S3E15: Expanding the Narrative for Black Men Featuring Shaka Senghor

Foreign.

Couched in Color.

All the sons of society, all of these young men who are navigating the world through this lens that have left them feeling marginalized, left them feeling left out of society. I get into the emotions of men, you know, what does it mean to be vulnerable as a father? What does it mean to be vulnerable as a person? Partner, you know, I get a chance to talk to my sons about the importance of tears and why it's so important as a dad to ensure that my sons have full access to all of my emotions.

Hi, everyone, this is Dr. Alfie and I'm bringing you Couched in Color. This podcast is designed to elevate conversations about mental health in diverse communities. I appreciate you tuning in. All right, famous, let's dive in. Hi, everyone, it's Dr. Alfie here. Welcome back to Couched in Color with Dr. Alfie, where, you know, we talk about all things mental health with a particular focus on intersectional communities, communities of color. It is an honor for me to have my guest here today. I'm so pleased that we were able to do this and connect. I met this guest through Charlemagne at an event.

Oh, boy.

On the. I've been taught it's not the criminal justice system, it's called the criminal punishment system. That's one of the things I learned from this panel that my guest and I were on together. And he is extremely well known. He's an activist. He is very clear about mental health, very grounded and centered, speak spirit and being and just his presence just at the event that we were at. He doesn't know this, but I'm going to tell him the event that we were at. He really just kind of just helped me have peace, like that whole time because he was just so kind and warm and just so thoughtful and such a deep thinker. So I want to introduce my guest and then I want my guest to introduce himself to all of you, all of my viewers, and all of my listeners on the Cowston Color podcast. And this is such an honor to present Mr. Shaka Senghor. Sir, would you please introduce yourself to the peoples who don't know you because they've been living under a rock.

Oh, man, that's such an incredible opportunity and a task all at the same time. But first of all, truly honored to be here and to really dive into this conversation. As you mentioned, my name is Shaka Senghor. I am a two time bestselling author. One of my great passions is writing about real lived experiences. You know, I grew up in the city of Detroit, hence the always present Detroit hat I rep the city. But I also grew up in another community that we don't often talk about as community, and that is the community of prison, where I spent 19 years of my life. Seven of those years was in solitary confinement. And it was in that environment that, you know, the reality of what we're faced with when we're talking about mental health became very present to me as a young kid going into that environment and coming out of that as a young man. So in addition to my writing, I'm a producer. I am also a tech executive, one of the few tech executives that have my background and my experience. But I'm truly honored to be in a role where I can help other people gain access to a new industry.

Well, thank you so much for that. And what I would love to hear a little bit about more is let's talk about these two books. Let's start there. Tell me what was the. Tell us the titles of both books so people can hear them clearly. And then if you would just walk us through for each book, how did you come to the place of writing about those specific topics? So maybe it's like the title of the book, a brief synopsis. And then, you know, for each one of those books, tell us how you came about of that process to write those, and why was it important to put that information out there?

Thank you so much for asking about that. Writing is truly a passion of mine, you know, and it's a passion that developed while I was in solitary confinement, where I originally started writing fiction. A lot of people don't know that about me, so I'm letting you in on one of my little secrets. But I actually started off writing detective stories, and I wanted to write about characters that were different from who I was. And, you know, that represented a different part of our experience. And those books got published while I was incarcerated. I started a company, published them from prison, got sued by the Department of Corrections for the cost of my incarceration. They actually thought that I had fell into tons of money. They didn't realize I started my own company. And what happened was there were colleges that started to pick my work up before I got released from prison. And so when I got out In June of 2010, by September, I was already doing speaking engagements around my books.

And.

And what would happen was people would always say to me, and they had the best of intentions. You don't sound like someone who's been incarcerated. And that troubled my spirit because I thought about the incredible man who Raised me while I was in prison. The incredible mentors that I had, incredible friends who some are still in prison and who I'm still in contact with today. And I said, you know, I need to tell our story, and I need to help people understand how so many young people end up in prison. And so I decided to write what became my first New York Times bestseller, Righting My Wrongs, Life, Death, Redemption in American Prison, because I wanted to tell the truth. You know, I was tired of seeing us, you know, splashed across the news as the latest headline of dysfunction in our communities. And I wanted to speak to the things that lead so many of us down that path. And so I embarked on this journey to tell my story and to write about my life and my life experiences and to really talk about PTSD in a way people hadn't seen before prior to shooting and tragically causing the death of David, the man whose life I'm responsible for taking in, which led me to prison. I myself was shot when I was 17 years old multiple times, and had dealt with high levels of gun violence Since I was 14 years old, with my childhood friend being murdered, two of my brothers being shot, one of my brothers been shot twice and paralyzed. And I wanted to speak to those truths, not to make an excuse for the decision I made that night, but to help people really understand what is happening in our communities when we see so many acts of gun violence. And the second book, my most recent book, which came out in January and is now a Porchlight bestseller many times over, is a book called Letters to the Sons of A Dad's Invitation to Love, Hope, and Redemption. And the reason that I wrote that particular book, because I'm raising two sons in America. I'm raising one son. I have an adult son who's now raising himself. But I had these two dramatically different experiences as a dad. And what I realized is that between the two worlds of my oldest son, Jay, who is now 30, and. And my youngest son, Seu, who is now 10, is all the sons of society. All of these young men who are navigating the world through this lens that have left them feeling marginalized, left them feeling left out of society. And it's really speaking to people as a whole. The focus is my sons, but the lessons in it is so powerful. I get into the emotions of men. You know, what does it mean to be vulnerable? And as a father, what does it mean to be vulnerable? As a partner, you know, I get a chance to talk to my sons about the importance of tears and why it's so important as a dad to ensure that my sons have full access to all of my emotions. And it's been such a godsend. I mean, I've had some of the most incredible conversations around these two bodies of work, and in all the things that I've done is some of the work that I'm most proud of.

