The Hustler's Guide to Getting Paid

Welcome. This is the Hustler's Guide to Tech, where you don't need a degree from Harvard or Stanford or a STEM education or none of that. All you need is drive, ambition, and the will to get it done. In other words, you need to be a hustler.

No doubt.

And we're here today with my co host, Shaka. What's happening, Shaka?

Happy to be here, man. Excited.

Shaka came straight out the penitentiary, sold books off the street.

Yeah. Out the trunk of the car.

Out of the trunk of the car by himself that he published himself and now is a New York Times bestselling author. And we're here talking to Ram, the CEO of Earn in, where you can get paid as soon as you work. And then we're here with Vaughn, the hustler, who's taking advantage of that and getting his. So let's get into it.

Let's get into it, man. So dope name. I love the name. Earning. The first thing that came to my mind was Kevy D. Money Earning Mount Vernon.

I was like, that's a Hustle name right there.

Earning, though, you know.

Money earning.

Yeah. Money earning. Right. But that's, like, a brilliant concept.

Well, why don't you tell us, like, what Earnin is and what it does.

Yeah. So this problem that people now call the $400 problem, which is 40% of the country can't find $400. And to me, it's crazy that that happens because it's locked up in this pay cycle where we pay people every two weeks. And so we're basically holding back their pay. And then they don't have enough money, so they go to really bad options. And I came across this when one of my employees at my previous company, she was going into getting overdraft fees. And I asked her why she was getting overdraft fees because I thought I was paying everyone. Well, the problem she had was that she needed money the next day and couldn't wait till Friday. And so she'd already worked for a few days, and we owed her money for the work she'd already done. But I couldn't get the payroll system to pay her. So I did a manager workaround and got her the money and did this for a few years. And when I left the company, the people I was doing this for want to know if I could still do it for them. And when I was able to do this, their life was so much simpler. They're paying all their bills on time. No more late fees on bills. No more overdraft fees, no more payday loans.

When I think about it, it seemed like there's just like, a lot of savings there. Like, people who don't get those fees and don't have to worry about trying to. Trying to figure out how to borrow money for other people with ridiculous interest rates. Especially like, if you from the hood where you got all these get money now, but it had, like, these crazy interest rates. And, like, in terms of money, like, how much is a savings are we looking at, like, annually?

So with just overdraft fees alone, as a country, we spend more on overdraft than we do on fresh vegetables.

Crazy, yo.

Paying money for your money.

Paying money for your money.

That's the financial system.

So it's almost like you working to make money to pay yourself to work. Like, it's crazy. It's like a ridiculous cycle. It's nuts. So, Vaughn, what's good, bro?

What's going on?

So what does the application look like on the ground? Like, how do you get out there and make it happen and shake things up and really take it to that next level?

Well, for me, it happened like this. I was scrolling through social media, and then this app popped up and it just said, get your money today. And I mean, like, maybe before I finish reading the sentence, click, and. And I had it, and it's downloaded, and I checked it out. And then by the time all the information processed, and it took about maybe like three to five business days, and it started working on my phone, and I realized what it was. I was like, okay, so it's tracking what it's tracking when I work. It's watching how much I make as I make it. And then it's allowing me the day of working to get that money the same day. And it's a different feeling. You know, I told my friend about it. I was like, yo, you gotta try this out. And he was like, what is it? I was like, you get your money before Friday. And he was like. And then he said. He said, keep it away from me. And I was like, what you mean? I was like, I've been using it. It's cool. And then his words were. I always remember this. He said, man, you're not trepidatious at all, are you? And I was like, oh, is it me or is it him? You know, and him is the way a lot of people feel about this type of thing. Everybody's looking for the catch. What's the thing? What's the thing? What is it?

Cause Von, like, when you took a risk and you just like, I'm gonna hit this, and I'm gonna keep it moving. And one of the things that Ben and I talk about a lot is like, how do we remove the mental barriers that allows people to empower themselves and access technology in a way that. That really makes them, you know, be able to connect with other people, but also earn, you know, through their own ability to get out and make things happen. So to just see the community that's developing around it, that's something we talk about a lot about. How do you shift culture? You know?

