97 | Mastering Communication in the Hybrid Workplace: Essential Skills for Effective Leadership | Peter Hopwood

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

All these very, very small things we can do, and we've spoken a lot about them today, are really important. But I would say on the top there is empathy, valuing not just what they do at work, but the things out of work. You know, how they're doing.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Firstly, as I always do, a quick hello and thank you and a shout out to our friend and sponsor Workvivo for their continued support of the podcast. We're going to be talking today a lot about communications and leader comms. And if communications is something you're struggling with, then you should pop along to workvivo.com and have a little look at what they can offer you'll hear a little bit more about them later on. So, we know as we come back out of what has been a very funny period over the past couple of years with lockdowns and stay-at-homes and hybrid working and all of that, that actually that kind of an idea of a funny period probably isn't going to change anytime soon as organizations start to kind of transition back to hybrid, to having half the team in the office one day and half the next day and 60/40 models and all that stuff. So, you know, for me, as somebody that lives, eats, sleeps, breathes communications every day of the week on behalf of our clients, I know how important getting that right is, how critically important that is. And I think that really boils down to how good often your leaders are at communicating, at making themselves understood, at bringing empathy and understanding about all those things that really help people in your organization to feel part of that organization, to feel as though what they're doing every day is making a difference. And leaders play a really, really big role in that. So I'm delighted to be joined today by Peter Hopwood, who is an executive speaking coach. He's been a TEDx speaker. I'll let you tell, or let him tell you a little bit more about that in a second. But we wanted to delve in today very much to the role of leaders and very practically what leaders can do to be better communicators as we move into this world of hybrid. So, Peter, good morning. Thanks for joining.

Good morning. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's great to finally do this together.

I know, I know. We've been a while getting to it, haven't we?

Yeah, but we've made it. We made it in the end.

We're here. And as we just said a minute ago, we're going to kill it for the next hour. So, yeah, let's put that out there. So, listen, before we get going, Why don't you just tell us a little bit about you, where you've come from and what you do today?

Yes, I mean, essentially, so I— that was a great introduction. And essentially, I help people tell better stories. So I help people, brands, professionals, teams to really find the story to start off with, nurture that story, and then deliver it in the right way. So that could be anything from helping a TEDx speaker who is you know, really preparing himself or herself for that 15, 16, 17 minutes of fame, making sure that, you know, the messages are really clear and they come across really, really well. Or it could mean a CEO or a team leader, mid-management, let's say, who has certain issues in terms of delivering their messages in the right way and also the right messages as well. So it could be that, or simply it could be a CEO who is maybe appearing at a conference and needs to, you know, again, make sure that session that he or she has comes across in the right way, right messages, and then when people leave, they remember the right things for the right reasons. So as I say, really helping teams, professionals find those stories and then deliver them in a way that connects and delivers them in a way that people will remember for the right reasons.

Brilliant, and I think that's actually been never more important than, I mean, getting down to that pithy, what it is I want you to take away from this meeting, this all hands, this one-to-one, that has never been, I don't believe, more important than it is today. I think, as I said in my intro, when we come from 2 years of remote working back into hybrid, I know that's had a massive, massive impact on teams. I wonder from your perspective, what have you seen in terms of how it impacted how leaders communicated and what do you think were some of the challenges that they faced? I mean, literally overnight we were dropped.

Absolutely.

Into this brand new world and people were like, Jesus, I don't know how to do any of this. So what were some of the challenges?

So listen, I mean, naturally communication before all of this happened 18, 20 months ago, 2 years ago, communication naturally always important, always important whether you're a leader, whether you're not a leader, the way you share your messages so that people are clear about what you say, they understand what you say, and they get the messages as well, right? Suddenly we jump, we're kind of forced into this, this crazy little world— not a little world, big world— um, of communicating through this, this, this screen, this box, this, these virtual exchanges. And so many things change, many things are different, right? We kind of like went into this thinking, you know, because it's a difference, because it's a change, because it's, it's not face to face, it takes away many things. And, and that's absolutely true, it takes a lot of the signals because the signals that we see when we're face-to-face in person, we can see someone, we can see how they move, we can see their body, we can smell them. Hopefully they smell good. I'm sure they do. I'm sure you do as well. But we can see how they breathe. Yes, we have all these other distractions as well, but that's part of that interaction that we've done ever since man was created, right? Okay, and then suddenly we're on this screen, so many things are taken away, but there are a lot of things that we can do that actually are in our control, right? So for example, this, this screen, right? So all our signals that we share when we're face to face, here on, you know, within, with, in front of a screen, it's almost like we have to amplify certain things. So we have to amplify our reactions. We have to amplify how we're, how our facial expressions come across. We have to be aware of how people see us, right? Because again, looking at the screen, if you're face-to-face, you have all these other distractions going on, okay? And then, you know, 80% of the time, probably 70, 80% of the time, you're actually looking at someone's face. Here, 90% of the time, nearly more than 90% of the time, we're looking at each other straight head-on. So I can see more, it's almost more intimate than it is face-to-face, right?