I'm a little speechless because the level of transparency, the level of accountability, the level of reflection and thoughtfulness that you express just in describing the books that you wrote is refreshing. And it's so important. And part of why I feel like it's so important is. And you can tell me how you feel about this, how we educate and rear and support black men in showing that kind of vulnerability, in talking about mistakes that they've made and grown from, in having this arc from. We've all done things that, you know, probably would make us cringe that we did them. Do you know what I mean? Or that make us reflect or that make us think about, why did I do that and why? What could I have done? Everybody's done something. And so what is it you think about your journey? All of that, to me, is behavioral health. Like, this idea that I can say and I can acknowledge I did this thing, whatever that thing is, and at the same time, that does not think. I've heard you say this before. That doesn't frame everything about my life. Right. There's the old saying, like, we're all better than the worst thing we've ever done. Do you know what I mean? So for you, what is it that happens with brothers? I'm just gonna stick with the black men. What is it that happens with brothers, in your mind, that impacts our brothers so deeply that it becomes more and more difficult to express themselves the way that you just did? I was responsible for X. It made me think of Y. You know, the context was this. And as an outgrowth of all of that, I decided to do this, that, and the third. You know what I mean? Like, what happens to our brothers? And. And what did you do to help you to, I don't know, overcome some of those challenges?

Yeah. So I'll start with the last part, and then I'll come back to the first part. You know, the things that I did were really a result of just having incredible mentors. There was these group of, what I call my OGs. These are the older brothers who are. You know, some of them are serving life sentences. Some of them have been in prison for over four decades. Some of them have come home after Nearly five decades. And these men saw something in me that was redeemable. And they led me to books. And I remember them first giving me Donald Goins, these gritty, very, you know, street oriented books, because that's where I was at the time. And what they knew that I didn't know is that those books would run out. And when those books ran out, they gave me Malcolm X's autobiography. And I remember reading that book. And now in the reimagination of history, people tend to only focus on Malcolm X as, you know, a human rights advocate, a civil rights advocate. But he was so much more to me than that. He was an intellectual. He was an organic intellectual. He was curious about the world. He was examining the deep psyche of black people in America. And so when I began to examine my own psyche, it came as a result of reading books that Malcolm was reading. He was one of the most informed people in the world. He was reading everything. He got into philosophy. And so that philosophy challenged me to think about myself. In one line in particular, I was reading Socrates Apology, and he said, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And I began to examine my life and I began to ask myself these questions of like, man, how did I go from this kid who wanted to be a doctor to sitting in prison? And once I was able to be honest with myself and to be able to reassign responsibility to those who had caused me harm, accept responsibility for the harm that I caused, life began to look totally different for me. What I'll say is the reason that it's been so hard for brothers to vocalize how they feel is because there's a narrative that's been created about who we are. If you think about the heroes in black culture currently as it exists, they exist in the world of entertainment. They exist in the world of athletics. If there's a social issue that we are faced with, the first thing people ask is, what does LeBron think about it? Or what does Jay Z have to say about it? And not that that's a bad thing, but it's a problem when it's the only thing. There are so many more of us who are much more informed on issues at the root of those issues than anybody else. But there's another thing that's happening that's not being talked about. When we talk about the emotional capacity of men in general and black men specifically, what's often missed is the reason why it's so hard for us to emotionally connect. And I want you to just kind of think about this with me, right? So I'm fortunate to have an incredible fiance. I got engaged in June. It's one of the greatest experiences that I've had. And what makes the experience great is because I know that I'm emotionally available and that I'm emotionally intentional about the kind of connection that I want. But that hasn't been always the case. And the reason it hasn't always been the case because from a very early age, everybody that I said that I loved or I cared about was taken away from me in some capacity. My first childhood friend was murdered when I was 14 years old. There was no mental health outlet to process that. And so over the course of the years, I can't even tell you how many of my friends have been killed, have been thrown into prison for life sentences. And so when you ask the average brother, you know, how many of your friends have been murdered before you turn 21 years old, how many of them have been carted away to prison? And so if you think about all the things that we're constantly losing, it's hard to be in a space of committing when you're afraid that what you commit to can be taken away. And so because there's this singular narrative about the black man as being tough, the black man as being emotionally unavailable, what happens is we stop there. We don't ask why. You know, we don't ask why are we hurting? Why are we suffocating and killing ourselves? And because we can't open up and we can't talk about what ails us, we can't even talk about fully about joy. You know, there was a hashtag not too long ago about black men frolicking. And I loved it because our joy really matters. And it's so important to wake up and feel like, a sense of joy without having to be guarded. And unfortunately, we just don't live in a culture where that's currently acceptable. So when I began to write, for me, it wasn't about changing the narrative, right? Because some of the narratives that exist are true. There are absentee fathers. But there's also another narrative that the CDC says we're the most present fathers of any father in the world that we don't talk about. So here, let me expand that narrative, right? There is a narrative about what's happening within hip hop culture where, you know, these young brothers are getting murdered almost, it seems, on a weekly basis, right? But there's also a narrative that, you know, colleges are full of brilliant young black boys who are figuring out how to change the world. And so for me, it's really about expanding the narrative to include all of those conversations. And it starts with how we feel. You know, do we feel worthy? Do we feel good? Do we feel like we're adding value beyond our ability to provide and protect? You know, do we feel like nurturers? Do we feel like lovers? You know, in the deepest, truest sense of what it means to be a lover? Do we feel available for intimacy? And, like, what does intimacy actually mean for us? Beyond physical intimacy? And so for me, it's just about expanding that narrative and really bringing out those things that we just don't talk about when it comes to us.