Yeah, that thing that you did, it might seem like a small thing, but to have the ability to go get something and then start to change your position in life where you can go do the next thing, like, that's, you know, and then anybody who knows you benefits from that.

Oh, yeah.

Because, you know, you. You're the breakthrough. Rahm, what do you charge?

So we don't charge anything. There's no fees to use the service. The other area that we're in right now is where people should be able to get health care even if they don't have much money. And I don't think we should hold these back just because someone doesn't have enough money to pay for it. And so what we said is people can pay us whatever they think is fair. And so when people are not able to pay, then they don't pay. When they are able to pay, they can pay something. And sometimes people come back and they actually help many people out. So. So you have a really strong paid forward culture where people actually come into the app to help each other out.

So in addition to allowing people to access their own capital, it's also building a sense of community, which most people don't think about organically when it comes to tech is like, how do you build community that actually opens it up. Yeah.

As far as the community aspect of it, when you actually start using the app, you know, you have the ability to tip whatever amount you decide to, and it caps the amount you can tip. So, for example, today was Wednesday, and I cashed out 100 bucks for work from work that day. The app comes up, and then it gives you the option. So would you like to tip yes or no. And then another sort of like an icon or a little animation comes up, and it shows you, because of your tip, that you were able to pay it forward for somebody else.

So it's incentivized in a more organic way. Like, kind of like, okay, you see how you helping people.

Exactly. You know, that Thing where you go through a toll and maybe you have a little bit extra that day, and so you pay for the two people behind you, or you getting some donuts in the morning and you're like, all right, five bucks for the guy behind me. It's sort of like that. Cause when you tip as well, it tells you based on the amount you tip, how many people you're assisting. So if you roll it to $3, the chain will go up to 1. If you roll it to 5, maybe it goes up to 2 people. If you hit it, like, at a $9 tip, it goes up to 3. It's up to you. You can do whatever you want. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm good right now. Boom, $9 tip. And you help three other people.

I think about, like, how most people want to show up in the world. I think, you know, we're organically helpful people. And when you can actually see that you really help somebody, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. So one of the other pieces is if someone helps you out, you can say thank you to them. And We've had over 10 million thank you messages between users. One of the other things that's, like, surprising to me is, like, when I speak with people who are like, more from the traditional financial services, they don't get why people will help other people out.

Because they not trying to help. You gotta wanna help people to understand what that looks like.

They're on the other end.

Right on the other end of this thing. So people are helpful in paying it forward. But why do you think that people wanna help each other? Like, what is it about the space of freedom that makes people wanna really help each other?

So I think people actually help each other out in the real world. Offline. That's what you do, is if you're short of money, you ask your friends or your cousin for money. It's not the way, like, you're used to banks working. Like, banks don't ask customers to help each other out, but in the real world, people do help each other out.

Yeah.

And we're basically bringing that into this technology platform and giving it a lot of scale.

Are people pretty consistent with each transaction of tipping or, like, what does that look like? Is it like every third transaction or.

Everyone chooses what works for them. Yeah. So it's different for different people. The same person could be different at different times. I mean, like, how do you. Have you thought to it?

Well, the way I do it is like this. Depending on how much I'm going to cash Out. I know what my ultimate goal is. So maybe I know this week I'll cash out twice. So that means I know that on Tuesday I may tip $5, and on Wednesday I might not tip anything because I know that for the week it's $5. You don't have to tip every time. It just depends on what you know you're going to do and what you know that you can afford. Honestly, as with anything, you have to budget your money. Okay. Because just like as if you, in the old system, you would have to have saved money from an old paycheck to pay for an upcoming bill. In this instance, you're using funds that have. That you would normally expect on Friday. You're getting it earlier. So you just budget yourself and know that you used that money already. Okay. So it's just budgeting, but it's also allowing you that. That access to the money in advance so that you can avoid potential overdraft fees or something comes up or things like that. So most important is you have to budget your money.

Okay. So I just had a question just popped up. It's like, so you're married.

Yes.

And there's shared household responsibilities financially. So how does that work within that context? Is it like you hit your wife up like, yo, I gotta take this out to take care of that?

Completely did it on my own at first, because I knew what the reaction was gonna be.

Right?

Yeah.

