In this YouTube interview, host Scott Levin, the Chief Peacekeeper, talks with Massachusetts attorney and mediator David Kellum about his concept of the "price of peace" in divorce cases. Kellum explains how he helped a client in a five‑year, high‑conflict divorce assign a dollar value to the emotional and practical benefits of settling, ultimately reaching a settlement that was less than the client’s stated price. He describes how he now routinely uses this tactic to break impasses, emphasizing the financial, productivity, and emotional gains of ending a divorce battle. The conversation also touches on VESTA, a nonprofit that provides free education and counseling on divorce, and Kellum’s humorous "Divorce Dictionary" blog, which warns against taking divorce advice at cocktail parties and encourages seeking counsel from qualified professionals. The interview highlights practical mediation strategies, the importance of quantifying peace, and resources for divorcing individuals.
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Hi everybody, this is Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper. Today I'm here with my good friend, fellow attorney and mediator, David Kellum. How are you, David?
I'm doing great, Scott. Good to see you as always.
Thank you. And so David and I— David practices in the state of Massachusetts, I'm out in California, and we're connected through a really great organization called VESTA. That David was actually kind of— were you one of the first members of VESTA, David?
Yes, I was. There were 3 founders of VESTA, then there was a 4th person, Susan Trotter, and I'm the 5th. So, I was the first attorney they brought into the VESTA program.
Cool. And it's so— I encourage everyone to check out and learn more about VESTA. It's an organization that empowers people through Education and advice and counseling and team building, and the professionals basically speak for free at a series of events that are now virtual. And at one point in time in the future, we'll come back to some sort of virtual and in-person combination, and, and we are there to basically provide advice and guidance and educate people. And so David was a part of that in Massachusetts. I'm a part of that in California. And David, David, actually, your website is amazing with all of your articles. And one of them in particular caught my attention, which is the price of peace.
Yeah.
And, and so I just thought that from your perspective, we could talk about the price of peace, what that means in the divorce world, whether you're in litigation or mediation, it really comes down to the same thing. Uh, it's all about, you know, settlement and what is that price of peace. So can you tell us a little bit about that article and, and we'll go from there?
Yeah, I'd love to, Scott. So the article, um, and, and the term the price of peace is something that came to me in the course of a really difficult mediation, um, that I was involved in with a client that had been going through a divorce for 5 years. And he and his wife had been separated for 10 years, and they were both ready to move on with their lives. They, they both had significant others that they wanted to live— move in with, and, and they needed to get the divorce case settled. But because some of— some really long-standing resentments each of them had, they couldn't settle their case. They were at impasse. And when I got involved in the case They were $30,000 apart. Now they were dividing over $1.2 million between them, and the wife wanted $30,000 extra from the husband to get the whole case resolved, and he wouldn't do it. And it turned out it was really because she had had an affair, you know, 10 years into the marriage, and he was still angry with her. and he was just not going to compromise. So it was crazy that the case was going to go to trial. It was going to cost $50,000, $60,000 for them to go to trial and save $30,000, and who knows what would happen, right? So I sat down with my client one day after a very difficult mediation session. I was representing him in the mediation, and he was crying that he couldn't move on with his life. And I said to him, well, if you settle the case, you can move on with your life. And, and, and he says, I'm never giving her that $30,000. So I asked him to think about what his life would be like if he went home to his fiancée— he was already engaged— that afternoon and told her that the case was over. And he got this look on his face of joy. And I said, when you think about that, is it worth the $30,000? And he's like, no, no, no, it's not worth the $30,000. And so I asked him to think about and to talk to her about what— really think through what their life will be like once they were able to complete the divorce and do what they wanted to do, including buying a second home, refurnishing their new house. And I asked him to think about what that peace would feel like to him and to her. What impact would that peace have, and what would be the price he'd be willing to pay for that peace? So he went home and he talked to her, and he called me back the next morning and he told me that the price of peace was $30,000 if that's what it had to be, but I should try to get him less. And we were able to settle the case for less than that $30,000. But he was— it was more than he really wanted to do, but he was so, um, uh, he saw the value, the subjective value of peace in his life, and he put a dollar value on it, and that made all the difference. And literally, they lived happily ever after.
That's so cool. So have you, uh, employed that same, uh, tactic, uh, since then?
I have. I, I Especially when clients are really struggling in a high-conflict case or they're at the point of impasse, I always talk to them about the price of peace. I ask them to really imagine their lives with the conflict of the divorce over. And many of the— many of my clients and many of all of our clients have been living in a battle for years. I mean, even if it's 1 year, it's too long. If it's 2 years, it's, it's really too long. And if it's 3 years, it's taken over their entire life. So I ask them to really consider what that means and what it's going to feel like when that fight is over. How much headspace are they going to have? How much freedom of movement are they going to have?
And what do you find other— of course, one benefit is obviously moving forward, being able to make your own decisions, having the conflict over so it's not hanging onto you, dragging you down. What are some of the other main benefits that people kind of hold on to when you're having those conversations?
A lot of the main benefits are financial because a lot of times people are holding off on starting that next business venture or taking a promotion or being creative and exploring their life, some other aspect of their life. And so, they can make money by giving up money. And sometimes they're just not productive at their regular job because of the divorce. And they will find that once that— once, um, you know, the stress is out of their lives, once they've stopped constantly talking to their supervisors and their co-employees and their co-workers and their clients and their customers about their divorce, they're finding more people coming back to them. They're finding themselves more engaged and able to be more productive Economically and financially. So, I mean, it really— people really do make money by paying money. I love that.
You know, that actually reminds me, David, real quick, of another article that you wrote. Not that I'm trying to start another conversation, but about the bar, about how people get advice at the bar, but they should be really taking advice from the bar. How did you phrase that?
So, I have a A blog I call David's Divorce Dictionary. And so it's A through Z, except I've only gotten to R so far. But I— but the definitions, the words are not what you normally find in a dictionary. For example, the word C is for cocktail party, and the definition of cocktail party is the worst place in the world to get advice about your divorce. So, and seriously, I mean, think about it. You know, our— when clients come to us, they have so many misconceptions about what their case is about, what's going to happen, what they should be doing, what kinds of, uh, how they should be negotiating. And they get all these misconceptions from people they talk to in bars, from people at cocktail parties, their family members, their entourage sometimes. people who really don't know anything about divorce except maybe what they heard or what they experienced themselves. So what I like to tell people is don't get advice at a bar, make sure you get advice from a member of the bar.
There you go. I knew I screwed it up a little bit, but yeah, it wasn't bad.
Um, but that's what VESTA is all about. So the VESTA program is about giving people good information, you know, from experts, from professionals so that they can have data, they can have information on which they can make good decisions about their divorce and about their life, frankly.
I love that. And David, can you tell us where people can find the A to Z, uh, dictionary blog?
You can. It's only 8 hours. Um, but yes, it's, it's on my website, uh, kellumlawgroup.com. That's kellemlawgroup.com, and it's called David's Divorce Dictionary. And, uh, you'll find some other entries you might enjoy as well. They— I try to be humorous with it, uh, but I try to give people practical but human kind of realistic advice.
That's so great. Well, David, thanks. We're going to cut it off, but thank you so much for joining us, uh, and I really appreciate it and looking forward to continuing the conversation.
