Angela Pointer 1/2/2026

Happy New Year! Oh my God! It is 2026 already.

I can't believe it.

This is so awesome. See if I can do— can do the special effects.

Is it gonna work?

There it is.

Oh, I don't know how to do that.

Happy New Year. Yeah, there's that, and I think there's this. Oh, there it is.

See, that's cool.

All right, 2026. Can't believe we're there already. This is crazy. Uh, like, you know, the year went by, but you know what, I gotta tell you, I— this year I don't, I don't want a new year. I want like a gently used year.

A gently used—

yeah, I want like a, like a model, you know, like a 2017, 2018 year, not, not factory fresh because, you know, you gotta break it in, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're so expensive, um, when they come out of this. So yeah, I kind of want— I'm, I'm good with just like a gently used year this year.

Yes. Previously loved.

Previously loved. Yeah, that was a rough couple of years, man, but especially this year is crazy. So I think things are going to be a lot better now and, and settle down.

Yeah.

But, uh, welcome Angela Pointer to our live broadcast. Hopefully the, um, our audience treats you fairly well. Um, yeah, so I'm in the hot seat now. You're in the hot seat.

That's right.

For folks that don't know, Angela is an author who wrote a book about the 24-minute— what's it called?

The 24 Minutes to Win the Day.

24 Minutes to Win the Day. We'll talk a little bit about that. And also, Angela is a registered nurse. I was gonna say nurse, but I caught myself registered because there's a difference.

There is a difference.

Yeah. And so, actually, like You are— I don't want to say still— you are a practicing nurse.

Well, I have a life, right? I have a— yes, I have my registered nurse license. I— that I work— I tell people all the time, I worked really hard for those. Even though I have some other letters behind my name, I worked really hard for that. Yes. So distinction, right?

And it's not theoretical, it's, uh, you know, right? It's real on the front lines.

Yeah, yeah.

High stakes, you know. Taking care of people. And then you went and you wrote this 24 Minute Method. So are you— so like, what happens? Are you still practicing as a nurse? Like, where— no, I'm going somewhere and no, but, but, but if there was like an emergency or whatever, you are able to—

I'm licensed. Yes, I have a license, that type of thing. So I'll tell you, I have been— this year makes year— I think it's— I'm losing count. I think it's 28 as a registered nurse, because, you know, after you say it for so long, I'm like, oh my God, I started when I was 2, you know. But I— so 28 years, um, this will be going into year 29 as a registered nurse. Uh, guess how many years of those 28 years was actually practicing at the bedside? I always am curious. Nope.

25?

Nope. Okay, I'm just going to tell you, 18 months as a bedside— in the hospital—

bedside nurse, right?

Bedside nurse in the hospital.

And the rest of the time you did other, other things?

Yeah, so I did. Yeah, so I'll just walk you through. So 18 months at a hospital bedside, like normally people think of working in a hospital. The next, um, 9 years was in various aspects of home health and hospice. And I always say that because I've come full circle as a hospice nurse. I have taking care of patients. I'm in their homes in hot— with hospice, and I've also had hospice with my father who passed away in 2018. So I've seen the— seen it from full circle. So I've done that. And then people ask me quite often, well, how in the world did you get into recruiting? Because I have been— you answered, right, about 20. That's right.

But you're also the president-elect of the NACR, the National Association of Healthcare Recruiting. So I mean That's quite the busy schedule there.

Yes, yes, NACCR, oh, it's just my, this is a special place in my heart. I joined the organization in 2010. Yeah, 2010, so that's been about 15 years ago. And just last year actually joined the board as president-elect. So I'm excited about the organization, all the great things that we're doing and a lot of the connections that I've made and continue to make to that, to this point. But going back to, we were talking about a little bit of my journey, I think, 'cause I can go on rabbit trails. Yeah, right. So, you know, the first basically 9 years or so has been, you know, patient care, but then I stumbled into recruiting 20 years ago. So you were talking about the number 20. So I have been in recruiting for 20 years, and I can remember that because my son is 20 years old. He will be turning 20 this month. So I was recruited to be a recruiter by a nurse as well. She recruited me at the home health and hospice company I worked for, and when she had— she moved on to a CHC CHRO role at a hospital in the area. And she contacted me, and when I was on maternity leave, to ask, hey, I'm looking for a nurse to hire as a nurse recruiter and thought about you, and the rest is history. So to this point, I still thank her for, for introducing me to the world of recruiting. I found my niche. I used to say this when I was leading teams, is that, you know, I get to— I do a different type of nursing. I get to lead the people, to find the people, to take care of the people. So, um, I have enjoyed doing that. So I've been, uh, started out as a nurse recruiter. I'm recruiting actually in Atlanta, um, Shelly. That sadly, that hospital doesn't exist anymore, um, but it's where I, you know, cut my teeth in recruiting and, um, have started as a nurse recruiter. Then that particular hospital, um, being— I became the sole recruiter recruiting for everything in the hospital and Then I was recruited. That's the story of my life. I won't go into a lot of that. Recruited to out of state, to North Carolina, was a nurse recruiter there and actually did a little stint as a nurse manager of the internal staffing resource pool there and then came back as a manager of nurse recruitment at that system. And then I've been doing leading TA teams since then until about 7 months ago when I took a brave step of moving into the world of solopreneurship. I know you and I were chatting briefly before got on. This isn't for everybody. And so I know sometimes people will ask, well, how in the world, why did you do that? We can maybe talk about that a little bit later. But that's the story. How about that?

