Forgiveness, Transformation and Redemption with Shaka Senghor

You're listening to the Wired for Impact podcast. My name is Peter King and I'm the host of the program. In each episode, I bring you world class entrepreneurs, leaders and creators who are wired to make a difference. Each episode seeks to educate, illuminate and inspire you to become the best version of yourself so that collectively we can become a greater force for good in the world. When we're Wired for Impact, we can and will make a difference. All right, I'm here with Shaka Singhor. He is the head of diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Tripp Actions, also the Director's Fellow Alumni at the MIT Media Lab, college lecturer, author of a New York Times bestseller, Righting My Wrongs. He's the author of several other books as well and is convicted murderer in the American courts. In October of 2015, he teaches a class as part of the Atonement Project, a partnership between him, the University of Michigan and the MIT Media Lab. Singer was also named to Oprah's Super Soul 100 list of visionaries and influential leaders in 2016. So it is a deep pleasure and honor to have you on the podcast today. Shaka, thank you for being here.

Well, I'm super excited to be here. And hearing the intro always just makes me, you know, think about the journey. Some of those things are no longer where I'm at at this point in my life. I'm no longer at Trip Axel's Day changed their name to Navon. It's an incredible company and I left there in August as the VP of Corporate comms. But I had an incredible time being ahead of DEI there and working on some of those projects that you mentioned in the beginning.

Fantastic. Well, your story is quite an incredible story of transformation, of redemption. I'm sure of regret and some guilt and processing all of that. Um, I had Andre Norman on my podcast a while ago and there's a similar story there. And I'm fascinated by the amount of growth that one individual can have in his entire life. I know we don't want to necessarily rehash the past and, and talk about so much because you've told that story so many times and that the real power of your story is the transformation and what you're, the work that you're doing now. So I really want to emphasize that. However, for those that don't know your story, to give them some background from where you've come from. If you could give us the important highlights, the milestones that you experienced as a young child growing up in Detroit and how you got caught up in the drug culture there. And then ultimately what happened that led to your deep transformation?

Yeah, no, that's a really, really interesting and very relevant question. I think that my backstory will help your audience really understand why I share my story and why I share some of the things that I share through my writing and through other media outlets. You know, I grew up in the city of Detroit, my hometown, my beloved hometown. And you know, I grew up in a household that on the outside looking in, would have been considered the model of working class America. My dad was an Air Force reserves. He also worked for the state of Michigan in mental health. And my mother was primarily a homemaker, raising six children. And, you know, so on our side, you know, we have a landscape yard. We had the great home. We were actually the first black family on our block of a very diverse block. On our neighbors to the right was, you know, this Irish woman named Ms. Murray. And on the left we had a Spanish family. And, you know, we just had a really interesting mixture of people and very communal. And, you know, despite the exterior, you know, there were things going on in that household. My parents relationship was fragmented. There was high levels of physical and emotional abuse. And when I was about 14, you know, 13 or 14, I think I was 13, I just got to a breaking point and ran away from home. You know, I was a honor rose scholarship kid and with dreams of being a doctor. And when I ran away from home, what I thought would happen was that, you know, some other family would, Would. Would see the potential and embrace me and, and welcome me into the warmth that I think all children are deserving of. And unfortunately, during that time of being a. A transient homeless youth, I was seduced into the crack cocaine trade. This is when crack first began to penetrate the Midwest. And I got caught up in this culture that I was completely clueless about. You know, even now, when I reflect back on the last remnants of my childhood, you know, it's always heartbreaking to me, you know, to think that I was a kid in this very adult environment and I experienced all the horrors that came with that environment. You know, my childhood friend was murdered. Um, you know, I was beaten nearly to death. I was robbed at gunpoint, and I became addicted to crack cocaine at 14 years old. And this was all within the first six months of being in this. In this horrific culture. Despite those things, I remained in the culture. And when I was 17 years old, I got shot multiple times. You know, after I was shot, I was rushed to the hospital by a friend of mine who had Got shot the previous summer in an event that his friend was murdered. And, you know, he drove me to the hospital because the ambulance never came. I got rushed into the hospital. They took two of the bullets out, left one bullet in the end, patched me up, and basically just sent me back to the neighborhood. Like, I didn't. I didn't meet with one psychologist, one psychiatrist, one therapist. I didn't have any clue of what PTSD was. And when I got back to my neighborhood, I was paranoid. I was angry, I was sad. I did not really understand how to process those emotions as a kid. And I found myself becoming really, really angry. And I was angry at being afraid. I was angry at standing on the corner and seeing a car come past and filling my body chintz up, because that's how I got shot. And I began to internalize all those experiences. And in that moment, I just made a plan for myself to carry a gun, that if I found myself in a similar situation, I would shoot first. And 16 months or so later, I got into a conflict about 2 in the morning. The conflict arose after another shooting had occurred at a party. I was deejaying, and I was on edge like everybody else in our group at the time. When a person that I sold drugs to wanted to make a deal, I didn't want to make that deal. It escalated to a heated and intense argument. And as that argument escalated, another man, a man named David, joined it to the com to the conversation. We kind of went back and forth. And as it escalated, I pulled out a handgun and fired four shots that tragically caused David's death. And, you know, it was one of the most horrific nights for David's family. And it was a horrific night for my family and myself as well. And, you know, when I went to prison, I was sentenced to 17 and 40 years in prison for second degree murder, felony firearms. And when I went to prison, I was just a bitter, angry kid. I was so confused at how I could, you know, cause this man's death. And, you know, it took me years to reconcile all those feelings, but that's where the journey really began to unfold in this way that led me to the path that I'm on today.

