Holistic Approach to Divorce: Scott Levin and Jill Kaufman Share Insights

Welcome, everybody. I am excited to be here with you. We are talking about a holistic approach to divorce, an overview to integrating legal, financial, and emotional strategies. We are so lucky to be here with Scott Levin, who is a former litigator. He's an attorney, a mediator, and calls himself A chief peacekeeper, which is exactly what we want when we're going through divorce. Scott, can you introduce yourself a little more?

Yeah. Hi, everyone. I'm Scott Levin. I'm an attorney in California. I'm a CDFA certified divorce financial analyst. I have a finance background. I was litigating for many years. I stopped in 2014 when my second kid was born. I have 3 boys, and I just choose to help people through mediation so that— I'm a big believer that getting through the legal process is the key to health. You know, getting stuck in the legal— in the divorce process only leads to more expensive divorces, more costly emotional harm and damage to children. Now, mediation is not the answer to everybody. Litigation is not the answer to everybody. So I'm not assigning if you're in a litigated case or a contested case, and that sometimes can't be avoided, right? But generally speaking, you— my clients over the last 20 years, I've seen they feel better about themselves and their family and their finances after they get the legal process done. And so I help people Navigate that, uh, you know, in a quicker way.

Yes, absolutely. And that's all we're about. Um, I think you and I are aligned, um, with getting people through their divorce quicker and more peacefully for the good of everybody. And, uh, so that's what this workshop is about. And so, um, in terms of, you know, the physical you know, a holistic process, a holistic divorce process. It's taking into account the physical, emotional, and mental impact of the process. And so, you know, when you're thinking about what a divorce attorney typically tells their clients, they're trying to get their clients to get the best deal for them financially and the parenting situation that they want. And If they don't take into account the emotional, mental health, and physical parts of this and the effect of this, they could be advising their client to do something that's not in the best interest of the client. And, you know, in the past, attorneys are not supposed to take all of those things into account. They're supposed to advocate for their client. And get them, you know, quote, the best deal, right? Isn't that typically what, you know, the past 40 years that attorneys do?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in doing that work, what attorneys essentially do is position their client against the other side. And so it's a battle for a winner and a loser, and that's how they approach it. And The reality, unfortunately, is that when you are forced in to go navigate a path where one of you will win and one of you lose, you actually both lose. Because instead of splitting 95% of your assets and, and expending 5% of them on the divorce system, you'll divide 60% of your assets. Or 65%, and the divorce system will, will, will get that other third. But again, there's not a, there's not a right or wrong way to navigate this process. And, you know, people have to choose what's best for them.

Right, right. But spending money on attorneys as opposed to having it yourself is probably not what's best for them.

Family law attorneys are also— Jill, one thing I'll just say about family law attorneys, and I am one. So I get to say this, and a lot of my colleagues don't like when I say this because I do do these appearances. But, you know, family law attorneys go to the most— they go to the highest— the most Tier 3 law school graduates are in family law. The highest bar pass/fail rates, family law attorneys. So when you in California or any state, you pass the bar after you graduate law school to become a lawyer. The highest fail rates are people that end up in family law. So it's the lowest kind of rung, a quality of human, essentially, right? Like, they're the worst educated, worst kind of positioned. And that's kind of family law, right? Because you deal with so much emotion that, you know, a lot of attorneys in family law would rather do business deals if they could. But this is what, you know, their lot in life becomes. So there's very few people that, like, set forth out and say, I can't wait to be a family law attorney. They kind of just end up here. And so what does that mean for you? Well, it means that if you, if you hire a family law attorney, they'll be very careful. But the real problem is your spouse hires a family law attorney and you have no control over who that person is. And it only takes one money-motivated, uh, me-first attorney to, to dissolve a process into a catastrophe.

Right. And I want to— you're obviously right with your research and your facts. But I want to say that there are some good family law attorneys out there who do this because it's a passion for them and do really care about their clients. And I know them. You're one of them. So I don't want to scare everybody that all of their fair and—

You just can't control both sides. And it only takes one attorney to make it really hard to navigate divorce.

Right. And if there are half of the family attorneys out there who are like what you're describing, you have to be really careful when you hire one, right? You have to, you have to make sure that you don't get one of those family law attorneys.

