Can You Use Divorce Mediation with a Narcissist? How to Mediate with a Narcissistic Personality

Okay. Welcome everyone. It is so great to be here to talk about a very, very interesting topic, successfully mediate your divorce with a narcissist. And I'm very, very excited to be here with Scott Levin to talk about it. If you're here live, say hello in the chat. Any questions you have, put in the chat and we will get to them during our question and answer. So I'm Jill Barnett Kaufman. I'm a therapist, divorce coach, co-parenting expert, and I have Scott Levin here who is— why don't you, Scott, tell them a little bit about yourself?

Yeah. Hey everyone, Scott Levin. I'm a family law attorney in California. Uh, I was a litigating attorney for about a decade. Since 2012, by choice, I work as a mediation attorney. So I help people divorce and separate, uh, together through mediation. Um, and I'm also a certified divorce financial analyst, but, uh, excited to be here. Tough topic, but excited to talk to y'all.

Yeah, there was a lot of interest in this topic, so that's good. And stay until the end. I have a free gift for you all if you stay until the end. So the first big question— and I'm going to stop sharing my screen in a second— but can you mediate your divorce with a narcissist, difficult, or high-conflict person? And a lot of people ask me this question, Scott. So I think that would be really a good place to start on this topic.

Yeah. My perspective is that there's no such thing as a case that can't be mediated. Honestly, there is only a mediator that can't mediate a resolution to a case. So a narcissistic person, a high-conflict personality, That lacks empathy, that gaslights, that takes advantage, that's entitled. Those are qualities that are in conflict, direct conflict really with the mediation process, right? So a vital aspect of successfully mediating a dispute is the willingness of both parties to engage in negotiations and compromise. Traits like those make reaching that sort of mutually voluntary act of agreement more difficult. But Jill, in my opinion, the question really should be framed a little bit differently. What are your priorities in divorcing your high-conflict spouse?

Right.

So, um, you walk into a lawyer's office, you tell them, I have a high-conflict narcissistic spouse that I want to divorce. Do you think that you're in better position than you were 10 seconds ago before you made that statement? You are absolutely not. That means to the lawyer that the case is going to be a pain in the ass, that they're gonna have to fight. that the other lawyer and them are gonna get into it. Everything about the case will be negative. So what's that mean to the lawyer? Well, it means dollar signs, first of all, right? Um, it means 3 years of your life, probably, at least in California. Um, so, uh, so you're now, um, on a path that is, um, in some people's opinion, the necessary, uh, evil of divorcing a narcissistic spouse, right? Uh, but what are your priorities really? And then, Jill, I promise I'll let you talk. But, you know, what are your priorities? If it were me divorcing a narcissistic person, here's what I would want. I would want to get away. I would want to get away quickly, and I would want to get away as forever as possible. And the path to accomplishing those things is through mediation, not through a litigation.

Right, right. Well, I think most people that I work with want to do mediation rather than anything else, but they're worried that, you know, their spouse says, I'm never going to pay you alimony, or you're not getting the house, or, you know, something that— or you're, you're not getting the kids, you know, something that scares them so much that they think that, oh, there's no point in mediation because they're not going to agree to anything.

Yeah.

And what I always tell people is that, well, that Is one of their techniques to try to control the process and you and the situation. And just because they're saying it doesn't mean that it's true, you know, because somebody can start that way. And Scott, I'm sure you've seen that people start at a certain place and then they change.

Yeah. And so that really comes down to like, how does the mediation become— how is a mediation successful with that, with a high conflict personality? Well, it really starts with the mediator, right? So a lot of people, when they're interviewing mediators, they're kind of just having like general conversations, like, do I like Scott? Like, but you have to be smart when you're interviewing mediators because it's really going to come down to that person's ability. So like, you have to— and you're— when you interview a mediator, you, at least in my practice, you're doing it together. So, so you can't be like, hey, Scott, this, this person is a real problem, right? Like, that's not gonna happen. But you have to be like, um, huh, uh, what sort of strategies do you employ when there's a breakdown in communication? Or, um, what happens when someone makes accusatory comments, or that's off, that's off the point of what we're there to talk about? Like, you have to kind of like— really hear, like, what strategies do you implement when people aren't on the same page? Like, you have to really ask the questions. And if they're not really giving you, like, kind of answers, then you probably— they're probably not the right person because they're probably more of that general mediator who might do great work, but, like, you know, for people that don't really have that situation. Because there really is training and experience and things that you can employ that, like, make it more likely that you can handle a situation like that. You have to have the right mediator as the first step.