That's the story. And you're sticking to it, right?

Sticking to it.

Yes, you can do it. So, all right, there's a couple of things to unpack there. The 4 Ds, the, you know, the minute, 24-minute phone screen, and something that you call DISCO, DISCO.

Yeah.

Why don't we start with Something that I think is going to be, you know, applicable to everybody— nurses, non-nurses, nurse recruiters, non-nurse recruiters— and that's, and that's the, um, the, the productivity question. Everyone talks about more time, better tools, longer focus blocks, but your method is 24 minutes, which is very interesting because you don't know this about me, but I have 25-minute sets that I talk about. My sourcing set and my sourcing block that I talk about, uh, is 25 minutes. So that— I'm really curious what that— what that is. But your method is a 24-minute method. What's the biggest lie modern productivity culture tells us about that your method just directly challenges head-on?

What is the base lie, you think?

It's the biggest lie.

Biggest lie.

Yeah, your 24-minute method is like, you know, debunking.

So one thing I will say, kind of, and it goes into this too, and I talk about it in the book, is the myth of multitasking. People feel like they can do so many things at one time, and you know this, and we all know this, technically you can't. There's no such thing as multi— truly multitasking.

No, I like to call it hyper-threading, right? Hyper-threading.

Exactly.

Do this, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. Do A, do B, do C, go back to A, go back to B, go back to C, right? That really A, B, and C at the same time. It's just going back and forth pretty quickly.

Exactly. But at the end of the day, you really are only going to be focusing on one thing at a time. And so really— and I'll tell you kind of how the whole thing, um, came about, if you don't mind, because it was really interesting because some people write about things that, you know, they're— that's why they have their PhDs, you know, they have their PhDs and they've studied it for years, all this kind of stuff, and they're an expert. Um, this is something that I'm living, and it literally started As I mentioned to you, 7 months ago I launched my new business and I had a very interesting experience. My very first day, quote unquote, in business, started my, you know, had my, um, got my email up for my business and my new email account. And guess what? I had a clear inbox and I had a clear calendar.

Oh yeah, yeah, inbox zero attained, right?

And I'll be honest with you, I haven't had that in a a while because that lasted what, 5 minutes? No, it is. Yeah, yeah, last 5 minutes. Yeah, because even in my last couple of, um, organizations that, you know, worked for and worked with, I even start— I started day one with emails already and stuff on my calendar. So that's true, it was weird to, uh, and I actually took— I have a screenshot of my Outlook that day of literally nothing. And so clear. And so, um, I started thinking about, okay, how am I going to fill that time? Because now the world is different for me And you know, I'm not going to be twiddling my thumbs because just because if you work for yourself or you're a solopreneur or self-employed, you still work. Is that right, Shelly?

I still—

you still work? Yeah, we still work, right?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's still work, there's still things to be done.

Yeah, I got work to do.

I got a bunch of work to do, right?

And I'm doing it right now. I'm multitasking. I'm just kidding.

No, but, but you're, you're doing the work, right? We're doing—

yeah, I'm doing the work. Yep, I am, right?

And so So now you have to kind of frame it differently. And so what you're going to be doing, so I actually, one of the things I do like to do is walk, and I walk in my neighborhood. It's therapeutic and a lot of other reasons. And literally this idea came to my head about, I don't even know exactly how it came, about 24 minutes. And I'm like, as far as a framework in time and blocks. So I came back and did a little research on um, microblocks and, you know, different things like that. And there is a— there's quite a bit out there on 25. So, um, but I'm a little different. If you— I think you might know about me or we'll learn about me, you know. I don't want to do just what everybody's doing. So I'm like, has anybody written anything about—

I don't know if everybody's doing the 25-minute method. I still teach it all the time. Right, right.

And I'm not debunking it. Don't get me— we're not going to—

no, I think it's very similar. I think we have it.

It's a similar concept because actually now I think about it, you know, I feel like I wrote this book, but I'm like I, um, you know, even have a chapter in here that is on why 24 and not 25. And for me, it's, you know, I am— I like, no, uh, meaning and significance. And so I was even looking at— and how it started for me is looking at the fact that we have 24 hours a day, and that is something that regard— that we all get the same amount of. Nobody— you get more— you don't get 25 hours in a day and I get 24, somebody else gets 23. We all get the same amount of time. And it's interesting, what— how we feel it is how we choose to. So the first thing I started looking at is, okay, I get 24 hours in a day, let me focus on my first 24 minutes. And what do I do in my first 24 minutes— say that real fast— of the day? So it started kind of— this framework for me started with being very intentional about what I do in the first 24 minutes of my day and then what I do in the last 24 minutes of my day. And then it kind of morphed from there. And I actually even got to the place of— and I do talk about this a little bit in the book— about, um, I began doing 6 very purposeful 24-minute blocks in my day.

Okay.

And so you find, like, I had— it's not really worth mentioning here. I had my every— it's going to be individual to you. What are— for me, it was the 6 must-dos, the important things for me in my day that I needed to do, and I planned that out, my 20— my 6 24-minute blocks. So basically, and you want to talk about the 4 D's in the book, and I talk about it in the introduction. I don't want to make this all about the book. We'll talk about— I'll mention this and we can talk about some other things, but the 4 D's refers to kind of— there's a— for each of the chapters, there's Discover, Define, Do and Debrief. So it's about, um, kind of discovering— there's a lot of person— I like to talk, I mean, even being on here now, tell stories. So there's some stories of my experiences in life, not just in the last 7 months, um, of being in this, uh, business, but then, um, also just things that I've learned and kind of retrospect at this time. So I talk about all those things and then actually give some very practical um, tips because that's the do section. So every chapter— there's 24. I'm very purposeful. So it's 24 Minutes to Win the Day. There's 24 chapters, and each chapter has a do section of things that you can do. So there's a lot of things around, um, kind of that 24-minute method.