I mean, it also, when I refer cases, a lot of my referrals will call me back and they'll say, I called, you know, your friend and I hired them. But now, you know, now I'm working with one of their colleagues in their firm, right? So, like, The, you know, family law attorneys are very busy people, and so they've— our practices are growing, not shrinking. And so even if you're getting referred to somebody, like, when I refer someone, I'm referring a specific attorney, not the firm itself. And so you just have to make sure when you're getting referred to someone that, you know, it's that person that's going to be actually doing the work, because, you know, these days their time is so much in demand.

Right, exactly. Now, How do we— okay, how do we avoid using the family attorney for purposes of making the divorce more complex, making it more high conflict? How do we use the family law attorneys in a productive way where you're doing it and thinking about the emotional and mental impact?

Yeah, so you set up your divorce process, and again, there's not a right or wrong way. So if you have to go to court with attorney, that's not— I'm not judging you. Uh, how I would do it— I'm married, but if I were getting a divorce, this is how I would do it. I would make it very clear that I'm hiring them as a consulting attorney only, and I will not retain them if I litigate the case later. So they will not be my attorney if I litigate, so they are not incentivized to blow up the process. So I'm gonna mediate. My spouse and I are gonna hire a mediator together. And then I'm going to have a consulting attorney and then a consulting financial expert on the side. So I'm going to form my own team and then a, a, and a coach as well. So like, I want to form my own support staff, not necessarily neutral support staff, but people that are like looking at the financial disclosures. Advising me on, like, what a good proposal would be, explaining to me, this is why you're asking for this, because this is the why. Because when you negotiate divorce settlements, the other side wants to know why. I just was in a mediation right before this where the spouse said, I'm willing to co-own the home or sell it, but I will not let you own the home. And I said, is this an emotional thing, or why wouldn't you let your spouse own the home if that's the only way they could help? That's just not— I'm not going to let that happen. And so that was a, you know, had more to do with mental than financial. But there was no why behind that. And the other side can't negotiate that way.

They get that.

That's when you create conflict, right? So why am I asking for this? Why is this better? And really understanding, but you're your own quarterback. You're in control. You're putting the pieces into place. And you're getting all that advice and expertise at a fraction of the cost because they're only billing you when you call them for a meeting or you ask them questions. So you have a financial expert, a lawyer, and a mental expert. All that will probably cost less than $10,000. And then you're using a mediator with your spouse, and you're not going into the mediation with, with those people. You're— ideally, you'll just go with the 2, you and your spouse. So you let all those folks know, I'm not using any of you if we're not successful here. So they are not motivated in any way to want to blow that process up for you. So what does that accomplish? It accomplishes basically understanding what the settlement is that you're aiming for and why, and you're much more likely to achieve it. You're getting all the expertise and advice. You're making sure that you understand everything. But you're still using the mediation process to attack the settlement directly. So, like, an average mediation should take, you know, I mean, obviously it differs for people, could, you know, 1, 2, 3 months. I mean, it's not like a 9-month thing usually, you know, it's rare. So you're still getting through the process using mediation, and you're being collaborative. But you're still weaponizing all the information. And that's how I would set up my process.

So I think behind all of the things that you're saying is that, um, you're taking into account what is best physically, emotionally, and mentally for—

For you.

For you.

Yeah.

And so you're not just saying, well, legally, I am entitled to, you know, 50% of the assets and alimony of this amount, or paying, you know, child support of this amount. What you're saying is, I need to know what's right for me. And because, you know, when your attorney tells you— let's say you have 2 parties. Party A's attorney says you're entitled to, you know, $500,000. I'm just throwing out something. And Party B Tells, tells them, well, you're entitled to, you know, $800,000, and that's not 50/50, right? So each of the, of the, the attorneys are telling their parties different things, and we don't know how they're basing that amount. You know, we don't know where that's coming from. But that's not taking into consideration any of the emotional Pieces. And so, you know, how would you take into consideration those emotional pieces if each of the parties are coming to you saying they're entitled to different things?

As a mediator, or—

Well, as, you know, take a holistic look at the divorce.

