Co-Parenting Coach Extraordinare Jay Skibbens Speaks With Chief PeaceKeeper™ Scott Levin

Hey everyone, this is Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper. I'm here with my good friend Jay Skivins. How are you, Jay?

I'm doing good, man. I'm glad you reached out.

Yes, my good friend by, by way of the internet.

Where's Instagram now, man? We're all friends.

2022, right? Uh, yeah. So, uh, I just want to kind of introduce Jay, uh, and his, his practice, his background, and, and how he helps people in the divorce world. As everyone knows, I'm a Family law attorney, uh, but I only practice in what's called mediation. So thus the Chief Peacekeeper, uh, moniker that I gave myself.

I mean, you gotta, you gotta have a brand, man. I appreciate that. I like that.

Um, so Jay, uh, can you kind of tell us a little bit about your background? I don't want you to have to rehash the whole, the whole thing, but basically Jay was a teacher by trade, is now, uh, one of the preeminent divorce, uh, and, and, and custody and parenting coaches that works with people going through the divorce process and post-divorce to try to help them, you know, with parenting and custody issues and keeping the peace and, and raising those kids and focusing all the energy on, on their well-being. So Jay, could you kind of walk our, our viewers today through that, like, transition and how you got to where you are?

Yeah, man. Well, thank you. Preeminent, man. I like that. I like the sound of that. So that was, that was nice. Um, But no, honestly, so what I had my kids, the first one in 2015, 2014, I should probably know that. And at that point I didn't have like a career set up, so I went back to school to teach because I kind of always played around with that idea. And then like when I started going to school, I was like, oh, this is going to be my career. Like I saw the, I saw the teacher to assistant principal to principal. timeline laid out. I had the plans. I even taught at the junior high that I went to. So there's this whole prodigal son coming home. But what ended up happening is that I was naively shocked at how political education is. And the way that I wanted to help and the way that I saw— and what I saw as important for the students, because I taught 6th grade, so they're like— 11, 12, just about hitting puberty, going through all those changes. The way I wanted to help them wasn't how the school saw. So we just had a, like, a philosophy difference, right? That just— they didn't appreciate what I wanted to do, and I didn't appreciate what they wanted to do. So then my next step was like, okay, I'll go to social work. Social workers, you know, they're doing the work for the adults. I can just do that. And what I really got into is that the systems of social work and the system of education are somewhat similar. They're like set up that like there's like a— there's a person who has all the information and that they kind of give it to who they see fit. And if you do the right things, you get more of it kind of an idea. And what ended up happening is that especially through COVID, 2020, yeah, 2020 summer hit.

I know, it's no— I don't even remember when COVID hit.

It's a different— pre-COVID is a different world.

Yeah.

But that summer, you mean, you couldn't go on Facebook without like bumping into an argument, right? Like you could— somebody could say the grass is green and somebody would be like, no, mine's brown and mine's better, right? And it was just, it was terrible. So what I started doing was I like on my personal page, I just started asking open-ended questions like, you know, what's a childhood memory that means a lot to you? Or like, what does honesty mean to you? And I started getting a lot of attention. Like, I started getting a lot of people commenting, interacting with each other. And it was like, it became very quickly evident that I had something there, that like, people need this, maybe now more than ever. So I re— I, you know, at that time I was listening to a lot of podcasts. I reached out to a couple of podcast hosts that I knew were coaches, right? Because, you know, coaches ask questions. So then I, you know, one of them got back to me and kind of set me on this road of getting certified as a coach. And then I went through a couple of programs to help me understand what coaching really means. And then it wasn't until like September of 2021, like the— just this, you know, about 6, 7 months ago, you know, I wanted to be a parent coach because I really— I've always worked with kids. I really like kids. But once I started talking about co-parenting, it was like, okay, like people, they know, no fault of their own, but they've got no idea. People have no idea how to co-parent. And I've been doing this for 8 years at this point. So I've been through that crap, dude. I've been through the mess. I've been, I've made all those mistakes. I have, I have lived and breathed the both sides of the boundary setting and boundary breaking and The, the frustration and the, the contempt. I've, I've lived that, man. So once I started talking about that, people really started paying attention.

What do you think about, um, I, I've, I have a prepared list of questions, but I'm going off the cuff here.

Okay.

When someone— so I had someone come to me yesterday and, and basically, you know, I work with— I'm hired by both parties to a divorce or to a post-divorce, like when they need the child custody, uh, solutions. Um, and, and this person came in with their, with their ex-spouse and said, uh, that per— that, that person next to me over there, not even looking at them, uh, is 100% at fault for the situation we find ourselves in. When someone brings that kind of statement to you, what are your thoughts in coaching with that? Because you're— and you're mainly Or always just working with one side, one parent at one time?