So I just did it. Let me see if this works. And I didn't even think it was gonna cause any problems. But I knew what saying, hey, there's this thing. Can I check it out? I knew it was gonna happen. Cause that's what people say. Cause they can't believe it. So I just went for it on my own. And then after that, it's done nothing but assist me. So it's worked out. The pay cycles just. There's gaps in them. And I don't think people should be ashamed of running out of your check before Friday gets there. I mean, it's a normal occurrence. It happens often. There's a phrase, I gotta wait till Friday.

Right.

People say that there's a reason you gotta wait till Friday is because you don't have the money to afford it today. And sometimes you miss out on things, and sometimes you incur fees. You end up paying more money because you had to wait on the money you already earned that you could have now. So it's done nothing but assist me, assist us in our household.

And just in terms of, like, access, is it kind of Like a limit or like, how does that work?

If you get it seven days a week, 24 hours a day, as soon as you hit cash out, the money's in your account the same second. So you could be like at McDonald's and you need six bucks. You just take out six bucks and you put your debit card in.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's instant.

Have you ran into anything, you know, consumers who are just like, you know what, I'm too irresponsible. I need to just unplug because I'm just going to take out all the money and go to the casino or do whatever reckless has that user experience have occurred or.

So the user experiences that we hear are mostly around people are using the app to pay bills, to buy groceries, to buy food, to buy gas. There's that struggle to make it to Friday. And it's not because you wanted to go gamble, it's because you needed to get to work or you needed to buy food. And that's what people are using this for.

And can they pay for these things like within the app itself, or do they just go to their debit card and they swipe it goes into the.

Bank account and they use their debit card to buy it.

So, Ram, you were talking earlier about healthcare. What is your vision for the community?

So with healthcare, the core problem is that when you get medical bills, there always, almost always a surprise, they're quite large. And usually when you get them, your income goes down as well. I mean, like half the personal bankruptcies in the country are because of medical bills.

Half, yes. Wow.

And even if you have insurance, like Your deductible is 5,000 or 10,000 bucks, most people don't have that sitting in their bank account. And so even with insurance, healthcare is not affordable. And so what we've done is it's really simple from the user's point of view. They basically take pictures of their builds through the app and give it to us. And then usually within two days, we're able to get them a lower amount on their bill, a payment plan, and then if there is any financial aid, we'll try to match them up with financial aid as well. And so with over 90% of the bills that we've got, we've been able to get people some kind of savings. We're looking for places where there's some kind of unfairness or inequality and seeing if we can bring a technology solution to make that place be more balanced. So this is becoming a platform of.

Community supported products, you know, that's so powerful. I was thinking earlier, you know, because I'm always thinking about it, you know, like, what do you teach young people about, like, money that makes them go one way or the other? And like, my favorite quote on this is compound interest is eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it earns it, and he who doesn't, pays it. And that's like an Albert Einstein quote. But, you know, that's the thing about money that I think so many people don't understand is that either you have money and your money wakes up every day, goes to work and makes you more money to the point where, like, when you get enough money, you don't even have to work. Your money just goes to work on your behalf. And then if you're borrowing money, if you're getting credit, if you don't have your check and you have to go borrow that or put it on the credit card or whatever, then you're paying for that. You're paying for that other person to not have to go to work. And you don't even realize you're doing that. And you just fall into this pattern. And of these financial products that put you on the bad end of that deal. And so the thing that, you know that to me is really exciting is you're saying, no, I'm getting my money that I already made, and now I've got money, and now you have the choice. You can spend it, you can invest it, you can do what you need, but that's your money.

Yeah, no, I think that's really dope because you hit on a pivotal point, like the culture. And that's something we talk about a lot when it just comes to, like, how do we shift culture? And I kinda wanna pivot a little bit around just the idea of, like, what the show is about. Like, how do you really break through some of these barriers? That's in people's way, especially in the tech space. Right. Tech can be very intimidating. I walked outta prison nine years ago, and I was gone for two decades, so I didn't know any of this tech stuff. Right. But there was a curiosity there. I was like, I really wanna learn how the modern world works. And just from a hustler standpoint, I always thought that guys that come from the street or come from the communities where street hustling is the norm don't always recognize that those are transferable skills. And as we're trying to solve problems and trying to empower people, how do we message that in a way where people feel to your point where it's not like this skepticism when you introduce some tech, but where it's this open curiosity and allow people to create. Create space where they can come in and, like, get out and go make it happen. Where do you guys see that connection in terms of, like, how do we introduce the culture of technology and hustle technology to the masses?

