How Does Mediation Help Families Facing Divorce - A Discussion With Scott Levin & Carrie Guarrero

That said, I do want to read something from that, from that man from today. But of course, I'm not going to be able to find it with relative ease. You know, we're just going to move on. Here's the reality. There's a little bit of mindset associated with these shows. That's why it's called Mindset and Mortgages. And one of the things in my message this morning to all was Hey, you know what, you are unique. And what you do is unique to you. It matters. And my husband, bless him, sent me a message today. He sends me a little daily motivational message and he sent it today and it almost perfectly mirrored what I posted in that this morning. We all get wrapped up in comparing ourselves to other people and other things. And the reality is, You are made uniquely and that makes you special. And I have the great, great pleasure of introducing Scott tonight, Mr. Peacekeeper, who is such a unique combination, a rare combination of things. And an attorney, right, who is also a CDFA, a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. who has chosen to make a career in— is his main line of his career in mediation. And so that makes you a rare breed, I think you said, Scott, right? Welcome.

Thank you, Carrie, for having me. And I've been called special my entire life, not for the right reasons. So I appreciate you having me.

Oh, well, we're grateful to have you on. And I've got a number of questions that have come in from others, as well as just myself here today. And we're going to talk about kind of all things family law. But as we get started and we're talking about mediation in particular, talk to us about, Scott, how you decided mediation versus litigation and what that journey looked like and maybe what the difference is for those who are listening That, that have no idea?

Sure. Well, thanks again for having me. So I was a litigator for a number of years. That's a person that one party to a litigation would hire, and we would go to court versus the other party. And in family law, the first thing that I did with my clients— and I haven't been to court in family law since Before 2013. So it's a long time ago. But the first thing that really all family law attorneys do is that they ask their clients— when they're hired for litigation— is they ask their clients for basically a position statement. And that is all the gunk that happened between the 2 married people. And so it's all the bad stuff. and all the, just the icky stuff. And the reason is, is that as a litigator, you have to position your client against the other side in order to portray your client as the innocent spouse.

Sure.

And so, you know, the average divorce is taking a little over 2 years now. And basically it's a 2-year process of looking the wrong direction. So, you're looking behind you where you've been and you're stuck in that mindset for 2 years or so, and you spend a whole lot of money just because the system eats the money up. And it's just a really unfun, bad, yucky place to be for that long of a period of time. So, I like to— for when I was representing clients, I kind of came to a slow realization that I hadn't won any cases for my clients when I was in litigation. Now, sure, I won lots of cases, but none of them were as well off as they should have been. And so one day after a particularly bad experience, I just decided that I wasn't going to be a party any longer to something that, yeah, it made my family and I money.

Mm-hmm.

There should be something more to life than just that. And I was unhappy and I really blamed it on what I did for a living because I have a great family and a lot of support and, and I've always been a happy person. But what I was doing for a living was just— was grinding me in the wrong direction. So in 2013, I stopped. I opened up a mediation practice. And essentially what mediation does is that I work with both people in a divorce scenario. So we basically form a team and it's, and it's team us. And on the other side are the problems of divorce. So when someone engages me, they sign a form that says we're not going to talk or spend a lot of time fighting with each other and bringing up all that stuff that got us here. We know why we're here. And if you really are ready to move forward with the divorce process, then, then we're going to work together to find creative solutions. And that's what I love to do. That's my strength. And it's always been— I've owned several businesses. And so I really love delving into, you know, just being creative and problem-focused. And how do we get these 2 people from point A to point B. Without, you know, causing added emotional damage to them, their kids, and stripping them of all their money.

Right. Well, speaking of that, I mean, I guess we've spent a fair amount of time together, right? So I already know, but I've heard stories about— and you kind of alluded to it in your earlier statements around Hey, you know, people both lawyer up on both sides and we're going to litigation and all of a sudden money is depleted. There's, there's all of a sudden there's no savings left. We've invested all kinds of money in doing this and gotten nowhere. On average, do you know, like, how much of a cost savings are we talking about between Heading into mediation versus litigation, what does that look like?