Yet it doesn't feel it.

Correct, absolutely. So we really have to be aware. The key really is being aware and people that, you know, leaders that are more aware of how they're coming across. How people see them, how they look in their frame, what's behind them, the lighting, the sound, the quality of the sound, the voice, how they're sharing their messages, how concise they are, how clear they are. Again, here online, there are so many things that are different, like time. We spoke about this before in a chat, but I mean, we could probably talk about this, we could do a whole episode on this in fact, but time in the real world is important for everybody. Time for a leader is even more important, let's say, right? On screen in these virtual exchanges, time for everybody is much more important, strangely enough to say, than in the real world because our attention here, our attention span is far shorter. Whenever we look at a screen, we're competing with other things. If you think about other things that are on a screen like Netflix, like movies, like even on your mobile phone, Apps, everything is designed to grab your attention and to keep your attention and to keep you interested and to keep you intrigued. And they do that with sound, they do that with music, they do that with images, colors, things swiping, moving, all these pings, all this stuff, right? We are competing with that now 'cause we're on a screen, right? So we have to really make sure the things we share are more concise, more to the point, get people feeling like they're engaged, that connection. This is all about connection. So, so from what I've seen is leaders that are really aware of how they come across, or maybe even just trying to work out how they come across— I'm not saying that leaders, leaders that are not doing it well, um, you know, aren't, aren't actually on the right path, But the first thing is being aware of how you show up and then working on it, right? And then looking for that connection. Here it's more about connection than anything else. If we can work on that, or leaders that are certainly working on that are certainly coming up trumps when it comes to getting the engagement better and getting, not a buy-in from who they're speaking to, but just getting that chemistry, a stronger chemistry. And these are the foundations, as we all know, as you know very well as well, the foundations to something bigger. It doesn't guarantee success naturally, but it helps with that relationship. And this is me, my job, your job, it's all about building these relationships. So yeah, it's building a connection, building a relationship, seeing this, this screen, the work we do that we had to jump into all of a sudden as something good. And it can work for us.

And a couple of things spring to mind from what you just said there, Peter. And one is that whole idea of amplifying, of turning up. I know that on the podcast, listeners, you can't see Peter, but Peter is wildly gesticulating with his hands. He has turned up the body language to the max. And actually, it does make it a bit more engaging. I think there's There's that piece to think about. I think there is the awareness piece to think about. Even just little things about what's in your background, what's, what's getting, you know, what's, what's drawing people's attention. They're not things necessarily that I think the organizations would have trained their leaders in. I think that what happened is in the moment on wherever you live in the world, whenever your lockdown first happened in March, you know, 2020-ish, the company said, okay, well, everyone's online now. Crack on. And I've— the thing that I've spoken about probably most in the past few months is this whole idea of square peg in round hole. We took what we did in the office, whether it be a one-to-one or a team meeting, and we did it exactly the same way, but we just used Zoom or Teams or Webex or whatever your VC poison is. We just did it the same, and it doesn't necessarily work. And I think that that word, Peter, you used there awareness is something that's often in incredibly short supply. I'll just keep doing it the way I've always done it because it's the way I've always done it and it's always worked. And I think that leaders, when they get to that place, when there is that lack of awareness, they don't build, they don't give themselves the opportunity to get better. And that for me is critical.

