Benjamin Heldfond & Chief Peacekeeper Scott Levin Discuss The Amazing Book 'Our Happy Divorce'

Hey, this is Scott Levin, founding partner at San Diego Divorce Mediation, and I am here today with Benjamin Heldfond. How are you, Benjamin?

Good. Thanks for having me, Scott, the chief peacekeeper. I'm honored.

Yes, sir. Thank you. And we've actually become friends. Ben wrote an amazing book called Our Happy Divorce with his ex-wife, and We connected, and if you've watched a recent video that I posted, I just kind of wanted to extend upon that conversation with Ben. And in that previous video was I had my 2-year-old on my lap and I was trying to talk to everyone about how you and your spouse love your kids more than any lawyer, more than any judge, more than any paralegal ever could. I mean, it's all about what you guys created. And if you have children, but unfortunately things aren't working out and you, you know, want to move in a different direction and divorce, there's an alternative path. And Our Happy Divorce, the book— I have it right here— it is literally the most amazing book that I've read from 2 people that have gone through the process. And, uh, Ben, um, thank you for writing it. Uh, it's an, uh, you know, we've been texting and talking about it. I really commend you and Nikki for, uh, you know, that collaboration that you guys put together, not just for the book but for your lives.

Well, well, thank you. And that, you know, that's the, uh, you nailed it right on the head, is I think if you, you know, put a— gave everybody a truth serum, right, and they had to tell the truth, uh, and even in the nastiest divorces, um, that if you were to ask the other spouse whether the other one loved their children 9 out of 9 would say that yes, they love their children. So that's the foundation of what our happy divorce was. You know, it wasn't great in the beginning. I don't think anybody leaves a marriage and goes to see their lawyer because their marriage is on a winning streak. You know, there's some very difficult emotions that it deals with, probably the worst emotions, and especially for a man, you know, the romance and the finance buttons. Once those are pushed, You know, we have a tendency to go off-kilter, but at the root of it all was the love for our child and not wanting to stick him with the emotional bill, you know, of our decisions for something he had no choice in.

Yeah, and you really spoke so eloquently, in my opinion, about, you know, right at the beginning when the emotions were running high. I kind of want to just talk about that time in your life. During this brief call.

Yeah.

Because, you know, people are in a very, very precarious position when they decide, you know, it's not working out. You take off the wedding ring, you put it on the table, as you described in your book, and you walk out and you're like, I'm fired up. Like, you know, I want— I'm ready to get after it now. And you, you talk about putting Your entire— the lens that you guys looked at everything through was, how is this going to affect Asher? I think he was 3 or 4 at the time of this all going down. How did you control your emotions and, you know, create that lens so that you were so future-focused and trying to do the right thing?