Wow, that's the mic drop. Every time you speak, it's like, mic drop. Seriously. Because there's so much there. There's so much that I think we fail to talk about and we fail to embrace about what black men's experience is. And there's so much you gave me to think about. I was thinking about this hashtag. The one thing that you said, of the many things that you said, that jumped out at me immediately, because it's really relevant for something I've saw on social media recently, and that is black men's value beyond, you know, what they can produce and protect. You know what I'm saying? Like, what are you producing and who are you protecting? Like, there's something valuable about black men that's important, but outside of that, right? Like, you're worthy. Just like you said to use your words, you're worthy because you here. Like, that's enough. You're just worthy because you exist. And so I was thinking about this. I saw it on Twitter. I ain't gonna call no names. And when I mention it, anybody who knows anything about black pop culture and black Twitter, they gonna know exactly what I'm talking about. But it was about a super producer and a rapper. Female rapper, male super producer. And all people were talking about. Yeah, she came up because that's her sugar daddy and she the sugar baby. And I'm just like, get you a man. You know, all the. This is a lot of sisters. Like, get you a man who can, you know, buy you this. I'm not gonna say the car, because when I say the car, everybody I know, I'm talking about, I'm gonna make it up. Who can buy you this Rolls Royce, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's a man. And I'm like, what? You know what I'm saying? So I understand. I do. Like, I'm not gonna be like an old head. Like, I'm Gen X, so I know I'm an og. I'm not gonna be an old head and be like, that's ridiculous. Cause I'm sure there was a time in my life when that felt like that's what a man does. You know what I'm saying? And to your point, I just thought about what does that say to brothers if they don't have money to buy a woman a Rolls Royce? Do you know what I mean? Like, should they be made to feel less valuable? Should that be the only standard of what brothers are? And I know that's not the only narrative, but it's one that's so prevalent and I feel like it's so hard to overcome that hurdle because everything that our brothers are flooded with is all about what can you produce. I remember I was having a conversation with a teenager about this concept. I'm just going to be honest about my biases of a push present. So when the sister is pregnant, the brother buys her a gift for carrying and producing and bringing the baby into the world. And I was like, but the gift is the baby. Do you know what I'm saying? So, like, the gift is that she sacrificed her body to carry this human and she produced like, so you don't need to buy her anything. What you can give her is your presence at them prenatal visits. Do you know what I'm saying? Is making sure that she's healthy and okay is taking care of yourself. So going back to your point as well, about the narratives in the media and that whole. I remember when that research came out about brothers being non custodial parents, but being the single most present group of all ethnic groups of men, even when they don't live and are not partnered with the mother of the children. And how powerful that was for me. I have a board member for my nonprofit. Her name is Dr. Shawna Cooper, and she does a lot of work around black men and parenting. And so everything that you shared is so important and it's so beautiful to me that you have that kind of knowledge and you've taken the time to gain that kind of knowledge so that every time you speak, you yourself have an opportunity to change the narrative. And so I'm really curious about when you do speak, how do you find? Let's stick with the, like the young brothers. Like, I'm just going to say, anybody under 40, how do young brothers receive the, you know, the word. And people are young too. But I'm just going to say the young young, like under 40. How do they receive it? And what kinds of responses do you get when you speak to young men? The same way you just spoke to me about what the narrative is out there, what the limitations are that are placed on you in your own story of this arc of, you know, going from having challenges, being traumatized, to doing things you weren't so proud of, to redemption, like the, the work that you do to rear your 10 year old and to be vulnerable and open to your fiance. Congratulations, by the way, because I'm here for the black love. All day. All day. But how do brothers receive that?

