BBC Best Bits | Ep 1 | Lessons from the Locker Room.

What do a rugby coach, a rugby captain, and an RAF pilot have in common? Well, it turns out quite a lot when it comes to leadership. So in this episode of BBC Best Bits, we'll be hearing from Stuart Lancaster, Jamie Heaslip, and Peter Docker about high-performance leadership, emotional intelligence, and the power of doing nothing in a crisis. If you've enjoyed these clips, we will put a link to the full episodes down below in the show notes. Of the rugby team or the cricket team, you make the calls. But actually, that same teacher has to be open when you say, well, sir, I don't agree with X, and you had to feel comfortable with that. That's the same in the workplace as far as I'm concerned. If we talk about promoting a two-way culture, then that psychological safety needs to be there in order for people to feel as though they've got the space to have those conversations.

Definitely, definitely. And I think it's built on relationships. It's built on mutual trust and respect. Um, you know, I often see relationships as an invisible cord between two people, and the thicker the cord, the stronger the relationship. And it has to be two-way, you know, where I give something to a relationship and you give something back in return. You know, there's a lot of examples— I've— environments I've worked in where, you know, I felt I've given something, I've not got much back in return as a consequence. I then give less to the relationship in the future, and then the trust begins to evaporate and we become work colleagues rather than people who are genuinely working together, you know, for the same output. And I think, you know, that sense of, you know, safety comes from the leadership really in the organization as well. So we operate in an environment where we review performance every week. We play on a Saturday, we meet on a Monday, and we review performance. And sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. And in the room there is everyone from the most senior international who's played for the British and Irish Lions, who's been capped by Ireland 100 times, to an academy player who's 19 who's never even played for Leinster. And we're all sat in the same room, and part of the skill of creating a successful environment where people feel safe to give their point of view is that the 19-year-old feels as empowered and as respected, that they can give their point of view and their opinion is valued, rather than some sort of hierarchy where you've got to earn the right to speak because you've sat there for like 4 or 5 years. And I'm very big on that because I think it's really important that we have this diversity of opinion that comes from the most senior player, or in a rugby example, you know, the academy player, which is the same as in a high-performing business organization where you want ultimately the people at the top of the organization to hear the voices and to gather the feedback from the people who are perhaps newest into the organization. But it's that psychological safety that's driven by the leadership, because if they shout down the person that speaks, the younger person speaks, or they belittle them, or they mock them, or they bully them, or they don't value their opinion, That's not a safe environment people can give their— it's an environment where people are very guarded and then don't say what they think all the time.

And it's so easy to poo-poo that feedback or input from somebody who's 19 because sure, what do you know? Whether it's in a work team or in a sports team, what do you know? And actually what they know is something different to perhaps the way that the people, as you said, have been sitting there for 4 or 5 years just a completely different perspective, looking at something from a completely different and fresh angle, because they're perhaps not bringing the baggage of history or what's gone before, or this is the way we do things around here. And that's so important. And of course, I presume from then, from a leader's perspective, from your perspective as a coach in that team, or from a manager perspective in a kind of a corporate setting, that it's about the leader saying, well, hang on a minute, it's important that we hear all the voices in the room. Isn't it?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's equally important that, um, uh, the people, the younger people in the team feel confident to come in, give their point of view, but they must have a point of view in the first place. Um, so what we've worked really hard at is growing the leadership of our youngest players. Um, and, um, one of the things I always say to the youngest players is don't come into the meeting without a point of view. Um, and I'm trying to grow them as leaders and not wait wait until they're 30 years old to become leaders. I think we can sometimes wait for experience.

You talk there about leadership traits. And on this podcast, people often hold up vulnerability and humility as two of the big leadership traits of really, really strong leaders. What's your take on that, vulnerability and humility?

It's hard to argue with those two. But when it comes to leadership, you know, sorry, a really good way of actually, I prefer to talk about it is almost like how, what are the lessons that I've learned? Like I always try and, I love metaphors. As you can see from behind me, this is how my brain works. I need to see stuff, right?

Just for listeners, just from a listener's perspective, Jamie has a wall of pictures behind him where he, 'cause you won't be able be able to see this, obviously. He's just realized that. Yeah, he's just realized that. He has a wall of pictures and doodles up behind him, which is him bringing to life his strategy for the next 12 months. So there we go. Picture painted. Thank you, Jamie.

There you go.