Yeah, so I, I mean, for me, coaching is you have to be invested in it and you have to be committed to it. So I can't coach somebody who's forced to be there. It just isn't going to work. They're not going to do anything, and then they're not going to get anything out of it, and then neither one of us win. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm coaching with the person who wants to grow, who wants to change, who wants a better situation. So what— and it's funny because that exact that's a lot of times why people come to me. It's like, well, I need to figure out how to deal with them. They're the worst. They're terrible. And I just had somebody finish up a program. And what she told me was like, you know, I came to you and I thought that I needed help fixing my co-parent. I thought that I needed help fixing my kid and my parents, right? Because even her parents were kind of involved in the mess. And, you know, as she finished the program, she was like, I just realized that it was all about me and like what I can do and what I can control and like my mindset and perspective on things. Once I was able to focus on those things and focus on myself, everything started to change. And to me, that's why, like, you know, choice is the biggest word in this whole process to me because, you know, we have a choice. Like, you know, outside of abuse, which I know changes the conversation, we have a choice in how we respond and if we respond and what we think of the other person. And if we continue to tell ourselves stories that they're the bad guy, and that they're the cause of everything, then we have to wait on them to change for our life to get better. And I just didn't— I don't want to wait. I, I don't want— I don't want my— the people I work with to wait either, because I mean, you know, I know if you have to wait on somebody else for your life to get better, like, you're gonna go gray before you have anything good happen.

So when someone comes to you and, and you're trying to get them to focus on themselves Is one of the things that you're trying to coach them up on is, is how to respond and maybe not respond, not giving in to temptation when the other person is trying to bait you. What I, what I often tell people during divorce, especially at our first meeting in mediation, is, look, if one of you is baiting the other person by sending those texts that got you here to begin with, or, you know, is saying those mean things, if the— if you can just stop responding and just give them the understanding that you're not going down that road anymore, the other person will stop. They'll get on board. They'll get on this new direction train eventually. But you have to have it in yourself to be maybe the better person at the beginning by not giving in. Is that something that you talk with people about?

Honestly, 100%. And a big way that I do that is that I help them focus on what they want, because a lot of times in these separations, in these divorces, in co-parenting, we are like, oh, I just want what's best for my kids. I just need my kids to be okay. I want what's best for my kids. And what parents don't realize is that the best thing you can do for your kids is for you to have a vision and you to go after that vision. So if, if you're fighting and arguing about something with your co-parents, if it's like— if you're not thinking about what you want, you're only fighting against what they are saying. So to me, it's like, if you can focus, put your blinders on, create a vision, and work towards that, it becomes easier to, to not pay attention to what they're doing. Because what they're saying and what they're doing and what they're asking or what they're saying about you isn't getting you closer to your vision. So don't pay attention to it. Like, if it's not helping you get there, Don't even respond. Like, put the phone down.

So do you recommend— how strongly do you recommend, if at all, those parenting apps that we all know about? Or do you try to encourage people to be in direct text or SMS or email communication?

So, and this is where, uh, I, I really defer to, to lawyers and people who have the, the legal expertise. I want— like, especially if you're still in the process or that's an option, I would rather you be safe than sorry. Like, I think that what I do is great, but I know that like, if you're like, well, my coach said this, and you're in court, like, they're gonna be like, whatever, dude. Like, where's the text? Where's the email? So I actually have a close relationship with Talking Parents, like that app. And I really like what they do because what they're trying to get to is that is beyond just the high-conflict people that like, you know, they have shared calendars so that like, even if you're getting along, it's like, hey, You know, we got taekwondo practice on Tuesday and we got basketball practice on Friday. So that way it's not just, oh, well, you said this, so I'm going to print it off and show it to my lawyer. It's like, hey, we can actually use this app to, to get along and to move things forward. It's not just for high-conflict people.

Yeah. And the thing I really like about Talking Parents too is that you can make quick edits to the calendar. Like, I'm running late at work, can you get them at taekwondo? And it's like, It's all about just the adjustment to that calendar. It's not like the back and forth of like, oh, of course you are, you know, and getting down that road, uh, of, you know, the drama. It's more about just like quick changes. And as we all know with parenting calendars, when— especially during shared custody, they're good. The parties are going to make about 10 trillion adjustments to the parenting calendar over time just because of life getting in the way.

Yeah, exactly.

So tell me about, like, um, I know that Jay works, uh, primarily with, I guess, would you describe it that the most, the most interested parties, say most of your clients are either the primary caregiver or, and/or like 50/50 custody sharing arrangements? Tell us about like, who, who do you find reaching out to you the most?

