the world around us. And let's see going forward what that kind of hybrid well-being strategy will look like, which will be potentially saying, right, the yoga might be online for some while it's in person for the other, and then it might be doubling up on some of your efforts so that when the next group is in on-site, they get it face-to-face with other people, might get it online. So there's loads of lovely simple ways of mitigating those simple roadblocks, I guess, factors. But it's me bringing it up a level to have an actual long-term health and well-being strategy. And from now going forward, because it's a lovely opportunity, as they said, to start to introduce something more solid for them. And yeah, for employees, I guess for me it's preparation. And I say this to any group that I work with, don't go in blindly on your first day to the office. Take some time to prepare first. And so preparing, obviously from a logistical perspective, how are you physically going to get there? How are you going to manage your commute? Do you need to arrange different or more childcare? Or trying to figure out your morning or evening routine. So it's going to be change for people. I remember saying just to one group before, um, somebody said, I actually go to the gym from home, so I'm ready to go, but on the days I'm in the office, god, I'm gonna have to pack a bag, gonna have to figure out getting the different— so tiny little changes, but it's all about that preparation. But then there's the— I get the preparation from a more mental health and well-being perspective. So if you fear that sense of overwhelm, what are you overwhelmed about? What kind of practices can you introduce to create that more calm and, I guess, sense of control for you when it comes to actually stepping foot into the office. And simple things, again, I chat to groups about not being afraid to step and take a few deep breaths before you open that door for the first time, before you get out of the lift onto the floor where you know you're going to be faced with people that you haven't potentially seen in a couple of years. Take deep breaths, calm yourself. But there's so many ways that we can I guess, get in control of the situation through preparation, that it's not going to just hit us in the face on the first day when we're back in the office, that we've, I guess, taken time to anticipate challenges and have little nice kind of tools or ways to overcome them.

Yeah. And we've spoken about employers and employees, but of course, the group that often sits in the middle is that whole people leader group who I think you and I, we work together in in AIB, I was a comms business partner, you're an HR business partner, we saw that squeezed middle every day of the week, that they were getting it from above, they were getting it from below. And I think lots of organizations are now looking at that leadership group to play a really important and pivotal role in this move to a hybrid working model and expecting them to support and support their people. And to your point earlier, Donna, there are some leaders who are going, yeah, yeah, well, actually, I think this is the wrong thing to do, but I have to step up to the line and make sure that I'm seen as being supportive, but I just don't think it's the right thing to do. That's really difficult for them. And I think probably one of the things, and I've said this so many times over the past 20 years, what we often forget is that people leaders are also people. So we put all this pressure on them to help us and support the organizational messaging and bring your people with you on a journey. But we don't spend enough time, I don't think, necessarily thinking about them them as a group. So what role do they, as people leaders in the organization, have to play? And what extra support do you think that they need from organizations to be really successful themselves and in their roles?

Yeah. And I do fear that out of all levels across the organization, that kind of middle management are the ones that would keep me awake at night, are the ones that I would have definitely the biggest concern over. And thankfully, a lot of organizations realize that too, and there's investment in that. And I'll talk about that in a second. But I absolutely think you're right. So I think if you're Rewind back to 2020, I even forget what year it is sometimes.

It's been just crazy. 2 years, 2 years has just gone.

