Shaka Senghor Says Kim Kardashian's A Beast For Prison Reform Work, Talks Being On Nas' Album + More

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It's power. 105.1 New York Hip Hop and R B. My brother is in the building today. Shaka Single New York Times best selling author.

What's up sis? How are you?

Hi Shaka.

So good to see you.

It's so good to see you.

It's been so long. It's crazy.

It's been a long time. I feel like the last time you were. It wasn't the last book. It was in between books. You came.

Yeah, we was here for a program I was producing with Oprah called Released.

I love the way you just, you.

Know, gotta, gotta, gotta.

You should say that.

Gotta put the queen up.

That was when I was here with Oprah, was working on something with Oprah.

Gotta put that up in it.

I want to reset because I think you and I have had a couple of interviews. Some of my like, I love our, I love our talks. I love when you are here. I always, I feel like, I feel you. I learned something from you. There's always like, I think I read the book and I know everything and then you share something and I don't know, we just had a couple of great conversations. But in case you are new to Shaka's world, he has a new book out. It's called Letters to the Sons of Society. And so we're going to talk about this book and why you should read it, why everybody should read it and who should read it. And. But our history is actually mentioned in the book. Briefly.

Yes.

Which I feel so honored to even be mentioned in the book. Number one, because I, I love your writing.

Yeah.

And number two, because I know Oprah is going to read this book.

Yeah. No, I mean she actually read it already. I talked to her the other day. She loved it. Which is a great.

How does that go? Shock. What happens? Tell me how that process goes.

So actually I did an early reading and Gayle was at the reading and I gave her a book. I'm like, can you give this to Oprah? And she gave it to her. And Oprah literally sent me a message that night and was like, these letters are so beautiful. So the book is all. It's a series of letters to Both of my sons. And then we ended up doing a conversation and she really just walked through, like, why the letters are so impactful and why they inspire her to be in conversation with me. But there's a chapter that I wrote that's really a pivotal moment in my life. And it was a big moment. It was, you know, going to the White House after getting out of prison after all these years. And I was on the outside when all these things was happening. And you were the first person I encountered when I got in. And so I write about that experience of getting ready to meet President Obama, and then I didn't meet him. And it was about two years later that I actually met him. So, yeah, I get a chance to.

Talk about all I was telling my assistant, Bertie in the cork. I was saying how we knew each other. Yeah, we were at the White House is when I went to see Obama. So. And Van got emotional about this amazing person that was doing such great work in criminal justice reform. And he couldn't get in because of his felony covers. His felony. So he was literally outside of the White House. Couldn't get in. And while Van is talking about it, he's getting emotional and choked up and watery eyed. And I was so touched by, like. Cause, you know, men, you know, he had been so stoic through the whole interview. And watching him get emotional over how you were being treated, it touched me. You know what I mean? I was touched by that. So then we're in line getting ready to meet Obama. Finally you got in, but I didn't know who you were. We'd never met Shaka standing behind me in the line. And we just, you and I, we were like, getting ready to meet Obama. We're like, hey, how you doing? I'm great. How you doing? We're just making small talk on the line. And then you said, so what was the best part of the. I missed it. So what was the best part? I was like, man, this part. When Van talked about his. This. This guy who's doing this great work in criminal justice, he couldn't get in. And you didn't stop me. You let me keep going about.

I need all the detail. Yeah.

You were just like looking at me. And then. And then we're just standing there. He goes, yeah, that was so. That was. That was me he was talking about. I was like, what? It was such a. It's such a great way to meet somebody. That's how we met. That was like our first.

And we've been vibing, rocking ever since. We've been rocking ever since. It's really been truly a real connection, friends and family, you know. And what's really interesting about what you said, though, is, like, this is what that book speaks to, is this emotional vulnerability that we just don't talk about when it comes to men, and specifically black men.

Yeah.