You know, it's really interesting, you know, in our culture, so much of our culture is entertainment driven and sometimes it can be hard to penetrate culture on a massive level. But what I found is that these young brothers, they love me. I'm they real og, right? And I'm. And I'm big bro and I'm unc and I'm old head and all the things. And I love them. I love them because I know what it looks like when you have someone with wisdom to love you, you know, and the brothers who raised me in prison, I love those brothers, you know, because they saw value in me. And what I found is that even in my approach to brothers, right, I always, you know, when I see him, hey, what's going on, little bro? You know, I never hit them with the N word, right? And not that I'm like a word police or anything, I just know psychologically that when I hit them with little brother, they respond differently and they open up, you know, and they want that affirming hug and they want that dap. And you know, we got all the conversations in the things, but also know I have a cheat code. And my cheat code is that I've actually lived the stuff that most of these cats are rapping about. And so because I can walk into a space as an authentic survivor, you know, because I'm a survivor, like it's not a glory thing. This is, this was survival. What I went through, I would never wish on any of these brothers. And I can tell you, because of the way the culture is set up, most of these brothers will not survive what I've went through. Like this not designed for you to survive. Like, I am not supposed to be having this highly intellectual conversation with you in this moment because the system was designed to cripple my mind, to cripple my spirit, to cripple me emotionally. And fortunately, I had the blessing of one being literate to being literate. That changed the game for me because I was able to read those books that those brothers provided. And then I was fortunate to have brothers who I can debate with. Like, we had intense debates. I mean, heated debates, knock down dragon, drag them out, debates without it turning into a physical altercation. Right now, within our culture, there is so much sensitivity to what's said. Nobody wants to be corrected. Nobody wants to be held accountable. Nobody wants to be spoken to in a manner that challenges your idea of what it means to be a man. You know, like, I don't have anybody in my circle as friends who can't challenge me. Like, the moment you can't challenge me as a man, you can't hold me accountable, then we're not operating in authenticity. And so what the young brothers see is that I live what I talk about. You know, I don't just hop on social media when it's convenient to retweet, repost, and act like I'm conscious and aware. Like, I'm in these trenches for real. I still go into prisons to this day, and it's the hardest thing to do. You know, the triggering effects of the smell of that environment, the claustrophobic feeling, the antagonism of a system that doesn't want me to come in as a bearer of truth. Like, I have to penetrate that every time that I go inside a prison. But I know it's my responsibility, and it's an honor. Like, I love fellowshipping with my brothers inside. Like, it's nothing like it. Because there's a language, there's an experience that we have that is shared that nobody out here can ever understand. And so what I think the young brothers get is, like, you know, this brother talks our language. He comes from where we come from, but he's challenging us, and he's actually doing it while winning because that's important. Like, you know, sadly, brother's not trying to hear none if you don't have proof of concept, you know, or at least the look of proof of concept. And so, sadly, there's a lot of people that look like they really handling business and the reality that business is handling them. And so they disrupt this organic trust that can be being developed when it comes to the young brothers, you know? And so I'm always figuring out, okay, how do I hack the culture in a way that, you know, listen, not trying to be popular. I'm 50 years old, right? I have lived multiple lives in multiple spaces. What I am trying to do is uphold my end of the bargain with my ancestors, with my OGs with my brothers who are incarcerated. That said, if I was given this opportunity, that I'mma tell the truth about us, and I'mma get that truth out in a way that can transform how we think about ourselves, what we see as possible for ourselves. Again, according to them, I'm not supposed to be here. And I can tell you, and this is not. This is not bragging, this, just keeping it 100 with you, right? What I've accomplished in the world of tech, in the creative space, in the social impact space, in the writing space, is unparalleled, coming from where I come from. And it's important for young people to see, like, your circumstances, they are what they are, but the decisions you make in relation to them, like, that's the game changer. And that's, for me, that's always been a game changer. So the young brothers, they resonate with that. Like, look, let's get it. You talking about hustling, get up and go, make it happen. But you also gotta hustle to love yourself. Like, that's a different type of hustle. You got to show up and put that work in to love yourself. Because then when you know your value, you stop being boxed in by other people's ideas of what you can't do. When the world opens up and you feel like, look, anything is possible, like my man Kevin Garnett say, anything is possible. And I truly live my life because that's what I believe.