I always think I had a baby in 2019, so it was the year after that. That's literally how I think of how it was. But they took on that role of parent, of carer for their teams. They were Zooming them, MS Team, whatever it was. They were contacting them more regularly than they ever were and literally checking in on their mental health and how are you getting on? We're trying to find— it's funny, I always say leaders came into their team's homes all of a sudden. They knew who they were living with, where they were living, what their setup was, and did they have parents to talk to. Did they— they literally had to become a friend or a guardian or parent overnight. So they, they, they, they came into that role as that more caring role. Not that they didn't care before, but they— a lot more onus on them to check in on them, which was for 2020, I think was grand. And I do think there was a bit of a foot off the pedal in terms of targets targets, metrics, performance standards, because we're like, let's just get through. But I do feel there's a shift last year where everything else returned to normal. So right, well, no, we need to now make sure the business needs to be viable, so we're back on track in terms of you need to reach your targets. So the leaders then had, as you said, coming from above, but also still had that caring role for their team. So I think last year was probably more of a tough year for them than 2020 was because they really felt that squeeze. And for me, I guess, off going forward, they do need support. And sometimes I think for that group, it's just breaking it down. I feel like they, because they were in that real caring role for a long time, they feel the need to step in and solve problems for their teams and be with them on a journey and get whatever they're going through. But for me, it's kind of bringing it back and going Absolutely not. You have a role to listen. You have to listen. Absolutely. But then you signpost. You don't have to be the person that fixes. And I think for a lot of leaders, and when I say this, I do a session on positive mental health awareness with leaders. And when you say that, you can see them go, "And breathe. I don't have to fix. Wow." And that's sometimes all they need is that reminder going, you have— there's so much support available to you already, whether that be from an HR perspective, an EAP program, or different health and wellbeing initiatives. You signpost. So listen. Absolutely. And ask questions, but don't feel the pressure on you to help or— and fix is the wrong word, but you know what I mean— or I guess try to solve or try to fully support everyone in your team. There are other people there to help you. And the last thing that I always do in any session— and it's funny when I chat to organizations when I'm doing a session for managers and I'll say, right, and I always finish up by talking about their mental health and wellbeing, they're like, what? I'm like, well, if you think about it, you're asking them now to take on a role around supporting their team's mental health. As you just said, Scott McInnes, rightly so, they're individuals too, and it's just lovely to remind them of that and to go, here's some tips that you have now to really invest in and support your own mental health and wellbeing. So yeah, I do feel that they need support from above in terms of who's there for them, but also that gentle reminder that you don't need to be be a solver of everybody's problems. You've got a lot of internal and external support that will help you in that space.

I'm hearing that whole idea, and mental health is something you've now mentioned a couple of times, I'm going to get onto in a little while. But if you're a counselor or a therapist or a coach or any of those kinds of people who've had training in these things and understand the coping mechanisms and how to maybe take that feedback on board and not get burned out yourself, If you're just somebody that's leading a team of people, you may have had none of that insight, none of that education, none of those qualifications, and you're just expected to get on with it. So you've got 10 people maybe in your team piling their problems on you. God, that's got to be tough. Really tough. And how would you recommend to leaders that they deal with that?

I think they all need their own level of support, which again I think is easier said than done for definitely for organizations who struggle from a budget perspective. But who is their go-to? So whether that be an internal mentor, an internal coach, or is there ideally somebody external that's important? They need that avenue to offload, and it's not always for advice. Sometimes it's enough just to offload, to go 'Well, this is everything I've dealt with this week,' or 'This is what I'm going through,' in a confidential, safe space. That can be enough for them. And it's carrying it all around, that, that's where it can start to cause that stress for them. And I'm nearly touching my shoulders now as I say that, like, it's, it's that weight that they feel. And sometimes it's just enough having that support network, or one individual, or a couple of them that they can offload. That can be enough. And then, as I said before, it's having those initiatives or training or support that's specifically for that group. And if you think about it, And I'm sure you've, you've seen this well, a lot of wellness initiatives are for employees. It's very rare you see wellness initiatives that are specifically for managers. Um, it's a different session, but I do— it's so beneficial for them as a group to come out and have time out to reflect, talk, and get some kind of different tips and techniques or suggestions to support their own well-being as well.

Yeah, I think tooling them up is really, really important to give them the tools and the techniques to be able to deal with that stuff, but also to put them in a group of peers who are struggling maybe with the same issues and for them to realize, oh, it's not just me. There's probably some sense of relief in that, that, you know, I had exactly the same thing last week and I didn't handle it very well either. Oh, good. So it wasn't just me then. That's brilliant. You know, and that's powerful.

Hard to do in a virtual setting.

Yeah.