Well, I wish I could say well at first, but it wasn't the case, you know. And as you said, and I have to clarify it because it— Yeah, if Nikki were here, she would make sure she pointed it out. But I left. It's not one of my finest moments in life. I— it was probably the most dramatic thing I've ever done. And I took off my ring and I took a picture of Nikki and I and I ripped it up and I put the ring right in the middle of the picture and walked out of the house, you know, very dramatic. But at the same time, it was those emotions that I was talking about earlier and That is the most important thing for people, I think, to realize. At least it was for us, because desperation— in that spot of desperation, in that spot of fear and resentment— look, that is where cults are built. That is where, you know, religion and snake oil salesmen and all the, you know, bad things live and breed. And that's because people are so desperate. I was so desperate that the first lawyer I spoke to, you know, I was listening to and what I was going to get and all this stuff. So, you know, when you're— and the other thing is when you're feeling that way, or at least when I was feeling that way, it's so much easier to point the finger at somebody else, right? It makes your behavior and your actions justifiable to say, oh, it can't be me, it's her. And so for us, or for me, what it took was it at a moment after I'd seen his lawyer and after I was going to go out for blood, but I was on a plane. And he had written up this, you know, game plan basically of what and how we were going to go after Nikki, you know, exactly what I told him I wanted to do. And I got about 2 pages into it and it was, it was pretty long. But I got about 2 pages into it and I immediately got honest. And it was the first time I was honest in a long time about, you know, the fact that this can't all be Nikki's fault. You know, it was an understanding, not really knowing where it was or how it was going to look, but it was an understanding that it takes two to make a relationship and it takes two to break a relationship. So there's no way this could all be Nikki's fault. Now, there are— I just think it's clear to say that there are some caveats to that, you know, the sexual abuse and physical abuse and stuff that's outside our pay grade. But for the most part, you know, in any relationship, there cannot be one villain. So that was the journey, you know, that we took. And the most important thing I think we did, which I think should be mandatory in all 50 states, In every county in this country is a break, a break from the decision to take a divorce to actually going to even see a lawyer. And I know that's not reasonable, right? But it deals— you hear a lot about never mixing business and feelings, right? Taking emotions out of business. And I'm not— I might sound apathetic now, but believe me, I'm not. But divorce at the end of the day is a business agreement and a business deal between 2 parties because you're dealing with assets and you're dealing with, you know, split of a lot of things. Every bad business deal I've ever been in, every mistake I've made with selling a house, when I look back on it, is because I had emotion into it. I had something tied to it. So, Nikki and I took that break in the beginning and we went our separate ways and we obviously were still co-parenting our son. But we were working on ourselves and we were trying to find the answer to that, you know, $64,000 question is what was my part in the ending of the marriage? And that, that, that is what Our Happy Divorce is founded on, uh, you know, accountability, honesty, uh, and forgiveness.

Yeah. And, uh, when people are in that position where they're just deciding, you know, what to do, and, and you guys went through what's called a collaborative law practice process, which is basically, but really what you did was you guys met at Starbucks every week or so, or maybe even more so than that, and you guys really started talking about, you know, well, where do we want to— what do we want this to look like when we look back on this time? Like, what do we want to do for our son?

Right.

What do we want to do for each other? How do we want this to be? Can you imagine, you know, how much different things would have been if you would have Engaged that lawyer and given him or her permission to, you know, file the petition and go at it.

And fire that missile. Yes. Well, I can't imagine. And that's because I've seen it. I've seen it, you know, unfortunately, I lived it with my parents, which was not a happy divorce. But I've also seen it and heard stories of it, you know, today and just running into people is that the end of the day, when a high-conflict divorce gets done, if it ever gets done, At the end of the day, present company excluded, but the only one that wins are lawyers. And we look at it too much as wins and losses and us versus them. And, you know, Nikki and I didn't have all the resources that are out there today. You know, when we got divorced, as crazy as it was, it was 13 years ago, but there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there was no social media. There was MySpace, but they didn't have divorce support groups on MySpace or divorce coaches or all, you know, all the resources today. So, We just sort of figured it out. And but it's amazing what happened after that moment that our first meeting at the coffee shop was, you know, I called her to coffee to apologize. You know, told her I loved her and apologized for what I had done to, you know, for the ending of the marriage because I had found my part and it was clear. And the intention was just to clean up my side of the street. I had no idea how she was going to react. She— and she knows, I know, because she, you know, writes about in the book, she was scared to go in that coffee shop because she didn't know what I was up to or what she was walking into. But after that moment, I wouldn't say it was easier, but it was a little bit simpler, right? Or I'm sorry, it was easier. The concept was easy, but it wasn't simple, right? But then after we had cleaned up the, you know, our past, then we sort of started talking about lawyers and we started getting together first to talk about the big picture, right? Without the lawyers, without anybody, you know, my first question to her was, do you have any problem with joint custody, joint 50/50 with Asher? And she said, of course not. And, you know, you're a great father, uh, you know, I want him to be with you as much as, as much as possible. And I then in turn obviously said the same thing to her. So, at that point I said, okay, all the other stuff I think we can work on. So, that was the Big picture. And then we said, okay, well, let's start talking about the, you know, started getting a little lower from that 40,000-foot view. And over, you know, a couple of meetings at a coffee shop, going back to— now, it's not like she didn't have her lawyer and I didn't have my lawyer or my team, but the most important thing is that we were on each other's team, right? It wasn't us versus them. It was 2 business people making a business choice and not letting the lawyer sort of get in the middle of That, that business choice. And before we knew it, uh, we had worked out the whole deal, the whole settlement, and went to the lawyer and said, you know, draw it up.