I love that. I love that. Give us some guidance on what a process looks like to develop that kind of love for yourself. What does that look like? Because people hear it a lot. And I have a big thing about. I don't always just want to tell people what they should do or what I think they should do, because I'm an interpoint. That's my opinion, right? So I always tell people, you don't have to do what I say. You. You know, my mom, God rest her soul, rest in power, mama, she used to say, you take what I give you. My family's from the South. And she'd be like, baby, you take it with a grain of salt. You keep what you can. Throw the rest over your shoulder, like, for good luck. That was her thing. And so she's like, you know, you'll have to sift through it. And so what I try to share with people is not just, here are things that I think you can work toward, but here is how you can work toward those things. Here are things that I've done. Here are things I encourage my patients to do in the past. Here are things that people have taught me. I learned so much. I learned from you when we sat together at the UJC Team Rock event, right? So I'm always trying to have an open ear to learn and receive information from people because I know it's going to help me. So in that vein, in that spirit, what would you say are some things that people can do? And maybe not everything works for everybody, but let's give them some ideas about what do we do, brothers especially, because there's something unique about that experience. But I think anybody can benefit from it. What can young men do to develop that kind of love for themselves? What does that look like? How do you do that? How do you get there?

That's a great question. And there's three things that come immediately to mind when I think about my own journey, right. One of the greatest gifts I've ever given myself is journaling. And it started with an essential question of how did I get here? And I began to write through all the trauma I experienced, and I was able to reassign responsibility. You know, here's the things that I'm responsible for. Here's the thing my mother is responsible for. Here's the thing that the person who shot me is responsible for. Here's the thing that the person who robbed me, here's the thing that the person who beat me. And I began to reassign that responsibility. I began to own the things that I was responsible for and acknowledge how I harmed other people. And I was able to do that through journaling. And I can tell you it's one of the most powerful, raw, you know, emotionally shattering experiences that I've ever experienced, because it just opened me up. And I discovered this little magical being that had been covered up with all of these traumas that had nothing to do with who I was at my essence. So that journaling is one. The second thing was meditation. I say meditate to get it straight, you know, and this is a process, and it's a hard. It's not an easy thing. And I began the process of meditation, and it was horrifying, you know, to sit with your thoughts in an honest way and to let them thoughts just be. Oh, my God. It was like a horror show going on up there. But the more I practice it, the more I began to filter the. Them unhealthy, them toxic thoughts out when they pop up, and they'll be like, oh, that's not me, that's my mother. Or oh, that's not Me, that's this person down the street. And I start to identify the things that were me, you know, and then the third thing I would say is, like, them personal affirmations. You know, one of the things that I love about hip hop, like, and again, I'm. I'm as old as hip hop is old, right? So hip hop is celebrating 50 years next year. I just turned 50. So I grew up with hip hop. And one of the things that I've always loved about it more than any other genre is the aspirational, affirming aspect of what it is, right? Them brothers and sisters talk into existence, the things that they desire. You know, they talk that into existence. You know, before guys actually had the Benzes and Bentleys and rose, they was talking about it. They didn't even have great deals back then, right? But it's so, you know, affirming to think of, like, hey, I can do this thing. I can actually make this thing happen, right? And so for me, my affirmations are rooted in gratitude. You know, just waking up and being like, okay, what am I really thankful for? You know, I actually have clean socks today. I actually have toothpaste. I actually have running water. And just stopping at that and being grateful for those things, right? And then when I am, you know, affirming myself, I do affirmation with my son every night. Every night before bed, we do affirmations. And we've been doing this for almost 10 years now. And I realized in affirming him, I'm actually affirming myself.

And.

And I'll say this. I'll say this last thing. This is so interesting about our culture. I can say to you, Dr. Alfie, you are the most amazing, incredible, stunning, beautiful, thought provoking, you know, charismatic, accomplished person in the world. And if somebody watched me celebrate you like that, they'd be like, oh, that brother. That's just a dope brother. Right? If I stood in front of people and said those things about myself, they'll be like, how arrogant. How egotistical. And so our culture confuses us sometimes, and it stops us from being honest about who we are. A person could come up and say, you know, you rocking that purple. And our reaction to be like, oh, this little thing, we downplay it, right?

Yes.

And that hit me one day. I'm talking to my sister. This is a sister of mine. I have tons of sisters. Biological, non biological. I was talking to my sister Felicia, and I complimented her on something she was wearing. I was like, man, like, I'm like, that dress that's fire today. She was like, yeah, I know. And I was like, damn, that's actually dope. Like, she wasn't. And she like, yeah, I know. Of course it is. Like, I knew it when I picked it out. I'm like, that's the energy. We owe that to ourselves. Like, America has beat us down. America has dogged us. America has traumatized us. America has left us believing that we can only succeed in the realm of sports and entertainment. And so we owe that to ourselves, you know, to affirm who we are. And so those are kind of like my three things that I'm like, meditation, journaling, affirmation, game changers.