Absolutely. And it reminds me of what you just said there. It reminds me of a team that I'm working with recently, right now, in fact, a sales team, sales executives. And so, we're looking at let's say sales professionals that have always been good at what they do, right? Sales professionals in person, over the phone, they know the techniques, they know the strategies, they do it well. Suddenly, suddenly have to change and come to, you know, stand in front of a screen, in front of a camera and do the same thing. And many, many have found it not a struggle, but many have found it a challenge. And so other people, let's say that maybe in person were not excelling as strong sales professionals, let's say, or maybe not as good as perhaps some of the others, online, because they have really thought about, again, awareness, thought about how they're coming across, thought about how we're gonna connect, how we're gonna create this chemistry just through a camera lens. How can we do that? And the ones that are doing that are almost like popping up out of the blue as these, you know, new sales heroes that would not have perhaps been able to excel in the real in-person world. You see what I mean? So, so it's kind of, it's really strange and it's, but it's good. And I think if you do it well here, if you can get this chemistry going here, if you can really build on, on how you're communicating here, it can only help you. When it comes to the real world, when it comes to going back to— or not going back to, or just, you know, building on your in-person sales skills or communication skills. If you can do it well here, but as I say, keeping things concise, keeping things more— keeping things with— giving things more clarity, making sure that you're what you're saying isn't kind of mumbo-jumbo, it's to the point, because we don't have time here, people can just click and move away. So as I say, things here, if you can build on this here, and again, you can see how I'm moving, this isn't, you know, this is something that I've worked on, it's something that I make sure I want you to see my hands moving here up to my, below my shoulders and just above my chest. I want you to, to get the impression that I'm listening. Well, I am listening to you, but you can see all through my body language.

You just let it go there. I want you to get the impression that I'm listening to you.

But it's intentional. And because naturally we all have our own kind of Zoom spots at home or wherever we are, and this is mine here. And so we get into the swing of things when we have to speak and move when we're in front of the lens. So this is all intentional. So these, even just these skills here, if you boost those up a few notches, when it comes to in-person meetings or in-person communication, you know, you'll be, you will be more concise. You will have more of an awareness of how you show up and how people perceive you through your movements. Through your voice, through the way you look at the camera and the way you look at someone. Again, this great notion of how you look at someone determines how— will help determine their perception of you and how they feel, right? So I can— so I just by looking at you, you're getting a perception of of me through the way I look at you, through the way I move, through the way I'm kind of hopefully giving you a sense that I'm curious about this conversation, right? So, so how we look at somebody can really determine how a conversation can actually unfold. Hi, I'm Klyna from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work from. For more, see workvivo.com.

And I think what's wonderful is that we, I think lots of people would see the whole VidConf thing as we're doing now as a barrier, as something that's made communications worse. But I think actually to your point, and I hadn't thought about it from that perspective, that actually if we can be really good on here, it makes us really, really good when we get back in person, because we've really focused on that whole idea of just being a little bit tighter around our messages, of being a bit more focused, of not taking an hour to say something that can take 15 minutes. So that's all positive stuff.

I fully agree. And again, it reminds me again of the things we can control and the things we can't. Here again, we hear it all the time. I hear yesterday someone sent me a message and said to me, you know, I'm fed up with this, um, virtual BS, you know, I'm fed up with it. But okay, you know, I didn't reply, but in my mind I'm thinking, actually, there are a lot of people that are not fed up with it because they've made it work for them. If you can do it well and if you can do it good, and still, unfortunately, that, you know, there are many— most of us, most of us, I mean, a lot of people and teams and brands and companies are maybe not doing it that well. So if you do it well, you're standing out, right? You're standing out in this whole wave of Zoom and virtual exchanges. If I ask you now, how many Zoom calls did you have last week? I don't know how many you would say, probably quite a lot, perhaps. How many of those do you remember? Not so many. And how many of those really stood out for you? Probably even less. So if we can, if we can stand out, if we can do this really good, do this really well, we, we can have that kind of competitive advantage. What you even, what you see. So there are, so again, a meeting. If I, if we were to have a meeting, right, if I came to you, or maybe you came to me, I came to your office, maybe we met in a hotel, um, lobby or a co-working space, um, most of the time it wouldn't be— well, it wouldn't be necessarily my, my field, my area, right? My physical area. It might be yours, or if you came to me, it would be mine and it wouldn't be yours, or it might be a neutral space, right? So we don't really have control over really where we are. Even on stage, if you're speaking on stage at a conference or a or, um, uh, you know, session somewhere. Again, that space is not your space. You're, you're going to that space which is already designated, and you have to work with what you have. Here we are fully 100% in control of what people see through that lens, right? So I— what people see now, I mean, it's my corner of where I live, it's my, my corner of my, my living room, and I, you know, everything here I've, I make sure I'm, well, I'm, I'm satisfied, I'm happy with what I'm sharing through that lens, right? But I, I, I've got full control over it like you have as well. Everything I see, everything I see from, okay, naturally from what you wear, from the way you brush your hair, your, your glasses, your, your, the, the, the, the, the room you're in right now, the light, everything there is within your control. So that's the good thing. That's a really good thing because outside in the real world, I keep saying real world, we don't have that control. So it's not a question of manipulating what people see. It's just controlling what you share, which will hopefully create a better outcome in the minds of the people that are listening and looking at you. That's all it is. And that's a good thing. Yeah.