I love that because, you know, in my mediation practice, I, I have a package, as easy— as cheesy as that sounds, of 4 mediation sessions. And people are shocked when I tell them, you know, 85% of my clients are done, signed an agreement. I'm dealing with people in Southern California Some of my clients are worth millions, some of them are single income. And you know what, that single income, you know, military families oftentimes harder to work with because there's such a small pie to be divided. But now we live in, you know, San Diego where everything's so expensive.

Right.

Um, but you know, you can do it in 4 or 5 weeks and, and be future-focused and move forward and live your best lives and still co-parent. And, uh, but also something else I love that you said was It's not easy work, you know, it's not easy work in mediation, or if you guys out there are going to try to do what Ben and Nikki did, which is kind of come up, come to the terms by themselves and then bring in, you know, the experts to kind of help guide them from there. But it's not easy work in mediation where I work with both parties and we form a team. And basically we're on team us, and on the other side are the issues and problems of divorce.

Right.

But, but it's for— it's fulfilling work. And, you know, I don't want to— you know, Ben and Nikki have done a lot of podcasts and they have a great website. Is it ourhappydivorce.com?

It is. It is.

So I think everybody please buy this book. I've been in this industry 20 years. Yeah, I'll take the COVID off real quick. But, you know, if you look through my copy of the book, I don't know if you'll be able to see it. It doesn't look like you can, but I highlighted it.

You highlighted it, huh?

I highlighted the hell out of this. But so, I mean, it's an amazing book. I cannot recommend it more. Our Happy Divorce, check it out. And I, you know, if only 10% of the people could do, you know, what Benjamin and Nikki did for their son Asher and their own futures.

Well, and yeah, and that's the deal right there. And it's not like We're convinced, and this is why we, you know, wrote the book and decided to do it, or actually, I finally convinced Nikki to do it because I was never going to do this project without Nikki, right? Because just like it takes two, you know, to ruin a relationship, it takes two to make it. We would not have the relationship we have today if Nikki, you know, and I weren't partners in this whole deal. So, it only made sense for her to join me on the journey of writing the book. But if we can do it, and a little bit about us and our type, I mean, we are Type A alpha male, you know, alphas who, you know, are stuck in our ways and somehow we got this thing right. So, your number 10%, I think if everybody were just willing to take a break in the beginning and work, I mean, there's so many great coaches, right? And look for alternatives like mediation. I mean, I think the secret, you know, the secret sauce, the future of better outcomes for divorce is within coaching, and mediation. And it's, you know, I, I, I just— a side note I just learned, which just makes so much sense, is that family law isn't part of the Constitution. It doesn't say anywhere that, you know, it's just because, you know, during, I guess during the, uh, women's rights era that they were starting to get divorced and they were so backlogged that chief judges, you know, started, uh, um, uh, you know, uh, get backlogged. So they created family court. And now it's a machine, and now it's affecting people's lives, and it doesn't have to. Like, it doesn't— you don't have to go to court to get divorced, right?

Exactly.

I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but is that— I mean—

No, you don't. None of my clients ever stepped a foot in a courtroom. Um, no.

And, and in the financial, you know, usually romance and finance ends a marriage, right? Uh, but it's also what keeps it bad and keeps it going in the future. And you're going to be affected by romance and finance much longer, uh, especially the financial part. And the only people that are going to win are the lawyers. And that's, you know, your kids are going to get hurt emotionally, all that. I've heard— I mean, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the amount of money some people have spent on their divorce.