I receive it. That is what I have learned to say. I receive it because the receipt of it is my acknowledgement that the universe put it out there to bring me joy and to uplift me and to give me just something to hold onto. That's good, right? And as everything that you said, when you exist in a society that is consistently telling you that everything about you is bad, down to the point of not only is it bad, but it's your fault. So one of the things I always say for us as black people is stop saying that something happened to somebody because they're black. Because whose fault is that if it's because I'm black? What is that word that comes after Because? Because, right? Whatever that word is, after is the object. Because I am black, I can't change being black. You understand what I'm saying? So it's not because I'm black. It's because the other person's racist. Think about how that frees you up. If you acknowledge that lack of a promotion. The ridiculous disparities in incarceration rates for black men and Latino men and black women and Latinas, right? The unsolved murders and kidnappings of Native American women, like the anti Asian hate. It's not because we are black, Native, Asian, Latino, Latinate. It's because other people are racist. You understand what I'm saying? And we even say it, right? So I tell people, never again in your life say that something happened because of something about you. You say that that discriminatory thing happened because of something about that other person, because they can make a choice to change, but you can't change who you are. So that piece of it is the way that we speak over ourselves. And I have learned this idea of just. I receive it. Now I want to start doing what Sister Felicia did when she was like, I know, child. I would love to get there. Like, okay, thank you. Thank you. You know what I'm saying? I know. It's just the idea that giving ourselves permission. And I'm going to tell you, when you were speaking about hip hop, I'm with you. I'm a little bit older than you and the. So I grew up with hip hop, too. And I'm gonna tell you the single greatest line to me in the history of rap. It's like every time I hear it, I just go off. So forget Oreos. Eat Cool J cookies. I'm bad, man. Listen, when you so bad that the cookies need to be named after you instead of the Oreos, like, you don't get any more affirming than that. So I'm with you on that. It's the. And that's why I love hip hop so much, because there's so much of it. I even think about Megan thee stallion. All she talk about is, I'm fly and you want to get with me. Do you know what I mean? That is some stuff I don't really love, but everything is really about pouring into myself. And she's a chocolate girl, right? So when we can do that, and you know, we that generation, I ain't seen a whole bunch of chocolate girls, like, in the media being uplifted is beautiful. When we were young, the first one I really, really remember was, like, Naomi Campbell, and she's deep chocolate. And I'm like, okay, if she's beautiful, I'm beautiful. But everything that you're saying about the places we can go to get the affirmation, we can find affirmations and use those for ourselves. The journaling to help you really reflect and the meditation. I'm with you on two out of three journaling. I'm up and down like I do. I hop in and out. But that meditation and that affirmation, I just let it exercise with my team earlier today in the team meeting, and the first thing that we did was practice a guided meditation just to start the meeting. And you know what I didn't say to them, but what I say when I speak publicly is that always gives me an opportunity to settle. When I start anything with a meditation and a reflection, I can settle, and then I can show up as my best self. So I just want to appreciate you for giving us that wisdom and that guidance. And I think rounding the curve toward the latter half of this discussion or the latter part of this discussion, what I would love to hear a little bit more about is to uplift you and, like, just celebrate these successes you've had in these different spaces. So we heard about the books, right. We know you're a phenomenal public speaker. You do loads of speaking engagements. We know that you're a phenomenal writer. Can you talk? Would you be willing to share a little bit with us about, like, the tech space and other aspects of creativity that you're engaged in and what kind of. We want to celebrate it. What kind of success have you seen in these other realms?

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I'm always excited to really just kind of talk about the worlds that I've explored since I got out. You know, I. I've always been a curious kid. You know, when I was a kid and I would get in trouble and get on punishment, like, my mother didn't play that. You're going to just be sitting up in there watching tv. Right. And so I began to read the encyclopedia. I. I know some of the most random things because I just would read the encyclopedia as a kid, but it made me really curious about life. And so when I walked out of prison, you know, shortly after I got home, I knew I had a responsibility first to mentor in our community. And I won my first award, literally about a year after I got out, for my leadership in our community. And then I ended up getting a fellowship to MIT Media Lab. And so imagine, if you will, I'm almost two years out of prison and I'm in Cambridge at one of the most esteemed universities as a fellow. And I maintained that fellowship for about three years. So I was able to add, you know, to some of the innovation that was taking place there. Went on to become, you know, a TED speaker, one of the top ted speakers of 2014. I became a Kellogg Fellow.

Yes.