Now, can you read a chapter in 1 minute?

Um, probably not. Probably not.

That'd be too much to ask, right? 24 Minutes to Win the Day, 1 chapter a minute.

There you go. Day 1. You can't do it. And so one of the things that I write, and like how to use it, is there's 24— as I mentioned, there's 24 chapters. I wouldn't recommend trying— I don't think you can read it in a minute. Maybe.

Yeah, I don't know about it.

It's not— I mean, they're not that long because that's the whole thing. The book is not, you know, because I'm like, you think 24 chapters, they're short. Because I actually don't, you know, I'm not going to be an avid— I'm not quite an avid reader yet, working on that. And then I guess I did so much reading in grad school that, um, it's kind of different. It's sitting a little different with me. But what I also like for people to do, and what I like to do sometimes with certain books, um, is actually take it all in. So not just read it cover to cover, start, you know, but what I do recommend is read a chapter, kind of take it, do the exercise, kind of mull over a little bit, and then before moving on to your next one. But I will say this, I, you, I don't think you can read a chapter in a minute, but you definitely can read a chapter in less than 24 minutes. How about that?

There you go. So I'd like that, 24 minutes per chapter. Awesome.

Yeah.

All right.

And it's actually— I'll say one, I promise, I think I already said it's the last thing, but this is the real last thing. And one of the things I even did too, and I think I'll talk about this, is many of the chapters I kind of wrote at least the initial, um, the initial draft in 24. I would— or my writing periods, because that's one of the things I do, 24 minutes of writing. So I'd write for 24 minutes and then pop step. So I really wrote in 24-minute increments.

Oh, cool. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. So for— so my— just to compare them, so my 25-minute sets, um, are— it's, it's something that, that I adopted or adapted from, um, a couple of, uh, actually different research studies that were conducted. There was a research study that was conducted on attention and ADHD. And I'm— because, you know, there's actually some, like, there's some very legitimate, um, causes that are physiological, and there are some key differences in the, you know, the ADHDer's brain. And so I was, I was researching that. So there was like this ADHD study, you know, part 1, and part 2 was a sleep study or a study about sleep and the, and the effect of sleep that interestingly, um, one of those weird things that happens in science is they corroborated each other. So the conclusions from both research studies had similarities. And here's where they— and here's where they conclude, or where they— part of what they did to study both ADHD and sleep deprivation, basically, was to run a test on participants that would— it was, it's a button that you click, and they would show a dot on the screen, somewhere on the screen. You know what, you've seen this test.

Yeah, I have.

They use it for all kinds of other things. So it was a pretty standard scientific test. And they would push the button when they would see the dot, you know, and that was it. There was a control group and so on.

Right.

So the result of that test in both studies was very conclusive in this one regard. Coincidentally, not because they both were thinking about— that wasn't the hypothesis, but it was conclusive in the regard that it doesn't matter how much you slept, how well you slept, how little you slept. So your, your quality and duration of sleep didn't matter, um, in this regard. And even whether or not you were sleep deprived didn't matter. However, all stages of sleep deprivation, whether you were alert or sleepy or whatever, they all had this thing in common, and that is that for the first 25 minutes of the test, the performance was at a particular level, and then after 25 minutes, it sharply dropped, and it didn't come back regardless of the length of the test. So basically people were at their best no matter what their status was. So you could be at your best when you're sleepy, which is not very good, right? Or you could be at your best when you're wide awake and refreshed. But doesn't matter what the condition was, you were at your best for the first 25 minutes only. After that, that can depreciate it. So even if you started at awesome, at 20 minutes, at 26 minutes, 27 minutes, you started—

yeah.

And the same thing happened with ADHD. That it didn't matter what type of ADHD, what the conditions were, whether they had music or were stimulated or what— all they all had the same thing. For the first 25 minutes, they could focus, and then it just dropped off. So it is proven without a doubt that after 25 minutes— now it could be 23, it could be 24, right?

Yeah, just pick a number.

Yeah, yeah, but 26 or whatever, 26 and a half, your ability to focus immediately starts declining. Now for some people, it goes bloom For some people, it just sort of, you know, tapers off, but it never gets any better. So the conclusion is, after 25 minutes of activity, take a break, right? Here's the other interesting thing that happened from both those research studies. They both realized that the rest period or the break period did not matter as long as it was more than 3 minutes. So anything less than 3 minutes people's performance didn't return to whatever it was before. It had to be more than 3 minutes. And if there were repeated tests in the same wake period, that after a couple of them, 2 or 3, they needed to take a 7-minute break. So the recommendation is to take at least a 3-minute break, but at most a 7-minute break, because after 7 minutes, it doesn't matter whether it's 10 or 50 or another day, right? Between 3 and 7 was enough to get you reset, right? So 5-minute, you know, just call it 5-minute break. So the 25-minute method is every half hour, 25 minutes of focus, 5-minute break, 5 minutes. And if you're gonna do more, my rule is if you're gonna do more than 2 sets back to back, so if you have a 1-hour period of Set A, 30 minutes, 25 break, 25 break, then make at least a 7-minute break before your next block.

That's your next block. Yeah, that's it.