Here's how I call BS on attorneys. So I also serve as a consulting attorney. And, and I just had that mediation I told you about. So we had 4 meetings, and this was our, our 5th, and this was the one where we're coming together to settle. Then one of the spouses got the advice of a consulting attorney, and I could picture exactly what happened because she, she came armed with just a whole different perspective and attitude and claims of right and wrong. But I could picture what happened when she met with this attorney. The attorney was like, this is what the loss— this is what you owe. This is nothing more than 50/50, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what's right. How you, how you prevent that from happening to you is putting the financial neutral— the financial expert and the lawyer in the same room at the same time. Okay, so when I'm a consulting attorney, if, if I have a colleague in the room, then I'm going to temper down my BS meter. Right? Because, or if I'm in the same room as a financial expert and they're saying stuff that's not true, I have to call that out. So you're getting the real deal, essentially. You're getting legitimate advice, and you're not just being fired up with like, you know, it was a 7-year marriage. I get I get spouse support for life. Well, no, that's never gonna happen. Sorry, not going to happen. Period. But like all that kind of bluster goes out the window if you put them in the same room. You'll get more genuine perspective because they'll They'll have to limit their kind of— and then again, you let them know you're not going to hire them if you're not. So what happened after this meeting I was just talking to you about, I spoke to each of them very briefly individually. We talked about it at the end. And she said— I said, you know, I just— yeah, I don't think I'm going to be able to solve this for you guys if this is what you're asking for. It's just— it's too much. The settlement would be like this. And I have to advise your husband to get his own consulting attorney to make sure that he's informed because what you're asking for is Is not is is over the line, in my opinion. And she said, "Well, that's what the attorney told me. Attorney told me that that she would be seeing me next week because she was about to blow up my mediation." What type of human being would do that to her? We've had a settlement. It was a good settlement. It was fair for everybody. And guess what? It also protected their kids, which was both of their priorities when they came and saw me initially, and that all went out the window. So. But like, why would you blow up the mediation? Well, because, because this person hadn't been disincentivized from doing that, because they could get $800 for a couple hours of consulting, or they could make $60,000 over the course of the next year and a half representing this person in court.

Exactly.

And I'm not saying all attorneys are like that. They're not. Like, like Jill said, there are really good attorneys, but there are attorneys that have bills to pay too.

Right. Right. And they're not incentivized to lower that. So, um, you bring up an excellent, uh, point. I wanna go back to what you said about having 2 people in the room. So I've been in, um, the room with a financial expert who was working with my client, and she wanted the 2 of us together in, in the meeting. And we started talking about things, and I kept asking questions, and the financial expert said, well, I don't have that information yet. Well, I haven't done that yet. Well, I'll get that to you. And like, my client didn't understand which questions to ask her until— I mean, we, we did go over some things, but I thought that her financial expert had already gone through all of this. And so, you know, we were able to get so much accomplished in that one meeting with the 3 of us because I was able to talk directly to the financial person. And the financial person had to answer to someone who's asking her knows what to ask and knows what to follow up with. And so it is a good idea occasionally— I don't think all the time, but once in a while— to meet with either the attorney and the financial person, the attorney and the divorce coach, the financial person and the divorce coach. So those kinds of meetings can be really helpful because you're going to get different perspectives, and they are going to present themselves differently when there's another professional. In the room, you know. So hopefully we wouldn't— hopefully most people wouldn't do that.

Just temper it down. It's really easy to say, like, it's like when you look at a prenup agreement and then, like, you just redline it, like, as you're reading it and highlight, like, all the stuff that you think is bad about it. But, like, if I was sharing that with the other attorney, I probably would, like, you know, I wouldn't just share my, like, thoughts in real time. These are, like, my ideas to talk about the client with. But like, I would certainly like not have the same bravado or, you know, like the same stream-of-consciousness kind of thought if I was interacting with someone that like, you know, knew what they were doing too.

Right. And I, I have another example of everything that you're talking about that just happened. So an attorney referred me a case, and, um, I was actually doing some counseling for this person. And so she came to me one time and was like, I am absolutely overwhelmed, anxious. I can't sleep. I'm, I'm out of control. I, I don't know if I can keep going like this. And I said, well, I think you have to settle because they were going through motions in court and, and it was, it was getting really bad. And I said, I, I don't think you emotionally, it's worth it for you to keep going this way.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, she went back to her attorney that afternoon and said, um, I'd like to settle my case. And her attorney said to her, who's a great attorney, by the way, I really like this attorney. He said to her, you can't settle. We're on, like, we're on the trial track. We are not settling. And he yelled at her. He yelled at her, we cannot settle. She— I give her so much credit. She said to him, Jill told me for my mental health, I need to settle, and I'm settling. And he stopped. And he said, he, like, calmed himself down, and then he apologized to her. And he said, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have said that. If you want to settle, we will settle. And so, and they ended up— this is a crazy story. They ended up agreeing. They settled, and then they got back together.