Right, exactly. I think that's a great point. And, um, someone who's very experienced, I think, is, is important, and someone who's used to taking cases that are like that. And just talk about your experience, like, being a litigator. I think that probably helps you, um, mediate these kinds of situations, right?

Yeah, I mean, you have to gain the respect of the, of the, of the personality. Otherwise, you know, if you're like if you're not respected, then you can't make statements that they'll, that they'll accept. But yeah, absolutely, like having that experience. But, um, you know, the— it's not to, uh, it's not to scare people like into— like you don't want to say something that's, you know, triggers the person and then all of a sudden you're the enemy too. So, but yeah, being, being a, um, a litigation attorney, having, you know, all that experience in depositions and representing Personalities that, like I said, I would rather not have anything to do with at times, you know. Um, yeah, you know, like, it, it definitely, it definitely helps in dealing with people.

Yeah, no, exactly. I would think most of the cases that went to court— because, you know, 95% of cases don't get litigated— but those 5%, most of them are probably involving a narcissist Or high-conflict person, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

In your practice, like, what are the biggest— uh, like, when people are actually in mediation with that personality type, what are some of the challenges that you hear most often?

Oh, well, so, I mean, first of all, there's a lot of threatening going on, you know. And so, um, when you've been married to someone For a period of time, and that person threatens you, that triggers all these old feelings. So you think you get really scared, you get very, you know, emotionally reactive. So you say something back, you know. So the challenges for my clients are how to remain calm.

Mm-hmm.

When the spouse says something that's, you know, threatening or hurtful. or, um, you know, like conflictual, that's really, really difficult. And I, if you don't mind, I wanted to talk about that for a little bit because I, I'm sure you've seen it in your mediation sessions where somebody triggers somebody and they're emotional and, and it goes off the rails, right?

Yeah.

You know, the— and I had a client once who said that she lost $20,000 because she couldn't control her emotions. because she brought up something and, you know, the mediation didn't go in the best way in that session. I mean, they ended up getting settled during the mediation, but she lost $20,000. So it's real— there's a real cost monetarily here if you can't keep yourself calm, and that's the biggest challenge. So what I wanted to talk about a little bit was like You know, the brain and how it is, um, it's taking in all this information all the time. So like somebody— when you're interacting with your soon-to-be ex, you're taking in what you're seeing, what you're hearing, um, and you're looking at their, their facial expressions and their tone. And I see this all the time when I do co-parenting counseling. They can giggle a little or roll their eyes, and there's such a strong reaction from the other spouse, right? Or the other ex. And what you have to realize is you cannot react to the other person in an emotional way when you're in mediation, because what will happen? What have you seen happen?

Well, what's going to happen is that it takes you away from what you're there to do, which is like, you know, solution-focused.

Exactly.

So now you're defending your actions. You're defending your actions to someone who— and that's all they want you to do, right? They want you to be defensive. They want you to justify yourself. They, um, they're going to use any, uh— well, this is just my experience. I'm not the professional on the mental side, but, uh, they're going to use anything that you say to them during the divorce process That's personal in nature, they'll turn around and use it against you during your negotiations. So, oh, you should have seen, you know, yesterday I was driving with Jack and I got pulled over. Can you believe that? The first time I've ever gotten pulled over. She's an unsafe driver. He's an unsafe driver. You know, so just anything, you have to limit all that communication. If it's truly a truly high, high conflict case, try to only be interacting Verbally during the mediation sessions and don't reveal anything personally because everything's going to be turned around against you and you don't want to be offending yourself.

Yeah, that is a great, great tip. Yeah, you don't reveal anything personal or emotional because then they'll have more information and you really don't want to give them information. So you want to really just stay as quiet as possible, stay as calm as possible. And I have some techniques for that. I'll go over that later on. But I think that's a great tip is, you know, you have to get out all of your emotions beforehand so that you can walk into that mediation as calm and as logical and as clear as possible. And if anybody has questions, please put them in the chat.