That's the whole—

very similar, very similar. Um, because I actually have things about kind of that cycle, just what you talked about, the focus, the focus time, the break time, and those are, um, very key. I think it's Pomodoro, um, Pomodoro, Pomodoro. Yeah, yeah, Pomodoro method, right, exactly. Yeah, but there was something that you said that, um sparked something. I know we didn't talk about it, but I just want to mention it because I'm like, this is my soapbox, right? You talked about sleep, and this is something that I'm on. It's not really recruiting related per se, but I'm kind of on a bit of my own personal campaign to rid us from that phrase or question, what keeps you up at night? Do you ask that question? I—

when I prep people for coming on the show and they ask me what to talk about, I say talk about whatever is— whatever you're passionate about, or whatever gets you out of bed in the morning, or whatever keeps you up at night. But it's, uh, it's like, you know, the whole, the, the, the whole point of that is to you to say, look, let's talk about what's hot, what's on your mind, right? If it's keeping you up, or if it's getting you out of bed, or it's something you're passionate about, It's kind of the same idea, right? So yeah, I know what you mean by the keeping you up at night, because I mean, the reality is that really nothing work-related—

nothing's worth keeping me up.

That was— yeah, nothing related should keep you— but the truth is that your work stress may make it so that you have restless sleep or, or stay up later than you would, you know.

But yeah, yeah, those are things, yeah, and keeping you up. And then, and I know It's semantics. I don't think people really truly mean it. But sometimes I think what happens is subconsciously, is there a thought that particularly whether you're a recruiter or a leader or anything, that you're supposed to be up at night and you're not supposed to sleep. I actually commented, someone posted this a couple of days ago, maybe even yesterday, and I made a comment because it strikes a nerve with me or a chord whenever I see people talk about it. I'm like, yes, yes, somebody's talking about the importance of sleep because a, um, you're no, you're no good without rest.

Yeah, some rest.

Yeah. So I tell people, yeah, when they ask me how much, um, what keeps me up at night, and I answer nothing. Um, because I now, with that said, I think what you're meaning with what the meaning when people ask what keeps you up at night or whatever is what's concerned, right? What are concerns? I'm gonna be— I'm human just like anybody else. I have things that are stressful or concerning and that kind of thing. But one of the things that's super important to me is I'm not going to be my best if I'm not rested. And I will tell you, there is a lot of power. I know there's research to this too, which we won't get into, but for me, just even the lived experience of, I know what it's like to get sleep and to sleep well at night, wake up and be refreshed. And I know what it's like not to, and getting sleep is better. It definitely does impact. And one of the things that I'm learning too is, You know, I do get, I'm getting older and as you get older, there is a benefit to getting more sleep. And so I'm seeing that in my personal life. But anyway, thanks for letting me take my little rabbit trail on sleep. And thank you for sharing kind of those studies from a sleep perspective and ADHD. So it's very interesting. I knew, I know, and I mentioned too that there's, you know, there's a lot of people way smarter than me that have studied these types of things in terms of the timing and things like that. But for me, it's not so much— and I will say this— it's not— while there is a certain element of the timing of 24 and that type of thing, but it's really more about intentionality is where I would probably leave, leave you with, is being super intentional about your time. And so that's one thing I do now, like my Calendly appointments, whenever I schedule discovery calls, they are intentionally branded as 24 minutes. Now with Calendly, it's kind of hard to do it that way, but as far as it literally be on all the calendar for 24 minutes. But if you go to book an appointment with me, you're going to get my— you go to my page that says your intentional 24 minutes. So what it does is just helps me to be very intentional about our conversation. And I actually had two 24-minute calls, um, earlier this morning, so Oh, and thanks, I see you're putting my LinkedIn there.

Oh yeah, scroll down.

Yeah, that's a good way to, to get a hold of me. Yeah.

Yeah, OK. Yeah, so we talked about the 4 Ds and the 24-Minute Method. And also, you know, the kind of the answer to my question was, you know, what is, what is the biggest lie that you're solving? And so to summarize, the 4 Ds and the 24-Minute Method, What would you say is, is, is so different from the typical advice about what you're talking about? So what is, what is the biggest difference between your 24-minute method and, you know, and, and that, or what, what is the bad advice people get that you fix?

That's what I want. Yeah, bad advice, um, that your method fixes. Yeah, yeah, I think, and I'm gonna kind of maybe harp a little bit more on this doing more with less, right?

Okay, got it.

Right, is that, and at the end of the day, we still have the same amount of time. So it's not so much about do you need more time or do you need less time, it's about being very purposeful with the time that you do have and being very intentional. And so while, you know, as I said earlier, it's not necessarily about 24 to the letter and to the number per se, but it's just more about the intentionality around it, and it helps you to be more focused. One of the things that I'm working on literally this morning is even a framework or a template for a 24-minute phone screen with recruiters. Just thinking about just timing because— and one thing I think you and I were talking about a little bit before we got on is this whole thought process now around AI. How many times have you heard AI in 2020? 5.

So much that I'm numb to it.

Yeah, we're numb, right? And so you're hearing AI all the time. And so one of the things you also hear about, and that I know there's mixed feelings about, um, AI, AI and phone screens. Um, you know, yeah, there is.

You're talking about doing a candidate phone screen using AI, but why don't you tell us what the mixed feelings are?

Yeah, right. So here's the thought, because I, I know, um, I was in a, um, I guess maybe a roundtable or something recently, and the comment came up, or the question came up, kind of, um, uh, off the cuff. And so kind of some of the initial reaction from— this is a group of recruiters— is, oh, absolutely not. We, you know, that is the phone screen is the job of the recruiter.