Yeah, I mean, I think that our fee is somewhere between 5% and 10% of the cost of a litigated divorce. So it's pretty significant. And one thing I like to— that I think is difficult to measure, though, is the— it's definitely the most economic path. I mean, if you're looking For a less expensive path to separation, then mediation is a great option. But what you can't measure is the emotional pain savings that we can deliver because you're not stuck for 2 years. Our average case lasts less than 6 weeks. So do you want to be in the divorce for 2 years, or do you want to move forward in 6 weeks? And that time savings and that, and that like being stuck for that extended length of period of time, that not having to go through that is just a difficult thing to measure. But I mean, it's, it's an important factor in someone's decision.

Well, sure, it's a huge emotional savings. Now, you and I were talking about that a couple of weeks ago in terms of just, you know, the outcomes and that often as a mediator, you're not necessarily involved in the Final outcome, right? So what, what are the most common issues that do get resolved in mediation and how does that work?

Yeah, I mean, there's, well, there's really 3 main areas that in family law mediation I work in. I love working in the premarital space. So you might have heard of a prenup or a prenuptial agreement. So that's an agreement that people usually make during their engagement period. But the traditional way that that's made is that the, you know, the higher earner, the person that wants— that has, you know, stuff to protect, they meet with a lawyer and they come up with this really one-sided, you know, super aggressive agreement and they kind of hand it to the other person.

Sure.

And that's kind of a bummer for the other person because they don't feel like they've been respected or had a chance to be heard or validated.

Right.

And the agreement, when they take it to a lawyer, typically is extremely one-sided. I mean, the boilerplate, you know, text of these prenuptial agreements is super broad and unfair. And so the way that I work in the prenuptial space, in the premarriage, like before marriage, is the same way that I worked kind of in the divorce, is that Both parties that are engaged or about to be married come in and see me, or we do it over Zoom these days.

And we got to do everything these days.

Of course, it's the Zoom age. And basically, we figure out what it is that the one person wants to protect, and we, and we narrowly tailor an agreement that accomplishes what they're interested in but doesn't unnecessarily harm the other person by Giving rights that the, that the, that the higher earning spouse wouldn't be entitled to, you know, had they been without that agreement. So I really love doing the premarital space because basically what I hear from my clients is that they become closer during the process because it's the first time that they have ever really had real talk about their finances. their goals, their fears, and it brings the— it's tough, you know, it's real talk. I didn't have that talk with my wife before we got married. But the parties that come in and see me, they feel closer because they've been heard and validated. They feel like both each other have really gone out of their way to make them, you know, feel comfortable and open in their discussions. So, It's a really rewarding conversation and come up with fair agreements again. So I love working with parties before they're married.

Married, everybody would do something like that. Not necessarily a prenuptial agreement, but I can't tell you how many times as a mortgage lender you're sitting across the table from, or of course on Zoom today, and talking about Credit and debts and income and the look of surprise on one or the other party's faces associated with financial matters. You know, it's just one of those things that finances are so intimate. And of course you're getting married, but, you know, to be able to have that open kind of financial counseling session, if you will. I mean, I know you're not— you're a mediator, not a counselor, but You know, to go through all of that and lay it all out on the table and have that conversation with a third party who's helping you navigate the way has got to be truly helpful and would be for a variety of the people that I've been on the opposite side of the table from, for sure.

I mean, I'm not sure who they would go to if they, if they weren't doing it with like for a prenup, but, or a premarital agreement, but I mean, whoever that person is, or if it's a CPA or whatever, that would be a good exercise for people.

Well, I think it's fantastic. So you said 3. So that was number 1. What's number 2?

That's the good part, heading into the marriage. And then unfortunately, it's dealing with people that are going out of the marriage. And in the way that I work, again, like I get calls all day from people that want to engage a mediator. But they also want to start telling me all about their case and they want to ask me all sorts of questions about, you know, how can I be advantaged over the other person. And the first thing that I do when someone calls me is I explain to them that, you know, my goal is to help them leave the marriage just as they came into it, which was— which is together.

Right.