I think one of the most scary parts of that story is how you really were set in the right trajectory initially on a lot of potential. Smart kid, had dreams of being a doctor, and within months, you're sucked into this culture that had a grip on you for quite some time. That's a very scary thing. I think that's A scary thing for a lot of parents when they are trying to raise kids, they're doing the right thing, or at least they're doing the best they can. And to have that happen so quickly, what advice would you have for parents who have children at that age right now and they're worried about possibly having them have the wrong connections, wrong relationships, and get pulled into something like that?

Really a great question. It's one of the things that inspires my work today. You know, when I got out of prison, I knew that I had a responsibility to my community and most importantly, to the kids in my community who were growing up in similar backgrounds. And so I began to work very early on with schools and work with kids who were growing up in abusive households and environments where poverty was rampant, drug abuse was rampant. But what's really been interesting to me is that, you know, when I talk to kids and I talk to kids from every class strategy, you can think of, you know, kids who are in private school, kids who are in public school, you know, kids who grow up with all the abundance of wealth you can imagine, as well as kids who grow up in poverty. And what I found is the through line that I would say to parents is, you know, you have to be intentional about creating space to have real conversations with your children. And once you begin to close that door to where your child doesn't feel that they can come and speak with you, then you're opening the door for them to speak to people who don't really mean them any good. When I reflect back on being seduced into that culture, and I intentionally use that word, seduction, and the reason I, I, I do it is because the culture is very predatory toward vulnerable children. And what happened with me was, you know, this man, he saw that I was disheveled. You know, my clothes were dirty and dusty. And, you know, these, these predators, they pay attention to kids in the neighborhood. They're looking for the next victim. They're looking for the next drug deal, the next, you know, prostitute that they can, you know, influence. And he zoomed in on those things, right? It was like, hey, I'm gonna take you to get something to eat. I'm gonna take you and help you get some clothes and provide you with a place where you can shower and do all the things. And so early on, it was very manipulative in the sense that he offered up this sense of security, which I think most children are looking for security and acceptance. So what I would say to parents is, keep the doors of communication open. Take your Ego out of it. You know, remind yourself that you were a teenager at one point. You were a kid at one point who was curious, who was fascinated with, you know, the things that existed outside the house. So. But I believe if you. If you keep those doors of communication open, check your ego, and realize that these kids are on their own human journey, you know, you're. You're at an advantage because now you're the most trusted person that your child will turn to. And, you know, I think the tragedy of myself is that, you know, I just didn't have that communication level with my parents where I felt like I can trust, saying to them, hey, these things are hurting me, and they're impacting how I show up in school. They're impacting my experience with other human beings. And, you know, so now what I do as a parent and as a mentor is I make sure that no matter what I think about a thing, that I check that. And really recenter my energy on my son and those who I am, you know, responsible for mentoring. Mm.

I think it's so important to emphasize the. The need for children to be seen and heard. And to your point, when they don't feel that, when that's not happening, and frankly, even just the attempt of it, I think if mom and dad took some time to just try to meet and connect, a child receives the very least some of that intentional love. But to not feel seen and heard is a. Can be a slippery slope. And like you said, when there's predators out there looking for you, and you were looking for that too, like you said, you were looking for a safe place, you know, someone to receive you. And so that's a very. That's a very dangerous potential. One of the things that was really interesting about your story was when you were in prison, when you had that realization that you dealt with abuse and that you initially grew up thinking, like, I think a lot of kids think you. You don't necessarily have the perspective as a child yet to know that, ah, this is kind of a shitty situation. And we don't really realize that until we get a little bit more mature. Walk us through what that realization was like when you were in prison and realized, oh, wow, I actually have been dealing with a lot of abuse at home.