It is, but.

Right.

But wait a minute.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

But the AI— so these AI screens are not the recruiter phone screen?

No, no, no. I'm talking about the recruiter phone screen. Yeah.

AI screens are not recruiter phone screens. They're pre-evaluation. So it's replacing the application process, right, where you might fill out a form. So I think the way— the right way to use it is normally you go on a website and you apply for a job and they ask all these things that you got to fill out. You got to fill them out. You know, it's the clunky— it's like, oh my God, they're asking me for my— for this and that and the other. The AI screen is more of like that preliminary chat where, um, and it could— a lot of times it's done really well through chatbots where they're like, what job are you interested in? Great, what's your name? What's your email? It's that. It's not a full time.

Well, no, it is actually. I'll push— I'll push back just a little bit on that because there is— there are actually a couple of— two that I know of in particular that it really— it's beyond that. That's one thing.

That's an interview, not a—

right, it's— but it's for the recruiter. It's, it's in the place of the recruiter.

So that's where— tell me about that.

That's what I'm talking about.

What are the mixed feelings on that?

Yeah, so there is a thought process around should that be done by AI or should that be done by a recruiter? Because what happens is the pros and cons, the people that are using it, um, you know, they— there's, from what I understand, because I personally haven't used it yet, I've done some demos and seen some things, and I know of a couple of organizations that have implemented this primarily in roles where there's high supply and lower demand. You have so many candidates, and this is where maybe the pro comes in, is a way for a candidate to feel like they're more than a number and that they actually had an opportunity to talk with someone, whether it's actually an AI agent, but they actually talked and had a conversation with someone. About the role and all that type of thing. Basically, in this instance, what the organizations that are using this, it's their way of now taking that information to decide who's going to move on to the next stage. With that, I think what's— It's a filter. It's a filter. Candidates, to my understanding, they do have to opt in and they understand this is an AI conversation, so they know that. Some of the— I'll go on the the pros, um, is I think from a candidate perspective, it feels like you're getting, you're getting a number, you're getting, um, a touch point with the organization. I think the other thing becomes in the world of timing and scheduling and things of that nature, you can do it, you can schedule your phone screen with the AI agent, um, at 2 o'clock in the morning if you want. You know, recruiters are not going to be working for the most part at 2 o'clock in the morning. So there's Maybe there's pros from that perspective, from a productivity and efficiency and that type of thing. But this is where maybe some of the cons come in. I think some of it is there's just that initial thought process from the recruiter that you're taking my job. AI is replacing me, that type of thing. It may feel like it's creeping in that area. What I would say, I'm not going to say one way or the other. As there's pros and there's cons, and I think it depends on how you're using it. I know for— we are in this— this world is definitely very relational, and recruiting is, you know, I always talk about my 3 Rs for recruiting. It's relationships, and that's always number 1, resources, and results. And so in this relationship mode that we're in, that's important. That's a human interaction that you don't really have Maybe some people might think they have a relationship with their AI, but you know, it's just— it's— yeah, I see the eyes. I've seen— I'm just thinking about some crazy— I don't know if it's a movie or something. Oh yeah, yeah, where people like, they are having all kind— you know, they're whatever, um, with their AI.

But did you know, I just had this conversation with someone, um, there was a mo—

there—

I shouldn't say— there is a movie Um, with, um, oh, famous actor, famous actor, famous actor. Um, Al Pacino. There's a movie, 2002. Hmm, 2002, called Simone, but it's spelled S-I-M-O-N-E, so it's Sim One. and it's all about an AI, a completely AI person that the media falls in love with, and everybody thinks that they're a real person. This is 2002.

That's what I'm gonna say, 2002.

Yeah, that's what, 24 years ago, and that already existed back then, that idea of that. The idea— think about it.

Yeah, but you're— yeah, so I think that, you know, it, it's I'm not gonna come here and, you know, and say one way or the other. I think that, you know, as with anything, you evaluate what works for you and that type of thing. But I just think it's interesting what, um, what's possible now.

And so are you saying that, that, uh, the interview, the, the recruiter interview, the recruiter phone screen with AI is or isn't a viable option?

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the infamous 'it depends,' right?

So it depends on what, right?

It depends on, um, what's your goal and what's your aim.

Okay, what's an aim where you would use it that it would be good?

Yeah, I think one could be— and I think I may have mentioned it, um, before— is from a candidate experience perspective for roles where—

where you— yeah, oh, at least I got the ability to—

right, then you feel like they were able to talk to someone. They talked to someone even though they, they know it was an AI.

Like they made it.

I felt— I got, you know, I did something versus the Black— you know, people talk about the infamous Black hole, so they feel like information— there is— yeah. So I mean, yeah, from that standpoint, and then maybe from the standpoint of, um, recruiter efficiency and just with time when you have large candidate pools. I have seen— I know, um, I've seen candidate pools in the hundreds, and then actually I can't even believe it. Once I saw a rec that had 1,000 candidates in it, and I'm like, oh my goodness. So I think from a standpoint of being able to work smart, because we know we're already talking about efficiencies and things like that, and so there's only so much time in a day. We all get the same amount of time, but how do you work smart with that? And so that you're able to get in front of people quickly, be able to screen down, that type of thing. So I think in those, in instances it could be beneficial. Like I said, it could, it depends. But you also want to be mindful of really being able to have those human connections at the beginning when there needs to be. I think for where there's higher supply than demand, maybe that works. But in situations where the supply is less and the demand is high, you're wanting to get in front of them. That experience is a little different. That's my two cents.