I guess it's the old control the controllables. And before we move on, a quick example of that, a very, very good friend of mine, my son's godfather, lives in the UK. And he was showing me only last week, actually, he has a hook, a picture hook in a bit, a little like you have, you know, you have a picture in the background there. But he'll change the picture depending on the conversation he's having, and who he's having it with. So, if it's going to be a creative type discussion, he'll change the picture for that. If it's more about numbers, he'll change it to be more fact-based. If it's going to be something else, he'll change. He's got 5 or 6 pictures on the floor beside his desk, and he'll change the picture depending on what he wants the conversation to be, which I thought was mental until we just had that conversation there. And now I think he's a genius. Absolutely.

And you can switch it as well. I mean, I know I watch live UK TV and we see them constantly, we see interviews, well, for the last 2 years, interviews remotely, right? And it's amazing to see how many actually professionals or having an interview on live TV, national TV, haven't thought about what people see behind, right? Bookshelves is a classic, naturally. But you see, you can often see bookshelves that look like a mess. Right? And that just gives this impression, it just gives this kind of psychological impression in our minds, people looking at this person who maybe haven't got a biased opinion or maybe a biased opinion of them because they're a politician or because they're in the field they're in, right? When we see that, you know, you, you, and then others that are maybe again figured out an image that, that really reflects the messages they're sharing, right? And you'd be surprised again how many turn up on live TV, national TV, and their backgrounds are a mess. They're in a suit, they look good, they come across well, but behind them there's this kind of thing that isn't— it just isn't working. And I found there was actually— I heard on a podcast not so long ago, there's this Twitter account, it's called Rate My Room, I think, something like that, Rate My Room. And it's literally, um, it's a Twitter account. Somebody has literally created this account where people can send in images of people that have had interviews on TV, national TV, and they rate the room. So they rate what's behind them. So they give them, what is it, 2 out of 10 and a few comments, or 10 out of 10, a few comments. But it's, it's so It's, it's so intriguing how this plays just as much into that perception and into that trust and credibility of a person as much as what they actually say.

Yeah, very interesting. Very, very interesting. And I'm now, um, horribly conscious of my background as I look over my shoulder.

Yours is cool. Yours is fine. I, I, I, I Yours works really well.

Rate my room. I'll stick it up there and we'll see what the social sphere thinks of that. Let's move on a little bit to something that you mentioned at the very top in your intro, which was stories and storytelling. And of course, you and I in the work that we do, we talk about storytelling all the time. But I do think it's become a bit of a dirty word that probably elicits lots of leaders going, oh God, Oh my God, not that again. Like we keep hearing storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. What, just very briefly, what do you believe storytelling is in a nutshell? And why do you believe it's so important?

Storytelling for me is really all about moments of emotion, right? Moments of emotion. So stories, they are, they are They are what happened to, to people, what happened to me, what happened to you, what, what happened to others. And they're all always— there's emotion involved, right? So excitement, rejection, disappointment, elation, romance, whatever, whatever, whatever it is, it's all about emotion. So that— and that's what stories are. So let's take away— let's take away, put to the side the idea of storytelling. When we say that, when you started talking about story storytelling. I'm sure many people in their heads have started to think about, oh yeah, okay, story, hero, we need a character, we need a few characters, we need a goodie, we need a, a good guy, a bad guy, let's say an achievement story going up and down, up and down. At the end of the day, you know, on top of a mountain, um, Mount Everest with a flag, and I did it, right? Put that— let's put that aside and just break it right down to, as I say, moments of emotion, because it's, it's all about feelings that we can relate to, feelings that we can relate to. And so as adults, we've— most of us, and I say adults because kids and maybe teenagers, and you'll agree with me, haven't perhaps experienced most emotions, right? So as adults, we've experienced many emotions, and stories can help us connect with those emotions that are relevant for us and help us connect to messages. So let's say when you have a coffee with a buddy, or let's say, um, a group of your, your wife— or are you married? Are you married? Your wife?

