Tips for Communicating with your Spouse During your Divorce - Scott Levin & Lara Brunstrom

Hey everyone, this is Scott Levin, Chief Peacekeeper, and I am here with my good friend Lara Brunstrom. How are you, Lara?

So good.

So good. So Lara is a, uh, is a divorce and life coach. Uh, we work together, or we work with clients that are going through divorce, sometimes together, sometimes of course not. Um, and we've recorded a few of these videos in the past to talk about, uh, and give advice about issues relating to divorce. And today we thought a really good topic would be effective and ineffective communication between 2 parties while a divorce is ongoing. Whether you're working with a mediator like myself, or you have 2 attorneys and you're going through the court system, communication is still going to be ongoing and, and hugely important. So, Laura, what are your— when I say communication during divorce, kind of start us off. What are some of your initial thoughts?

Do it right. No. Yeah. Effective and ineffective is a huge— just like if we could put it into 2 categories or 2 buckets, you can take the high road or you can dig in. And especially if We're sharing a client, and mediation is the goal. Taking the high road, choosing effective communication is—it's key because you—you really can't be in a room with somebody throwing daggers and buying into the jabs and allowing yourself to reply to any kind of stuff. That is thrown your way. That's for sure. I'm gonna keep it clean. So hard. Um, you know, there's— and, and I'm gonna back us up for a minute because every week tends to bloom some sort of theme that happens throughout the week, at least in my world. And self-awareness is kind of my public service announcement for the day, which is My mentor coach said this to me when I started coaching, and she said— and it was something I learned personally, but then also going through coaching certification— which is, what bugs me about you is actually about me.

Ooh.

And that is a huge light bulb moment for people going through divorce, because a lot of times when you are throwing those daggers and you are being mean intentionally, because I'm pretty sure people know they're doing it. Um, it turns out that if you hold that mirror up to yourself, it is likely something that you don't like in yourself, or an insecurity, or your need for control. And the, the best example I can give that doesn't have anything to do with divorce. It was when I was raising my son. I would say the absolute— and you have 3 boys, so you'll appreciate this—

Mm-hmm.

The absolute worst parenting moments I ever had were when I saw something in him I didn't like about myself. And that's when I was like, oh, I could have handled that way better. And then I realized, I was like, oh, that's something I don't— that I do that I don't know. Like, I don't want him to have that. So when you translate that into divorce, a lot of times that comes hurtful, right? It shows up as pain. And so then if we transition that back into communication, effective and ineffective. If somebody sends you— I'm sure you're— we were just talking about this before we got online— those long text messages that you're like, what do I even do with that? And so many of my clients are freaking out because they don't know. They're crying, or they're pissed, or they don't know how to respond. And if I read it, because I'm emotionally detached from it, I'm like, well, this one line right here is asking about—

Yeah.

Next Friday if they can pick up 2 hours early. You're nodding loudly.

Yeah, yeah.

So all of that other stuff doesn't have anything to do with it. So if you can weed through and find the one little line in there in that 5-screen text message that actually is asking you something and only respond to that, that's where we're falling into effective. Communication. I would imagine in mediation it's really similar. You know, there's, there's a lot of things said, and then there's what the actual point is.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting when, when I see— I mean, those long emails and text threads that go back and forth when I'm put on them. I mean, they just— that's not effective communication about a divorce. A divorce is emotional as it is, more of a You know, the more that you can get down to brass taxes, the more efficient and effective you'll be about, you know, what it is that you want your divorce to and your post-divorce life to look like and feel like and work like. But when I am put on those communications, I am ignore I because I'm detached. You know, I'm ignoring all of the. the stuff that is irrelevant to my role. And I'm finding, just like you said, those, those— what are the— what's the actual point of this? If there's no point, most of my— most often my response will be like, how does this help us get from where we are to where we want to go? And the less that we're talking, although it's relevant to their relationship, the less that we're talking about What happened in 2016, and the more we're talking about where we are now and where we want and how we want this to look like in 2025 or 2027 and beyond, you know, that's the better solution, and that's the better path. And all of those discussions about what you did to me or what how you didn't do this and that. You know, that in written word, the less that that happens, the more effective that the mediation process can be for 2 people.

Absolutely. That's why I love getting a hold of people before they get to you. So they can show up processing 2017. They're already— it's done. It's in a bucket. It's over in the corner. We're leaving it there. So when we show up for mediation, we're done throwing all of that information out because it's not useful. It's certainly not useful. And there is a— there's a response. It's called BIFF. It's brief, informative, factual, friendly.

Yeah.

That is it. So you can take a 5-screen text message and respond with 2 sentences. You don't have to be mean. You're just very brief, to the point. It's informative. Yes, Friday earlier works. Factual, friendly. I have a A client right now who's, um, it's a stay-at-home mom of 4 kids and a working dad, like, outside of the home. And one of the things he just sent her recently was, because you're unemployed—

Hey. And I'm like, meanwhile, we know that, you know, working in the house is probably the hardest job, you know.

So I'm like, that, that was super helpful. Thank you for that. Like, it's just So those— that the undercurrent of that doesn't help. Like you said, how does this serve us? How is this making this process any easier?