So the people reaching out to me the most are people who, yeah, are either the primary caretaker or 50/50. but feel like they're doing the primary mental load part, that they're the ones scheduling everything, they're the ones coordinating the appointments, the practices, and are expressing frustration at carrying that weight of they're thinking about the mental and emotional well-being of the kid. They feel like they are doing the majority of the thinking. And to me, what I find the more that I talk to people in that situation is that it tends to be overthinking and overcompensating for what they perceive is the lack of emotional well-being or emotional support from the other parents. And we really dig into that because I don't want anybody parenting based— like, I don't want their parenting philosophies based on overcompensating. Like, I want you to be the parent you're supposed to be and trust that that's more than enough for your kid.

Yeah, no, I think that— so, so who, um, can you say, like, who— what does that person look like? That's— I did my— I kind of want to get at— yeah, uh, I, I was— I, I became aware of Jace Gibbons, uh, from a conversation I had with Michelle Dempsey of Moms Moving On. And, uh, and Mish— and I asked Michelle, like, who do you think is out there kind of advocating for you know, dads in the way that she advocates for moms. But I know in talking with Jay and being friends with him is that most of his clients are women. Um, so I guess my question is, in a long roundabout way here, how come we don't see men reaching out as much as women reaching out for, for coaching? Men get personal trainers, men have coaches growing up for football, basketball. We know the importance of, uh, not just shooting hoops on our own, but getting someone to tell us Now, how does that crossover work? Or how do you back someone down or whatever it is? We've gotten coaching a lot in our lives. But when it comes to the most important thing in our lives, which is our children and their well-being and this co-parenting relationship we find ourselves in, why aren't more men reaching out for help, do you think, if that's the case?

Well, and so it's awesome that you use the basketball because there was a dad that I coached that like one of the things that we talked about when we first started off, he was like, hey, I just need like, if I'm shooting free throws and my elbow starts going out too much, I need to be there to like help me understand that my elbow is like flaring out too much. And to me, part of the reason that dads aren't reaching out to me as much is because the identity of a mother is so well defined in society, right? Like, we know that moms take care of everything. We know that moms like cook and clean. And, and I only say these things because they're stereotypes. I don't believe these things, but that is the stereotypical role of a mom to to handle everything, and that dad's there to provide or to be the disciplinarian or to do the sports type of thing. So when— once the couple splits, or once the, the 2 people split, the role of the dad is much more like undefined. Like, how are you providing if you're only with your kid 50% of the time? Or if you're a part-time dad, how do you discipline when you only have them for a weekend? Like, how— like, to me, it's like, how do you not be the fun dad? How do you not let the rules go a little bit? Because say your kid comes to your house on a Saturday and they do something that, you know, should have a consequence, but they leave at, you know, noon the next day. How do you follow through with that? So I think that a lot of dads are just in that space of, I'll just do the best I can. I'll figure this out. Some of them are probably thinking like, I'm doing better than my dad did. My dad wasn't even around. So So like, why, why do I need to be doing better? And I think that there needs to be a bit more of dads in that position because for me, I'm a primary caretaker. So like, I have the kids the majority of the time. So when I talk about what I'm going through, I talk about what my clients are going through. I, I think that for the most part, I'm talking to moms or that honestly, some moms. So I think that what needs to start happening is there needs to be dads who are voicing the— like being the voice of the every other weekend dad or the every other weekend and Tuesday dad or the 50/50 dad who doesn't make all the appointments. They don't have a voice, so they don't know where to go. So I think that that's where like fatherhood is super important to me, but it's hard to me to be like, all right, well, this is what you should tell your co-parent dad that he should be doing because we know that that doesn't We know that.

Yeah, totally.

That's really—

it's a really, really interesting point. Uh, you know, I do a lot of— my wife has a very much 9 to 9 job, I call it, but like 9 to 5. And, you know, she is totally unavailable during the day and when things happen. And I have a job where I work for myself, so I'm— so I do the drop-offs and the pickups and the post, uh, you know, um post-pickup, you know, meal making, and then I go back to work when she comes home, or, you know, when we have a sitter or whatever we arrange. But it's, it's very different, you know, when I do the drop-offs and the pickups, I'm seeing all the moms mainly. And, you know, doing the, you know, the school activities and the, and the, you know, all the stuff I'm able to do that I love to do. But like you said, I mean, although it's stereotypical, There's just less of the dads out there than the moms. And, uh, I don't think that, you know, that, that thinking energy— I do agree with you, that is more of a, of a mom thing. And I could see why moms are reaching out for more help than dads.