When I. When I began to even be able to call what I experienced abuse, it was, you know, as Oprah would put it, an aha moment. You know, one of those moments where I was, you know, at this crossroads. I was on about my ninth year in prison. I was in solitary confinement. And I had got a letter from my oldest son who told me that his mother told him while I was in prison. And it was devastating. You know, it was devastating as a dad to think that my son would grow up to see me as a monster. And so I began this. This kind of reconciliation of how do I, you know, answer this. This burning question of how did I end up here? And, you know, I was reading philosophy. I'm a big fan of philosophical thinking, and I was reading Socrates Apology, and he talked about the unexamined life not being worth living. So I was like, you know, I've never really examined how I ended up here. And so I began to journal and just, you know, really kind of chart the paths from my early childhood. What was the first time that I remember being hit, you know, for something that was minor and that. That ability to say, hey, that was actually wrong. And that shifted how I thought about myself. You know, the devastation for my parents separating, you know, the emotions that I attached to that. I began to realize that my dad being out of the house was the first experience of not feeling safe and secure. And so that journaling process and getting to the truth and giving myself permission to just write all the things down, you know, I think it's one of the greatest powers we have as adults, is to really go back unapologetically, say, hey, here's. This is what happened to me. Here's what I'm responsible for, and here's how I want to live my life moving forward. So I highly encourage adults to. Journal is so important because what I realized through that process was that I had stuffed so many things down and I had internalized all those things. I thought that, you know, love was. Came with pain. My mother, when she would, you know, beat me, would say, I'm doing this because I love you. And it made me very paranoid, very insecure. I wasn't confident in my ability to make decisions without fear that if I made the wrong decision, it was going to result in, you know, a beating or a punishment. And as I began to journal and unpack that, I was able to reassign responsibility. I was not responsible for those hits. I was not responsible for the things that were said to me verbally. I was not responsible for my parents separation and ultimately their divorce. And it was one of the most liberating things I've ever done for myself, because from there I gave myself, you know, a tab of raster, like a blank slate, the ability to say, you know, I can chart a path forward Based on who I know I am, not what the system thinks I am, not what, you know, anyone who would judge me solely on my worst moment would think I am. But I have this opportunity right here to write a new script, and that's what I began to do.

You were in solitary confinement for how many years?

So I did a total of seven years in solitary confinement. And at that point, I was in solitary confinement for four and a half years straight. So from 1999 to 2004, 23 hour lockdown, five days a week, 24 hour lockdown the other two days a week. And, you know, it's one of the most barbaric, inhumane things that we do to human beings. I mean, like, we could not, you know, there's no world that exists where you can lock a dog in a dog kennel for that amount of time and, and expect that that dog would behave, you know, with care and diligence. We know what happens with, you know, animals when we lock them in a cage and that's, we do this to human beings and then we expect them to come out and play nice when, when it's really dehumanizing, degrading, and something that is really ultimately designed to destroy the human spirit. I was just fortunate, you know, I was really fortunate to be literate. I was fortunate that before I ended up in solitary, I had incredible mentors who guided me to books. And those books became my escape as well as my, you know, my saving grace, if you will.

I can't even begin to imagine that amount of solitary confinement. It does, it feels, it sounds like spiritual torture. I mean, to have that little connection with the rest of humanity just sounds absolutely terrifying to me. What was that like? What, what did you learn? I, I mean, you talked about having books. Thank God you had books. I think you'd go mad if you didn't have something to just, yeah, mentally tune into. But how did that transform you?

You know, it's really interesting because I, I, I, you know, I get that question often and, and sometimes the question worries me, depending on asking, because they're like, oh, well, solitary actually worked out for you. Like, you came out, came out of that environment a better person. You know, the reality is, you know, you get better when you make a choice to be better. And me, it was all about the choices that I was willing to make. But again, I was fortunate to be literate. You know, the average reading level in prison is third grade. And, you know, for me, reading books of people who had stories of resiliency, people who had overcome obstacles. That was a game changer for me because it just gave me a little bit of hope that if I put my mind to it, I could overcome anything. I was also reading books that was about the impact of positive thinking and about the impact of mastering your own thought process. And Books as a Man Thinker by James Allen and books like that really awaken to me the power of the mind. Books about being present in a moment and recognizing that no matter what's going on, we only have the moment that we're in and we can choose how we want to feel in that moment, despite all the things that's going on around us. And it was one of the most liberating things that I've ever experienced, was tapping into the power of my mind. And though you haven't been through solitary, I can tell you that you've had an experience that is akin to what it feels like to be isolated. And I think your audience has as well, because I witnessed it with the global pandemic, where we all find ourselves shuttered in, not able to go in our workplace, be able to go amongst our family. And though it wasn't as barbaric and humane as solitary, there was something very isolating about that time. And the real thing about it that I found a lot of people struggle with, you know, during a pandemic is uncertainty. You know, they would give us a date when this thing would be over and then that date would come and it wasn't over. And that is where the anxiety exists in. It's in a space of like, not being able to know an outcome. And it's the same thing as solitaires. You don't know when you're ever getting out or if you're ever getting out, and it begins to play on your mind. And so, you know, I, I had read this book called Cages of Steel some years prior, and it really outlined what's supposed to happen to your mind when you're isolated. And that, that knowledge going into it, you know, helped me recognize whenever I was feeling vulnerable or whenever I was feeling like, you know, there's no end in sight. Okay, how do I recalibrate and, and how do I check in with myself? You know, sometime it was journaling, sometime it was, you know, just jumping down, doing some push ups to feel my own body. And then other times I would just grab a random book and just open it up and escape through those pages. And, you know, for me it was just, every day was figuring out how do I navigate the pain at a moment and recognize that if I can get through the pain at a moment, I can come out on the other side of anything. And I live my life like that now. Like, you know, I'm free in a sense of like, I'm out of prison, but life is life, you know, and the more you get into adulthood, the more things come up that challenge you and the more things you have to face and confront, you have to think about, how do I want to address this and how do I. How do I want this thing to impact me? And so, you know, I'm a big advocate for breaking free of all these different prisons that we kind of impose on ourselves. And I learned, you know, kind of the tactics and strategies from being in solitary.