And I always say, and it's funny, sometimes the manager groups can be the quietest groups that I deal with, but I always say, please get involved. Out, even if it's in the chat, by saying yes or no. Because genuinely, if you can disclose how you feel or what you're struggling with, and someone else on this call would be like, oh, well, it's not only me, particularly for that manager group. And Jen, once you can get the chat going at the start, you're grand. But I guess it's just trying to create that safe space for them that it's okay to talk.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. So let's think about employees for a little bit because I think that quite often in organizations, rightly or wrongly, it's very easy to look up the hill, up the organization and say, "Well, what are you doing for me? My mental health isn't great, or I'm stuck at home with 3 kids, or I'm in a 2-bed apartment with a dog, or I'm having to live back at home with my parents because I couldn't pay my rent. What are you doing for me?" And that's a really easy go-to place. But I wonder What do you think? Is there a responsibility on individuals as employees as well to be doing something to help themselves?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I mentioned this to you before in one of our previous discussions that I always— honestly, I feel that the fundamental approach that organizations should take in terms of wellbeing is, I will provide all the tools you need, all the initial needs, but employees have to want to invest in their overall wellbeing. And I do feel the role of the organization is to supply whatever that might be, as in, I guess, people that they can go to or support them or different initiatives or different programs or different things, internal or external to the organization. But they need to want to invest. They need to either want to create change if that's what they want, or just take time to invest in us or want to support and build their own wellbeing. 100%, there's a huge role in employees that, that's when it's funny, the people that come to the sessions get that. But I always think about the people that don't come going, what's stopping them? Why aren't they coming? And again, obviously after sessions, someone come back and go, that was great, I did that. And that might help, but it always fascinates me where you might have an organization of 200, you might get 50 people showing up and going, what about the other 150? Now, obviously I get people's workloads and different shift patterns 100%. But I always do wonder, go, wonder what's stopping them. But I do believe that it's that need, that importance that they place on their overall well-being. And it's going to be different for all groups.

And that whole idea that, you know, some of that 150 people that didn't go to your session are probably going, oh, that little fluffy nonsense, health and well-being rubbish. They're probably thinking that, but then in the same breath they're probably giving out to a colleague or to their boss that they're not in great shape. And I think there is an onus on people to do— exactly to your point, there is an onus on people to do something for themselves with the tools that perhaps their organization has given them.

And the time that the organization gives. I do— my biggest hope is that those 150, there may be some of them that go, I'm fine. I have it sorted. I invest in it regularly. And I'm humming in terms of my well-being. So I do cross my fingers and have that hope for Daphne and the majority, but I do— organizations understand now that they need to create space and time. And what I'm seeing a lot is over the last couple years it was always lunchtime sessions, and they've realized they don't work. That's a sacred time now for employees. When you're in the office, that'll be a time where you're twiddling your thumbs, you have your sandwich at your desk, you've done your walk, you're like, what else will I do? Whereas now, working remotely, that hour at lunchtime is sacred. That's your time for exercise, run to the shops, do a bit of housework, or just take time for yourself. So they don't want to sit at the desk desk. They're sitting at their desk for nearly 8 hours a day, looking at a screen for 8 hours a day. They can't do that over lunchtime as well. So I think how organizations offer the tools and support is shifting too. And yeah, it's fascinating to see that change happen too.

Okay, interesting. One thing that you've talked about a couple of times that I mentioned earlier is this whole area of mental health. And this seemingly— I think we can all feel a sense of some kind of impending mental health crisis. And I think we're starting to see roots of that growing at the moment. But I think it's not going to be for a few years that we'll really probably get the full force of what that mental health crisis is or what it's going to look like. I wonder from your perspective, how can we stop that happening? Or is it too late, do you think? Are we on that train already and we're heading out the station?

