The Hustler's Guide to Preschool

All right, well, thank you all for coming. Today we're going to do an episode of our podcast, the Hustler's Guide to Tech. And what the Hustler's Guide to Tech is for is if you have the talent, the desire, and the hustle to do great things and are looking for that opportunity to shine, we're here to help by introducing you to the technology platforms that can let you do just that. And so across from me, I've got my co host, Shaka Senghor.

What up, y'?

All?

Good morning.

To my left, our hustler, Sherry James.

Good morning.

Sherry has gone from teaching kids her whole career to using Chris's platform, who is the CEO of wonderschool, to create, run, and most importantly, own her own school.

Yeah.

And this is Chris Bennett, the CEO. The founder CEO of wonderschool.

Hello, everyone.

All right, well, let's get into it. Chris, tell us about what is wonderschool.

So I grew up in Miami, Florida. My family is from Honduras. And growing up, I grew up in a pretty large family. One of 31 cousins. Wow.

That's a lot of cousins.

A lot of cousins.

So when you see somebody, you're just like, what up? Cousins.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And when I was in third grade, I was in the gifted program. When I was in high school, had all of these options for college. I was the first in my family to go to college. Went to the Wharton school. Of the 31 cousins, only four of us ended up going to college. And looking back on my childhood, there was one really unique thing about my experience relative to most of my cousins. I went to one of the best preschools in Miami.

Wow.

And when I. Looking back on that experience, I moved to San Francisco and I realized there's this huge shortage of childcare. And I'm hearing this from all over the. From a number of people, and thinking about that problem, I think, you know, how could we solve that problem? And I thought back to my sister who went to an in home daycare in our community. And the woman who started the school is still running her business today, 35 years later. I thought, you know, this could solve this problem. We could create a lot more programs and fill the gap. And so the idea was, what if we could help people start and operate their own childcares out of their homes.

Yeah. I think it's something that we don't really talk enough about in the country, is about ownership of the things that serve our community. Sherry. Being an educator and being able to work with young kids very early on what was it about, like the idea of ownership that really resonated with you?

Well, I didn't really know how or what to do to open my own program. I've always worked with someone else and so I was trying to figure out what skills that I had to kind of help myself maintain my life as normal as well as maybe be at home with my son at the time. And. And then I found Wonder School. So they actually just helped me just kind of organize all my thoughts and my ideas on a website, as well as walking myself through the licensing process. Gave me a sounding board to talk to and ask questions to help guide me through the licensing process. Because it could be kind of a little bit overwhelming with all the applications and then you have all of the licensing requirements that you need to go through and then you have to have your inspections and things of that sort. So having someone to talk to throughout that process was really great. Also setting up my actual environment because that's also something that was really important to me. How do I turn my home into a school? So that was something I also had to do.

Right, right.

And how, like, what age kids do you have currently?

My youngest is well, what's four months and my oldest is four. You have to make sure that your home is safe. And I try to allocate two rooms as well as my outdoor play space for this program. So then that way my kids feel comfortable as also my family feels comfortable. Then they also have their own personal rooms as well. So we have a family room set up as well as a backyard and they have a bonus room outside of my house as well.

Yeah.

One of the things I love hearing is that you keep saying my kids because I got a little confused with them. I'm like 0 and 4. I'm like, okay, what about the other kids? But as a parent, like I have a 7 year old son and it's really important for me to know that any space that I bring my son into, that he's loved, that he's welcome, that is healthy, that is whole. So hearing you just refer to the kids in that manner is really exciting. One of the things Ben and I were just discussing was like the, you know, how do you market things and how do people learn information?

I was just on Facebook one night, just kind of scrolling through my feed and watching that's kind of my entertainment. And an ad came across and it was Chris and asking for if you're interested in opening your own program to contact them. And then you had to fill out a little Bio or interest page, and then you also had to take a picture, but your space did not have to be set up. That was the great thing about it, because my space was not quite set up yet. It was just a family room at the time. And then they got back to me and they walked me through the process.

Yeah. And, Chris, how do you, like, help people like Sherry market her program so that they can expand and get more students?

There are a number of ways. So most, a lot of parents sort of congregate, and they congregate online and offline, so they'll congregate in a lot of parent groups and a lot of, like, mom groups on Facebook. And so we work with all of our directors to promote their businesses in those areas. And then we do a lot of, you know, marketing through ads and through a lot of events.

One of the reasons for the podcast is really to make technology more accessible to people, especially people who don't come through, like, the more what they interpret as a stereotypical nerdy spaces.

Right.

And there's something really appealing about being able to reach parents and connect with parents who most people may not think would jump into the business model. So how has that experience been, you know, seeing people who are really interested in that may not come through the.

Normal pipeline from a parent standpoint or from a director's standpoint?

From a parent standpoint, Yeah.

I mean, what we find is that a lot of the parents we work with, this is their first child. And parents who have their first child are very, very nervous and protective. Protective of their child?

Yeah. By the 8th kid, it's like.

By the 8th kid, it's like, just take the kid. And so one of the things we think lot about is making that experience feel comforting for them, for the parent, as they're going through the process. One thing we like to do is make sure they see a lot of schools so they can get a sense of the different types of programs that they can choose from. And then once they find a program, we actually don't stop there. Like, it's really common for a child to cry on their first day of school or maybe even their first week of school. And parents get really nervous. They freak out, and they think that something is wrong. And we essentially coach parents through that experience. And then the idea is, how do we help that parent become a better parent and work with the director so that they can, you know, ensure that their child gets developed the right way?

That's a funny story. You know, when I was a kid, my mom told me this Story. She dropped me off at preschool and I started crying. And the school is like, just leave him here, he'll be fine.

Exactly.

And she comes back three hours later and she said, I was still crying and soaking wet from tears. I was a bad kid. But usually most of them are better. Sherry, one thing is a lot of parents have trouble affording a preschool program, but you've been able to help them with that. Tell us how you did that.

Well, one thing that I've implemented in my program is I accept subsidies.

So what?

Subsidies are basically, there's different programs, depending on the county you live in, that help parents afford childcare. So I try to make sure I have room in my program for those children as well.

How did you learn how to accept subsidies and do that kind of work?

Well, that was something that was really important to me. I wanted to offer a high quality program in an area that maybe normally doesn't offer certain things. I want to have a play base. I wanted to have an outdoor program. It's really important, I think, for kids to play outside and have that outdoor experience. We have a garden in mice program. So we have a lot of hands on activities within seeing the food grow and how to plant food and then and walking them through that process as well. Teaching them where our food comes from.

Yeah. So how did you start out? Like, what was this background in early childhood education that you had? And then just for yourself with your kids, I mean, your other kids that were your kids. Like, how did you think about that?

So I did the traditional path. I went to school all through college. I always worked in some field of education or administration. As I working my way up through the ranks, I automatically went through administration and started working somehow in social work. And then I was doing social work for over 10 years, working with the homeless downtown Los Angeles, and also working with children and families of intellectually disabled individuals, doing casework as well as social work in that environment. And then I also did some behavioral type positions. And so I wanted to kind of link all of my skills into one platform. I was trying to figure out a way to service my community, utilize the skills I have, as well as open my own business. So initially, my target was to create an environment for children of special needs. I wanted to take all the children that the other program did not want, you know, and I wanted to link them into my program. That was my initial idea, how I thought I would work everything out.

Yeah, that's a lot of work. That's the highest degree of difficulty.

Definitely, definitely, definitely. But it takes like, you know, if you have a love for that, then it doesn't feel so bad. Doesn't it feel like, so stressful? You know, I actually prefer those children sometimes because the thing about it is people always think that the children who have the special needs are gonna be the ones who are gonna be the most challenging. No, no, no. It's those ones who think they know everything are the ones that give you all the problems. The children who have intellectual disabilities, they don't come into it thinking that they know everything. They come into it thinking that you're probably gonna automatically reject them and all their off top and, you know, when.

You were doing the social work, were there things that you took away from the programs that you used to route kids into that you should and should not do with your own business?

We do an interview. When you come into my program, you do a tour and you do an interview. You're interviewing me, I'm also interviewing you.

And are you interviewing the parents more or the kids?

Both, Both. I try to. I prefer if the parents bring the child, of course, we can bring them into the space, they can play. I usually try to do it during hours where we have an activity going on or we have, or we're outside playing. So. Because children learn through play, so you get a chance to learn a lot about the child and the parent by letting the child just simply just play. Some parents have a really hard time letting their kids just play and just go. It's really interesting to watch.

Chris. One of the things that's really been exciting for me, being a father and understanding like what children need from men and the importance of that. So when I found out, you know, about your work, I was excited because I'm like, okay. And it's a cool young brother and he's being thoughtful about children and really creating space for them to be nourished and, you know, raised in a healthy and whole environment and ownership. Like, what does that look like for you? Like, in terms of, like, who are the entrepreneurs?

Yeah. So the makeup of the entrepreneurs is all women. We have hundreds of programs on our platform.

It's a good thing we're at essence.

It's true. There's only one guy who runs a wonder school. And it's very personal for me. My mom was an entrepreneur and I saw her start businesses. A number of them didn't work out, but some of them did. And I got to work really closely with her to build the companies that she was working on. And so it feels very familiar for me to empower women on the platform to start these businesses and grow them.

What do you look for in an entrepreneur? Because not everybody is kind of cut out to run a super high quality early education program. So what do you screen for?

So there's a couple of key things. One, you have to love children. That's like, a must. And so if we meet someone who's like, hey, I just want to make a quick buck, but I'm not really that interested in the children aspect. Probably not the right fit. My preschool hustle, not the right fit. The other thing is grit. You know, like starting one of these businesses and getting it up and running, Especially when we go to a new market where we don't necessarily have a presence there, we have to partner really closely with the director to actually make their business successful. And you need to have grit to get through the early months of getting your program up and running. And then once you get the parents in the. In the program, continually running your business, it's really rewarding. But there's ups and downs as well. And so we're looking for individuals who are ready for that experience.

Sherry, what would you say to somebody who's looking to take that leap from nine to five, working for somebody else to really establishing their own business? What would be your words of wisdom?

Honestly, I would just tell them their heart is leading them down this path of entrepreneurship. Then go for it. But just know that it's not going to be easy. You're definitely going to have those challenging moments and times. You're going to have your highs and your lows. But if you're willing to stay the course and keep your eye on the prize and you'll get through it, you know, with every obstacle, I always say, like, to whom much is given, much is required. There's been plenty of times where I had to call Chris here when I was concerned about my enrollment numbers. And I'm like, chris, I've been open for over four months. I'm not full yet. You know, and you have to know your environment. It takes some time to learn that. It takes time to learn your business. You know, I've been open almost three years now, and still I'm learning. I'm always changing my program. I'm always adapting it to the clients that I have and the children that I have and I'm servicing.

Yeah. One of the things that really inspired us is removing some of the mental barriers that standing away, it can be intimidating. Right. If you don't come from technology. And what would you say to Somebody that's saying, you know, I really want to get involved, but I'm a little bit intimidated by the platform. Like, what are some things that makes that more accessible to people?

I would say the only question that's dumb is that they wanted you to answer because the thing about it is you just don't know. Don't ever assume anything either if you don't know. I'm always asking my students questions, I'm always asking my parents questions. Is this working for you? If it's not working for you, how can we both make this work? You have to be able to adapt and change to your environment because every day is so different. One week we might be doing yogurt, all week, everybody thinking yogurt, you're just fine. But next week, everyone hates yogurt. So guess what? You have to come up with something else for them to eat. Just always something new to learn. So as long as you're not willing to open your mind, open your thoughts, and keep challenging yourself, you'll get through it.

Cool. Cool. As we're on this journey of really learning and understanding, like the background part of building up these type of business, these platforms, one of the things that really stands out to me is like, you're a young brother in this tech space. It's one of the conversations that's not talked about enough. Like, what are some things that we could be doing to not only celebrate and lift that up, especially given we're at essence 25th anniversary, but to make that part of just a normal conversation where people walk in a room is the expectation is that it's okay to run these tech based businesses and really to utilize them in a way that helps the rest of the community see where they can add value at.

Yeah, that's a great question. Being a black man who's an entrepreneur in San Francisco is pretty rare.

That's an actual unicorn.

I think a lot of it is. I'm really fortunate for my upbringing where I saw a lot of people in my family start businesses and my uncle runs a very successful hospital in Honduras. My another uncle runs an import export business in Miami. My dad ran a grocery store, my mom ran a perfume business and is a, a tax preparer. I saw a lot of people in my family sort of choose to go their own way. I didn't know that people went to college to get a job. I thought you went to college to learn so that you could go eventually start your own company. That's why I went. And so I think that one of the key Things to increase the exposure of. Of black individuals in technology. One of the things is expose people to entrepreneurship really early. And I think that's what's really cool. All of the women that are starting businesses on Wonder School are entrepreneurs, and they're exposing not only their children to it, but the communities that they're serving to entrepreneurship and the joys of it.

I come from a history of entrepreneurship too. It's a little bit different.

It's a little different.

Very nuanced differences. But what I learned in that culture is that there are transferable stuff. As we think about how tech is removing barriers to entry. What. What would you say to somebody who doesn't come from that traditional path, that doesn't come from a college or doesn't come from a family background, and just say, you know what? I need to figure out how to take ownership of my life, ownership of my destiny. I want to venture off into entrepreneurship. What do you say to those people who come from that culture where they have these transferable skills but may not feel like they have access?

It's interesting you say that, because I try to teach the kids from very small to take ownership in their decisions. Right. So I try to tell my kids all the time, you have good choices and you have bad choices, and there's consequences for every choice you make. Right. So at the same time, they make. I would say, make some smart, sexy, Right? So you have to let them know, like, oh, my gosh, you made such a positive choice in making this decision and going this direction. Right. You know, or if they come up with their own idea, they come up with their own making every idea, giving them empowerment, and tell them what a great job that they're doing from small. I think it takes. It starts at a very young age. You can see the difference in the children who get chastised for making. For making mistakes. So you make a mistake. It's okay. Okay, so let's get back up. Let's figure this out, and let's go another direction. You cannot. You can't dwell on that.

Yeah.

I don't believe in chastising kids for making mistakes because that's what they're doing. We're all learning and growing. Right. Even when Ms. Cherry makes mistakes, I take ownership in them. Because the kids will correct you.

They do.

And they let me know if I get off schedule. You know, they'll let me know, oh, my gosh. Well, you forgot to do. And it's okay. My youngest biological child is 4 years old, and my oldest is 13, so I've taught my daughter, my oldest, she will tell you off the bat, like, she knows that there's opportunities past just going to college, that she can own her own business, that there's opportunities there. I believe that I've embodied that for her as well as just helped mold her ideas and thoughts and let her know that she can control her own destiny in that.

I'm so happy you brought that into the conversation. I think one of the intimidating factors about venturing off into entrepreneurship is nobody wants to fail. Nobody wants to mess up and make it, and it's all failure, right? Yeah.

I mean, I had a 9 to 5 job.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I had a pension. I had all those different things that you're supposed to have. You know, I was a new. New homeowner. So, like, to step out on faith and start my own business, people, my family was like, are you crazy? Like, what is wrong with you? Like, you have a degree. Like, you have a job, you're working for, like, the state. Why would you want to do that? And for me, it was more so, like, I just wanted to take control of my own destiny. I really just wanted to take control of my own life and decide, like, what my future would look like. You know, I wanted to get up every day and. And feel like my work is actually making a difference directly. And it wasn't just about the reports. It wasn't just about the numbers and someone else's numbers and making someone else money. It was about, you know, how could I manage my own household? I always tell Chris, I just want to be able to make it. Let me make it. Let me make the minimum income. But it's so funny now. It's like through entrepreneurship, I've surpassed all that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think on a broader level, that's so much the key to everything, because as you can move from a model of, I've got a boss now, I'm vulnerable to the boss. And, you know, I'm often, because of that, I end up in debt. And then you move to. No, I'm an owner, and I have equity. And so that's how you kind of create a whole nother world. And. And it's interesting that it starts in preschool with owning your own decisions and not being afraid to make a mistake and not being negative with kids, which is a. You know, that's a cultural thing, which, you know, it starts right there to change. If you want to get to a culture of ownership, you got to make the kids owners. And if they're going to be owners, then they can't be penalized. That's amazing insight.

Yeah. So speaking of that culture of fear, so how do you combat that when you're dealing with parents and you're just like, oh, I have to send them back home? I've been a mentor for a long time, and one of the biggest battles that I've ever had to fought is knowing that these children who, you know, who I've been entrusted with, they're going home to families who don't have the same belief system about ownership, about failure, about not punishment, but really helping people to understand and navigate that. So you're working with these young precious minds, but you're competing with what's happening in the household. How does that show up, whether it's in your curriculum or just your engagement with the parents? And, like, what does that look like across the board?

It's all about building trust, building a relationship. So from the very beginning, you know, I had to teach my parents, they have to be able to trust me. I let them know, if you don't trust me, then maybe this is not the right place for you.

So you're teaching the parents as well? Which is.

Yes, I always say I'm teaching my parents sometimes first, then I'm teaching my students. You know, you teach people how to treat you at the end of the day. So I think that a lot of times with my parents, if they have any questions or concerns, I let them know. They can call me 1001 times a day. They can text me 1001 times a day. Doesn't mean I'm going to answer every single text, but just know that I will respond to you through the platform. We have an app now that we can communicate with our parents.

Oh, that's great.

So we can let the parents know what's going on on throughout the day. Even before that, I think that I used to message my parents, letting them know how their students are doing, letting them know that they're having a really stressful morning. And if they've been crying for over two hours, that's something that I would have implemented in that situation.

They're having a bend. They have a bend right out of preschool.

I wouldn't have let you cry for two, three hours. We had to figure something out. But those are different things that I do to try to make sure that my parents feel comfortable and my students feel comfortable. But it's really interesting because once my students come into my household, my biological kids get jealous. And sometimes my students are more comfortable without my kids there. So, like, during the summertime, for example, our space is combined. So it's interesting when my infants are looking at my kids, like, why are you trying to take my attention away from me? But I think you have to make everyone comfortable. That's what it boils down to. Building a rapport and being honest. Even when things are not going good, you have to be honest with them.

Yeah.

You know, we talk a lot about the education system in general in America and how some of the structural things sets up, you know, people in poverty and people of color for failure of a very high magnitude. So when you hear any success stories, like, how does that feel to know that you're countering that narrative?

It's very motivating. I want to keep building. When I hear these stories, I want to make sure that we're doing right by the directors who are on the platform and the parents on the platform. But I just want, like, this insatiable desire of more. Like, how can we make this bigger?

And as an entrepreneur, how do you think about that? You know, the. I want to grow the platform. I want every child having access to this opportunity with keeping the program really high quality, because it seems like that's a real tension because not everybody can do this. Like, how do you make sure that every teacher, every director is of that quality while reaching the whole world?

So Sherry was one of the early directors on the Wonder School platform. So her and I worked actually really closely to build her school. And so I know very intimately all of the different challenges and opportunities that go into creating a high quality program and finding a director who can create a high quality program. And when we were raising our series A, Jeff Jordan introduced me to Brian Chesky at Airbnb. And Brian, you know, and I got on a call, and he's like, look, all right, you're raising this round. Congratulations. You've been able to figure out how to get here, and now your job is to build the company that can take this idea and make it larger. And a lot of that goes into focusing on the people that you bring into the company and how you work with those people to build out the idea. And so what I really focus on is hiring the right people, training them the right way, and spending a lot of time working with folks inside of the company to understand the vision. So we have an education team that works with anyone who's starting a program on the platform. We inspect their home, we work, we make sure that they have the right motivation to start a program, and then we help them craft their environment. So that's like setting up the different learning areas of the program and working with the director to make sure that they're crafting their environment the right way. And then we work with directors to make sure that they're growing their business not only from an economic standpoint, but also from a quality standpoint. So when I started the company just for some background, I'm like, look, I have this experience starting technology companies and I'm really passionate about this problem, but I'm not an educator. And so our fifth hire is a woman named Mia Pritz, who has a really extensive background in early childhood education. And she worked at a company called cclc and they created Google Daycare, and they created daycares at Pixar and a number of these big technology companies that have like, very demanding parents who expect like the highest of quality. And the idea is, how can we take a lot of those ideas and infuse it into the community of directors that we work with? And so building a team of, you know, really experienced educators who not only have been preschool teachers, but a lot of the directors we work with actually have run their own in home programs as well or have trained individuals to start their own in home programs.

And so is that something you foresee in the future is training other entrepreneurs to really run the programs and set up homes and then that delicate balance between just family life and, you know, running a preschool?

All the above. All the above we had before we even had the app. We also used Slack at the time. A lot of the directors will pull together on this one app. And if you want to vent, you can vent about something. If you have a question about licensing or you have a question about how to deal with a difficult sleeper, a napper, difficult parent, me. Then we would kind of brainstorm. It's interesting, some of the original directors that we first started out with, we kind of would pull together and visit each other's programs and give each other's ideas. One of the first directors that I met, she had a one bedroom apartment at the time. And I was like, how is she doing this out of a one bedroom? And she was already licensed. So she invited me and my son for a play date or two. And we went to her program and I saw how she pretty much made something out of nothing. You would have never even thought. And she was doing pretty well for herself. So well that she ended up opening up her another program. And so she, in her own, she moved into another house. She was able to afford a better house after that. And so I was like, wow, you know, she's doing more with less than I have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it really kind of made me reframe my thinking. And working with what I already had, I thought that I needed to do so much work. That was one of the barriers that I had. I wanted things to look perfect before I open. And then I saw what she was doing. I was like, you know what? I can work with this.

You know, she has five programs now.

I heard.

I heard out of a one bedroom.

She started a one bedroom. And now she has five different homes where she's running different programs today.

How does that work? Like as a daycare? Is she setting them up with other people who are homeowners?

I believe she meets people within her own community and she just helps them walk them through the process.

Yeah. And talking about expansion. So what regions is Wonderschool in? Is it West Coast, East Coast?

Yeah. So we're in four cities now. We're in Denver, New York, San Francisco and la.

Okay.

And when we started, we thought we could just go national really quickly, but what we found is that we needed teams in the different cities to support our directors and support the communities. And so we're taking a much more of a city by city approach now.

Okay, good. But I'm definitely going to advocate for Detroit because that's where I'm from. Push hard to get y' all in the bee. Gotta get that, make that happen. So. No, that's exciting to hear. And you're in la.

Yeah, I was one of the first LA schools.

So now. So now I currently live in LA as well. And the price, the cost of living can be astronomical. So how do you balance that out as an entrepreneur? Saying, I'm a venture off knowing that, you know, the cost of living in LA is kind of crazy and you're betting on yourself, like, how did you break through that, you know?

Well, you know, I have three little people that were depending on me and plus two. So I had to get myself together at the end of the day. It's one of those things where once you start your process out, you have to be practical with yourself. So, like, there was definitely some clients in the beginning that I probably wouldn't have normally accepted now. But at the same time, you know.

When you're like, why wouldn't you accept them? Like, what was up?

Challenging behaviors. Challenging behaviors from not only the child, but from the parent.

Oh, okay.

From here, the parents sometimes have challenging behaviors.

Yeah.

And working through that, I always say, all money is not Good money.

We do.

I mean, just because people will say, oh, I'll pay you. Yeah, we work Friday night. You have to set healthy boundaries. I used to say yes to everything. I would say, oh, can I come five minutes late? Okay. And then one night I had a child till 9:45 at night.

Oh.

And the kid was there at 6:45 in the morning. So I'm like, what time are you going to come? And she's like, I'm not sure. I'm in route, you know, LA traffic. So I mean, by the end of the day, like, I mean, affording your rent is going to be a challenge. So, you know, you can kind of gauge that based upon how much, how many children you need to take based upon that alone. But it's a great way to supplement your income, you know, especially if you're already doing something on the side or if you don't have anything going on on the side. Why not? If you don't have 200 is better than zero.

Yeah, right, absolutely.

You have to start somewhere. But one thing I learned about licensing at this point though, as long as you have less than four children, you're okay. You know, you could probably start off with watching just one child. Right. And see how that works out. And then as you working your way through the licensing process, that's perfectly legal to do one or two children, but once you have four plus, you definitely need to be licensed.

Yeah. One of the things we do with a lot of our directors is we look at how much their rent is, how much they want to earn, and then we help them think about how much to charge to make sure that they cover the cost of being able to operate their business.

So one of the things that popped out to me is like, fair is not option. Right? I have a saying. There's no plan B. It's plan me. We'll make it happen. Figured out no matter what's poppin. But this is actually a question for Ben. Do you think entrepreneurs are born or made?

Yeah, no, I think. Look, I think it's mostly made because nobody knows how to do it. I've never met a natural who comes in and does everything right. You know, everybody comes in and does everything wrong. And then it's a matter of will. And what is true is you can't do it if you don't have the will. And you need unbreakable will. But will and courage are things you develop. You know, you're not necessarily born courageous or like with extreme will. That's something that you can build in yourself. Really what it takes more than anything is you have the courage to not listen to the people that go, wow, that's the stupidest thing in the world. You know, do you have the courage to deal with, like, I could fail and those people are all going to be right and how am I going to feel then? Like, all those kinds of things are always at you as an entrepreneur, but nobody knows how to do it. Chris and I on the ride over were talking about, like, yeah, I don't know a single entrepreneur that's done a good job at executive hiring. Like, who knows how to do that? That's not like, your mom doesn't teach you. This is how you hire a cfo. You know, it's a real thing.

So what are your thoughts on this, Sherry?

I kind of have a different perspective on that because I believe that there's certain children that I see in my program every day that just have a will.

Yeah, yeah, just a will.

Like, they just naturally are just go getters.

Yeah.

You know, and then there's some kids you have to constantly push and you be their cheerleader the whole way through, you know, but you can't teach that.

Leaders and followers.

Chris, what's your experience been?

I agree with both of you. I think a lot of this starts at a really young age. You know, there's a lot of studies that prove that grit, persistence, a number of these things are learned at a really, really young age and can be fostered in preschool. Developing those skills early on are really important to being an entrepreneur. But then once you actually start that company, there's so much failure and so much learning that you have to go through to be able to be successful. And so I think a lot of it's in you, but it's also you have to learn a lot along the way.

All right, great. Well, I would love to thank our guests Chris and Sherry for wonderful conversation, and thank you, essence. Happy 25th anniversary.

Sarah.