The people, excuse me, that I've had on the podcast who have served in prison and have come out better from it, have all talk about that concept of the mental prison and breaking out of the mental prison. You've shared your journey and some of the research that I've done on you. You talk about breaking out the ego, the prison of the ego. What is that to you? Define that for my listeners and how you broke free from that.

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting, especially in the times we live in now where, you know, you look on social media and everybody's like a me, me, me, me, me. You know, it's all about me. It's all about what makes me feel good. It's all about what political party I stand on the side of. It's just all this energy around, you know, self centeredness and really being focused on what's in it for me. And when I began to think about what does transformation look like, you know, part of that was how can I best be in service to others? How can I reconcile, you know, my past in a way that honors David's life? You know, that was really important to me is that, you know, this tragic story to where this man's life was taken as a result of a decision I made. I can never repay that. There's no world where I can bring David back. What I recognize is that there was a world that I can help other young people not make the same kind of decisions that I've made. And I can also help society understand that 90% of people who are incarcerated will at some point come home. And how do we best situate them so that they are an asset and not a liability? And, you know, I. My work, you know, in my life that I believe is just my life call is to help people get Free. And part of that freedom is really escaping the ego that, that oftentimes forces us to only focus on things that we think are important to us. And so for me, the practice of service has been instrumental in and subduing the ego. The practice of, you know, being able to put myself in somebody else's shoes and thinking about what did I need When I was 15 years old, what did I need when I was 16 years old? And so when I go into those schools and I talk with young kids who come from where I come from, you know, I'm not thinking about, hey, look at me, I've made it through. You can be me. I'm really thinking about how can I best be in service to your future self and what you want out of life and how do you want to navigate it? You know, what are things that I've learned through, you know, my, my poor decision making and experiences that I can share that sets you up for success. And so to me, it's in parenting, you know, I always give kind of like these anecdotal experiences that I had early on with, with my son. And just like, you know, he'll, he would get up and he put on mismatch shoes and you know, that would have never flew in my household. You know, my, my parents were very aware of public image. You know, that was a part of, you know, our, you know, ancestry of coming out of slavery and coming out of, you know, civil rights movements where we, you know, were set up to have to prove to, you know, white America that, that we were worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. And that carried over to our household. So we always had to kind of have on the face. You know, if there was a holiday, you got to put on a little suit and all the things. And you know, with me it's just like, dude, you want to wear mismatch shoes? Like, it's, it's cool because it's, it's really about your self expression. This is your life, this is your journey. I try to minimize my influence in this life. You know, I try to make sure that, you know, I have very simple rules about being a father is like I got to protect and provide, but part of protection is protecting you from my ego. Protect from, you know, I've lived the life so I know what all can go wrong. But you have not lived life. You're living a very different experience. And you know, part of provision is making sure that I'm setting you up to navigate life in your own way. And so, you know, I remember one day I bought him, you know, my son, some jogging pants, and clothes are expensive for kids, you know, and immediately he wanted to draw on him. And I was like, okay, here it goes. Here we. Here we are. You know, And I was like, you know what? Absolutely. Draw them. They're yours. You know, you have to wear them, you know, and. And then he created this beautiful art on these pants. And I'm like, that would have never happened when I was a kid growing up. And so he is recognizing that every human we encounter, they are on their own journey. Um, you know, you're calling it adults who still have that child inside of them that wants to be accepted and loved and appreciated and valued. And I believe that, you know, part of, you know, subduing the ego is recognizing when a person is in any moment, you know, that causes dissatisfaction. You know, if you can empathize with the child inside of them that's fighting. In this adult body, it's easier to resolve conflict. It's easier to make friends. It's easier to do business. It's easier to develop meaningful, rich relationships because you're thinking about what you bring to the table as a human that adds value to those that you encounter.

I think one of the biggest mental hurdles to overcome is the feeling of guilt and getting beyond that. Obviously, in your experience, I'm sure that showed up a lot for you. Talk to us about the power of forgiveness and specifically with the letter that you received from David, the gentleman whose life you took from his mother, how meaningful to your transformation was that letter to you?