And there's another little tip since you just brought that up that I have, you know, being— you've heard me say kind of focus on solutions, be solution-focused. You know, that's part of what the mediator— back to the mediator too, hiring the right mediator. Like, when I'm dealing with, you know, that sort of case, I'm bringing in the whiteboard and I'm putting things on the whiteboard. So I'm taking the focus away from the, the pro— like, the 2 people, and I'm saying, here, what about the— what do we do here? All of a sudden you have your focuses over here. You're, you're saying, oh, what about this? Here's another idea. That's like the mediator's role is to, is to get people focused on the problems and the solutions to those problems. And a really, really great way of doing that is to make proposals with options. So, uh, a narcissist wants to be in control, right? I mean, that's, you know, just YouTube the word, I guess, and you can find out a million hours of people saying that. So, um, and again, I'm not a mental health professional, but, um, you, you present Options, multiple options. Here's 2 ways I think we could handle things. And all of a sudden the person is choosing the one, and now they've come up with the idea. What a great idea. Yeah, let's do that. So you have to come in with proposals, but you make those proposals layered with options. And all of a sudden now you're giving the person, you know, the right to choose. And now they're saying, oh, okay, well, let me add this to that. And now what are we doing? We're talking about solutions. And we're on the whiteboard and blah, blah, blah. Now we're on this topic. Well, what do you think about that? And now you're an hour and a half in and you're all about what's going on up here and not about what's going on between the, you know, the history.

That's a great, great tip. And, um, yeah, any way you can find out, like, people come into a mediation and are like, it has to be this or nothing, you know? And that's like a recipe for disaster, right? And especially with a narcissist. So yeah, coming up with options, several different options that you're okay with, is such a great tip because you, you know, you're handing them control within a limited framework.

Totally.

So I love that. All right. So hopefully we're not frozen. Somebody said that we're frozen, but I think it's probably their computer because we're fine.

I haven't seen it, but hopefully I'm not frozen.

Right. And again, if anybody has questions, please put them in the comments section. So how would you say to prepare? What are your advice to prepare for mediation when you're dealing with a difficult person, narcissist, or high conflict?

Yeah, I mean, so like what you've talked about, Jill, is like that, you know, Strategies to reduce the emotional reaction. That's probably the first thing that I could think of. But other than that, it's, you know, another great thing is, you know, like I said, create proposals with layered options. Be focused on solutions, not on problems, but also preparing yourself with the team. So mediation is a vehicle where the mediator is facilitating communication and negotiation. But, you know, Getting a team like Jill, an emotional side, uh, you know, where you can stay calm, focused, and all those things. A CDFA, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, some sort of financial expert that's walking you through your options, making sure you understand, making sure that you have all the financial information that you need, um, and being able to ask, give you the, uh, the, the asks if you don't have— if you have financial questions that the other side needs to answer. Giving you those questions specifically so that you're not guessing. And then obviously, getting a good legal consultant if you want to have a consulting attorney, someone that is going to be helpful and not hurtful to the mediation and the end goal. And then really, the big thing, like I said, is to focus on your core goals. So, you know, what is it that you need to extricate from this situation in order to settle? What is it? What's your walking away point? You know, what is— what would the proposal be if it's shaping up to be X, Y, or Z where you would say that's just not something I can accept? Understanding what's your priority. So when you go to an attorney or mediator or anyone and you say that Let's see. You say, what do you think I should do with this situation? Then you would basically— you're basically giving up control, right? You don't know— they don't know you. They don't know your family. They don't know your kids. They don't know your spouse. They don't really know the situation. So you don't want to go into a divorce attorney's office and say, hey, do your Playbook 101 for dealing with a narcissist. You You need to know what your objectives are, your priorities are, and how to best accomplish them as the strategies that you'll put into place.

So, yeah. So, Scott, that is exactly what I work with people on, trying to figure out what your goals and priorities are, because so many people fight for things that don't matter to them. And they think it does. Like, I was just working with a couple recently. I did a little bit of a mediation, which I don't usually do anymore. But I've been working with this person for a while. And he asked me to do it. So, um, he— they were talking about what the schedule was going to be in the next 3 months for the kids, and they were really stuck on their own points. You know, they're like, this is— but the long-term schedule, they were kind of in agreement on. And I'm like, you don't realize that the next 3 months is not that important compared to the next 10 years.

Yeah.

Like, why aren't we focused on the fact that you're in agreement on the next 10 years, the next 3 months don't really matter that much. And they ended up being like, you're right, you know. And so they came to an agreement on what to happen for the next 3 months. So it's like you think something is really important until you talk to someone and you recognize, well, that's not, that's not as important as I thought it was. And so you don't want to spend, waste time on things that are not. It's really important, especially with a narcissist narcissist or high-conflict person because they will just dig their heels in if they think something's important to you.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. You have to— I just did a mediation last week for a couple that were already divorced last year. It was a litigation case. And they had a dispute about the one— there was some nonpayment or one person didn't pay a set of extracurricular activities. And so they were back in court and, uh, and each of— one person spent about $16,000, the other person $12,000, and then they said, oh, let's see if we can mediate this. Um, what would you think that the amount, well, uh, that was in dispute would, would be in that situation?