Oh, wow.

So now they're together, the couple. That's a, that's a side note. But, um, but, you know, it just gives you an example of how you have to take control of the process because the only person who is going to understand the emotional toll is you. And you have to express that to your divorce coach, to your therapist, you know, to your attorney, and tell them what emotionally And mentally is okay for you and is not okay for you.

I mean, as a mediator, I get, I get a lot of criticism from, from my friends that are lawyers. Most of my clients take the agreements that we reach to a consulting attorney to get it reviewed. And like, for example, you know, I'm a creative problem solver. So a lot of my clients, especially since the rates are, yeah, you know, last couple years, there are way more people are co-owning like real estate now than they used to. Um, and I hear all the time like, um, well, I've never— you know, my lawyer said this isn't even possible. I can't stay on the loan for a house, uh, you know, that I don't live in or something like, you know, it's just like, well, no, anything's possible. Um, it's what you guys want. And, um, you guys said that, uh, you wanted your kids You know, for the next 3 or 4 years to live in this, live in this house. And so you guys agreed to co-own it. So this agreement accomplishes that. But like, I often hear back from my clients that have critiques of the creative solutions that we put in place because they're not like standard solutions. You know, they would rather sell everything, divide everything, have no joint debt, and call it a day. Is that what's best for the client? I don't know. But So I'm always in the firing line from, you know, being second-guessed and things like that. And that's why, again, like, I always suggest, like, hey, I don't— I know what I can do. I know this is legal. We can do it this way. But, you know, you guys need to feel confident in the decision. So why don't you surround yourself with your own mini team and make sure that, you know, this is like a well-thought-out plan for you? Because one thing I A mediator, you know, the mediation process is not about— is about going through your credit card statements and making sure you can afford, you know, your lifestyle or your living agreements. You know, the things that we agree on, executing on those and living afterwards is something that a mediator really doesn't do. We need you to make sure, because you're in control. You're— when you're mediating and navigating a divorce process in a more collaborative way. You're taking more ownership over your situation. So you need to make sure that you can afford, you know, to live and afford to make your payments and, and, you know, make sure that you can execute on the things you're agreeing on. And that's where that team comes back into play. The good part of that is that you're not paying a lawyer $585 an hour to look through your credit card statements when you could do it yourself. But again, it's not— not everybody wants to be able to do that. Divorces are very challenging. Challenging mentally and emotional time, and some people just can't, you know, it's very hard for them to have that sort of level of concentration. And so that's why there's different processes for different people.

Well, I mean, and you don't have to pay your attorney to look through your credit card statements. You can pay your financial advisor. That's going to be a lot less and, and a better professional to do that.

Well, but when you litigate a case, they will look through it because they're going to bill hours.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, litigation is a whole different story. But so the other piece of this, which we didn't touch on, is the children. Right. And just what is best for the children. And 100%, if you are emotionally, physically, mentally not doing well, if there's something that isn't good for you, it's not good for your children. And the one thing that I say a lot of people do worry about is having children move out of the marital home.

Mm-hmm.

And so, what I always tell people is that if you can't afford to stay in the marital home, it's not going to be good for your children to stay in a situation where you're, you know, anxious about money. So, it's better to move out and they will adjust. Kids are very resilient. So, like, there's, there's a lot of things you have to think about, and that's why someone like You know, me as a divorce coach can help you think those through, think all of those things through. And someone like you as a mediator who can help people understand that they have to consider the emotional piece of this. If one person is getting too much and one too little, that's not going to be good for the children, for them, for anybody.

Yeah, I totally agree. The home is always like, you know, that kind of the start and the finish of the process. But, yeah, I'm always wary when one person's giving it all up for the home. Makes me nervous. You know, the home is not something you can get the money out of that easily. But another example of kind of what a holistic approach is, is like when you're— you know, for example, when someone is being bought out of a home. So one person, let's say my wife and I are getting divorced. Let's say she wants that. She's going to own the home. So I give her ownership of the home in this settlement agreement, but I agree for, you know, for the next 5 years, I don't want my equity out of it because I know she can't refi. And there's not a pot of money where we don't have $800,000 laying around to give me. So, you know, I'm basically delaying my equity, but I'm also simultaneously saying, you keep the house. So, you know, historically homes go up. Maybe they won't this time, but Over the next 5 years, you're— it's going to be worth more than it is now. And I'm not asking for any of that. This is a common sort of situation. So when someone takes this agreement to the lawyer and the lawyer goes, but all this other stuff over here, you didn't get that. You didn't get, you know, he's taking the $4,000 couch and the $6,000, you know, golden vase. And I— and then you come back and you say, all this, this is all supposed to be mine too. We're supposed to split all this. And I go, well, what about my $800,000 that I'm not gonna see for 5 years?