So about. About five or so years into my incarceration, I received this letter from this woman named Nancy. And I had no idea who Nancy was because I really didn't know anything about David, because the night of his death was the first night that we encountered each other. And when I got this letter from Nancy, she was actually his godmother, and she helped raise him. And I remember her writing and said, you know, you're the man responsible for killing David, and here's who David is. David was a husband. He was a father. He was a great friend and a great human being. And I wanted to, like, stop reading that letter. And I wanted to ball that letter up. And, you know, I continued to read the letter, and I remember her saying that, you know, despite the devastation you've caused us, I forgive you. Not only do I forgive you, I love you, because that's what God will want from me. And I was about 25 or 26 years old. I was not emotionally or psychologically mature enough to even understand the power and the beauty of that gift she had given me. But I kept that letter. And I would read that letter over and over and over again, trying to feel the sense of what it means to be forgiven. And it was years. I mean, it literally took me years. Nancy and I, we corresponded throughout my incarceration. And she always would go back and, you know, tell me, like, hey, listen, you were a kid. You were a broken kid. And it was hard for me to believe that about myself because I accepted such a horrible narrative. And eventually I started to get to a space to where I began to forgive myself by journaling about all those past experiences that I talked to you about earlier. And it started to help me see that, you know, that night was not just a culmination of me making one bad decision. It was a culmination of all the things that had happened in my life. And being able to acknowledge that I was a very traumatized kid. I had experienced so much violence, so much heartbreak and abuse that, you know, when you really lay it out and you stream it out, the outcomes almost seemed inevitable, that eventually, you know, as a hurt person, I would hurt someone. And it did not excuse the decision. It just explained to me, you know, here's who I had become and here's how I had become that person. And it also gave me permission to pursue a deeper calling in my life and pursue an idea that, you know, these are things that have happened, these are things that you're responsible for and you have an opportunity to create new things. And that's what the power of forgiveness was for me. But it had. I had to embrace it. It's a two sided thing, right? It's like I had to embrace that. You know, I had to accept that this was a gift, this was an offering that I could embrace in my spirit. And to make sure that I also extended that to those who had harmed me, that I gave them the grace of forgiveness, you know, and that ability to forgive my mother and to forgive my dad and to forgive, you know, the people who had physically hired me over the years. It was one of the most liberating things, you know, and it did not excuse behavior. It wasn't about letting people off the hook, nor did I want to be let off the hook. You know, I served the time, I served the time that I was given. You know, in serving the time, I also recognize I owe something to my community. I had a responsibility to give back in a meaningful way that wasn't part of the sentence that the court handed down, that was the human sentence. That was the, you know, the experience of saying, hey, you know, I've caused harm, you know, not only to David's family, but to my community. And I have a responsibility to, you know, use that experience to help other people avoid the harms that I've, you know, that I can't cause in my own life. And so, you know, it's the most meaningful work to me. It's the work that I'm the most passionate about. That is the work that does not come with, like a physical paycheck. It's the work that comes with a spiritual paycheck. That's like, hey, we're healing, you know, we're, we're able to, you know, help young people make better decisions and mitigate some of the gun violence that we see in our community. And, you know, it's work I'll be doing for the rest of my life.

Spiritual paycheck. I love that. That's a beautiful concept. The abuse that you endured from your mother had, as you mentioned earlier, getting the abuse while also being told that this is a manifestation of my love for you is its own sort of special kind of fucked upness. If I could just say it bluntly, I'm sure that involved a lot of entangled, confusing ideas of what love actually is, of what pain actually is, to untangle that. And like you said, pay the forgiveness forward to your mother. Did you do in your mental work to find solid ground again, passing on that forgiveness to your mother? Did you look at her lifespan and what led her to, to that point to abuse her own child?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, me and my mother, we're in a, we're in a special place now. We're in a great space of healing. And it wasn't easy. You know, when I wrote about the abuse, it, it was heartbreaking to my mother, you know, and I remember her calling me and saying to me, why would you write about this? You know, And I told her, I said, you know, I want to have a responsibility. I have a responsibility to kids who are going through what I went through. And my mother said to me, you know, you don't, you don't understand what my life was like, you know, you don't understand how I got there. And I said, ma, that's exactly it. I did not understand that, kid. It was impossible for me to understand that you had went through something and, and, and, and it was a, it was a dust up, you know, it was a, it was a brawn for a minute it was like, you know, my mother was like, I'm getting off the phone now. And I'm like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna talk, we're gonna stand in this, we're gonna sit in it like two adults and we're gonna talk about it. You know, I, to my mother's credit, you know, I, and I love and I appreciate this about her mother shared everything, everything that she went through. And my mother went through a horrific upbringing. The level and the depth of the things that, you know, she went through helped me to better understand that a lot of her behaviors were fear based. You know, she feared that if she didn't instill this fear of her in us, that we would go out into the world and be harmed by the world because that's what had happened to her. And so, you know, product forgiveness is understanding this context. It's putting things into perspective. And if you're fortunate to be able to do that with the person who's caused you harm, you know, it's amazing. And you're not always going to get that, you know, you're not always get reconciliation in that manner. But what I realized is that with my mother, she had a story, you know, she had a backstory. You know, I have a backstory. And so when I began to think about people that call me, calls me harm, even those whose backstory I did not know, I know something happened to those people. I, I, and I may be, this may be the naivete on my behalf of what I think about humans. I think we are inherently good. I think we are inherently designed to have connection. And I think things happen, you know, things happen that lead to us feeling insecure and feeling fearful and feeling afraid. And we begin to react out of those feelings and it becomes terrible. Other people, and we see it in these micro ways in terms of like households. And then you see it on a macro level when we're talking about, you know, global harms that are being caused. And so for me, context was everything the same with my dad. Both my parents allowed me to interview them, they allowed me to ask them questions, you know, and, but I also had to lead the questions. That was in a way that was empathetic and compassionate. You know, it's hard to confront the wrong things you've done in life. It's one of the hardest things ever to really face it. And I went through years of not wanting to deal with the fact that I caused a man's death, you know, and it was really hard to Reconcile that and to really get to a space of like, you know, accepting that it was shameful, you know, and I was disappointed, and I had let myself down, and I had caused this family hurt and harmed, and that doesn't go away. You know, I still have to navigate that to this day. You know, there's so many different things that trigger feelings of guilt, you know, feelings of disappointment, you know, and fortunately, I have the tools to navigate those.