$1,500.

It was $4,500. So you were—

That's crazy.

Like, you know, I, I didn't disrespect the issue because obviously, like, you know, they They spent that for a reason. Like, there was obviously history and a personality issue that would lead people to spend $32,000 on something that costs $4,000. But yeah, they were able to do it. And it was really because something that, you know, I do less often, or in a typical case, we're all in the same room. But in this case, we were in separate rooms. So— You know, we did the shuttle mediation where, uh, in this case—

That's what I would like you to explain, what shuttle mediation is. That was one of my questions.

Yeah, so in this case, you know, husband— I had them in separate rooms, but at the very beginning of the meeting, so they, they knew they were there, but they never interacted. We did our consultation together, so we— they decided they wanted to work with me together. But then after that, so then we, we met the next week. This was just last week. And, and, and all the things that he was saying Were, you know, if she heard them, it would have— it wouldn't have gone well because they were very accusatory, demeaning, rude, very direct, uh, based in their history, nothing to do with the present, um, and just, you know, all sorts of things. But in the end, after like 15, 20 minutes of talking to him, I eventually got a proposal. that I could take to the other side. And then instead of her hearing all those things, I skipped forward 18 minutes and said, here's what the offer is, right?

Yeah.

So she didn't have to hear any of the things that would've triggered her, or probably mainly, like you said earlier, would've made her defend herself and clarify. And well, then just so you know, this is actually what happened that day in 1998.

Right.

But, you know, we just got to the proposal and then she was, you know, okay, well, take it or leave it this. And I was like, no, that's not how we're gonna do this. We're not gonna take it or leave it because it will be leave it. You guys have already done that. You spent $30,000 on something that should be for— that you're only fighting about for. So obviously that's not great strategy. So what about if you offer this or something like this? And then we cultivated a proposal with 2 options.

So a shuttle mediation is actually really, really helpful when it is a narcissist because then you don't have to be in the same room with them. So I just also want to bring up— so I started mediation through my divorce when we were in the same room, just us and the attorney and the mediator. And then we got to a certain point and then we couldn't get anymore. And then we had a, like, a big session. It was like 5 or 7 hours With me in one room with my attorney, him in his room with his attorney, and the mediator went back and forth. And so you can do a combination of, you know, non-shuttle mediation or shuttle mediation if that's what you want to do.

That's more common. In this case, one of them had asked for us to start in separate rooms, which is harder actually for the mediator because you almost want to hear like the direct communication because then you're, you know, you can respond. But in a case where there's really going to be things that Like, you know, are going to be said that the other person doesn't want to hear. They don't want to hear the lies. They don't want to be exposed to manipulation, the selfish statements, those, you know, all those things that, that are designed to defeat the other person. They just want to hear the facts. Then, you know, you be in separate rooms. But most of my cases, we start together and then, you know, we separate, like, you know, when it's needed.

Right. And what do you think about bringing attorneys into mediation?

Yeah, when you have attorneys, that's when we definitely separate because the whole history between the 2 attorneys, that's the last thing that you want to bring into the room. Sometimes, you know, every once in a while they're friends and like, I mean, they're all kind of friends. We're all part of the same, you know, bar association and things, right? But, um, have you, have you seen that, uh, that Netflix, uh, the, the movie with Scarlett Johansson?

Yes.

Marriage Story.

Yes.

So when the 2 attorneys are like in the, in the hallway and they're like, come to my charity event at the Beverly Hilton, and then they go into the court and they just destroy each other. Yeah, that's kind of how it is, right? But like a lot of times those attorneys have history where it's not so pleasant, so you don't want them interacting and creating a negative atmosphere. But what do I think about attorneys? I think attorneys take over mediations in terms of like Now the client defers. So you're not hearing from the parties as much as you are the attorneys. And it really depends on the attorneys. I was, just to give you another example, I actually told a couple, mom in this case was in one room with her attorney and the attorney, and she was like, well, I really want more custody. And I was trying to understand why, like, you know, what would I tell Dad, why you would get more custody? What's the reason? And the attorney was telling her that he could get more custody for her if it went to court. And there was no reason that— Dad actually had the more flexible job. Dad was actually kind of the historically more involved parent. Mom had like a kind of an office job where she was unavailable until a certain point in the day. Dad does all the activities, the doctor's appointments, all that stuff, the homework. And so I was like, you know, I really think you're getting bad advice right now because your attorney is telling you something I don't see happening.