That's a tricky one. It's a tricky one because I wish I had a crystal ball and I could see into the future. But I guess all I can deal with is what I hear and see now. And it's interesting because when I'm chatting to groups now, we do loads of different sessions, but particularly when I'm doing this one on that return to the workplace, blended hybrid working, I would say it's a 60/40 mix, probably a little bit more this time around September, a bit more 50/50, but definitely more 60/40, 70/30 on excitement and positivity and happiness. So then when I'm hearing that and then I hear other bits of research where we're only scratching the surface in terms of the mental health crisis that's coming our way, I'm going, but I'm not seeing that now. In fairness, I'm with them an hour for out of their whole day, out of their whole week again. But yeah, it's a, it's a really difficult one to answer. But, and again, I'm talking to them virtually obviously as well, I'm not sitting in front of them. I think you can pick up a lot more from when you're in front of them in terms of body language perspective. I don't think we'll see the impact until we're fully, if we ever fully, at the other end. I do feel we're still in that bit of survival mode, and even with restrictions leaving, and I do I do feel people are still going, as you said, with that impending, just that tense feeling. I don't think we fully allowed ourselves to relax. And you know yourself, if I take the example of an accident or a car crash, as morbid as it is, you don't sometimes realize the impact straight away because you're still in flight or fight, or you're still in shock, or you're still tense. It's only when you allow your body to relax and your mind to relax, then the impact hits you. And I do feel that that's the same where we are now. It's tricky to answer because I don't think people have really allowed themselves the permission to relax and internalize it for themselves. Obviously, there's groups that already know because they've been really sadly impacted from loss or job loss or different reasons, more, I guess, severe implications that they've had to deal with now. But for others, and which I would include myself quite gratefully in, I don't think it's until we've come out the other side and we allow ourselves that sense of relaxation that we'll realize and be able to assess any sort of damage that's been made. I feel that from an employer perspective, and I said this earlier, it's on the agenda, it's going nowhere. It landed on the agenda out of nowhere, but I do feel that now they know we need to invest in this. So I don't think it's going anywhere. But then I feel from external to the organization, and I'm not a political I'm not going to go down that path, but when I see different waiting lists for services and trying to get access to services that people need, that's when I start to worry. That's when I go, oh God, I know more people are going to potentially need these services, but they're not readily available. So I guess that's where my head would be at the moment in terms of, if something comes, are we able to deal with it? Are we able to support people through it?

Okay, brilliant. I mean, I know certainly from conversations that I'm having with friends and colleagues that it's something that we talk about now. And I think, you know, you'd probably say it as well, that blokes are the worst at talking about mental health and how they're feeling and that kind of thing. I'm not. I'll spill my guts at any given opportunity happily. But I definitely think it's on the agenda, you know, and it's something that now has become a bit like domestic violence, has I think become more open to being talked about. I think mental health is the same. And, you know, that's good. I think you said that you made the point earlier, if that's all that came out of COVID that we talk about these things now more openly, then that's a That's an absolute win. Right. Let's not finish on that. Last question, conscious of time. Let's finish on this. Two really practical things. If you think about it from an employer and an employee perspective, what would be the two things, one for each, that you think could make the biggest difference right now if people were to stop listening to this podcast, go to work tomorrow, and do something? What would those two things be?

Where will I go for my menu of tools? And I think for us, that would— employers, can I do two?

And go on then, go on then.

To truly listen. And I'm like, the people that run well-being in organizations are doing it because they— it's, it's in their heart and they know it. But I'm going to listen. Stop and ask and listen to what employees want. And take a long-term approach in terms of investments. Don't— stay away from the sticky plasters. So listen to what they want and take that longer-term approach and anything that you're going to introduce, because that's when you'll get the biggest dividend, I feel. Employees— so I'm talking about individuals, whether you're an employee or not— not to forget yourself. And I talk about this constantly, and I know self-care is everywhere, and it's quite, I guess, it's quite something that's spoken about a lot on social media. So, and it's— there's a lot of tendency for self-comparison when it comes to how people are minding themselves. So I always say to people is avoid the need for self-comparison. And focus on you. You know you best. Try and just take baby steps and small nuggets of time out of your day to do something that's going to just reinvest, re-energize, re-nourish, replenish yourself. People struggle with that, which sounds bizarre to many, um, but I always ask people to say, what is it that you love to do? What is it that when you're doing it, you're just in flow, you're fully immersed in the activity, you're not thinking about the to-do list or the housework or the emails? That is a really good indication that's something that's going to work for you when you feel that stress level starting to increase or when you get that nugget of time out in your day. Do something just for you, not throw yourself as a partner, friend, or mother, son, or daughter, just something for you. For me, as you try and transition through change, people can deprioritize themselves as they realize other people are impacted by the change, but also they can get caught up in the change and forget to really take time out just to check in on themselves and their energy levels. Yeah, so take time for you. Don't be afraid to take time for you.

Brilliant stuff. Listen, thank you, Donna, for taking the time today. I really, really appreciate it. Everybody else listening, if you have got 2 seconds and you've enjoyed this episode with Donna, or indeed with any of my other guests, then I would love it if you could please give us a rating and perhaps a bit of feedback on Apple Podcasts. It really helps in getting the podcast out there and growing our listener base and bringing brilliant speakers like Donna to even more people. So Donna, thanks a million for joining us, and we'll see you again soon.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.