Yeah.

Sitting down with a few of her friends, girlfriends, and gossiping. That is storytelling. That is sharing moments of emotion. Did you hear about that? Or did you hear about that? Opening, opening up a, a celebrity magazine, looking at you know, the, the, the top presenter who is now pregnant. That's a story. That's just emotion and story. So, so literally things that have happened to us, things that have happened to us in work, things that are out of work that happened to us or other people in the past, how we think, how we want things to be, visions, the vision of the future. This is all emotion. So If we can connect with emotion and get people to feel that same emotion and then connect it with the messages we want to share, then that is what, that is in essence, you know, for me certainly, what storytelling, the power of storytelling and how to use it, rather than thinking more about, you know, long strategies and pillars and how to really put together a story. Yes, this, this, this helps. Yes, for certain elements in terms of brand stories, in terms of startups, let's say, really figuring out, you know, the, the, the, the founder's story, let's say, that's important. But even more important is the stories of your customers, the stories of your, of your clients, people who've used your products, people who's you— who've used your services, came and had the same challenges as many others, and you managed to, you know, just to sell that service or product, and now they walk away happy. Or maybe they weren't happy after a while and then they came back to you, and then it— and then that's again, that's another story. So all the— it's all about emotion. Connecting with emotion is the first— is the main thing of what storytelling is all about. And that's really what I would say.

And if you think about it, so if listeners are out there, there are listeners out there, I promise.

Hopefully. It could be just us two.

If there are listeners out there.

If it is, I'm having a great time. Listen.

It's been a nice chat already. Many of them are out there thinking, well, okay, so you mentioned brand, right? So they're going, well, yeah, I get stories when you work in brand or if you work in marketing or if you work in customer service, I get how that could be really useful. But I'm the head of risk, or I'm a team leader in finance. That's not really for me. That's not the kind of stuff that works here. What do you say to that?

Yeah, good. Good one. That's a good one. Yeah, that's— so here, it's all about again, but it's still emotional, emotion still plays a part. So finance, legal. So again, it reminds me again of a couple of teams I've been working with legal teams, legal international teams, and a lot of what they share, a lot of their work is actually talking to others, other people within the same company or externally who are not in legal, who are not in the legal circles. And so they have to share information tighter, clearer, with jargon— well, not jargon, with words and phrases and vocabulary that that others are gonna understand very quickly and get straight away. And there's no other better way than using emotion and stories to do that, right? So it's connecting, again, it's thinking about what's relevant for people to understand and then connect that with the messages they share. So you can still, you know, the more emotional, not more emotional you get, The more you think about how others are going to feel, others are going to connect with what you're saying when they, when they hear you, that is really where you can excel. And it doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter if you're in legal, finance, whatever, you know, complicated, really complicated industries, it's all about making that as simple as possible if your audience is not in that sphere, right? If the audience is in that sphere, then it's fine. You don't necessarily have to use so much emotion or storytelling. So again, as a presenter, as a host, many different tech conferences, sometimes I host events which are very technical, which are specifically for, you know, the people speaking are talking to their people, right? So they're using jargon and they're using technical things that are, that, that, you know, the people get straight away. So that, even that, you don't even have to be a good presenter to share that information. So I've seen many, you know, many presenters that are, you know, in terms of delivery, really not good at all. In terms of content, from my eyes and my ears, not good at all. But then you listen to, listen to the people in the audience afterwards and they're like, yeah, that was really cool, I really enjoyed that, because it, because they touched the touch points that meant something for them, right? Yeah, connected, they connected. It's all about how you're going to connect. And if that is, if you're, so if you're connecting with people outside of your sphere or, or let's say industry, really bringing it, breaking it right down to simple emotions that we can all feel is your starting point.