And, you know, whenever there's moments where we're emotive, it's typically as a result of loss. So, you know, you think about when our icons are killed, or you think about when somebody we love dies. You know, it seems like that's the only time where our tears are allowed. But it can't be in these more complex moments, you know, moments of joy, moments of frustration at a system that would keep a man outside the White House, who's doing all this work to change the system. And so that emotional vulnerability really comes through in the book. And that's why it was so important to have that story in there. And that was a historical moment for me, like, to meet the 45th president, you know, And I actually didn't meet him that day because right as we was getting there, he got whisk away, you know.

You didn't make it in. Cause I made it in.

No, I know. You was. I think you was the last cut.

I got the last photo. That's crazy.

Yeah, I didn't make the cut.

I should have dragged you in with me. We should have went in together.

Sean.

That would have been.

But I ended up meeting him a couple of years later, and it was all love, you know? And so I actually ended up meeting him on two different occasions, which was, you know, bananas when you think about it. And given where I had came from and what he represented at the time, you know, I mean, he was going through his first election. I was going through my first parole board hearing. So there was all these intersections of me reading his book while I'm hoping to get out of prison and it giving me hope. Like, this guy was so audacious. And I'm not even, like, a political cat. Like, I'm Lydia.

I'm just trying to save your life. You're trying to get your life back.

But he is inspiring just to know that he dared to do something that nobody thought possible. And so I had to include that story in a book. And it's just one of many beautiful stories of, like, emotional vulnerability, connectivity, and being aspirational in how I see life.

Yeah. So it's all letters.

Yeah.

To your two sons.

My two sons.

One. Two very different relationships. One you've You've been able to raise post prison, and one you've had a lot of disconnect with. Right. Because he was raised while you were inside, were you able to. And I'm sure we've talked about this, but just for clarity, were you guys able to connect while you, like, was he able to visit you? Did he know you were there? Letters?

Yeah. So the thing that inspired this book was one, I think the narrative about black males and black boys is completely skewed toward this idea that we have to change the narrative. And I don't think that's true. I think we have to expand it, and I think we have to be more inclusive of all aspects of who we are. And the thing that really excites me is that my dad used to write me while I was in prison for 19. He would write these beautiful long letters, handwritten. And actually, the COVID is my dad's handwriting. Handwritten letters from when I was in.

So he's a writer, too. So this is where you get. This is where you get.

Yeah. So it just came very natural for him to communicate. And we were able to grow. We were able to heal a lot of the brokenness in our relationship. And my dad was very emotionally vulnerable in those letters. You know, he talked about the times when he failed. He talked about things he wished he could have did different. He talked about, like, his dream for me and how heartbreaking it was for me to be incarcerated and him having to step up and raise my older son, Jay, who I write about, you know, who I'm writing these letters to. So my oldest son is 30 years old, and my dad would bring him on visits, you know, prisons I was at, all over Michigan. He would sit him down and make sure that he wrote me letters. I wrote him letters, and we talked on the phone. But what happened was I created a narrative about who I was as his dad that turned out to not be true. And the narrative I had created was like, you know, we got the visits, we got the letters. You know, I'm parenting from prison. I'm telling him, hey, don't do this and don't do that, and here's my mistakes. And, you know, there's not enough letters that can fill in those gaps when you're absent for 19 years. Like, it's just not possible. Like, the number of visits I got just wouldn't amount to what it's like to spend a day as a dad when you're present. And so what I. You know, a lot of what I'm doing in this book is really addressing that because there's so many of us that through various means, get taken out of our sons and our daughters lives. And we don't think about the other side of that, of what it's like for a child to have to navigate the world without their parent present or not knowing when their parent will be present. And I really wanted to speak to that in an honest way. And it was hard. You know, it's like, you know, I have an incredible relationship with my youngest son. I mean, I know I'm like a dope dad. Like, I don't even make any apologies about that. I know how dope of a father I am, how present, how emotionally available I am, but also know that I deprived my oldest son of that. And it was one of the most heartbreaking things to have to reconcile. But I think it's important to lead in that way that allow other men to open up about the ways that they fail.