And so an ethical mediator is a neutral mediator, someone that kind of represents the futures of both parties. And in a way, if they have young children, the children themselves, because we're trying to protect their assets and set up a good parenting plan and, and help them learn to communicate during the divorce process in a way that helps them become good co-parents. So a big part of our practice is the divorce mediation space. And then the final is post-divorce. So there's all sorts You know, about 50% of cases that are litigated in divorce, the parties end up back in court after the divorce at some point. So there's— it doesn't feel great for either party to be taken, like, you know, quote unquote, taken back to court, you know, post-divorce. It brings up a lot of hurt feelings and it's— court's not a fun place to be. It's scary. It's expensive. So we do a ton of post-divorce mediation, helping people Come up with creative solutions to whatever issues they're having, whether it's co-parenting or, you know, they need to adjust or have a desire to adjust spousal support or child support. You might have heard like a lot of famous Hollywood actors and actresses right now are trying to reduce their support obligations because they aren't working as much. So Although assets and debts are— the division of those assets and debts are final when you sign the divorce agreement, support like spousal support or child support, those are things that continue to be held open for the court and can be adjusted over time.

Sure.

And so those are other things that we help people resolve.

So Scott, how many of your— I mean, I don't even know if you know the answer to this question because We didn't talk about it, but I'm just curious, how many of those types of mediation conversations stay out of court altogether because you're in that space and you're able to come to some sort of agreement without it even going to court? Or do they all still go to court in the end? What I mean, what does that look like?

Yeah, I mean, so if we're successful, then Then we will, if there's, if there's a need to file something with the court, then my— then we'll file with the court letting the court know, hey, we've adjusted this per private agreement and they've signed, the 2 parties have signed, and we just want you to know, Judge, because in case it needs to be enforceable later, you know, we're letting you know. And the judge goes, whatever this is, great. So they sign whatever it is.

That's what they do. Yeah, whatever.

They don't— they want people to come out, come to private agreement. Like, they want to encourage that, so they give a great leeway to make those sort of private agreements enforceable.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, if 2 parties are coming to me in the post-divorce scenario and they're agreeing to go into mediation, they both know that they didn't like the court experience the first time. They were— if they were there, and they would rather figure it out themselves with the help of a professional. So a really, really high percentage of those discussions end up in a successful mediated agreement.

So that's awesome. I love to hear that there's a huge percentage of those that— and I know mediation has skyrocketed in terms of an option, right? Like, I can, I can think about back, unfortunately, more than 20 years ago when I was in the position where I was getting divorced, and that wasn't even— that wasn't even something people mentioned. It wasn't even an option, right? It was just what you did was you went and you got an attorney. And if you didn't get an attorney, you could pretty well guarantee that you were going to be in rough shape on the other side of that. So I know there's still a space, unfortunately, where people do need to hire attorneys and there does need to be litigation. In your personal opinion, when would those times be, or how do you know when you actually need to be in a situation where there's litigation versus mediation?

Yeah. So for speaking of divorce, I think it's super important that anybody start mediation. Now that doesn't always mean that we are going to come up with a, with a whole agreement on every aspect of the separation.

Right.

But it's really important, especially when you're dealing with a person or one or both parties that might have like kind of some narcissism to them. The reason that I suggest everyone start in mediation is because we will come To a lot of agreements. There will absolutely be a lot of things that you guys will agree on.

Yeah.

Now, if we can't agree on everything, the benefit of the mediation is that you can take what we've agreed on and set it aside, then hire attorneys to go to court on what's left. But you're limiting the scope of that representation to just what's left. So your fees will be drastically reduced. The time that you're going to be in court is less, and it's very likely because you have sat across from each other in the virtual Zoom world, at least.

Right.

You, you have agreed on stuff with the help of a third party, so it's going to be very likely that you're going to be more willing to agree even during litigation than you would if you just started out in litigation and said, let's do this, maybe. Let's run up some fees and go to war. So it's just important because, I mean, right off the bat, you could agree on 65% of what there is to your divorce, and then let's leave the other 35% to the litigators. But it's still going to save you a lot of time and a lot of money doing it that way. Yeah.

No, I can respect and appreciate that entirely. And I imagine that those things that people don't agree on runs the gamut, like that remaining 35% or whatever the case might be. It could be a variety of different things, of course.

Yeah, I mean, it could be like really important things like a parenting plan for the kids, and it could be like for less important things— not less important per se, but, you know, like, you know, dog parenting plan, right? You know, like things that are—

Dogs are pretty important to me, Scott. I'm just gonna say.