I taught at the University of Michigan, a class that I actually co created and which is still being taught to this day by another system impacted brother who was in prison, and now he's teaching this class and I do a lecture there once a semester. And then, you know, again being successful with the books. But I'm also creative. I'm on Nas's last mainstream album, Grammy nominated King's disease 2. I got a chance to do a song with Nas and Hit Boy. I executive produced a film called God Said Give Him Drum Machines. We're out on the festival circuit right now, actually. My team is over in London and Greece. They're, you know, touring the film. We did Tribeca here in New York, we did Detroit. There's a show on A and E right now called 60 Days In. I'm One of the producers on that. Yeah, I'm one of that. I'm one of the producers on this season. I also produced a show with Oprah called Release. And in the world of tech, I joined this company who originally was a client of mine. So I had multiple tech companies as clients to help them figure out their company culture. I originally joined as the head of dei and you know, honestly that's because it's all my work in the social impact, but it really wasn't what I was interested in. I felt like I'm much more interested and the CEO saw way more value in me as the current head of sales and success culture. And so I'm able to train and partner with our chief revenue officer and train our sales team on how to story tell when they're selling. I'm currently working with our marketing team on our new brand rollout. And just to give some context, this just like to brag a little bit because I think that's important.

Yeah, yeah, come on with it.

So our company, we are travel and expense business, corporate travel and expense and personal travel. Right, got it. And we were a rocket ship out the gate. You know, we're growing incrementally and then co hit, right? And nobody's traveling. Airports empty. We went to zero revenue. In 20 months, we went from zero revenue to over $7 billion valuation. Our valuation is still growing. We currently have over 10,000 customers and clients. And I mean corporate customers, right? Like Unilever and Heineken and CAA and Netflix. And so I'm able to work with this incredible team. I'm able to help build out that culture. I'm able to help our team win at the highest level of startups. Like we're a unicorn startup and soon everybody will be using our product. And so, you know, those things right there like that I be hyping myself up so much, I'd be like, yo, bro, you really doing it right?

Yes, yes.

And what I love about that space more than anything is not about my past. It's about my intelligence, it's about my strategic thinking, it's about my creativity. It's about my ability to collaborate with people, to work in partnership with teams, to offer insights that come from the many worlds that I navigate, and to bring an element of coolness to the company, which we always joking about. I originally told him I wanted my title to be head of Dopesit. Okay. Issa Rae, Truly, what I told them, they was like, we can consider that. But I say that to say what I'm most impressed about myself with is that I'm able to use my mind in most of the things that I do. One of the things people don't know about me as a writer, one, I'm self taught. I didn't go to any writing programs. I literally taught myself how to write because I read over 1500 books while I was incarcerated. And another thing people don't know is that I started off self published and I hustled them books out of the trunk of my car until I hustled one of those books into Oprah's hands. And then that was a game changer. And like now Oprah and I are friends, so that's probably like one of my biggest accomplishments. But it's really about belief. It's about setting your intentions and it's about celebrating the small wins. Like, I always go back to my first book I ever sold, like hand to hand the first day I walked out of prison into the parole office parking lot. I sold my first book June 22, 2010. And I've been selling books every day since then. And so, you know, that's just some. That's manifestation. It's intentional is, you know, positive thinking attracting that energy, you know. So I told you about all the wins, right? I've lost way more than I've won, you know, I've lost way more than I've won. I've been told no more times than you can even imagine. I mean, I've been told no bad podcasts, I've been told no by publishers. I've been told no by lily institutions. You know, I'm still discriminated against. There's things I still deal with every day, you know, but what I say is that I see those things as obstacles. I don't see them as like impediments. They're inconveniences, they're things that I have to navigate around. They've made me tougher, they made me more intentional about how I show up in the world. They made me a true advocate for people coming out of systems. It's something I'll always do no matter what other work that I'm doing. But I just say that because I don't want people to think that any of this has been easy. You know, I've been writing for since 2020, you know, so it's 23 years of taking myself serious as a writer. I've been writing longer than that. It wasn't an overnight thing. You know, I had to hustle like nobody's business. I'm still hustling to this day. But I just say, like, continue to show up for yourself. Know that you worthy, and if you do that, like, you'll start producing those outcomes. And you got to celebrate the small things. It's good to look at that big picture, is good to have these crazy dreams of the big house, the car, to all the things, like, yeah, dream that stuff up. But also understand, like, those moments mean so much, you know, Like, I never forget Prince Montgomery, who I sold that first book to. You know, every year in June, I celebrate that moment with him because he was the first person that I personally met who believed in me enough to give. And just get this context, this guy was just walking out of prison, too. You know, he didn't have no money. He had maybe $75, and he gave me 20 of that for my book, you know, and so that moment is something I always cherish because what it told me is that, you know, if I can sell a book to a person who is just getting back to life, who doesn't have much, I can sell a book to anybody, you know, so celebrate those small wins because they'll lead to the big victories.

