Mediation attorney Scott Levin and divorce coach Lara Brunstrom discuss whether mediation works with high-conflict spouses. Lara says true narcissism is rare; most clients show a few traits that coaching can manage. A team approach with a mediator, coach, attorney, and financial expert costs less than litigation and protects children from prolonged conflict.
Chapters
Hey, everybody, this is Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper. I'm a mediation attorney in California. And one topic— I'm here with Lara Brunstrom. Hi, Lara.
Hello.
One issue that comes up all the time when I am talking with people about mediation and whether it, you know, it can be appropriate for their situation, etc. Is, can you mediate, you know, a divorce settlement if you have— if your spouse is narcissistic or has narcissism, or, you know, another, you know, high-conflict personality trait? So you help people approach divorce through a coaching service that you offer where you keep them even-keeled, you keep them focused, you keep them on point so that they can be successful in mediation. But I guess my question is, what do you think about narcissism and voluntary settlement through mediation?
It's absolutely doable. So, I mean, you can do anything, right? I also believe wholeheartedly that narcissism is a very broad, overused term. I don't know how many times you would say you saw a true bona fide textbook Um, 100% shows all the signs, diagnosable narcissist. I would say more what we deal with on a daily basis is somebody who has highlights of narcissism. They have— maybe if there's 20 traits, they have like 3.
Mm-hmm.
However, your spouse has been dealing with those 3 and they get exploded, right? And they get very frustrated by them. So It's very doable to get to reach an amicable settlement. It takes skill set that you don't probably have right now.
Do you think that hiring attorneys to litigate a divorce is less helpful or more helpful when you're dealing with someone that you think has those high conflict traits?
Oh my gosh. So I'm going to answer that a little bit different because I am a flag-waving believer in settlements and mediation. I truly, wholeheartedly believe that it is so hard if you start an escalation up here to de-escalate a divorce, that if you can hit the ground running with a mediator such as yourself, who's super skilled in their craft and really reaches settlements so often. I don't even know, I don't think we've ever shared a case that you haven't brought to settlement. Like, you're super successful teamed up with somebody who's helping you, a good mediator, and somebody who's helping you communicate in situations that you just don't have the skill set for. That's, I think, like Perfect. You can go lawyer up. I— what I tend to see with high conflict is the lawyers aren't referring out to coaches, they're not utilizing other sources, and it's just escalating, and that becomes a problem. So yes, you can do it. And is it going to be more effective to both of you have a lawyer? My guess is you'll both have a lawyer. You'll spend a year getting divorced, and then you'll end up in mediation.
Yeah, I agree. I think the de-escalation is harder once you start in a court, you know, a litigation stance. Even filing that the way that that first court filing is prepared can be triggering because, you know, that's, you know, what your attorney is You know, trained to do is to position yourself against the other person. And even that initiation can be drafted in a way that really puts the other person on the defensive right from the beginning. And, you know, people that are put on the defensive that already have, you know, the history to show that they can be very reactive and explosive in that reaction. You know, you want to keep things as calm at the outset as possible, and then escalate only, you know, if it's required. But why not try a process that gets you— if it's successful, will get you out of the relationship, you know, in a matter of months rather than years? If you're really dealing with someone that's, you know, emotionally and mentally, you know, beating you down, essentially, it's It's— I would want to get away from that person as quickly and fairly as possible, but, you know, not to get, you know, hunkered down in a 2.5-year battle.
Absolutely. And I do— you raise a really good point because I see this all the time where a brief is written or whatever the papers are called. I'm not a lawyer. Whatever the papers that go back and forth are called, there's always an attorney on one side who has to jab. You know, well, he's super educated, but he just doesn't really do anything with his education. So he has a tendency to not— like, why? Why? Like, that has nothing to do with how this is going to go. Jabbing at character in those papers sends things sideways really fast, where if you're both working with you You're not writing something to to sword fight. You're writing something to come to resolution. So you're not picking a fight. You're actually kind of paving a smoother road for them to get to where they want to go. Ultimately, if you're filing for divorce, your goal is presumably to get divorced, not to spend two years fighting or badgering the other person, which doesn't help the kids. That's a whole other topic. But that's not going to serve your children to be in this battle for two years. Which is why I think a lot of people who start with lawyer up, they're escalated, slide right back down to mediation.
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. So to approach a case, in my opinion, you should navigate a process through mediation, but you can still get all the consultants and people on a team that will help set you up so you can You know, have a coach like Lara. You can hire a consulting attorney. You can have a financial expert. But these folks are, you know, working on an hourly basis and advising you. But the end goal is to get through the process in the most direct way.
Absolutely.
You'll have all those benefits of that education and advice and counsel and all that great support. But as opposed to relying on one person who is very used to being the only person involved in a case as that person's, you know, attorney, uh, counselor, uh, you know, therapist in a way, you know, everything. Attorneys in the, in the family law realm are, are really, uh, used to be setting up to be the sole provider of service. And so that's one option, or you can go this other way where you have a whole team of people designed to help you get through it, and that's really the smart approach.
It's smart, and I think it's less expensive. Like, when you say a whole team, my brain goes, oh my gosh, I'm thinking, think people are gonna think, oh my gosh, I have to hire all these people.
So much less expensive.
It's not the case. It's actually addressing the client as a whole person, their personalities, the conflicts they're facing, the legal aspect, their emotions, their children. All of that's gonna be tied, big fat bow tied around all of that. And that's the solution we're looking for. And we're looking for a client to come through the other side of this ready for their future, not torn apart and embattled and like scars all over the place, internal, external, visible, not visible. Like, that's not the goal. The goal is to get out to the other side, start your new life, have your feet firmly planted on the ground and your kids healthy and happy.
Yeah, and I loved what you said. When someone files for divorce, presumably the goal is to get divorced, not to just get stuck in the divorce process. And everything you said can't happen until you get through it and get yourself unstuck. The way to get unstuck, in our opinions, is to attack the issues and figure out solutions through a mediated settlement. But to learn more, how can people contact you? Tell us. I'll put all the information in the description, of course.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, Sterling Fire Coaching is what I call my coaching company. Uh, my name is Laura. You can find it in the notes here. I have a lot of people reach out that just want some guidance on how to go through this process, how they get through it sane, how they work with you, how they meet with you and have conversations with their spouse on the outside of the meetings they have with you. So It's really beneficial. Um, I super love sharing clients with you because we get such great results. So it's, it's lots of fun to, to launch people into their next world. So yeah, that's, that's how you find me. Put it in the notes. Yeah.
And I love seeing people that email me a couple years later or call for something just to check in and tell me how well they're doing. It's great to see that they've had that opportunity to thrive. Which came from the settlement being done, you know, in this way.
Absolutely.
All right, y'all, we'll see you soon, and thanks for watching or listening.