Well, and I, I couldn't agree more. And I'm glad that you even just said that, like, you do that stuff too, because I think that that's part of the conversation. And I think that there's also— because as a man and as a dad, I you know, I'll speak for myself and you can agree or disagree. Like, respect is huge. Like, the legacy that I'm leaving is huge. And I think that it can be tough for a dad who's in a spot where he feels like he's not doing enough to be like— to feel like they're respected, to feel like they are contributing how much they want to be. And especially if there's contention between the two parties, it's like, well, why even try? Like, I'm not getting the respect. I'm not getting this. Like, You're making it hard on me, and I just want you to respect me. So it can be, it can be really tricky for them to continue to step up if they're not being seen that way.

Yeah, no, I love that. Um, so I have one question I wrote down here that I want to get to, and I, and I know Jay's real busy, so we're not going to take too much more time. Jay, if, if 2 parties are, are, are, you know, beginning this process of, of transitioning from married to part— co-parenting partners, is— are there— is there, you know, 1, 2, 3 pieces of advice that you could offer to help them get from where they are to where they want to be if they want to co-parent effectively?

Yes. So to me, what could have been part of the separation is when things aren't defined. Like, if with you and your job and me and my job We have pretty clear ideas of what our job duties are. I know what I need to be doing on a daily basis to be successful. Once you split— co-parenting is this thing that none of us really grew up having too much of an idea of what it looks like. No real role models, nobody on TV, nobody in movies. We've got no idea. So what I really try to do with clients right off the bat is like, we've got to define what it means for you to be a co-parent. We've got to make definitions. We've got to get clear cuts. So that you know what you're supposed to be doing. Because in like your job and my job, if I feel like I've got to be doing everything every day, then I'm going to burn out real fast. So I've got to have clear definition of, of what I need to be doing. And then becomes the— I need to figure out what my triggers are, because like you said, if, if them texting me triggers me, I've got to figure out how to handle that. If seeing them triggers me, I gotta, you know, and then if they bring around another person, I've got to figure out what my triggers are and I've got to be able to handle them. And there are effective ways to, to really minimize the impact of triggers because that way you can get to that. And it goes in this order, like define what's going on, handle your triggers, and then start to healthily communicate because that's— you can't just try to communicate healthy off the bat because you've got what you think should be happening and they've got what they think should be happening. And if you haven't done that initial work first, when you try to communicate, it's gonna go to shit. So the, the truth of the matter is, is that the communication piece comes third because then after you can get to a place where you're calm, then you can be like, okay, this is how I feel, this is how I see things. This is what I want. And it's less about, well, you said this, you said that, and now we're fighting. Once you get past like the triggers, you can start to communicate. And that honestly, that's, that's a huge part of the early process with anybody that I talk to.

No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you already got to the point by going back in time and saying, well, your mom and your dad and your brother, your friends, and you made me lose my friends. That's already happened. We got to focus now on where we're going and what we want. out of this relationship and for our kids. So I think that's really great advice. Um, Jay, can you— I'm gonna write all of your links and everything, but can you briefly just let people know where they can find you?

Yeah, right now I am operating mainly out of Facebook and Instagram. So I do all of my reels, all my posts are on Instagram @jasegibbons. And then I have a pri— a private Facebook group for single parents and co-parents called Single Parenting on Purpose. And it is private, but it's open to everybody. So if you are single parenting full-time, if you're co-parenting, it's just a really good place for community. I think that one of the things that single parents and co-parents feel like they're, they're doing it alone and that nobody else understands. There's about 600 people in there right now that understand what you're going through. So I really want that for community. And then all of my coaching, uh, ideas and posts are on Instagram.

And Jay can be engaged by anyone worldwide, not just in Illinois where he is, but, uh, You know, I, I've been following Jay for a while. Like I said, I really love— if you've watched me, you know that I'm just about peacekeeping. So not always easy, not always possible. But, you know, if you guys can do it and work with each other, I just think that's a lot healthier for co-parenting relationships in the future. Having 2 lawyers do all the talking for you often doesn't leave you guys— leave people capable of dealing with each other down the road, and you're not going to continue to pay people $600 an hour to talk for you forever. So I believe that Jay is a really, really exceptional option and opportunity for people to get on that peacekeeping track and to, you know, like you said, I've already got some grays. I don't see many on him. You don't want to wait until you're fully gray to get your life in a place where you want it. And so you know, reach out to Jay and, uh, and hear what he has to say and join this group. So, all right everybody, I'm gonna stop it here. Thanks a lot, Jay, for joining me today.

No, thanks, Scott. I appreciate it, man.

All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon.