Divorce Tips With Chief PeaceKeeper Scott Levin & Laila Aitken Ali Divorce Coach

Hello, everyone. Welcome. I'm Laila Aitken Ali, a divorce coach and the founder of Split FYI. And with me today is the one and only Scott, who is a mediator, who's an amazing mediator. And we're going to be talking about mediation as the best solution for a divorce.

Normally, yes, I agree with you.

Well, let's say it's the first point of solution that people should go to, right?

Yes.

And Scott and I talk a lot about how can we make the alternative a better solution for anyone going through a divorce and separation or have it more amicable, as amicable as possible. And also, you know, the outcome to be that people are happy with it. And, you know, being happy with it means that you didn't get into the jugular and the fight and, you know, feeling sideswiped, right? So one of the things that we were talking about, I said, oh, we should go live with, is that, you know, I'm tending to find that a lot of people have this apprehension around mediation. You know, they sit there and they say, well, all my friends and my family keep telling me, just get a lawyer, don't go for mediation, it's a waste of time. And on the contrary, it really isn't. Because I always say, well, if 2 people have already decided we want to do mediation, that's a start. And that start should be fostered, right? So, and also, I think they're getting misguided by— it's bad advice, in my opinion, but they're getting misguided by the fact that only a lawyer is going to be the best solution. And I do say that if you are kind of afraid of going up against your ex, then maybe a good solution is to have a consulting lawyer, which I'm sure that you often advise your clients to do themselves. So let's put this to bed, this notion that it's a bad idea to get a mediator.

Yeah, I mean, I hear that. I think there's a lot of people that are skeptical. Especially when one party wants to do mediation, the other one, you know, is wondering, you know, what's the endgame here? What are they really doing? Are they trying to screw me over? You know, what I tell people is that you definitely should get a consulting attorney if you have those fears. Because a consulting attorney and/or a certified divorce financial analyst, one of the two, can give you the range of like what a good deal looks like for you, what an okay deal or reasonable deal would look like for you, what a bad deal looks for you. Like, what is— what do those look like? So that when you go into the mediations and you start making arrangements or little mini agreements, you're coming at it from a place of knowledge. So you're not guessing. Like, you're like, oh no, I know that if this is what it ends up being, this is good. This is in the range of good for me. Or the range of reasonableness. So yeah, having those, you know, those education partners that can advise and give you education and empower you in advance of the mediation really can be great. And then, of course, you could always have an attorney come to the mediations too. You know, usually what happens when that— when one party announces that You know, they're going to have their attorney there. The other one usually, you know, says, okay, well then I'll get my attorney to be there too. And the downside of having 2 attorneys and 2 parties and a mediator all together is that it's 5 people trying to speak. You know, the mediator is trying to do the least amount of speaking usually if they're doing their job right. But, you know, 5 people trying to speak, 5 people trying to get, you know, everyone's attention. to make points. Usually not a lot gets done in those sessions, but what happens is you do 1 or 2 sessions with the attorneys. The parties then see, like, they start getting the pressure of the bills from those attorneys and the mediator, because everyone's getting paid for that time, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then they start to realize, like, hey, well, maybe, you know, we hired the mediator originally, They said that they typically work without— with like just directly with the parties without their attorneys there. We've seen how it works with our attorneys there already. Maybe we have one session where it's just us and the mediator, and then at that session a lot gets done.

Right.

And then you bring back the attorneys, you know, you know, to kind of advise and consent at the end. So like you might have like 1 or 2 meetings with the attorneys. Then people start going, man, this is expensive. How do I shut this valve of attorney's fees off? Well, how you do that is you meet directly with the mediator and you come up with solutions that you and your spouse could come up with most likely already originally, but you just delayed it a few sessions. And then you, you know, then you get the attorneys on board with, you know, the decisions you've made.

So, you know, going back to education, and I, you know, we say this a lot in In the divorce world, I mean, the most important thing to empower yourself with is education around divorce itself, right? And I think getting a consulting lawyer is really important to understand, by and large, your rights. However, there's also that factor is, even when it goes down, let's take it back to even finding a mediator. You know, get educated on what are the things to ask, what are the things to prepare ahead of time.

Mm-hmm.

Right, so that you're not sitting there wondering around certain things while you're in the session. You're already prepared. Like, you know, I know our assets, I know where we stand. I've been educated by that. I went through all the questions and the answers. I figured this out. I am prepared to come in here and understand, like, I know I would love this, but if I can't have this, what am I prepared to go Or, you know, what's my plan B? What's my plan C? Your own, not just what the, what the lawyer says, right? It's what you want. Because there's a, there's a part like what the law says, and then there's part like what is— what means something to you.

Yeah.

And what means something to the other person? And can you guys— are they the same things? All right, well, if they're same things, so how can you guys divide that Amicably, right? Is there a solution to that? Or is it something that the other person likes this and you want this? And maybe, oh, well, there's a trade, you know, but find that by only— you can only find that when you know what you want.

Yeah, yeah. You can't be walking through the woods at night without being able to see.

No.

And, you know, it's interesting, you said something earlier about, you know, how one party oftentimes feels like the mediator One party might not even want mediation, but they do it. And then now they're in mediation and they feel like, hey, this mediator's not on my side.

Right.

Or they're on the other person's side. And a mediator should never be on anyone's side. But one of the ways that I find that you can deal with that from the mediation side is that when you get the first call or when you get that first interaction with the client, I always say, you know, I'd love to speak with you. But the first step for, for you and for us is to, is to get your spouse on the phone and do this together. That's because, you know, you entered the marriage together. And you need to exit the marriage together, even from the first interaction with the mediator. If your mediator is having a long consultation call outside of the room of you, you got to wonder, like, that starts that wonderment process. Like, I wonder what they spoke about. Now, even if you get that same time with the mediator, now you— now they've just doubled down, and now you're getting that 45 minutes to tell your side and all the junk that comes out. It's just how I— how I've been doing this a long time. So how I've deciphered the best way to handle any new client relationship, even if I lose a lot of clients, because I do, when I say, hey, you know, it's really the 3 of us need to get together. And have this conversation together now, or we can schedule it. And a lot of people aren't ready for that. So, you know, they go off and find someone else. But having the confidence in knowing that your mediator really isn't outcome-oriented, like they don't care who wins and who loses— there's really no winners or losers, right? It's all about solutions. And it's all about creating joint solutions through joint communication. And having people, you know, know that you're not having those backwards calls or, you know, side conversations with the other side. So yeah, it's just— you mentioned that earlier, and I just kind of think like, if you're setting the tone as a mediator from conversation one, that, look, hey, I've been doing this a long time. There's other people that do this too, if you want to explore using them, but if you use me, I'm going to be down the middle. I don't care. what the outcome is. I just don't want you to get stuck in the divorce process because there's nowhere— no one wins when people are stuck in divorce for 2 and a half years.

No way.

Go through, you know, 4 different lawyers and blah, blah, blah, the whole rigmarole.

So, and then you're— and then you've lost all the money you're trying to negotiate about anyway. So, I mean, you're back to ground zero. So, and I agree with you. I mean, it brings me to the other point and probably the final. I know we're going to make this a short one, but one of the points that you said earlier is like, it brings me to— I feel that everyone wants to feel heard. They want to have their story, you know, be told and be heard and their position, right, be told. So what I say to that is, in anything, I think there is a position statement that they should create. And I don't know if you work this way, but I always say if both parties can just create their position statement around Their their lives together, you know, maybe the demise of their relationship the way they see it, but not something that is going to be talked about when within the mediation. Because the problem is, is I find that they sometimes use it as a therapy session, and I've seen that, and I personally have gone through that. So I know, you know, and you're in there, and you're like, this is not supposed to be the moment where we're, you know, saying bad things about each other, or you know, they never listen, and they do this, and da da da. It's it's that just becomes. that downward spiral where nobody is really hearing what's on the table. There's not negotiation anymore. This is like a therapy session.

So true. And, you know, those, those conversations can get very volatile if you're on that path. Yeah. You know, they get— they go from— you start going down that path, and then all of a sudden you got screaming, like, you know, you know, not too far from there. So what I try to do is bring people back and I say, okay, look, This is what I believe you're saying in terms of what you want on this issue. What is the counteroffer from you, miss or sir?

Right.

Like, you have to have an offer in order to have a substantive conversation. And when you're just blaming each other or talking generally, it doesn't lead to productive conversation. Now, I'll let people talk about that stuff. Like, if they want to have a conversation about You know, if it gets brought up and how they got to my office, I want people to get it out of their system because I know once it's out of their system, they can move on. But obviously, you know, I need to be careful that it doesn't become too biting and personal because the other person has to kind of take it. And then they can give it back if they really want to. When, when, but like, I do, I do ask them to like listen and not just like You know, mediation isn't about waiting for you, like looking at the other person's mouth and waiting until you see them take a breath and then you jump in, right? No, it's about like listening, letting it sink in, understanding like where this person's coming from. And then if you have a response that you want to share, great. But it's not about like waiting for them to take a breath so you can start speaking.

So on that note, there's a couple things I tell my clients. do to prepare themselves in this situation when they're quite nervous if they're going to go up against their ex and they're like, oh, well, he's more savvy or she's more savvy, or, you know, I just go, I don't know what to say or to think, or I don't know how to respond, or I get triggered. You know, all these emotions that come up because it is an emotional process, right? And I always say, always take a pause. And if that means say something like, What I'm hearing is. So if the other person is saying something, I always say what helps me is going, wait a minute, what I'm hearing is this, and repeat what you're hearing, right, from that other person. Like, if they say, oh, you're never a good mom and you're never this, okay, so what I'm hearing is I'm not a good mom. Let me get this straight. And it gives you a pause to just go, how ridiculous is that statement? And you know that it's not the truth. And it gives you just that barrier, right? Also, another thing is if don't like the way the negotiation's going, or you don't like what the other person is proposing, then I always say, say, that's a good start. And that's it, and leave it at that. So these are the things I've told my clients that really help them because they're so nervous. I go, just keep those in mind. Those are the only 2 things you really need is that's a good start, or what I'm hearing is, and it just gives it a good—

Because what I'm hearing is makes you listen. Because you don't know how many times I have listened to one, like, you know, dad talk and say, she's such a great mom. And then of course, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And mom just doesn't hear the compliment, or dad doesn't. But like, then they go, I can't believe you think that I'm a bad mom.

And then— Right.

Well, no, I didn't say— I said, I did say some bad stuff, but I said bad stuff about our marriage and how you co-parent. But I did say you're a good mom because I know you love our kids and you protect them and all that. But they don't hear it. So I really like that idea that you come up with because it forces them to hear it.

And it also gives you just a pause. Like I say, it's a barrier because our minds, reptilian brains in this scenario, they're not thinking straight. Right. We feel attacked. We feel scared. We feel like, oh my God. We're negotiating our lives. Like, it's a tough position to be in, right? And I just— it gives you a pause. And I think that also with, that's a start, is another flip side, because, because you're not closing the argument down. You're not saying it's my way or the highway. You're not saying your idea is ridiculous. You're just saying, that's a start. Let's start there. Let's figure that out.

Right.

And, and it's just softer, and it doesn't get the other person's back up. So these are the 2 things I know have worked for me. And so I obviously have, you know, and listen, it's hard to remember, but if you only remember those 2, that's what I say. And so maybe you can tell your clients that, like, listen.

No, I think those are really cool. Brilliant. I love it.

Thank you.

You're good at what you do, my friend.

Thank you very much. It's good. You know, and I love it when they listen and they do those things. It's even better. And they call me up and they're like, it worked. It was great. And, you know, you really see that empowerment. that happens that they're on the right track. You just want to keep them in the mediation, keep them on the right track. Remember, the alternative is very expensive and, I mean, heart-wrenching in so many ways and long. So just keep it in the right track.