But I mean, it's—

I'm just laughing going, oh, like, come on, Einstein. Yeah, so I am quite visual. So I need to see things. I need to use metaphors. That's how my brain works, right? I'm an engineer by trade. So I kind of use the language that we use in rugby sometimes when I'm talking about it. Leave the jersey in a— like, what are the leadership lessons? So leave the jersey in a better place. What's that to me? To me, that's all about purpose and how, let's say, when I was working with Joe, how Joe— well, actually, I'll go back to Cheka. How Cheka initially, like, he came across this kind of group environment, was quite toxic. There was little silos, you know, little cliques going on, and he was all about passion in the jersey, being proud of what you're wearing. And then Joe elevated that to like, okay, this is not your jersey, this is all part of what we're trying to do here, these are our values, instill the values in the jersey that every time you get a chance, someone else feels like they've got to do that. And that was the purpose. And then Stuart comes along, and Stuart was like, literally bold, and I love that boldness, was like, we have 3 stars in that jersey, we want 5. You know what I mean? And that was, that was real clear that's the legacy we're going to create with this, that's the dynasty we're going to create with this. So leave the jersey in a better place, find what your purpose is. And the next one I like to talk about is leading by example. So that's what I would have very much— what's on your jersey every day? What are people saying is on your jersey every day? So that's like, how do you— like, what are your values? Are you clear on what your values are? Humility. It's funny you say humility. Humble, disciplined, and relentless were the 3 values in Joe's tenure. And they changed as they've gone along, right? And it's important that you bring the group on that and the group decide what that is so they own it and that they carry it through. Another one would be like, manage your season. We talked about that already in terms of wellness, in terms of how you manage the ups and downs, how you look after yourself, control the controllables. So we talk about resources, we talk about that sphere of influence in terms of what can you actually control, what can you influence, and what are the things you just have to accept. You know what I mean? And comfortable in chaos. So that's all about, you know, having a lack of regret. So they make the decision, they put the work in, they put the processes in, and then you see how it falls, and you own how that falls. Because like, take a game, you can be the team— take the weekend for example, um, Munster versus Edinburgh, right? Edinburgh were probably the better team for the majority of the game, but Munster got ahead in the 77th minute, you know what I mean? And they win it. And you can be either side of that a lot of times, but it's more like you've got to have faith in the work that you've done and how you've done it, I suppose. Then looking back to move forward, that's kind of where the vulnerability, humility again comes in, the honesty, you know, that Monday morning review. Being honest, owning mistakes, owning like good things, and not just focusing on the mistakes. Actually, I'm quite, I'm very much a strengths-based coach, so we look on how we can bring the positives and use them now going forward and learn. But that's a big— that's like what comes into that is like your fixed versus growth mindset, that sort of things. And then, you know, also you got like What's a great one I like to tell people? The video doesn't lie. So again, it comes back to honesty. It comes back to having clear objectives. And it comes back to creating psychological safety for you to try things as well and not be afraid to fail.

Well, it's linked to a story that I do share in the book that goes back to 2002, where I was still flying the Air Force, but I was fairly senior. And I would check other pilots. I was checking this particular pilot, Callum, who had recently almost completed his course to go from first officer or copilot over to captain. And so it's quite a lengthy course, but at the end, there is a final sort of check ride or check flights with someone like me at the time. And I monitored Callum as he flew this large passenger jet from the UK over to Washington Dulles, and then on to San Francisco. And as we landed in San Francisco, very busy place, and we shut down, I was able to turn to him and say, "Callum, great job. I'm going to sign you up now. You're fully certified. We'll stop here the night, but in the morning, you'll have a regular crew with you. I'll be down the back with the rest of the passengers, and you fly us back to the East Coast and then on home." And it was a great moment, as you can imagine, because he'd worked hard for this, and it was a privilege to sign him up. The following morning, he came to me just before the flight, and he asked if I could go and sit on the jump seat. And the jump seat is the seat on many large flight deck or large aircraft flight decks that is positioned immediately behind the two pilot seats. It's generally empty, but crew can hitch a ride home. And when you're sat there, you can physically touch the pilots, you know, they're just an arm's reach away. And Callum wanted me to sit there, not because he was underconfident, but because it was very busy rush hour. In the morning in San Fran. And it wasn't a place we went to very often. And he wanted an extra pair of eyes looking out, watching out for other aircraft as we taxied and made our way to the runway for takeoff. And it was a really good decision, I thought at the time, a courageous decision as well, 'cause he just got me off his back, you know, after being checked for months and months, but it was all in service of the safety of the airplane. So that's when I sat, well strapped in, and we taxied out. And finally it was our turn for takeoff. And we thundered down the runway. And got airborne, but then around about 300 or 400 feet, which is very close to the ground, we had an emergency. And what I chose to do in the next 2 seconds would fundamentally affect whether the 140 people on board would survive or not. And we might all have ideas in our head as to what we might do in that situation. As the most experienced pilot, as I was on the aircraft,. But actually, what I did was absolutely nothing. I sat there with my hands in my lap quite calmly because I knew I'd trained Callum. I'd signed him off the previous day to fly this aircraft anywhere in the world. So there was no reason for me to intervene. What I needed to do in that moment was to become a great follower. I needed to step back, give him the space, Have him feel that I had his back so he could then do his job. So this led to the notion in my mind of leading from the jump seat. Because as you said in your intro, Scott McInnes, at some stage, we all take a step back. That is inevitable. We retire as a CEO, we leave our team, or ultimately, we end up on the wrong side of the grass. We do step back. Or indeed, our children grow up and leave home and start to lead their own lives. It's inevitable. So leading from the jump seat is about leading in such a way where we prepare our people for that moment, where we create the space and lift them up so they then can take the lead and carry forward those things that are really important to us.

And I think that whole idea that he knew you were there, and if he needed you, he could have reached back and said, Peter, what next? But he didn't because he was well trained. He knew his onions. He was able to fly the aircraft and off you went and you got safely to your destination. Thanks for listening. If you want to hear these interviews in full, you'll find links to each one in the show notes. And for more on Inspiring Change and the work we do, just pop along to inspiringchange.ie.