I think one of the most important lessons I've learned on my journey with respect to guilt, as you said, those feelings continue to come up, that there's a reason for them to come up, and that there's value in them coming up. If you didn't feel any guilt whatsoever, it wouldn't necessarily honor the. The life that was taken. And so to be able to have enough forgiveness in yourself, to be able to feel that feeling of guilt as it still shows up even today, but then process it, and how do you transform it and how do you transmute it into something of value? And that's what's so inspiring about your story, is that you're taking that hand that you were dealt and you're turning it into a much bigger legacy of love and forgiveness. I love the story of how her letter to you, David's mother to you, your ability to forgive yourself, pass that forgiveness on to your mother, how that's affected her life. And that ripple effect is so profound and so powerful, and it's the work I think we're here to do. If I could ask you, sort of taking a step back for a second is a little bit more of a generic question, but to me, it's very relevant to your whole journey. How would you define what makes a good man? What is a man to you, to be a good man, and then ultimately a good father. But let's start with just being a good man.

That's such a great question, especially in these times that we live in where. Where so many narratives around man are not really good. You know, the way that value was assigned to us is like, can we protect and can we provide? As if that's our only means of contributing to the world. And, you know, to me, it is one of the things that is the most annoying about social media now is just, you know, we're in these. These gender wars and these culture wars. And, you know, to me, really being a good man comes back to just being a good human being. You know, do you have the capacity to be empathetic, compassionate, and thoughtful? Are you a nurturer? In a meaningful way. You know, I always tell people that once you're a father, you become a father. So every child is in your presence, meaning that you have a responsibility, you know, to, to stand as a source of, of, of wisdom and insight and perspective, you know, to provide guidance when you see a child navigating something that's checked, you know, you step in good human beings, you know, be it, you know, mothers or fathers or men or women or non binary conforming. However people tend to identify are people that lean in with compassion and empathy and they're working on growing their capacity. You know, when I think about being a good man, I think about, am I constantly learning? Am I learning to engage as a human being better? Am I learning to be a better partner, you know, which requires a lot of listening. I don't think anything has challenged me in terms of being a man as dating, you know, and being in relationship, things that I thought I knew or I thought was the right thing to do as a man. You know, so many of those things were wrong. So many of those things were about male ego, you know, And I really learned that deep relationship and real intimacy requires a lot of listening and really understanding that we have a very different lived experience than our partners, you know, and so to me, when I, when I think about what does it mean to be a good man, I think of someone whose thought evolved, someone who's willing to learn and continue to learn. And it doesn't just mean being literate, it means like learn about life. You know, not everybody can read and write, but you can learn about life, continue to emotionally evolve. You know, there's parts of my experience where it was all about, you know, how tough can you be, how resilient, how much, how much can you endure? You know, and now I see the emotional evolution is like, you know, how much can you make sure that you're doing self care so that you can actually care for others? Um, how many times can you create spaces for you to authentically relieve the pressure by crying and really letting it out and saying that it's okay, that you don't feel certain about things? And how many people can you share in a real way when you're, when you're nervous about something, when there's a big opportunity and you're uncertain and you're. And you don't have to act like, oh, I got this, when you might not have it. No. And so that, that, you know, spiritual evolution, you know, how are you practicing your relationship or whatever it is that you believe about Your connection to being here on this earth, you know, and so to me, a good man is an evolving human being that recognizes that other human beings are on their own journey, that we're all here to learn from each other. You know, my dad said something a while ago that I. I'll never forget. He just was like, you know, your children aren't here for you to teach them. They're actually here for you to learn from them, you know, And I was like, dad, what are you talking about? You know, And I can tell you, as I've watched my son grow, I'm constantly learning about myself as a man. You know, I'm learning like, man, you know, this is. This is tough. We don't hear a narrative about how tough it is to parent as a dad because that does not fit the cultural narrative about parenting. I can tell you it's tough. You know, I've. I've co parented, you know, my son for most of his life. I've co parented while dating. I've co parented while being single. I do all the things that have been required of me as a parent. You know, I'm a nurturer. When he's sick, you know, I'm in nurture mode. You know, I got to take care of that towel on his head and fix that soup and, you know, do all the things. And it's the greatest feeling of like, oh, this is what real protection and provision looks like. But we don't. We don't get a chance to share that part of our journey as dads. Even now, you know, sometime I'm just laying on the couch and he just comes and he snuggles that to me. Like, we don't. We don't see that. You know, we see the dads out there coaching. We see the dads out there providing discipline, structure, you know, but we're way more than that, you know, And I, like all my friends, all of my friends are incredible dads. And a lot of times we've been talking about our journey as father, we get so emotional because there's so much love there, you know. And so, you know, to me, being a good man is being a good steward of all the relationships, you know, you're responsible for and, you know, really leaning into the softer part of emotions, if you will, which to me, they're really not soft. They actually the harder emotions, because it requires so much work to get there. And I'm excited about it, man. I'm like, you know, I love when I have an emotional reaction to something, you know, because that's human, you know, and it's beautiful, and it's. It's magical. And I wish all dads have that, you know, I wish all dads have on Father's Day, something more than the tools to fix everything for everybody else. I think that's how, you know, that even that day is marketed, right? It's like, oh, we can get you a great barbecue grill, and we can get you a great new set of tools or a drill or. Or a new magic hammer that's come out. But it's like, you know, actually, I would love a gift certificate to the spa and some tickets to the great bottle of tequila, you know, because I want to experience the soft life sometime.