Have you been. Is there hope in healing that? I mean, I know you can't change it, you can't put a magic wand and things could have been different, but is there? I don't know. Do you have peace in that? Like, does he have peace in it? Have you been able to like, just kind of. Does this help? Do the letters help?

I don't know yet. He doesn't want to read it and I'm okay with that. You know, I've made peace with where I'm at in, you know, my role as his father. At this point, like, we're cool. He hits me up, I hit him up. Sometimes he wants to talk, sometime he doesn't. Sometimes we just sit on the phone in silence. And I think that's where the love exists, is in those moments where you can be present with no ego attached. You know, as a dad, I try to do what's considered egoless parenting where I don't think about, you know, outcomes for my children at this point in their lives based on what I want for them. Like, they have to navigate the world. Yeah.

And he's 30.

He's a man.

He's a 30. He's a man.

Yeah, yeah, he's a young man. And my young son is a little boy navigating the world. And so, you know, I've always, always hoped for healing. Like, that was my biggest dream. Coming home was like, to have this beautiful relationship with my son. You know, he was 19 when I came home and, you know, I was mentoring all these young guys in prison. And so I'm like, I Can't wait to come home and put my son up on game and we gonna ride off to the sunset and we're gonna do all these things. But I never asked him did he want to sign up for that. And so it created this tension that I had to own and I had to be, you know, responsible for. I came home as a mentor and not as a father. And so I've grown and evolved to understand now holding space, you know, and that space is silent. It's all good. Cause that's what he need. I just have to be present. So that's where I'm at with it.

Oh, I know the letters are good. Yeah, I know the letters are good. That's one of the things, it's the first things you learned. Like when I was dipping my toe and learning about criminal justice reform and what needed to happen and what were the, you know, the repercussions of the system that we have now. And it's aside from the individual that is living, you know, there's so many people in prison right now that shouldn't be aside from them is the family right? This is the big, this is, this is the big discussion about how it affects the family and the kids and the sons that are being raised with their father inside and.

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Are you hopeful about. Because you've been doing a lot of work in this space. Like, how. Give me an update. That's a. That's a big question. I know, but, like, man, sometimes I feel hopeful when I see some of the work being done, and sometimes I feel like, shit, is. Are we going to get a budge? Can we get.

Yeah.

I mean, how. Where. Where are we in that space?

I mean, I think we've done collectively, we've done tremendous work over the years. I mean, the fact that we can even have conversations about criminal justice and it's normal now. It's not like a weird thing. Right? So I think we're. We're. We're getting some traction. We got a long way to go. And what I've always tried to really focus on in my work is the human side of it. You know, when I think about my dad, like, my dad took on the responsibility of having another child when he was in his 40s. This is my responsibility. I left. And it wasn't until I got a little bit older, and I would go back and read his letters, and he was talking about the things that he was doing, you know, to make sure my oldest son had all the things he needed. And, I mean, this was recent when I was reading those letters, and I was like, wow, I missed all that, you know, because I was in the midst of, like, surviving prison and doing all the things, and I'm like, man, this man gave up all of, you know, the years that he was done raising kids, you know, that he was ready to go off and enjoy life with his wife, and now they had another child to raise, you know, and that's the consequence of some of the decisions we make. And I'm really, you know, adamant about talking about that part because a lot of times we talk about the system, we don't talk about personal responsibility and accountability for the things that we've actually, you know, contributed to our family's hurt.

Yeah, no, I get that. Who do you. When you. When you do. I know obviously the letters are to your son, but when you make a book like this. Who is. Who are you making it for?