So if it's, um, you won't normally— wouldn't be able to get access to a recruiter because of the volume of applicants, um, it would make sense. But if you're already having a hard time as a recruiter actually getting somebody to, you know, on the phone, then it— automating, it's, it kind of, you know, I think it's— I want to say logical, but if you don't do phone screens at all, you can introduce AI as phone screening Yeah, because it adds an extra level of engagement and allows you to, you know, provide that access to candidates. But if you are already doing the phone screens, and you are having a hard time filling your calendar, in other words, you can't find enough candidates to phone screen, right, then why would you want to automate it in the first place?

Exactly.

It's not a big part of your day anyway, right?

Because if it's not a time, right, it's not a a time saver. It's not an issue of time. You need, you need to be in front of every candidate you can get in front of. So I see that from that standpoint, that, you know, as with anything, there's not one— we haven't invented the secret sauce, either one of us, have we, Shelley?

Not for this.

Not for this.

Yeah, secret sauce for ribs.

Yeah, you got— oh, you got a secret option. Don't get me started on, um, on ribs, you know.

Yeah, no, I'm not getting it. We talked about this at dinner the other night. Yeah, we did. Oh yeah, we did.

Oh yeah, we had conversations about ribs.

But let's take, um, let's take it back to, you know, so we talked about productivity, um, and time blocking and why time blocking systems usually die. Uh, well, we didn't really talk about, but we talked about a lot of time blocking is like block off an hour. That doesn't really work, right? You need to block off that 25-minute plus the break. So I, I'd say block off 30, but you know Right. So one of the things you can do with calendars, here's a little hack. A lot of these calendars, like, for example, for me on Google, I can send someone a link that allows them to book themselves on my calendar. And I have different kinds of links depending on the meeting, and those have different rules. So for example, if it's a phone screen, the rule of that meeting request is that it will schedule a 5-minute, you know, gap, um, after the— before and after. So if you book that meeting at, let's say, 2 PM, it blocks my calendar from 1:55 to 2:35 so that it gives you those 5 minutes to prep and 5 minutes to take notes before my next meeting. Otherwise, you'll end up in a 2 to 2:30, 2:30, right?

That's fine.

Online calendars will help you do the same thing with your own time as well. But I wanted to, um, talk about why it actually works to do these 24-minute blocks, especially for people that are overloaded, burned out, and, um, or, you know, people who already are or think they are good at managing their time. Why do you think it's—

it wor—

why do you think this is an improvement even if you're already good at time management? Why do you think this is an improvement if you are burned out? Why does this work?

Yeah, good question. Because for me, it's not as much about the actual 24 minutes themselves. Like, it was at 24, 25. It's not about—

I mean, even though, yes, it's not about the time.

It's not necessarily— it's about two things. It's about blocks and doing things in blocks, and particularly small blocks.

So being intentional.

Yeah, being— it's really more about being intentional and being purposeful. And another thing is, you talked about, you know, there are people that are very good at time management, that's not something for them, this is not something they need help with per se, but I think sometimes when you look at what are you doing in your time, so one of the exercises I have in the book is kind of a time audit, looking at what, and you know, I do this with a 24-minute timer, 24-minute timer, look at your calendar the previous day, all the things that you did, kind of putting them into, was it meaningful? Was it reactionary, or was it reaction or noise? Then it also helps you to think about how you're using your time. When you, and when you mentioned about back to back, so, you know, I've done this before. This is one thing that I don't miss. You know, I was saying earlier that I started my business and with my new email account and, you know, clear calendar and everything. One thing that I don't want, I didn't want to get back into is being booked back to back or then being triple and quadruple booked. I lived that land for quite some time, especially when you move up in leadership, you're just constantly in meetings all the time. And you're back to back and it just doesn't help you. And I remember, and I'll be honest, I was guilty. It's been a while since I've done full desk recruiting full-time because of being in leadership. But I love to recruit, so I love recruiting. But having those back-to-back phone screens, that doesn't help. I like, because as you mentioned, of being able to use the calendar tools. Google does that. I think Outlook has something different. There's a lot of different ones that have things that you can use because it helps you to be intentional and also give the people, give your full attention to that time and be mindful. This is the other thing that I think is important too is, honoring people's time. Um, and so I'm a real stickler to appointments and I'm starting on time and ending on time and be doing that. And so if you're constantly back to back, what happens when something— when you run over once, you know, that's your day, right? Because you— one minute, one, one meeting over 5 minutes, it's a constant domino effect. And particularly— and to me, I don't care whether it's a phone screen with a candidate that you, you know, a high demand, low supply role, or a high supply, low demand role, still regardless of who it is, and that is giving the individuals their attention that they need. And so I think it's crucial to start on time, to end on time, and to be mindful of their time. So I'm sorry, I think I went out on a rabbit trail, but you were asking about what Remind me, you were talking about what is—

what is— so why, why does this work?

Why does it work? Yeah.

Yeah. Why does it work even when people are already good at time management or burnt out?

Yeah. Why does it cut through the, you know, I think for burnout, it kind of gets you back to thinking about what it is that you're doing and be— and really thinking about how you're spending your time. And so that's what I mentioned about doing the the time audit to look at what are the things that you're doing, because we all have things that are critical to what we need to do as far as our mission, the mission, our personal mission, our organization's mission, things of that nature. But one thing I also think about too is, and I tend to get this thing messed up sometimes, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. You know, you have the thing that I survived the meeting that should have been an email. Did I say that right?

Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, this meeting should have been an email, right?

Right. And so, and you have— and I've seen it go both ways because to me you have a meeting that should have been an email, and then sometimes you have an email or series of emails that needs to be a meeting.

Yeah, it's way too many emails. This needs to be an email, right?

Because kind of a rule— and I don't really have— but after you've gone back and forth, to me after 2 times it's like at this point it's time to have a conversation because we're not going to do this back and forth in email. I think that's important too. I think it helps from a standpoint of being intentional about what you're doing, aligning yourself with your purpose. I talk a lot about that just in my life in general because one of the things as we were talking about my journey is I became very intentional about my personal mission. Now I can articulate it. Have you ever done this? I know probably I could think of two different sessions or things that I've been in in the last five years where you do an exercise to create your personal mission statement. Have you ever done those?

Yeah, I've done that.

And I've done those, you know, years, you know, probably within the last five years at least, maybe a couple of times. And I'm just gonna be honest with me, you do it, you do the exercise, and you don't— for me, I never really came back to it. It didn't stick for me. Maybe it did for you or some other people, but I haven't done that. But I've gotten very intentional within the last, like I said, probably 7 months ago around my mission. And so, and I articulate it and I remind myself of it every day, and that is to use the time, talent, and treasure that I've been given to make a meaningful impact in the life of others. And so that is my North Star, sort of like my guiding, what my principle for me personally. And then I look at how am I spending my time, and then my treasure, and my talent. Particularly on the time, the talent, and the treasure, we all have different amounts of that. But from a time standpoint, we all have the same amount. I'm like, is this meaningful? Because another thing I would recommend too for individuals, whether you're great at time management, whether you need help with time management, or anywhere in between, is as you're looking at things, are the things you're doing aligning to what your mission is? The mission of your, um, your personal mission or the mission of your organization. You know, we love, um, I don't know about your experiences in organizations, but I know with mine, um, we love meetings. We love meetings. I can tell you, in healthcare, um, we love to meet. And then you have the meetings before the meetings and the meetings after the meetings.

And then you know what is really funny that I've noticed is they— people still expect you to have the same amount of time to do your job. So they still think that you're going to do your 40 hours a week, even though— so if you think like you got 20 hours of meetings this week, that only leaves you 20 hours of work, but they expect you to still work 40 hours, especially when you do virtual work. Not that you can do that as a nurse, but so now basically 40 hours of work and 20 hours of meetings. That's what I—

yeah, and I think that, and particularly, you know, because I, I've heard, you know, some people people may think that, oh, that's what leaders do, you run meetings all day. Um, and then you still have things, you know, because the, the further you progress in your leadership in terms of position— I'm gonna talk about— I'll say this, I always— one of my little Angela-isms is that, you know, not everybody with the— not, uh, how do I say it— not everyone with the title is a leader, and not all leaders are true with all leaders. I'm just totally butchering it up. I can't get it out right today.

But just because you have leadership title, it doesn't mean you're a leader, right?

And the other thing I'll say is, and you don't have to have a leadership title to be a leader. That's what I'm saying. I'm sorry, I couldn't get it quite out, but you, you understood my point. And so like, what people sometimes— the thought is that you're, you're, you're in meetings, you're leading, and that's a part of leading. And yes, that's true. And so while you may not have as many tactical things that you're responsible for, you still have things to do. And then most of the time meetings do require prep work and/or require— there's, um, action items, right? And things to do. So you're right, you have to have the time. Like, I did a, um, but on my own time study once— um, actually I've done this several times— of looking at evaluating my meetings. And, um, you know, especially— it really doesn't matter which organization— but, you know, looking at How much time do I spend in meetings, and particularly sometimes in meetings with some of the same people on the same topics? I'm like, are we going to beat this down to a pulp here? Just really thinking about who it all needs to be in the meetings, what are we meeting about, and then can we be efficient with it versus having to have so many different meetings. I can be on my soapbox talking about meetings.

I got you.

I think you get the gist.

Now I want to switch a little bit, um, with a few minutes that we got left and ask you about the, um, the tension between identities. And like, I have this, and I think, you know, you probably do too. Um, so, you know, I have this identity as a, as a consultant and speaker in the industry, and I also have this identity as like you know, the guy that does this job. So I got a job, you know, and I have this online identity, and there's, there's a, there's a tension there. But you have, uh, your, your two identities are even more further apart. At least the job that I do is related to what I do, but you have this identity as a nurse and a recruiter, and you're not actually practicing as a nurse, but you have this identity as a nurse. So how, how have you, how have you, I guess, you've chosen to stay a nurse and become an author and become a recruiter, right? How do you manage that tension between those, like, almost different people?

Yeah, you know what, I've never really thought about it that way as tension, but it's not a bad way. I mean, but, or just the difference, right?

Because it's not, it's not bad tension, right?

But it's just different. Yeah.

So yeah, it's two identities.

Yeah.

And you have to, you can't, you can't be a nurse and a recruiter because you're, you know, I mean, if you're, if what you do for a living every day is you help people get hired, then you're, then your, your job is recruiter, but you have this other identity. That is very much— you can activate nurse mode instantly, right? So, so it's still part of you. How do you manage that tension?

Yeah, I think for me it's more of a— it's kind of different. Um, you know, I went into— and we do not have time to talk about this, about even how I— why I became a nurse. That'll be another— that's a whole— that's before— that just for that.

We got the after hours. This is the before hours.

Yeah, but this is the before hours. But just think about everyone has a story of why they are doing whatever. And so for nurses, for many nurses, you have your story of why you became a nurse, right? And so mine, you have— there's a story behind that. And for me, it's not so much about the actual practice of nursing, is more as making a difference and how can I make a difference. So the way I look at, as I mentioned before, right, I do in a different way. So I support nursing, but I support the nursing in a different way, um, by making—

because you are a nurse, you also have that perspective. Um, and you know, you don't— first of all, you don't need to be, in my opinion, and you don't need to be the job to, to recruit for a job.

Yeah, you know what, you don't.

But I think if you used to be, um, an architect and you're recruiting architects, it makes it easier.

Yeah.

To talk to architects because you have common language.

Right.

Not that you have to be an architect to recruit architects, but so you have both. You live in both worlds.

You live—

that helps you with that, with that tension. I was just curious if you have any advice for those of us that have maybe, you know, they used to be an engineer and now a recruiter, but they're looking—

right. So I don't know, a couple things for me, you know, I'll just tell you what I do. So for me, A, I always keep my license. We talked about that earlier. So I stay, I keep a license. And So in most— I've lived and worked in 6 states now, so, um, some states require CEUs, some don't. Uh, in Virginia, where I live now, we do. So I do, you know, stay— I like to stay abreast. I'm very involved, um, in the American Nurses Association as well as my state, um, association. So that is just my story. So I don't know for other people, like for example the architect or someone that— everybody's got their or their association or thing they can be on, and they have to keep up.

Just to keep your RA, you have to stay up.

You have to keep licensure and things like that. Exactly. Now I know what some people— now this has not been my experience, but I know of, um, some individuals who have gone into recruiting with a nursing background and they still may pick up a shift here and there, that type. I chose— I didn't do that in my— you know, I've been in recruiting the last 20 years, so I haven't done that. Um, but I know that there are some people that have done that, so that is an option for some people if you still want to get your feet wet. So for me, kind of when you put the the whole tension. What I feel sometimes is, you know, yes, I'm a nurse by background, um, I'm also a recruiter. And while, you know, the last, I would say, gosh, 12, 13 years I've been leading teams. And so this is where honestly I do have a little bit of tension, and I've experienced that with being either the recruiter or the leader. Um, so I've been in roles where I was the leader of recruiting, but I also had a rec load. So I did that for a period of time. But then the— for— it depends on— here's another— it depends on, you know, your organization, your structure, and all of that. So probably my last several organizations, I really didn't have a rec load, so I wasn't recruiting per se. But that's— but I love recruiting, so I'm like, give me a rec, I'll take a rec in a heartbeat, even though I may be whatever my title is. So that's not And so that's where I kind of miss that sometimes. So as an entrepreneur now, or solopreneur, you know, some of the work I've been doing is some freelance recruiting. Um, and so I like still getting my foot— my feet wet and getting in there and doing the things. So that would be for me. So kind of how I don't really see it as— I know you use the word tension, and I know what you mean by that, but just kind of bridging all the things and, and making it a nice Um, I guess we just got through the holidays and food, and you just talked about ribs. I'm gonna talk about cake. No, you know, just the whole— uh, yes, I'm gonna do it. The, the recipe and putting it all together and having everything. So yeah, there's things though for me, I, I make it work, um, with, uh, again, staying, staying active, at least with my license and being involved. I'm active in, um, different nursing organizations, and one of the things that I'm also passionate about is advocacy. We're not going to go into any political conversation here because that's not the time or place for that. But in general, just advocating for healthcare workforce and things that— and I think that's something that we don't really think about in recruiting, maybe not fully. That's one thing that I'm doing this a lot through my professional organization, particularly on the nursing side. But then you mentioned with NACCR, NAHRP, which is the National Association for Healthcare Recruitment. One of the things that I'm looking at too is that how we can, as recruiters, be involved in advocacy for workforce.

Interesting.

Okay. So how do we do on time?

We're— yeah, we're almost done, actually. I was gonna, I was gonna wrap it up and ask if you could stay on for a few seconds for the, for the after-hours. But, you know, in, in parting, to leave everybody, I like to give somebody that might be watching or listening over the weekend, you know, coming up, something to kind of like chew on. And so hit us with, hit us with, if someone reads The 24 Minute Method, and just does one thing differently. What's that single thing that, that they should, you know, that what is that one key takeaway?

I would say the one key takeaway is to be purposeful about your first 24 minutes of your day. Um, yeah, and, um, and maybe— and I know some people do that. They have a, you know, I was actually talking to someone that says, you know, I block off my first 15 minutes of my day, or 15 to 30 minutes in the last 15 to 30 minutes. I'm not going to stop you from doing that. That works for you. But, you know, some people, they just go in with their days like what you start working, you just go in on your calendar, go in your email, but be very purposeful about how is it that I am going to frame the first 24 minutes of my day. So that would be something I would encourage people to do. Yeah.

All right, well, thanks so much for being our guest today.

Thank you for having me. It's been fun this first day of, uh, or the first Friday, and I guess the first work—

first of the year. Yeah, yeah, of the first workday of the year happens to be at Shelly's Alley. And your first time as a guest, probably not your last time. Um, but folks, yeah, next week we have Tyler Weeks coming in. Um, so join us next week. And until then, please don't forget to join TSI as a member. I did not put that up there, but I probably should, so let me put that up there real quick.

Yeah, give that up.

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