If I could come up with an idea, it would just be more visibility, more people knowing that there's real people using it and that there isn't such a reason to be skeptical. I mean, I guess just generally people are scared of this type of thing because, I don't know, maybe they've heard horror stories before, but, I mean, that's the only thing I could think of. Just knowing that more people are really using these things that are out there to their advantage and not their detriment, you know, as these are assistance devices and not everything that you see on your phone is there to scam you or take your money. These are real tools that you have now to your advantage.

I think there's also, like, some amount of, like, skepticism or anything that's new, whether it's like, with Lyft and getting into a car with a stranger, or Airbnb staying in someone else's house, and long ago with Amazon putting your card number into the Internet. But technology can make things so different that you're not sure if it's all right because it's so different. People look at our product and they say, well, this is too good to be true. They're used to overdraft fees. And I'm like, that's too bad to be part of your future. This is the way it should have been always. You should have always had access to your pay.

What's always funny to me is that it's like people on social media talking shit about tech. I'm like, but you're actually using tech to talk shit, right? And it's like, if you can make that connection for people to see, like, we're already using tech, right? No matter. You're not gonna. That's just the reality, right? So why not use it in a way that actually empowers you and helps you solve problems and make life a lot more simple. And so that's kind of like, always. The thing I'm thinking about is how do we continue to push the envelope and shift culture and get people to see, like, these things aren't as intimidating as they make them out to be, and that you can dive in and figure out a way to, you know, either Create the next big thing that make problem solving easier or just, you know, utilize it to make your life a little bit more simple.

Yeah, Kind of picking up on what you said, Chaka. Like, one of the things that is interesting and really the opportunity I think is you have this old system and we all know all the things that are wrong and all the things that are unfair about the old system, the old financial system, the old healthcare system, the old, like, work hours and structure. And one thing is you fight the system. But the other thing is there's a new system. And how do we get the guys on the come up onto the new system and just not have to protest the old system? Because, like, we've been protesting that system for a long time and like, it hasn't changed at all.

When I was getting out, I was just like, okay, I got to just figure this thing out, right? So I know what I control. And I can only deal with the things that I can control, right? That means I gotta get my ass out there and hustle and push the envelope. So I literally would sell books to anybody. I didn't care who you was, and I would do it. I mean, Jehovah Witness come knock at the door, they wanna sell a watchtower. Give away a watchtower, I wanna sell this book. Let's swap out. I mean, for me it was really just that idea that, you know, I mean, I think enterprise has always been a part of the culture. You know, like there's that hustler ethic there, that ethos, right? That culture of figuring it out. Cause that's what that hip hop culture emerged out of. Making something out of nothing. And that's what I look at. That's how I look at technology, right? I always ask kids this. I say, okay, you know, if you're on social media, I'm like, did it cost you to get on? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay, are they selling you anything personally? And they're like, no. I'm like, so how are they making money? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, it's an idea. And the idea is to really take things and figure out how to create value in them. And if you create the thing, then you create the value and you can figure out how to get that out. And I think that culturally what we really would love is just for people to awaken to the idea that you can get out and make things happen if you just have that go getter mentality and really dig into it. Yeah.

I guess what got me over the hurdle of it was it's in the Play Store. And I think what my friend meant when he said, boy, you're not trepidatious at all, was he was sort of stating this, which is, I was telling him, you can get your money now. You don't have to wait till Friday. And people don't think that should happen. You can't do that. You can't get your money before Friday.

Even though you worked today.

That's not allowed. Because you, Vaughn, are not capable of handling your money before Friday. Your employer can hold it for you because they know what's best. You can't take that now because you're gonna blow it. So you can't keep your money now. You gotta wait till Friday. Cause they know better.

So where's he at now? Does he still think of things the same way?

He ain't come around yet.

So you should ask. Here's a question you should pose to him. You should ask him if he went to the casino and he won at the slots, when would he want them to pay him?

Exactly. Right.

And just see how he responds.

Right.

Cause that's the reality, Right. If you go to casino and you, like, win, you want that cash. Right. Then, like, you don't want to wait because you just. You earned that. Right.

Exactly.

And so why would it be any different if you're working and you actually put the hours in to add value to another company, why wouldn't you add that value to yourself? So I think you can turn them around. Yeah.

You also look at what the businesses do. You go into a shop, you pay them at once. You don't say, I'll pay you in two weeks, because you may be irresponsible if I give you the money now. The businesses take their money as soon as they give you something immediately. But as an individual, you're not supposed to have it. And it's not like all your bills show up on payday. I mean, your bills show up at different times. You should have your money available when you will show up.

You're expected to hold over your money. You're not expected to have your money early and then pay for what comes up. You're expected to hold it from the week before. So it's sort of backwards.

And even like, I mean, why should the bank or why should, like the company have your money and be earning on it when you should could be earning? Why are they money earning on your money that you work for that they owe you? Like that doesn't make any sense.

Until about two centuries ago, this whole concept of pay cycles was not there. Employees were paid every day. And it was during the Industrial revolution that we started paying people in batch like this. As an employee, you'd rather get your money before you work. The company would rather pay you much after you work. And then it's kind of interesting that now we have the situation where we've all accepted that companies can pay you after you work. Just shows you how the balance of power has shifted so much away from the individual. Like, now we have, like, now there's an opportunity for technology to actually make that be more level and balanced.

It really gets down to, like, who's running your life. One of the reasons we wanted this on the podcast is this is the one where you, like, okay, let me take control of my destiny. And then, you know, as we go forward, what are the opportunities that I have now I'm running my money.

Like, really, it's about taking control of destiny.

Very common use cases to buy gas and say, like, lots of people were not able to get to work the day before payday. And sometimes that means they would lose their job if they missed too many days of work. Now they use the app, they take money, buy gas, they have better attendance. Better attendance means higher paychecks, actually. So we see paychecks go up. People get to, like, see the doctor when they have a toothache instead of, like, waiting for payday and putting up with the toothache for four days. People can celebrate their children's birthdays on the birthday instead of pushing back celebrations to payday.

I was just thinking about from a generational standpoint, Rahm, in terms of, like, the people who are most likely to be impacted are people that's, you know, maybe 40, 50s, 60s, getting into that space of close to retirement or whatever the case may be. And how have they been able to adapt to technology? Because sometimes older generation can tend to be a little resistant. But how. What are you guys doing to kind of penetrate that culture and make it more accessible?

So ours, a lot of it spread, spreads from, like, people talking about it to. To their friends. And it feels like the adoption is actually much more in the people who are more like 18 to 35 or 40, they're probably the ones who are more comfortable using their phone. And so I think we actually, if you were to look at the people who use the app, it does skew a little bit more younger. Maybe the people who are used to the system, just, like the overdraft fees and all the Other fees or like, afraid to try something new.

Yesterday was the first time I ordered and took an Uber. I've been in Ubers, but I've never had the app on my phone. My wife did it. Yesterday was the first time I did it. Yeah, there was a little something in my stomach. Even though I've been in Ubers and done it, like, but she's always handled it. You know, we go to New York, she's like, she's. I'm like, you got Uber? And she do it. But I was like, okay, so I got, I gotta do this. I gotta be a big boy. I gotta do it. And I did it. I put it on and I was like, am I gonna know how to do this? And then I was like, everybody's doing this. Get with it. You know, and I just did it. And I think people just gotta jump in. I mean, or else you're gonna be left out. Cause like, saying that sounds crazy.

Yeah. You know what was always interesting to me? Cause I, you know, I personally use Lyft, but when I was thinking about like, people's resistance even to Lyft, right? I'm like, how different is that than just calling the taxi cab a stranger still rolling up, you hopping in the car and you gotta decide whether you wanna get in the car and you feel safe. So it's just always interesting about how our brains work when it old models versus new models.

Absolutely.

This is going to kind of explode the myths around the old models and really help people see the advantage of adopting new models of technology and thinking, whether it's from an enterprising standpoint or a user standpoint. I think if we accomplish that, then our job is done.