Yeah, I hear you. Those. When you're talking about your son snuggle up to you and. Or taking care of him and nurturing him during his sickness. That landed, man, because I. I can imagine that that was. I'm sure you saw yourself, you know, and, like, this is what I needed. I just needed a dad to come in and be able to give me a hug or just, you know, you do okay. You know, like, the softer side of that. That's such a beautiful testimony. What do you think in your work that you're doing right now? What's the biggest need? What's the biggest message that you'd like folks to hear where they can serve in the type of work that you're.

Doing and the work that I'm doing now? You know, I recently left an incredible company. The company's name is now McBaun. At one point, it was called Trip Actions. And I had multiple jobs there. I was the head of dei. I was the head of sales and success culture. And then I became the VP of corporate Comms before I. Before I left the company. And while I was there, you know, I began to really kind of think about, you know, what was my. What was my dream for my life before getting out of prison. And my dream centered around storytelling in writing. You know, I'm an avid reader, and I love a great story. I love the power of magic and beauty of words. I can talk books like Lily all day. And what I've realized through this journey is that ultimately the storytelling was really about finding freedom. And, you know, my work today is really about helping people find their personal freedom. You know, I tell the story of recognizing through journaling that I was incarcerated mentally well before I was physically locked up. And I was praying before I was ever paroled. And, you know, what I realized is that there are all these kind of self imposed or arbitrarily imposed prisons that we find ourselves in the prison of success. You know, if you think about work life and you're in corporate, it's like, oh, they put the golden handcuffs on you. You know, that's the prison of success. You know, we sign up for jobs because we hope on the other end of our retirement that there's a great payoff and then we're locked into this maniacal way of working. And that, that does not always feel the most humane. You know, there's the prison of guilt. You know, there's the prison of guilt about we didn't do enough, we didn't accomplish enough, we wasn't nice enough. The prison of grief. You know, I went through, you know, the tragedy of my brother being murdered in 2021, and I had to reconcile being able to grieve, you know, the prison of forgiveness. How many of us are locked into old narratives that no longer serve us but that still impact us because we haven't let it go? You know, the prison of heartbreak. You know, if you've been in a relationship that your heart broken and how does that impact your new relationship and what are you holding on to there? That does not set that relationship up for success. So I believe my journey and my testimony and my work is about freedom and agency. And, you know, and again, I saw so much of that during the pandemic when people, people were reaching out to me and I'm not. And I mean, you know, there was the everyday people reaching out to me, but there were also people who you would think that had it all together and. Cause they had all the trappings of white and they were like, hey, Shaka, how do I get through this next moment when I don't know what's going to happen? You know, I got hundreds of employees relying on me and I don't know what to say to them. I got to lay people off during a tough time and how do I make peace within myself so that I can shepherd those who have not been laid off? And it was powerful to see powerful people in the world coming to me and saying, hey, I need help with this. You know, how do you get to a sense of freedom and free myself from the guilt and the hurt? Because I don't want to lay these people off, but I have to do what's best for the company. And so you know, that that word now to me is the most meaningful because I know that when people find their true freedom to just be life becomes so magical, so beautiful, so enriched, and you have an opportunity to connect with everybody around you in the best way possible.