Yeah. So the book started off as a series of letters. The idea started off as a series of letters based on my mentoring work, you know, so I get a chance to work with young men and women all across the country, you know, from high schools, colleges, entertainment, you know, everything you could think of, you know, So I was like, you know, looking at what's going on with the story of black men, like, we're America's problem, we're black women's problem, we're each other's problem, and we're nobody's solution. And I know that that's not true, and I know that that narrative was nonsense. And I was like, I need to speak to, to the heart and soul of these young brothers so they'll know that even though all these external things are being said, that there is truth that's right around you, you know? So I started off like, let us to my hip hop sons and let us to my entrepreneurial sons. And as I was thinking about the idea, I was like, you know, I have two sons that embody all of these sons. Between those two worlds of my 30 year old son and my 10 year old is every son I've ever mentored. You know, the hopes and dreams and aspirations, the letdowns, the fallouts, the disconnects, they exist between my two sons. And I felt like if I connected to my sons, that it would resonate with all sons and anybody, like, who cares about fathers. And I write to my son. That's what I have. Right. But I promise you, the themes in this book are so resonant with people from every aspect you can think of.

Accountability is a big thing, huh?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I get that from you.

Yeah.

I always feel like there's something in, in each of your stories. And I do suggest, by the way, first of all, everybody should get this book. But some of the past interviews, and if you don't know Shaka's story, digging kind of into that, because it is so inspirational. Just, you know, your experiences, what you've been through, how you've come out of it, and then what you're doing with your life, to change other people's lives is so inspirational. Always, man. So salute on that. And you're getting like, nice. I saw Nas posted the other day, which I thought was dope. I think he called you like his favorite writer, too.

Yeah, I mean, he invited me to write a piece for King's Disease too, and I was able to do that, which was like the most Surreal thing you have.

Like, how did that even happen?

So crazy thing, I'm trying to give you a short summary of it. 1994, I'm on, like, my third year in prison. I get ill medicine. I'm listening to it. I hear one love, and I literally jump off my bunk like, yo, he's writing a letter to somebody incarcerated. Somebody out here feels us. I go and get a tattoo of Illmatic on my arm.

You still have it?

I do. It's the worst tattoo ever, I promise you. And now you gotta think, this early 94, they not even sophisticated with attaching it. So Gal Lily is just like hammering Illmatic into my arm. And then some reason I was like, we should put a dog on there with a chain. And so it literally. It's the worst tattoo ever. I literally tell my friend, I got a dope friend, my guy Ben. So Ben Horowitz is my guy. I'm telling him this story.

Ben Horowitz is a big deal, by the way.

Yeah, this is my bro, right? So I tell Ben the story, show him the tattoo. He falls out his chair laughing. He like, yo, I gotta call Nas. He calls Nas. I tell Nas the story of how his album inspired me. Fast forward, we meet. First meeting, it was kind of like the what up, what up, you know, brother things, how we roll, you know? And Nas, super chill, yeah, Running to each other again, kind of, you know, what up, what up? A little bit more cooler. And then we ended up hanging out one day. You know, me, him and Ben, we spent probably about six hours just listening to Eric being Rakim. Boogie Down Production.

That's a great day.

And the best thing about it is Nas is genuinely a fan of hip hop for sure. It is so genuine. And you just see. So at that point, it's just like we three teenagers, you know, having the time of our life. Fast forward, he hits me up, he's like, yo, I want you to write something for this song. He was like, don't rap. Just write something for the song, right? I'm like, cool. I'm like, okay, when you need it. He was like, I'm actually in the studio now. Can you send it over? So I'm like, I'm texting, all calm, like, okay, yeah, I got you. I put the phone down. I'm like, yo, this is crazy. What do you mean? Like, right now, right? And I ended up writing this piece for the song composer, which is on King's disease, too. And elements of that piece ended up being in the book because I thought the Words were so resonant about how do you hold it together when everything around you is falling apart? How do you lean into our ancestors and their experiences? And that's what Sekou was talking about is, you know, our really point for him in the book is to look at people who have done it all, figured it out, learned from them, both their failures as well as their successes, and take that energy into the universe and build from this.

So I love that.

Yeah.

What is the piece?

It's a composer on Kings of Seas 2.

Kings of Seas II. Yep, it's a piece. Is it the whole thing you wrote or is it just like a little clip?

So it's like a whole, like, minute long piece. Like a whole poem, basically.

That's kind of good. Do you get music publishing on that?

I do. You don't gotta be about the business. And the dope thing is like, you know, Nas was intentional about making sure. No, he's like that.