Right?

So it's like a holistic, like, what's best holistically? And that's where just someone like Jill really comes into play to help you kind of maintain that, like, even-headedness and considering everything when you're negotiating.

Right? I mean, everything that you give up, you know, you should be able to get something that is good for you. It doesn't have to be equal in value, but it has to be something that, that is fair, you know, to you. Yeah. I want to open it up to questions. If you could put into the chat, people who are here, any questions related to, you know, what is a holistic approach or what your specific circumstances are. We will answer them. And because I think having people's, you know, having examples of this is really a great way to kind of show what a holistic approach to this, to divorce is, because—

Hopefully Erica will— you can do this with Erica one day because she really is tremendous.

Oh, I know she's, she's got a good— she does like a strategy session, I think, with people as a consulting attorney. And it sounds like a really good option. But yeah, not a lot of attorneys do that, like a one-time strategy session to kind of look over your whole divorce. And part of it— so put into the chat, everybody who's here, any questions related to this. And what you have to think about when you're thinking about doing a whole— think about it holistically is what is most important to you.

Right.

Is it, you know, the house? Is it having a certain schedule with the kids? Is— because you can trade off. I did that in my divorce. Like, my— I got less financially in order to get the schedule I wanted with my children, which to me was worth it. You know, it's not worth it to some other people, you know. Um, but you have to decide what is most important to you, um, and what's most important to your children and your family as a whole. So, um, we're not— are we getting anybody putting— I don't think we are, but— oh, here we go. Um, each party provides their own team, CDFA coach and consulting lawyer, but the mediator is neutral. Okay. I'm sorry.

Yes, you hire— you both spouses hire the same mediator together.

So it depends. I know I have a client, somebody on here who is doing a collaborative, a team, which I guess they're sharing the financial professional, which you can do, but not if you're not doing a collaborative team. You would have a lot of clients where I bring in a collaborative neutral.

So I'm the mediator, and I say, hey, let's get this asset, like, let's get this valued, or let's get someone's opinion on this issue. And they do it as a neutral. So they're, they're not representing, they're not like looking after one person or the other. I was just saying that how I would set up my approaching mediation if it were me. I'm not against having a neutral financial person that, like, works for both of us, but I want to know You know, what, what would be a good settlement for me and why? And, and, and even more so, whether it's like a coach or, or the financial neutral, having someone in the room with the attorney as they're kind of giving me their, their settlement, you know, kind of process and what they think I should— what that looks like for me. That, that, that's really important to remember, to temper down kind of the bluster, to have that other person there. to call them out, because, I mean, you don't know, you know, if they're— if they're— they might be making like a legally valid argument for something, but they're not— maybe that's pushing you in a direction that's not as good for you as it could be. So that's why having— so oftentimes that's either a coach or it's the financial person if your situation is more of a financially complex But I often have in my mediations a financial neutral. It just depends on, you know, if you want someone like from a financial perspective to say, hey, you should be asking for the Roth IRA, not the traditional IRA, because the Roth has better, you know, it's tax-free growth. Like a financial neutral won't give you that because, right, because they're neutral. They work for both sides.

Yeah. Right, exactly. I think it's— this gets a little complicated because it really depends on the situation, right? If you have a very amicable divorce, and I've seen it, where each side is being fair financially, you can use a financial neutral that works with both sides. But if you don't have that situation, which is more often the case, you probably want your own financial person to kind of double-check and make sure that they're on your side and they're protecting you, right?

I mean, and also just a financial person can like evaluate your financial— I mean, we're not— I know someone that like, if it's not a super complicated case, like in 90 minutes she'll type up, you know, everything. And I mean, it's not like a $10,000 investment, you know, it's— it can be pretty affordable. And if you do have a— if you don't have like super complex financials, And you're amicable. I'm a financial neutral. I mean, I'm a financial expert too. So a lot of my clients, we just, we keep that in-house and just do it together. But when there's a question or a valuation issue, you know, I want that other person to come in. So that's, that's when we bring them in.