I think it's really interesting when I've worked with clients before where, you know, you are working with what might be termed as the support functions, HR, IT, finance, risk. And, you know, I think sometimes the challenge is on the leader to be this storytelling figure, but actually sometimes the challenge is for the leader to find those stories and actually not necessarily to have the stories, but to connect people, their teams, to the stories. So, let's get you in a room with somebody on the frontline to hear what their day feels like. Let's get you in a room with somebody from corporate banking so they can tell you about the challenge they had with the client that your really, really, really good legal eye helped to sort out. And I think by doing that, I was in a session last week with a client, a workshop with a senior exec team, and somebody said, 'Well, our clients are internal.' And I said, 'I'm going to stop you there, because actually everybody's clients in your organization are the clients. There's no internal clients. There just happens to be somebody in the way of the IT team, and maybe that's a salesperson or a marketing person who's facing off to the client.' But you don't want to get into that hole of 'our clients are internal.' Your clients, your customers, patients, call them what you will, they are what they are. So it's about how you connect your teams to those people and not let them get away with the our clients are internalists, we don't really have to worry too much about that stuff. So, it's just really interesting. I think crossing that chasm into that customer space can be really, really powerful and leaders can really help to do that really well. At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. Back at the top, we talked about how this kind of move to hybrid is requiring leaders to get better at communicating, to get sharper, to maybe be more aware about their communication skills. And actually, maybe for organizations to think about how they need to retrain and what tools and techniques they need to provide with their leaders in order to make them better, in order that those communications work their way down through an organization. I wonder from your perspective and what you've seen and who you've worked with, What do you see as the key role for leaders when it comes to communications? What are some of the things that have popped up in your experience?

From what I've seen, I think, again, over the last couple of years since we moved into this hybrid world, there are certain things that— some words that pop out to me as you said that to me. One of those words is empathy. Right, and I'm sure you, you, you hear this a lot, you say this word a lot, I'm sure, and, and leaders hear this, hear this word a lot as well, right? So, but it's so true, empathy, really kind of putting yourself in the shoes of other people, putting yourself in the shoes of not just clients, customers, but the people around you and the people that are your teams, because again, everything you do, everything when you're coming across when you're showing up, everything, whether people like it or not, is almost— you are setting the tone. You are, you are that role model. You are the person people look up to. So, so if you're, if you're not doing it in the right way, if you're not the things that— and naturally, yes, leaders get even more criticism, get even more, um, there's even more of a— it's easier to be criticized even more as a leader than maybe somebody else in the company. But we— you have to be aware of that. And so all these very, very small things we can do, and we've spoken a lot about them today, right, are really important. But I say, I would say at the top, on the top there, is empathy. Really trying to understand how when the people come online, when they're with you, when you're speaking to them, when you're trying to connect with them, trying to understand how they're feeling and really looking for that connection, right? So really sort of valuing not just what they do at work or the tasks they do in workspace, but the things out of work, you know, how they're doing, how they're getting on, you know, small things like that. And again, the word gratitude can play such a big role in this world we're in today., right? Just like thanking people. So it, you know, meeting, would somebody, would a leader perhaps at a meeting, in-person meeting, say thank you for coming? Maybe at the beginning, perhaps, maybe if they're, if they're, if they're off, if they, you know, quite often a briefing, would he or she say thank you to them for coming? And it's great, great for you to be here. Probably not. I don't know. But here when we say that as a leader, when we start off with just saying, look, listen, thanks, thanks for being here. Um, I know there's a lot, a lot of things going on in a lot of people's minds right now. Um, but, but thanks for taking the time for doing this today, even though they may have to do it because it's part of their job and they have no choice. But still, that gratitude can go such a long way, right? Especially now.

And I think it's more powerful, it's more powerful in that, in that moment where that person has to be there and they're we have to be here anyway, why are you thanking us? I think it's more powerful then.

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, that we've all got things going on and we've all got more things going on. We've got all— okay, some of us are dealing with it really well, some of us not so well, but we can all agree there is certainly more things for us to think about and certainly more challenges. Again, whether they're big, small, or whether we cover them up or whether we show them or we don't, there are things going on in our minds, there's things going on in, you know, you know, in the back garden, let's say, that, that are not shown. And so, and there's, there is anxiety, there's anxiety for everybody. As, as leaders, we have anxiety as well, clearly, you know. So it's, it's just having that empathy, having that gratitude, and that can really be something that that helps people connect even more and, and helps people— I would say even that relationship, you can build that relationship. And I think you've seen it as well, there are relationships that we've built here with people, what, maybe previous guests as well, or, or clients, potential clients that we have never met at all, but our relationship seems to be strong, seems to be good. Or even with people that maybe Before, we kind of knew them in the real world. We kind of— no, we did. We knew them. We, we worked together, right? But here, there are many people that that relationship has kind of unfolded into something stronger. So you see them less, but when you do see them, you kind of open up a little bit more, and we get to know the real people. We get to know people. We can get— we can actually get to know people very well through this medium, through this, this, in this hybrid world. And that's, again, it's, it's, it's, for me, it's all about looking at the good stuff, looking at the good, building on the good stuff. Because so often we hear, again, of how this is, the disadvantages of it, and there are, but there are many, I would say there are many more good stuff, there's much more good stuff the negative stuff. What would you say? I'd love to hear what you think.