Right.

But so if the attorney is going to be honest with the client and give real good, like real good advice, then it's all, you know, that the hope is that would happen, but it's just, you know, you don't always get that.

No. And, um, I— Yeah, I recommend that they— you don't start out with attorneys because you don't— you want to see what you can do without them. And you— and people don't understand that when you go to a mediation, you don't have to agree to anything. You just can go, you can listen, you can talk about things, and then you can go to your attorney after the mediation and find out, you know, ask the legal questions, find out their advice, and make a decision and come back to the next mediation. with some agreements or non-agreements. So I think people really don't get that, you know, going initially just yourself is not going to put you at any disadvantage.

No, and a good mediator will say that. So my sessions last 90 minutes, uh, so I tell people, hey, let's feel like— let's spend the next week until our next meeting, like, let's feel how the things that we talked about, like, sit with us, right? And then don't be shocked If someone comes back and says, hey, you know, before we start on this next topic, I want to go backwards and I have something to say, because we're not making final decisions. Nothing's final until it's final. But having that, those 90-minute meetings where you have time in between really lets you feel like, does this sit well with me? And then lets you kind of explore why not if the answer is no.

Right, right. And I think people have to understand that nothing is final until you sign something. You know, so you can agree and say that that's final, but unless you've signed it, it's not final, right?

Until you've signed it, it's not final, that's for sure. And that can happen. There's lots of coming back and, and, and thinking twice about things for sure.

Absolutely. Uh, we have a lot of questions, so I wanted to maybe start on some, and if there's something else that you want to add, we can go back to it. Is that okay?

Yeah, of course.

Okay. All right. So this is from Brian. My soon-to-be ex wants the house and I'm willing to give it to her, but she can't afford to buy me out or qualify for the mortgage and wants me to be the only one on the financing for 3 years. I unfortunately don't trust her to pay the mortgage and don't want to deal with that challenge if it happens after the divorce is finalized. So now everything is getting dragged out, dragged out. Court dates are booking 18 months, and it's already been one year since divorce was filed by her. Do you have any suggestions? I actually have a good suggestion. There's a certified divorce lending professional. You know Tammy Wallensack, right, Scott? She's amazing, and she can work with your soon-to-be ex to see what the financing options are. And she's not the only certified divorce lending professional. There's there's lots of them, but she's really good. And so I would look into. You can also sign onto the mortgage with her as opposed to, you know, so that she's liable as well as you. I wouldn't not have her be liable, but that's really a question for a certified divorce lending professional, I think. Scott, don't you agree?

Oh, there's a concern there that the spouse wants to have a joint mortgage. Is that what it was?

Yeah, she can't afford to buy her out or qualify. She wants to be the only one on the financing for— she wants him to be the only one on the financing for 3 years.

But they— he— she would pay it, or he would?

She would pay it, but he would be the one on the financing.

But they already have a loan in place.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I mean, if you can't, if you can't, you know, change that loan into her name, there's protections that could be put into place Uh, in the marital settlement agreement. Um, not giving legal advice right now, but, uh, you know, you could say that if, uh, if she, uh, fails to, uh, make a payment, she has to notify you prior to the late date. So by like the 5th of every month, if she hasn't made a payment, that you could step in and make the payment and deduct and then basically be owed that amount. And if that happens once or twice or 3 times, usually it's more than once, but Twice or something, that you could then force a sale or a refinancing at that stage. Um, and if it's written well and clearly, then, you know, if there was resistance, if that clause were to be triggered, you know, the judge would read it. Um, you could get an ex parte, you know, next day if you had to.

What's an ex parte?

It's like where you go in where you don't have to wait 9 months to get a hearing. It's an emergency hearing, and the judge could say, oh yeah, it does say That if you were late twice, that, that this loan would have to go away. So you either have to sell it or you have 30 days to get them off the loan. So I mean, if, if you have the— if the, if the legal, uh, agreement, which is called the marital settlement agreement in California, is written well and you guys have talked through those steps, you can put protections in place. Um, but I have a lot of clients, um, that, uh, that are doing that now, that are staying on mortgages jointly. Because of the current rate.

Yep.