So it's just going to result in an emotional response because you're saying—

Exactly. Exactly.

That's not what you're hoping for, then you shouldn't lead with that.

Yeah. And I think sometimes people really are hoping for the emotional response. They're getting off on the banter of back and forth. And the more you can rise above that and just weed out that one-liner and be really informative, factual, friendly, like, that's it.

Do you sometimes edit? Do you have clients that send you communications before they're sent to their staff?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, I write most of it. Like, I help them and developing that skill over time because I'll start and I'll be like, okay, let's read, like, let's, let's read it. Okay, here's the 1 or 2 lines that matter. Get rid of all the rest. Let's write a 2-line response. And then I'll do it a few times and they'll see how it works. And it really shuts down the other side because if you don't take the bait, like, there's nothing, there's no banter back and forth because then you just answered the question.

Yeah.

So then they'll start trying and they'll, they'll say, okay, how does this sound? You know, so we'll, we'll practice, like, I'll, I'll display it a few times and then they'll start practicing it. And hopefully by the time they get to mediation, they're so practiced and just really just being non-confrontational that they can have that conversation. And I've said this, I'm sure we've said it on one of these settings before, you don't get to divorce by being a good communicator with your spouse.

There you go.

There's something likely broken in the communication system. So as a coach, that's a huge part of what I work with them on is how, okay, this is a new dynamic, this is a new setup. How is it best to start communicating? And staying away from the ineffective, just to tap on that. I mean, I love staying on the positive side. Sure. I was, I was thinking, what are like the bullet phrases that people say, especially like in mediation? I had one client who really just wanted to keep saying that they were entitled, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know that I'd go in with that word. Like, that's, that tends to be a buzzword.

What you deserve, right?

What I deserve. I'm entitled to this. The other one is you never or you always, things to avoid, right? Like, because, because nobody always does.

No, you're right. Those are, those are hurtful ways of framing things. Even if—

One of my, one of my personal favorites that I was affected by was, I know you don't care about this, but—

But yeah.

I'm like, do I not care about that? So, or using past push buttons, like, and that, you know, you know, it pushes their buttons, you know, it's going to get them riled up. Those bullet phrases, I work really hard on just making those evaporate before they come to you. So they are trained in what's, what's the point? What are we trying to get to? If we're talking about this, we don't need to go back to 2017. We need to stay right here in the present moment, now forward. How are we going to get this result?

And it doesn't mean that you can't follow up with what's after the but. Because that's what you're really communicating about. But you're getting rid of the first part, which puts the person on the defensive, which makes them not want to be open to whatever it is comes next.

Absolutely.

You know, when you're in business, a lot of times when you get a mean message or someone's upset and you, they often say like, you know, wait a sec, you can write out the whole email, get it out what you want to say, and then just click delete. Right? So you get it out of your system, and then you can respond more, you know, less emotionally. Now, in divorce, you know, there's no greater emotionally, you know, hot kind of situation that you find yourself in in your life. But that doesn't mean that you can't put these tools into practice that Laura is suggesting and helps her clients with. in order to make the most effective result for your— in your best interest. That's what this is all about, framing your communication in a way that helps you achieve what you want. And putting the person on the defensive and getting them their blood to boil and accusing them of always, you know, I know that you didn't, you know, you've never cared about your kids, but, you know, how is that going to help us in any way?

Yeah.

So effective communication. And then the big takeaway from my perspective is You know, divorce isn't settled by, by email. Unfortunately, I actually think that's the big— the biggest issue in the divorce world is that younger attorneys, they don't know how to negotiate directly with human beings. They've lost that skill. It's all about email, and they'll sit there pounding away on their keyboard, and they can say whatever they want, and they're emotional. They're fired up for their clients.

Yep.

And they're pissing the other attorneys off, and they're getting them fired up. But how is that solving this? These things need to be hashed out with direct communication, at least if mediation's an option. When my clients start firing off emails back and forth, it doesn't help us move forward. We need to get into a meeting or a Zoom or a phone call and talk about what really is the issue and get over it so that we can then get back on track.

Absolutely. And I would, I would expand that. I would like, if you're going divorce, I would expand that to everything. I mean, I have a 23-year-old son. If anything ever gets hot and he's texting, I'm like, pick up the phone.

Yeah.

Make a phone call, have a conversation, because you can read so much tone. And I mean, all the voices that we have in our head all the time, and then you add some written Words, and then you add in inflection in places that maybe it was or wasn't intended. I 100% agree. I would say that's global, and especially in mediation and divorce, is you have to have the conversation. And the more grounded you are, and the more self-aware you are, and the more practiced you are at effective communication without damage, without the intent of causing damage, The better. Like, if I can deliver clients to you with that skill set somewhat practiced, I mean, you're already really good, but that just, that boosts up the scenario even better.

I agree. Um, so I'm gonna write in how you, in the comments here, how you could get ahold of Laura. But Laura, do you wanna talk a little bit about how people can reach you real quick?

I, I put it in the notes. I mean, I'm online at sterlingfirecoaching.com.

Um, work all over the country virtually.

Work all over. Which is a blast. I love working in different parts of the country.