I also think, you know, I mean, the thing that I really want to do is take that message directly to the people coming up trying to make the hustle, trying to get to the next phase of their life, rather than, you know, having to run it through, you know, some third party filter that's got like their own agenda about they like the old world and they don't want it to change and all that kind of thing.

So I grew up in Detroit and, you know, it's a factory town. And you know, when you go through the communities, you see all these kind of, you know, payday loan places, you know, and I hear the conversation. I know people who literally live check from check. I grew up with it in my family and, you know, I know it's always been a driver for me. Like, I never wanted that pressure of living check to Check. You know, it's not healthy. It's like, physically it's not healthy. Emotionally it's not healthy, and it's definitely not healthy spiritually. And so if you can speak to an audience like that, you know, this is a hard working, blue collar town. People working in factories, they're doing these long hours and they're often behind, they're often trying to play catch up because, you know, an emergency happens, you know, they gotta get something fixed. It's bad weather out there, Right. The roof goat caves in and they're like, oh, man, I ain't going to be able to do this till payday. You know, if you speak directly to those people who are just trying to figure it out, like, what. What would you say to convince them that this is an option if they're, you know, willing and open to exploring it?

Yeah, I think, like, I mean, we talk so much about this being like the land of equal opportunity and, like, we kind of put the responsibility on the individual to pull themselves up. But the way the system is set up, so often the system keeps pushing people down.

Well, and telling people that there's no opportunity. You get like, fed that there's no opportunity, as opposed to being fed the opportunities.

Yeah. And you're supposed to believe that the system works very well, even though what it's really doing is holding you down.

Yeah.

Why does your employer need to actually hold back your paycheck?

How have employers responded to that? How have companies responded to that? Have they been like, yo, this is cool, or are they like, yo, what are y' all doing with our interest right now?

Y', all, we've been able to make this work as a product that goes directly to consumers. But businesses have actually started, like, wanting this. And there's a couple of reasons why. One is their employees are actually less stressed now about money. Like, they're not thinking about a whole bunch of other things. Attendance goes up because people can buy gas and come in, so their workers are actually, like, more productive. The other piece too is you're beginning to see this happen in the market. Like, Uber's paying people more often. Lyft is paying people more often. You have to stay competitive. And so we have a lot of companies that now actually tell their employees about us so that their employees can have the benefits. And there's like, no work for the company to do. So it's actually really easy.

So one of the things that is really interesting to me because you're actually taking the financial risk and you're trusting Vaughn and So tell us a little bit about, like, how do you know him? Why do you trust him? And why are you able to have a good business doing that?

So what we're doing is giving him access to his pay for a long time, the entire banking system and still like that. The entire traditional system doesn't know whether Vaughn has worked today or not. And, like, they wait for two weeks for the paycheck to show up, and then they're like, okay, now, Vaughan is good because that batch process ran in the company. What we're using is technology that didn't exist five years ago. We're using the smartphone and things that are in the smartphone to tell if Vaughn is actually working today or not. And so knowing that Vaughn has actually worked, we know he's going to get the paycheck and that he's already owned the money. And if he's already owned the money, then he should have access to it. But the other. The traditional players don't know Vaughn has worked. They're not used to that kind of information.

That, to me, is one of the most powerful things, because great businesses are built on great trust. And because you can trust your partners, you can do things that people could never do with a million contracts. And the fact that you guys don't have a contract, he didn't fill out a loan application.

Yeah, it's, like, quite different from the traditional system where we've built this new system where trust is, like, inherently a part of it, whereas in the old system, it's like distrust is a part of it, which is why they make you sign these long terms and conditions, and every possible outcome is thought through and set up to be in a way that's advantageous for the company.

Yeah, that's a big thing. You get people who push this kind of generalized idea of, like, the man or the system or, you know, things that you can't trust. And without really any exploration into those spaces, it doesn't really foster that type of relationship dynamic where you, like, oh, I trust that this is my best interest. Even though human behavior really leads us to think that instinctively we're more trustworthy than we give ourselves credit for. And I think part of it is, like, marketing the idea that technology isn't this boogeyman. It's really just curious people who have figured out ways to simplify the world and figured out ways to monetize their ideas and thoughts in the way that we exchange information. We're so excited having you guys. So this is dope, man.

Yeah, super excited. We really appreciate it.

Appreciate y'.

All.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.