But it's typically more common in 2 places, really, like a long, long-term marriage where they're still, you know, friendly, um, but they, you know, one person like wants to kind of help the other person get into the house and stay there and is willing to stay on. In California, if you— if one person pays a mortgage for 12 consecutive months from a separately titled bank account, then if even if you're on that mortgage, it won't be held against you for qualifying for If you want to qualify for a separate loan. So if I have— if there's a $500,000 mortgage and I agree that I'll stay on that with my ex-spouse, if my ex-spouse makes those payments towards that mortgage for a year with, with an account just in their name, and then I go to buy something on my own, they're not going to say, oh, you can only qualify for this amount because you already owe $500,000. They'll let that go.

Wow.

I'm not sure if that's a— if that's nationwide, but that's something that happens in California.

That's good to know. I mean, that's— those are little things that people don't even have any idea about, which mediators can help you come up with those agreements because they know more about those things. So that's—

But there is a risk to staying on a loan, obviously. Like, you're tied to the loan, and if there's a ding because of, like, failure to pay, then you're considered dinged. But there are lots of things you could do to make that less likely to happen and still accomplish the other spouse's goal of staying there.

Right, right. Awesome. Another question. I'm in a similar situation, Brian. I'm proposing my over-controlling soon-to-be ex— those are words you don't want to use when you're in mediation with them. I am proposing my soon-to-be ex refinances or has to sell the house to refinance. Monthly mortgage will obviously go up with today's rates, so thinking of negotiating on walking away from equity but keeping 401 pension No alimony, etc., to equal the amount of current equity.

That doesn't make the loan go away though, right?

Well, she— I guess his soon-to-be ex would take over. Um, oh well, no, they wouldn't. To refinance, monthly mortgage will obviously go up. Yeah, so, so I guess she would take over the house and he would get the 401.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, those are sort of— those are the sort of things that you talk about all the time. And I'm mediating this morning We talked about mom in this case had 3 pensions, dad had one, but his was, you know, he makes more, so his is worth more. What is it worth? We don't really know, but they came up with an idea for these other assets to be, you know, shifted to her side in exchange for, you know, them just all keeping their own pensions. So those sort of trade-offs happen all the time.

All the time. Yeah. That's how you get to an agreement.

Yeah.

This is a good question. High conflict. What are the symptoms of mediation breakdown?

Yeah. The big one in my practice is failure to disclose, you know? So if one person thinks the other is hiding assets, I will never be able to tell someone for sure that they aren't right now. There are things I can help them do before just walking away. Um, so one thing is to get a certified divorce financial analyst to do some digging, try to see if there's some sort of paper trail that you can, that you can create that, that's showing the shifting of money. And what— and then you can start asking questions. Well, where's this? This, this amount came out of this. Where'd it go? Then you're starting to like try to put the person a little bit on the, you know, like with specifics. But if someone says, hey, You know, I think he's hiding assets. I think she's hiding assets. In mediation, there's not like a formal discovery process. I'm not issuing subpoenas, and that's— those are all litigation tactics. Um, I will never be able to tell someone 100%, like, you know, that they, that they're wrong or that they're right. Um, and if you believe that there's a failure to disclose and you're not, you're not, you don't know what the full puzzle is, Um, then you have to decide again, back to your priorities. Um, get— you have to start to think. I ask when people bring those things up to me, I say, what do you think's out there? Are we talking $100 grand? Are we talking a million? Do you literally not know? Do you think it could be a million? Is it more? No, it's like, I think maybe $25,000, $50,000. I said, okay, what's your priority?

Right.

Do you want to make— can you make a deal knowing that you don't know everything and I'm not going to be able to convince you? And I don't want to convince you, that's not my job. Uh, but like, I don't know if there's— if we're dealing with everything. I've put, you know, I've asked questions, you've asked questions, your, your attorney has emailed questions. We've all, you know, done our— the best we can. But so you have to decide, you know, is the failure to— like, is that concern overwhelming all the other needs that you have to make an agreement. Um, and but yeah, it's basically like failure to disclose. And unfortunately, you know, narcissists, you know, high conflict personalities, like the control is a failure to disclose.

Yeah. So I just had a discussion with a client today who— she said that her soon-to-be ex put his just base salary into their joint account and stopped putting the bonus and all the extra money. And I'm like, well, They— so she's worried about him hiding all this money. And I'm like, well, you know that he has a bonus. So he's got— so what would a mediator do in that, in that situation? Wouldn't you just say, well, where's the— The—

let's start digging. Get me a letter from your HR that says you didn't get a bonus. Let me see all of your pay stubs for the last 12 months. Let me see your W-2. Let me see your tax return. I mean, just like, you know, a company, a regular company, like if he owns— if he or she owns a company, then there's ways to like Nagel. Um, but, um, you know, Qualcomm doesn't care that you're going through a divorce. They're certainly not going to do anything to help or hurt you. So, right, the payment of your RSUs isn't— you know, they're your bonuses, your restricted stock units, your stock options. Like, if you work for a big company, that's going to continue uninterrupted.