Well, I have 3 of them. I locked them all in my bedroom so that they couldn't be heard. Right now because they'd be screaming.

I get it. I know.

Yeah, I mean, it could be like, I mean, you never know in a divorce what is emotionally triggering or, you know, what issue may have true economic value that parties can't come to an agreement on. It really does run the gamut.

Run the gamut. Sure. Are there any questions, Scott, that I haven't asked you that you feel like, hey, it's really important that I think people understand this about the mediation process or what it is that you do on a daily basis?

Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things. So what I like to— everyone really focuses on their assets and debts, of course. You know, I mean, money is like, you know, is a huge issue. So, but that's what mediators are really, you know, and certified divorce financial analysts. I mean, that's what we're best at helping people with. What I like to say to people if they're preparing for a divorce, I love when clients can both go to a parenting expert and have that parenting expert help cultivate a parenting plan for them or with them. So there are parenting experts out there in Southern California, all over the country, that, that work on Zoom and work with people all over the country that basically— The parenting plans, the way that you can share your children. There's so many different ways that you can word that. And if you can go see a parenting expert, you know, during your mediation or before your mediation and have that person really help, help create a plan that's specific to your family and your needs, I really think that that is something that, that can be really beneficial because lawyers and mediators You know, we aren't psychologists and we know all the different parenting plans, but— and we can certainly write them down. But, you know, whether we're trained to really understand the best parenting option for you and your family, that's different. And so I really love when my clients work with the parenting expert to really focus on the children because it also shows a degree of compassion and care for each other that you can still Talk through this issue because, you know, lawyers aren't going to be there in 5 years when you have a disagreement about your parenting plan or your, you know, your support issues. You will need to communicate with this other person, especially if you have minor children, for probably a very long time, if not forever.

Forever so far in my experience, even with adult children.

So, and then the other thing I just want to mention is, you know, My clients that, that negotiate most effectively, because unfortunately divorce really is a business negotiation at some extent, to some extent. That's really what it is. It's not a past-focused exercise. It's future-focused. So for you to be future-focused and in a, in as good of a headspace as you can be, because it's a really, can be a trying emotional experience. You need to do things for yourself. Now, whatever that is, if it's exercise, if it's seeing a psychologist, if it's working with a divorce coach, if it's talking with your brothers and sisters, whatever it is that makes you feel better about yourself, you need to do a whole lot of that during this process. I really feel like that's an important, you know, part of the game. And, you know, the better you feel about yourself, the better co-parent you're going to be, the better parent you're going to be, you know, and better person that you're going to be because you're really going to help yourself be future-focused. And, you know, also, like, if you haven't been working, like, full-time but now you might have to start, you know, start getting your, you know, ducks in a row for your profession, you know, see a professional. consultant, like what, what do you want to do with your career, you know, start doing things that make you feel like you're inching forward and all of those things will make you feel better during the process.

Well, and that's a, that's a great mindset message overall, regardless of where you are in life, right? We've got to spend some time focusing inward so that we take care of ourselves, we're better externally. in the world, but particularly while you're going through divorce or separation or, you know, any kind of tremendously stressful thing in life. The situation we're in right now, right, with COVID and all of that. All good to focus on self-care and whatever that can look like in your life.

Yeah.

Scott, in terms of communicating with you, I know we talked about and you already mentioned, obviously you're in San Diego, but you You, from a mediation perspective, you can help people nationwide, right? From a mediation perspective, what is the best way to get ahold of you?

Well, yeah, my email, I guess, is scottlevinmediation@gmail.com. So it's S-C-O-T-T-L-E-V-I-N, the word mediation, at gmail.com. And our phone number, 858-254- 5-1-3-2-1. And I just asked everyone to think about what's the price of peace. You know, we're going through trying times. I would love people to try to stick it out because we're all struggling, especially this fall with schools being closed, at least where I live. It's not—

Right.

But You know, if you can't stick it out though and you really want to try to move on, then start in mediation. Do yourself a favor. If it's not with me, I'm not everyone's person, and that's totally fine. But there are some incredible professionals throughout the country that, that can help you.

Well, I count you as one. And one of the best things that I heard from you in our most recent one-on-one conversation was But a lot of times people don't arrive at the place. A lot of times through mediation, people figure out how to work things out and stick it out longer. And I love that.