That is phenomenal. And it is an incredible way to wind down this edition of the podcast. And when you say that about you remembered the man's name, who you sold that book to and where that man was coming from, that's so powerful because you do have to remember that. You do have to, like, give thanks for that opportunity, because each of those smaller opportunities keeps propelling you towards, you know, these big dreams. And, you know, at some point in your life, you had a dream to publish and sell those books, and that person gave you the opportunity to fulfill a dream. And it just made me think of, I do not know, this young brother's last name. There's a little white autistic boy who was the first person. It chokes me up when I think about it, to ask me for my autograph. And it happened on my mother's birthday, July 17, 2021. And I will never forget Landon. I will never forget that child. Because of all the people, like you said, the person who bought your book was a person who was coming out of incarceration. Like you had come out of incarceration for a little autistic boy, right? Somebody who's in that behavioral health space as a recipient of. Care to be the first person to ever say, I see something in you. And I remember before, because his dad was like, ma', am, if you could please, you know, I'M friendly, so I was gonna stop anyway, but he would be like, if you could please just sign my son's hat. He has been standing out here waiting for you for 45 minutes because he wanted your autograph. And I just thought, my autograph? And so I signed it. And he was like, thank you, thank you, thank you, both him and his dad. And I walked away, and I just felt. I don't know, I felt like 10ft taller because I thought of all the people. That's pure. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's pure. There's no pretense with this child. So I get it. I get it. And it is so important and valuable. So I'm just so moved and uplifted, just like I was when we met originally from talking to you. And I think the last thing I want to do is just give you the last word and ask you to share with us any affirmation or anything that you use to motivate you as a way to close this out and take us out. And right before I do that, I just want to thank you so deeply for, like you said, being, you know, chief of Dope shit right here on this podcast and giving me the opportunity to share space with you and hold space for you, with you for this time. So I just appreciate you so deeply, and if you would give us whatever that affirming word is, I think we would all be so grateful.

Thank you so much for that, sir. So can I attach a little short story to it? Right, yeah.

Yes, of course.

So this affirming word is the words that is on the song that I have with Nas called Composer. And what it says is, I'm actually reading from my wall says, keep your composure. Believe in the magic of who we are, because what you believe is everything, and what someone believes about you is nothing. And when you listen to the song, it's really about what do we believe about us? What are the stories we tell ourselves? How do we hold it together when the world is pulling us apart? And I share that particular piece because I met Nas before I ever met Nas. On Nas's first album, Illmatic, he wrote this song called One Love, and it's a letter to a friend who was incarcerated. And I felt like he was writing to me. And years later, I mean, many, many years later, I got a chance to tell Nas what that song meant to me. At one of the darkest moments of my life, one of the toughest times, I was at Michigan Reformatory, also known as Gladiator School. And I got a chance to tell him that. And what I told him was that not only did the song, like, really resonate with me, it inspired me to go get the worst tattoo I've ever got. Because at this time, tattoos weren't great in prison. And so I had this guy tattoo illmatic on my arm, and then I just was like, yeah, throw a dog in there biting through a chain. And it turned out to be the worst tattoo. It looked like a bear trying to shape something. But it's the most important tattoo I've ever had because that song gave me wings at a time when I needed so to come full circle. And Nas reached out to me, and he asked me to write a piece for his song. And I remember writing it, and I remember him coming back to me and saying, it's poetry. And so to get that affirmation from one of the greatest poets in American history was the most affirming thing. And so those words from that song mean so much more than just a song. It's actually the mantra that I dropped my son off to school with now. So I have a theme song that I can listen to and he can listen to, and he's like, dad, you know, I'm keep my composure. No matter what happens today, I'm gonna hold it down. I'm gonna hold it tight. I'm gonna hold it close. And, you know, I believe in the magic of who I am, because what somebody else says about me means nothing. And, like, that's what I drop him off the school to, and then once he's out the car, then I turn up to, like, money bag, yo, cuz. I'm like, turn up. Let me throw this GZ on to get through this traffic and get back home. But that song really means so much. And I promise you, if you're going through a tough time, the words in that song that I'm dropping is going to become your mantra. So I just say, keep your composer. Hold it down. Believe in the magic of who we are, because someone. What somebody else believe about us is nothing. You know, we continue to show up, and we continue to show out. So thank you so much for having me. It's such a joy. You're such a light in this world, and I recognize that immediately when we met your family, your husband, they're so lucky to have you, and I'm sure you're lucky to have them. Continue. Blessings to all in your sphere of influence and look forward to more conversations together.

I receive it. Thank you for tuning in to Couched in color. You can check out more episodes on YouTube, Apple, Spotify and your favorite podcast apps. Check out the show notes for any websites linked to this episode, including where to connect with us on social media. I appreciate you tuning in. Remember to like subscribe and turn on your notifications so you'll be updated updated of each episode released. And Visit me@dralfie.com for all podcast updates as well. As always, I want to wish you lots of love and light and I hope that they are always informed by good culturally relevant science.