Someone told me— I did a consult today and someone was like, so how do we know? Because, you know, unfortunately I do charge money. Yeah, there's a cost. Um, and, uh, we all— the dad goes, how do I know? Like, how do we know that we're not going to get into this first 90 minutes and realize that we're not going to figure this out and it's just going to be a big waste of time and money. And I go, well, the waste of time and money will be a fraction. I mean, it's in perspective, right?

Yeah.

Of what you will be incurring. The average litigated divorce in Southern California takes 2.5 years. That's the average, not like the high. So that's 2 years of your life. So, like, would you give up, you know, a weekly 90-minute session, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 times to try to avoid that 2.5-year, you know, alternative? I mean, I would all day long. But yeah, you might not get anything figured out at meeting 1 or 2, but it's about the momentum. And if 2 people are committed to the process, they will achieve positive results. It's just maybe not on the first or second or third meeting. But if they remain committed and show each other that they're each committed, they will eventually show grace to each other and they'll be good to each other and they'll want to find a solution that's acceptable for both of them.

100%. 100%. And I definitely say that, you know, it is tough in the beginning. You have to kind of ride it out. And anything in life, you need to give at least 3 times, right? And so you've got to give it that, you know, 3 to 6 times. And in this case, it really is an educational process too. So, you know, nobody is 100% prepared when they go into mediation. They're learning a lot while they're going through this, and they're dealing with their healing process and emotions. It's a lot to take on, so you've got to give it that time and space. Um, and also you have to have that mindset. That mindset is like, I want this to be successful because it's going to be way better for our whole family. Yeah. And our pockets. Done.

No, I just had a client. We, uh, I went— my kids played in the championship soccer game for like their rec league on Saturday. And on the other side was I noticed a couple that I had helped divorce, but I never say anything to the people unless they come up to me because it's confidential, etc. So they came up to me after the game and they were sitting next to each other and they were like, hey, Scott. And I was like, we were kind of on the side. I was like, it's so great to see you guys together at the game. And they were like, I mean, it was nothing like I didn't have any superpower. This is just because they were good to each other during mediation.

Right. I happened to be their mediator.

And they were like, it's really, you know, it's the greatest thing because we've had, you know, a lot of friends get divorced lately and they didn't go the mediation route. And they just never— they're like, literally don't go to the games together at all. Like, one goes to Saturday's game, the next one goes to the next week's game. Sad for the kids, you know, not to be able to see both parents.

That's it. I mean, that's the end of the— you know, it's kind of— I always say, I think you and I kind of work for the kids, right? At the end of the day, we're working for the kids in many ways when they're—

Absolutely.

That's what people ask.

they say, so do you represent me? And I go, well, I kind of represent your futures and if they have kids.

Exactly. Exactly. Um, and you know, you and I both have kids, so it's like one of those things that we get it, you know. And I, I say, I go, I feel like I was robbed in many ways going the litigation route of my, you know, having that presence with my child. It takes a lot out of you. It really does. And you can't be, you can't be 100% in any You know, place. So I'd rather have spent it a lot more with a lot more energy towards my child than going in and out of court. So I am a big proponent of mediation, and I love talking to you, Scott. We'll do many more.

Thank you.

Please let everyone know how they can find you.

Yeah, just, uh, I'm Chief Peacekeeper Scott Levin, so just search Chief Peacekeeper on anywhere and you'll find me.

Chief Peacekeeper. I love it.

Yes. I work throughout California, and I'm a family law attorney, but I'm the type of attorney that helps people resolve disputes outside of court. So it's called mediation. And if you're looking for anything like that, just search Chief Peacekeeper.

Yes. And we've got in our Split FYI portal, which everybody should go check out at www.splitfyi.com, we have some other lives that we've had with with Scott and, um, very informative, always informative. So do check that out. And, um, thank you for being with here.

Thank you.

Thank you.