And you can find that.

Yeah, we can dig. Um, or, you know, more my role— if I'm digging now, I'm the enemy. So I facilitate the digging by By putting into place a system for other people to dig, right? Um, you know, so I can stay up here because, you know, the other thing that will lose a mediation is if, if one person thinks I'm on the other side, right? So you have to be really careful like that. Um, you know, that, uh, bringing in those third parties to do that work is more effective than the mediator because the work— that the worst thing I can do for clients is to do something that's going to trigger the other person questioning my neutrality. Yeah, because then I'm hurting both of them because I'm not gonna be able to help them make a deal. Because then—

Who would you bring in? I mean, I know people who are financial mediators and that's all they do. Would you bring in someone like that or just your own CDFA?

Or no, I, I mean, for like digging through records to try to see, like, I have a CDFA that's really good at that, that's like goes through and she's a real her hourly rate because it's a lot of hours. So you don't want to limit the hours because you want them to grind to find stuff. So she's, she's really a good— um, her name is Tanya RA.

Uh, I gotta get her name from you.

Yeah, so she's really— and then I have other people that like, you know, for more, you know, different things. But like, if I'm trying to like have someone like that's gonna, you know, sniff out answers and like really look deeply into the accounts, that's, that's kind of my go-to.

Yeah, I know there's forensic accountants, but they're really expensive.

Yeah, this is— she's not a forensic accountant.

Yeah. Okay. Question from Veronica. If one party contacts the mediator or works through his assistant, does this communication have to be documented and the other party notified of this one-on-one conversation with the mediator or his assistant or her assistant?

Yeah, I mean, people have my direct lines. But I guess it depends. I, you know, if it's— if you're asking the question, I would probably not have the conversation.

Right, exactly.

You know, if you're— if there's any concern, like, have I done something wrong and does it need to be disclosed? Well, let's not have the conversation so that it's not a concern.

Right, exactly.

And let's keep everything to the group email. If it's about calendaring, what— I don't know what an assistant You know, would know that, like, you couldn't put in the, like, you know, the group email to the mediator and the spouse. And if it's that traditional, you know, setup where there's that sort of, you know, everyone's involved in the communication, is it, did you get the documents that we sent? Or did you— can you forward me this? Or, you know, when's the summary document going to be prepared? Like, I don't know what the communication would be that The assistant would be the direct go-to for, but I would say if you're having the question, don't, don't have the conversation.

Yeah. Good, good advice. How can you manage someone who wants all joint decision-making but drags decisions on and on with analysis paralysis? Yeah.

Thinkers, right? You're describing a thinker, I think, right? And you can't push a thinking personality. They need time and they don't respond well to being pushed and made to go faster, but you have to set expectations and timelines. You know, so, um, when do you think that you could have this decision made by? When do you think that your proposal will be in? When? And then you have to hold people to those timelines.

Well, and also, if you have joint decision-making and someone is dragging on a decision, like when to set an appointment or what doctor to go to, I think there's— you could put something in the mediation saying, like, if you don't get it— make it within a week, then it goes— the decision goes to the other parent.

Yeah. So like you were saying, like, I— okay, I understand. Yeah. So like, if it's, uh, You know, which school is our kid going to attend to, or which psychologist? Yeah, you can have, you know, the options are presented, or the, you know, the discussion is had, uh, with the other side, and they— and you could put in the mediation that they have 5 days to make a decision or, or to get back to you, or it's considered, you know, it's considered resolved.

Right, perfect.

But that's the sort of, uh, so like the permanency, like, um, with the high conflict personality, a lot of my those cases end up when they have kids involved, that you kind of have that parallel parenting option.

Yeah.