Yeah. I, yeah, that's another question. Is it a complicated financial situation? Is there a business involved? Are they hiding money? You know, so there's a lot of questions there.

Yeah, if there's like— there's some— there's things called like— is there certain financial instruments like restricted stock units, which are like stock awards essentially that you get when you work for a public company? Like, there's a whole report that has to be produced for the valuation of those, and they kind of— they influence child and spousal support as well. And so, as the— I don't want someone to ask me a question about a report that I wrote when I'm the mediator. Because I, I don't want them to think like, does Scott not know what he's doing? So I bring someone else in, and then they get to ask, they get to question that person, and they produce that report, and then I'm able to just attach that report. So I'm not like justifying it, the math or anything.

Right, right. And I think people, when they hear about all these financial, the, all these professionals, they think that's going to be so much more than just working with an attorney, right?

A lot less. Yeah. Remember, they don't teach math in law school. So Your attorney is going to have a financial expert of their own.

Right. Right, exactly. I mean, people think that their attorney is going to know what to tell them financially, and they really don't. They only know the law. It's rare that, like, for you, you're a lawyer and you have a financial background. That's rare.

Yeah, I think it is rare. Yeah. Finances and lawyers. Lawyers are more like, you know, English and history, you know, not so much on the math side.

Right, exactly. Any other questions that people have? Because that was a really good question. You know, what, what kind of a team do you form? And I just want to bring up the whole collaborative thing. So if you have a collaborative team where there's a very specific way that they work, That is not always the best thing for everybody, because I've seen time and time again that they do things in a certain way. Like, they bring the attorneys into the mediation, you know, and that's the way they do it. And that's not necessarily what you need. They, you know, will make you meet with, you know, a family therapist. And you may need that. You may not need that. You know what I mean? So, like, they have A certain way of doing it. The only good thing about collaborative is that they agree that they're not going to go— they're not going to represent you if you go to court. So they have that.

With collaborative, the key to a successful collaborative divorce or any time— so I'm not— the reason I stopped litigating is I want to deal with less attorneys, not more. I mean, like, I like doing this work and I like helping people, but I don't want to really deal with the— as much as the attorneys. I was literally being driven insane. So, um, that's why I do this work now. But for the last Decade. But, um, when attorneys come into my mediations, which I'm not like looking to do in mediation one, I will allow it if we're gonna fail. Like, I don't want to like, hey, if these guys are gonna go to court, like, then let's bring your attorneys in. But I don't want the attorneys in 2 separate rooms, and attorneys never will stay in the same room. You want to know why? They want to bull S and bluster behind closed doors, and then have the mediator run to the other room and try to temper what they said to the other side who's gonna bluster. You gotta make the two attorneys hear it directly, and they'll call each other out on their BS, and they'll say, "Well, you know, John, that's not true. It's not how it works in reality." So again, that's the tempering, the the whole way I would set up my divorce. It's the same thing as how I now it's hard for me to make attorneys stay in the. Same room. A lot of— oftentimes we'll just say, yeah, I absolutely refuse. But I know why they have to hear each other. That's the only way they're going to get— you know, that's how you set up a settlement, because you get the real deal, you know, the real deal thoughts there.

Will you work with people without their attorneys in separate rooms?

Yeah, I mean, I— we, we always start together, but again, I reserve the right, you know, to suggest going into separate rooms. I'd say 80-85% of the time. my clients and I are in the same virtual or in-person room, because I don't want them to have questions about my impartiality. And once a mediator starts going between rooms, they naturally tend to kind of— the other side, like each side feels like they're in a way buddying up just because it's a little bit more freewheeling because there's not the other person there. So there's— But The way that a mediation is often defeated is when one person does think that the mediator's on the other's team. And so, like, what will often happen in a mediation when you start going back and forth is— or it can happen— is like one side says, well, Scott said this when we were in separate rooms. And I didn't say that, but they took it in a way, and it makes it look like, you know, something was said that was inappropriate. And, you know, that makes you feel like, is Scott on my spouse's team or not? And that's, that's the end of the mediation, pretty much beginning of the end.

We have a good question here. Can a mediator be useful when one side refuses to hire an attorney, or is this the scenario better for courts?