Do you have an example of how that message has landed with some of the people that you've worked with and transformed their lives? You've mentioned a couple people that reached out to you during the pandemic, but what's one of the best examples that you have of that ripple effect showing back to you?

I think I would say one of the best examples is my work being able to work with Oprah and being able to share my story with her. And I remember this, this, this guy, you know, the day that that episode aired, he text me this message and he said to me, you know, my plan for my day to day was commit suicide. And I saw your interview and it reminded me of a conversation. He was a guy that I knew from prison. You know, it reminded me of a conversation we had. Prince, you get out where you said, here's the life you're going to chart for yourself. In that moment of seeing you on there with Oprah, it freed me from those thoughts I was having about taking my life. And he shared that with me and it was just like, wow, you know, and then it made me think about what do people say to me when I'm out on a book tour? And they come up to me And I cannot tell you how many people come and say, man, that conversation, your ability to accept, you know, your responsibility and the guilt you had as a result just allowed me to open up and talk to my partner about this thing I'm struggling with or to really confront, you know, this addiction that I have to opioids and to really lean into helping my child who is struggling. And so those stories are just countless, you know, I can't even tell you how many, you know, in 10 years, for 10 years straight, man, I get a message every day from someone who's read My Word, heard one of my talks, and they talk about how personally liberating it is for them to see me thriving in the world, talking to the who's who of business and entertainment and seeing the impact that it has on them. I mean, with Oprah, the most mind blowing thing for me was when she said, you helped me just break through a thought that I had about people who were persecuted, you know, and she was like, I thought, you know, these were people who were just did bad things. And I didn't think about the rest of their life. I didn't think about what, what brought them to that moment. And after our Conversation. She began to do a lot of work around raising awareness about incarcerated people. And so it's moments like big and small where you see the impact, you know, and you're thinking, like, wow, I influenced Oprah when she's influenced the world. And then she created space for me to tell that story that's impacting lives in a real way. And so, you know, I just see it in all these different. Different iterations. You know, I've seen it in politics and being able to change bills and change laws and, you know, help people see the humanity of those who are incarcerated, you know, and it's not, for me, it's never been about not holding people accountable. It's about holding ourselves accountable as taxpayers. Like, we have a responsibility. And I don't. I don't think, you know, society often really thinks about. Once we incarcerate people, sometimes we feel like our job is done. It's like, no, your job is actually just beginning, because these people are going to get back out, and they're going to get back out, you know, and they're going to behave based on how they were treated. What did they have access to? Do they have access to classes, they had access to mental health therapy. Because eventually, they're going to be your neighbors, they're going to be in your community, they're going to be, you know, at your local gas station. And so we have a greater responsibility as society when it comes to that. But it starts with our own personal sense of freedom.

I was going to ask you. I know we're running out of time. This question honestly could deserve its own episode altogether. But what would you say very quickly, if you could, is the biggest need in prison reform? What's the best message as a society do we need to hear in order to help heal that injustice?

Ironically, I would say quickly, the message, I would say, is that, you know, the onus of responsibility of what happens in our criminal justice system is not just on the police or the guards or the politicians. It's on us as human beings. And if we want to create a better, safer world, we have to lean in. You know, so visit your local jail, go volunteer at your prison, go meet people who are incarcerated and learn their stories and they're willing to tell them. And I promise you, when you walk out of that place, you'll have a different perspective, and you'll want to do more to make sure that people are coming home healthy and whole.

It's such a defining moment in a society. I forget who said it, but they essentially said that you can tell the nature of a society by the way that they treat their imprisons and they're homeless. Those are like sort of two indicators, two markers and so what a powerful message. Shaka, I so appreciate you opening up. I mean we're virtual strangers. We've gotten to know each other just a little bit before this call, but to be able to share your story and open your heart and be vulnerable with us has been very powerful. I know that this message is going to resonate with a lot of my listeners and who knows who that's going to affect and pass that ripple forward of love and forgiveness and self forgiveness. Thank you so much for doing that. Where can people go to find out more about you and to get tapped into more your world and your books, et cetera.

First of all, just thank you so much for having me and creating space for these type of conversations. They're so important. They're long overdue and greatly needed by society. So, you know, thank you for the space that you're creating with your podcast and your audience. I'm easy to find. I can like put my name in Sakasing Gore website. Everything is consistent. So social media website is all pretty consistent. Just my name and they can find my books, write my wrongs like depredemption in American prison and let us to the sands of society wherever great books are saying so I'm pretty easy to find out here.

You're very lucky. You have a very unique name. I'm one of several Peter Kings that are out there. I'm competing against the Republican Congressman, the Sports Illustrated writer. I got a lot of competition in my space, but yeah, not too many Shaka singers out there. Shaka, thank you so much brother. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me.

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Sa.