Which is basically to set up communication and interaction at a minimum so that you guys are, the school pickup, the pickups and the exchanges are through the school, that your exchanges are through one of those text app platforms so that you're not really engaging, the discussion topics are limited just to the issues of core health and education and wellbeing of the kids. So you're kind of setting up 2 paths that you can do really well in mediation. It's harder to do in litigation because it's not like as common for the courts to kind of set those paths up. And you need discussion about what are the topics that we're going to interact about, in what way, what's the response time going to be? If there's no response, what's the result? I mean, you kind of have to have those conversations in detail through mediation to get those answers. But, uh, parallel parenting, you know, and, and, you know, kind of setting up a path where you're, where you're kind of free of the person is really—

Yeah, and have very clear deadlines and stuff. That's really important. Very important. Um, would you use Garn-St. Germain Act to remove my name from the title and loan? Do you know what that is? No, I don't know what that is. Sorry. Um, okay, then we have— let me just get to some of the other questions. Uh, where do you begin? What are the top 5 questions to ask a mediator during the interview process? Well, you said a couple in the beginning.

Yeah, you know, I would, um, I would want to know, like, you know, what they did, what their, what their background and skills are in, in in resolving an impasse? You know, what's your experience in dealing with impasse? What happens when people are not in agreement? You know, you want to ask, you want to get the sense that if they have real expertise in resolving conflict, or are they just kind of paper shufflers that deal mainly with people that are kind of on board with each other?

Right.

So it's more than just Do I like Scott? Or yeah, his reviews are pretty good online. You really have to, you have to like, you have to find someone. And also, like I said, that's going to be solution-focused, idea-driven, creative. So maybe come up with some scenarios, like, like specifics, like if X, Y, or Z, you know, what do you, what would you do to if X, Y, or Z happens? Like, try to kind of project without saying, hey, Psycho over here. You know, this person is a real problem. Like, you can't say that, but like, really try to see if there, if there's someone that has that, that understanding that can help you, because there, there are a lot of different types of mediators and, and some of them go way more in depth.

Yeah. Um, another question from Brian. My ex has a business and will not provide the native QuickBooks documents. Is there a way to get them without going to trial?

Brian, I feel— I'm feeling for you a little bit here. You're dealing with some stuff. I'm sorry. Um, so yeah, um, first of all, it's the strength of the mediator. I mean, like I said, you can't— mediator can't be perceived as not neutral. But, um, a mediator also has to, uh, you know, command the— command the documents that are due. So mediation isn't a way to get out of, of discovery. And if someone had a business and they weren't willing to give up the materials that were necessary in order for us to value a business or understand what the income is or what the assets are in a business, then I just wouldn't be able to work with them. I mean, that's the end.

So I just wanted to give one little tip to working with someone who's high conflict. There's something called EAR. It's called empathy, attention, and respect. And people who are high conflict are very sensitive to being respected. So if you say something to them like, I respect what you're saying, or I respect that you feel that way, even just using that word respect makes them feel really good and will enable you to have a good kind of communication going forward. So that's like a little tip that you really want to keep a— keep mind on making them feel respected. Because you will get farther in your mediation, basically. Do you agree with that?

Yeah, make— making them feel like they're perched up, making them the hero. Back to kind of what we talked about earlier, which is like coming up with 2 options. All of a sudden, they're— they've come up with the option themselves in their own mind, and now they're talking through, oh yeah, what about this? And now they're in control. And but it started with your idea, so Yeah, giving them that, all those things are really important.

Yeah, I really respect your opinion. What do you think about this? You know, that's a, that's a good way to approach them.

Not really, that sort of understanding and that ability really comes from working with Jill, right? No, for real, like, you have to have that. You have to go in with— that's called, that's training, that's being prompted. Um, because most people that come in without that sort of help on the side, they're like You know, the second anything is said emotionally, they're, they're like, what'd you say? Like, it's just now we're going down the exact opposite path of where we want to be.

Right, exactly. And it's a, it's a huge business, you know, agreement that you're signing. It's not just a marital agreement. It's like your finances. So like, you really have to think logically and, and be in control if at all possible. It's hard, but it's really— well, so I want to end now. If you have more questions, please email us. I also wanted to let people know to email me at info@divorcecoachjill.com. I will give you this communications sheet that I have on dealing with high-conflict people. Scott, where can they contact you?

Yeah, you can contact me. I'm at sandiegofamilylawyer.net. And, uh, but I'm all over. Yeah, Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper is my name. I, I worked with a person from the— it was a member of the Pala tribe, like in 2012. And at that, when we were all signing the, you know, the divorce agreement, uh, he said, uh, you're mine, you're my Chief Peacekeeper. I said, oh, I'm gonna steal that from you.

That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much, and thank you all for coming, and Um, we wish you very easygoing mediations with your high-conflict soon-to-be ex.

Yeah, wishing you guys the best.

Thank you.