Yeah, I'd agree. I think that what this has made us realize is the power of human connection. I know that when I've met people over the past two— so we've won new clients over the past two years that we didn't meet for the first 18 months. And when you meet them in real life, it's an amazing experience just to be in the same room as them, to go, my God. The line that I always get fed mostly is, my God, you're much taller than you look on Zoom. That's because you can only see my head and shoulders. But it is really powerful. And I do think that we have to stop knocking it. I do think it's going to be here for a while. I do think we have to take the best of what we've been through for the past 2 years, pick out those really good things and really build on them going forward. One point probably on the empathy piece, and I completely agree with you, is that empathy is a two-way street. I think that leaders can empathize with their teams in terms of what they're feeling, what they're doing, what their home life looked like. But equally, teams need to do that for their leaders. If I had a euro for every time I had said, people leaders are also people. We put them in this leadership role and we sometimes forget that they're people as well with the same emotions and the same challenges and the same stuff going on at home and the same sitting at the kitchen table with their two kids and their partner trying to homework or homeschool or whatever else. We've all got the same challenges. Sometimes maybe looking back up that hill to see how your leader is on can be a really, really powerful thing to do and will be incredibly well received by that leader. Listen, I'm conscious of time. Very, very last question, and it's a very quick one. We talked about empathy, and I think that— I do think that's really, really important. What do you believe right now, if you were to say one thing that leaders could do, anybody listening this podcast right now, one thing they could do today to be better communicators? What would that one thing be?

I would say be curious. Show your curiosity. Because when we show curiosity— so we can do that in many ways, through our voice, through how we look at the camera, how we, how we move— but just showing that you're curious, asking a question, you know, showing that you're interested and you want to hear, you want to hear someone's perspective, you want to hear what someone thinks of something. You want to hear their ideas on things. So as a leader, showing you're curious about someone else can mean so, so much. And again, that's just one of the elements, one of the strong elements, you know, with our demeanor, with our body language, with our, you know, small little strategies we can use and behaviors to get closer to that. Online, right? So you can see me now, I've kind of tilted my head slightly, my eyes, I can squint my eyes a little bit and say to you, listen, what do you think about that? Or, I'm curious about that, I'd love to hear what you think. So small ways of looking at curiosity and showing curiosity can really, again, really help people connect and really help people share what they want to share, right? Because they— everybody wants to be listened to as well, you know. Listening, again, listening is such an important skill as well, you know. And, and here again, letting people— trying to— so again, we talk about stories. So if I, if I was to tell you a little story about something or something that happened to me, you as a listener, you're in more of a position to do the same to me, right? So what we say, what I'm saying here is stories, kind of moments of emotion, let's say, draw out other moments of emotion. So you see what it means? And then, and then once we do that, this relationship is building. And then, and then again, either side can then kind of evaluate maybe areas where, where the conversation is going and, and, and how to how that would move forward in terms of maybe a selling structure, perhaps if it was on sales, if it was a sales call. But really, as I say, showing that curiosity, really trying to connect can really help and people can do that straight away. Just thinking about that, just even thinking about it is something good. Yeah.

Back to awareness. It's absolutely, it's critically important, isn't it? How could I have been more curious in that call that I just had? Come here, Peter, we've run out of time. The conversation has been Brilliant. Thanks so much for joining today. Where can people find out more about you or get in touch with you? What's the best channels?

Yeah, easiest way is to go on LinkedIn, Peter Hopwood Speaker Coach. You'll find everything that I'm doing, everything that I've done recently, and have a look, have a delve into that. Lots of tips, tricks, ideas, and you know, there's something in there that maybe tickles your fancy. Or you feel like perhaps someone like me can come into your, into your, into your unit, into your, into your company and maybe help with really getting good at, at communicating in this chemistry through the screen, reach out and let's, let's see where we can perhaps collaborate.

Brilliant stuff. Well, listen, thanks for joining and been a great conversation and I hope listeners get as much out of it as I've gotten.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this and listen, Scott, I hope we can do it again sometime.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.