I wanted to pull up the. Because I love what he wrote about. Oh, here it is.

Yeah.

That is to the sons of society. My bro Shaka dropped this new book today. One of my favorite authors in today's world.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm always sending him, like, things I've written, you know, just because we be. We'd be vibing, like, really about all the things, you know, about being a man, being a leader, you know, being a dad and. And, you know, he's just really a genuine brother and hit boy as well, who produced the track is super dope. They're like, these guys just show up as authentic, real brothers. And I just have tons of respect for them, and they inspire me as well.

I know you're a hip hop fan, too. What do you think of. And what do you think about what's happening, what Jay and Meek are doing in reform in terms of, you know, they're trying to make it so that the lyrics can't be used. Do you know anything? Yeah. Do you know anything about that process or.

I mean, I definitely understand what they're getting to is where, you know, if you go to court for. If you get charged with something. Right. Nobody can come into court and be like, well, yeah, he actually. Yesterday he did that. It's like hearsay. And you're basically using something to skew the case in a way that favors the prosecutor. So I think when you know, some. If somebody's accused of a violent crime and they've happened to have written something that was violent lyrics, you know, they have taken that stuff and they're weaponizing that in the courtroom in a way that's unfair. Because in the world of music and entertainment, you know, it's entertainment. You know, it's not like if, you know, one of the filmmakers get in trouble, that they're going to be like, you know, 10 years ago, he made this film where it was murder and mayhem. Therefore, he's guilty. So I think it's a little more complex than what people think, but I think it's a great way to challenge the system on how they railroad so many people in the prison and how this particular genre has been targeted in ways we just don't see with other genres of music.

Yeah, I like to see celebrities using their platform for this too. People give. You know, Kim Kardashian's been doing a lot of work in the show.

Kim a beast.

She is, right? It's like whatever you think about her, for whatever other reason, you can't just. I don't know how you discredit Kim.

Is a real one. Like, I'm not talking about just like, Kim used to come to our office and really sit and build with our members when I was executive director of anti recidivism Coalition. Always showed up at the Senate when we needed her. Always shows up to help get people out who really deserve their freedom. Like, she's genuine and she actually does the work. She studied with two friends of mine, Jessica Jackson and Erin Haney, who actually helped her with her legal. And what a lot of people don't think about is like, her dad was a lawyer. And just because you become a celebrity or become successful doesn't mean you stop revering your parents like that. Connectivity. All of you know, most people who have a healthy relationship with their parent always gonna look up to them. No matter what levels of success we achieve, our parents is always gonna be that barometer of approval. And so her work in this space is legit. And she's like. I say she real. A lot of people talk about it. They don't do the work.

What do you mean, though? Like what? Like what? Like, is there some something that she's doing that most people don't do?

I mean, she actually puts it on the line. She goes to the senate, she talks to senators, she's talking to lawyers. She actually spends time with system impacted people. She comes to our office with no frills, bells and whistles, and really seeks to learn and understand. There's a lot of people who will post a tweet or slap their name on something that they got approved to slap their name on. And it's not the real work, but it matters. Like, I'm not. I don't want to discredit. Absolutely. Absolutely helpful. But it's levels to it. You know, it's like with anything, there's levels to it. And she's at that level where, you know, I can never question her intention because I've seen it in action.

Wow, that's nice to hear, man. Yeah, I know there's a lot of people doing good work in the.

Oh, it's incredible people Van. You know, Scott Budnik, you know, this is an incredible organizations that's really leading and people putting it on the line.

Yeah.

And you. And you, my friend.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, let's give a hard sell on why everybody should get this book.

Shock, Yo. First of all, this book is so poetically beautiful. It's well written, it's super vulnerable, very emotional. And I believe that it offers us the greatest pathway to understanding how to parent in a way that includes all of our emotions, all of our experiences as dads, and that expands the narrative as opposed to changes the narrative.

Well, congratulations. I'm sure it'll be another bestseller.

Let's go.

Let's go. Shaka sengho, everybody. 5.105.1.

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