Hmm. And what do you think that that means, Jill? I'm sorry.

So I think if one person is not using an attorney, you should always avoid court, you know, regardless of if somebody's using an attorney. So I think mediation is always going to be the better option if both parties are willing to do it, at least try the mediation.

But half my clients don't have attorneys, or a little bit over half, I would say. A lot of times I don't know if they do or don't. I only can tell, like today's mediation, I could tell. That, you know, the whole— everything about my client changed, and the language changed. Everything was so much more form— you know, formal. So I could just tell right away. But a lot of times I never know, and I don't want to know. I mean, it's not that I don't want to know, but it just doesn't come up. But, you know, a lot of people can navigate mediation just hiring— or divorce, just hiring the same mediator together and kind of doing it that way. But if I was— again, the question I think was originally like, how would I set up my divorce just to make sure I feel like protected and informed and knowledgeable so that when I'm making proposals or making agreements, I truly feel like I'm in the know and I understand what's happening. You know, I might spend $2,500 or whatever on the team before the mediation just to feel that comfort. And, and to, you know, I think it's helpful.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, we only have a couple minutes left, but can you give us examples from when you were litigating divorces on things that were not taking into consideration the emotional and mental impact?

Yeah. Um, I mean, I You know, when you're in litigation, you know, I don't know if anyone has ever— like, if anyone, you know, owns a business that's been sued by an employee for something, or just any time that you're in litigation. But I mean, it is very formal. Everything is formal and everything is scary, and you don't understand what's happening because the process is set up for you to not be in touch with your attorney. They have 35 versions of you that they're helping or whatever they're doing. They have a lot of cases. They have very little time. They're being dragged into court for emergency hearings, you know, once or twice a week at 8 AM. You can't really control your schedule as an attorney that's litigating family law disputes. It's very hard to. So, you know, you're going to be calling your attorney and you're not going to be getting a hold of them. And it's not that they're a bad person or that they're being unprofessional, it's just the reality. So you'll feel like lost, you'll feel like you're stuck. And I can't tell you how many times, probably 25, 35 cases when I was litigating, where like I just— if I could just get a hold of the attorney and not get You know, a 700-word email back from my voicemail. I could have settled, you know, we could have figured it out. But it's— family law is not set up for that. So like, the lawyer can't do anything about it sometimes. Each hearing is 5 months away from the next, and then half the hearings get pushed off the day before. So you're just kind of like feeling stuck, feeling anxious. And when you go pick up your kids from school at 3 o'clock, that doesn't go away. And guess what? When you're seeing your kids, you know, on July 4th, when you've always taken them to the mountains and now you don't have July 4th this year, like, now you're sad and stuck and there's nothing you can do about it. And guess what, Jill?

You—

if you own a business, you can't sell the business. You can't take on, you know, debt that's new. You can't operate your business in a different way than you were. You can't spend new money. You can't take— you know, everything is controlled financially in a way where you're feeling stuck. And, you know, if I'm going through divorce, my goal is to feel empowered and living my best life and dating or, you know, all these things are going to be pushed, you know, off into the future. So, like, just it's very emotionally uh, estranged when you're going and stuck in a divorce process. And, uh, it's that— the 2 reasons I don't do that work. One is, uh, I don't want to deal with as many attorneys in my life. And 2 is I, I felt that for my clients, and I didn't like— like, I never told people, like, at my kids' school what I did. Not because I was ashamed of it. It's just I didn't advertise.

I would—

yeah, if you, if you need to go to court, to sue your spouse, let me know. Like, I've just— but now, like, I feel empowered for what I do because I do feel like I help solve problems. And, and the court system for family law is just not set up to solve problems very easily.

Thank you. Thank you, Scott. That's really helpful for people to hear because you want to avoid court at all costs. And, um, you were there, you did it for years, and, and it's great to hear You know, from your perspective, and I really appreciate that.

And again, I'm not judging. I know that there's 2 sides. There's— it's none of it's a perfect solution, and I have no judgment if you're in that situation. I don't mean to judge you or to say that you're doing the wrong thing because I understand that, that life happens. Yeah.

And sometimes you don't have a choice, but it should be a last resort. For sure.

I believe so.

Yeah. Well, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate your time. And thank you, everybody, for coming. Um, we will have all of your information in the notes. And, um, Scott Levin, thank you.

Thank you so much.