Sad.

You know, I got divorced from Nikki, uh, from my second lawyer that I paid. The first one was a little bit more expensive, but it was worth every penny of it. But, you know, it was like $5,000, $6,000. And, you know, we had some assets together. It wasn't, you know, but it does it again. The assets don't matter, right? But it was a small amount of money and we did it right. And, you know, I love what you said at the end about we're happier people. And it started off with a goal of not having our son, you know, face the consequences of our decision or pay the bill. But in the long run, 13 years later, Nikki and I are much happier people and we don't have to walk around with the resentment, the hatred, the toxicity of what some people unfortunately have to. And then they bring other people in the marriage and they're, you know, get to drink the toxicity too. But, you know, Nikki and my wife are best friends. I'm, you know, very close and best friends with her husband. We go do things on our own. We live 7 houses apart. And it's the easier, softer way for sure. And so, we're convinced that everybody could do it. And, you know, there's so many resources out there today. If you just take that break and take that breath at the beginning and not go out and talk to friends about the best lawyer in town or get on the Google machine and hire the best, you know, shark—

Shark.

In town, you know, get on and, you know, search the best mediator. Or the best coach or the best therapist, um, because that's what's got to be handled first.

You know, you guys, I think if Asher was 3 or 4 when you guys started this, if you guys would have gone through a full-on litigation, you would have been on average, if you were the average couple, would have taken each other back to court post-divorce 7 times in the last, uh, 15 years.

Wow. So every 18 months, right? I mean, I know people, I've talked to people who 13 years later The guy I know that, uh, is in the industry was going back to court to fight because his ex filed a motion 13 years after their divorce settlement.

Yep. And, and you guys never— you know, when you guys— when people learn how to communicate, I mean, not everyone's going to grow into this amazing, you know, big family that you guys have, but if you can communicate and learn how to talk and accept responsibility, because nothing is Is, of course, like Ben said, outside the norm. If there's abuse and assault, then let's move that to the side. But the rest of the general population, you know, it's not one person's fault. We all have to be honest with each other. Every fight that I have with my wife, eventually, eventually, I accept, I understand where it was, where I erred. And I try not to make it happen again.

Right. And the idea also, the Our happy divorce, you know, is a land of unicorns and, you know, rainbow waterfalls and all that. It's just not the case, right? I mean, yes, Nikki and I are— we travel together, we, you know, we all go, we have family dinners once a week, we live 7 houses up. So, it's a little obscene, right? Absurd. But we still have our challenges. We still parent different. We still have arguments. You know, we— You said in the beginning, there are landmines everywhere to step in in the middle of divorce and even later on. But those issues need to be separate from the divorce because I believe that Nikki and I would have those issues. If anybody has a teenager at home, right, you know, I co-parent with my current—

current wife—

with my wife, uh, with our 2 kids, and we have different parenting styles. So Nikki and I have different parenting styles, so we would have those disagreements anyways. But it's a— what you said, it's about communicating. And cooperating. And I love the word co, right? Co is together, and we do it together.

I love when you say that. Well, listen, Our Happy Divorce, um, please go to ourhappydivorce.com, uh, reach out, uh, if you need help. I'm sure, um, there's an email link there.

Everything, uh, on social media, Our Happy Divorce, you know, drop us DM. And if you want to talk, this isn't, you know, we're not coaches, We're not lawyers, uh, and we didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

We're better than all those other people. Right.

But if, you know, if you have any questions or need any advice or feel stuck, please, please, please feel free to reach out to us.

Well, thanks a lot, um, uh, everyone for tuning in. And, uh, Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper, as I've named myself.

The best. The best name ever, by the way. Best title ever. And believe me, he is.

All right, we'll see you soon. Thanks a lot.