Anthony Ysasaga Live on Shally's Alley
In this live interview, Shally Steckerl talks with sourcing expert Anthony Ysasaga about the concept of a "sourcing sprint" – a rapid, high‑visibility hiring effort that requires delivering qualified candidates in a short time frame. Anthony explains how sprint teams are structured like military squads, with a lead and specialists (software, hardware, systems, operations) each owning a portion of the hiring load and specific activity metrics. He shares concrete numbers: 125‑150 outreach emails per week, 20‑35% first‑touch response rates, and 8‑10 mid‑level or 2‑3 executive candidates per week. He describes the tools and processes he uses – Boolean and X‑ray searches, LinkedIn, SeekOut, RocketReach, Elucify, spreadsheets with Outlook macros, and a detailed sourcing checklist that tracks outreach, responses, and follow‑ups. Communication with hiring managers is emphasized, with frequent touch‑points, transparent reporting of activity, and proactive discussion of challenges. Anthony offers advice for new contract sourcers: ask clarifying questions, understand performance thresholds, seek feedback, and demonstrate engagement. He also discusses a common pitfall where sourcers assume client expectations (e.g., a 1‑to‑1 placement model) without confirming deliverables, leading to wasted effort. The conversation moves to interview techniques for hiring sourcers, outlining four evaluation categories – sourcing strategy, prospect identification, prospect engagement, and stakeholder expectations – and probing for CRM usage, metric tracking, and messaging. Finally, Anthony suggests a knockout interview question: create a Boolean string for a backend software engineer with location criteria on the spot, using it as a litmus test of practical sourcing skill. Throughout, the tone is conversational and instructional, with enthusiastic and supportive sentiment toward effective, data‑driven sourcing practices.
Chapters
All right, it is Friday, December 9th, still 2022, and you are live on Shally's Alley. Apologies about the being late, uh, inevitable. We, uh, we had a little bit of an emergency that, uh, we needed to attend to, but I really wanted to bring on special guest Anthony Isasaga And, um, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let him say a couple of things, but first of all, did I say your last name correctly? I always ask you, but is that correct?
That's perfect, exactly correct.
Cool. All right, all right. Well, guys, I'm trying something a little bit different. I'm trying this new mobile, uh, mobile format in case any of you out there are on mobile phones. If you're on a PC and this looks kind of weird, drop me a note in the chat. But if, you know, I'm assuming a lot of folks are just using their, their mobile phone or their tablet. So hopefully this is a little bit nicer. So feel free to drop a note in the chat. By way of introduction, so Tony, Tony and I worked together for a short while. He's also worked at companies like Accenture, Korn Ferry, PwC, some pretty big names. As well as Sabre. If you don't know who Sabre is, basically every time you get your baggage at the airport, it's probably because of Sabre. That's not all they do. They do a lot of other things. And if you ever bought any baggage, you probably bought it at JCPenney also, where Anthony used to work. So what's that?
That's right. That's correct.
Kind of bringing it all together, right? So what I wanted to ask, ask you about and just kind of dive into a little bit is this whole sourcing sprint thing that you are, um, I don't know if you're like, you coined it or you are specializing in it, but I'm really intrigued by it. First of all, what is a sourcing sprint team?
Yeah, a sourcing sprint team means that you have been assigned to a position that is a critical need within the organization. So it's a position that either has some high visibility or maybe a position that has been aging for some time. And so part of that sprint team means that I have to develop talent in very short order. And with that, generally, I'll have some notes on the intake call that occurred, looking at some of the essentials, but really gathering as much people as possible. And, you know, the, the difficult part about that is really managing candidate pipeline, developing prospects, and marketing to them. But keeping it all organized. So I would think that, you know, my experience has shown that pipelining is probably the most difficult thing that you can do in terms of developing candidates and being able to manage the people that you reached out to and continuing to follow up with the people that haven't responded. But yeah, sprint team is someone that's really aggressively involved in developing a lot of candidates in a very short time.
Okay. What does a lot mean?
What is a lot? So I would say that in any given week, 8 to 10 candidates is something that I can probably produce for a mid-level position. If it's an executive position, I'd probably say 2 to 3 candidates.
What, in an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours?
Gotcha. Gotcha. No, that's generally a week.
Got it.
And these are individuals that the sprint team will go through and they'll identify candidates. So first of all, obviously you can't do this in an hour because you've got to be able to reach out to individuals.
Yeah, exactly. That's what I was thinking. You got to contact them, you got to get the responses.
Once you get the responses, you set up the calls and then you do a quick screening call. Um, once you do the screening call, then here's what I do. I mean, I really look at kind of the, you know, the top prospects that have responded. And once I do that I'll make a list of the people that I think would be good targets for the position. And once I look at the targets and I'll schedule interviews, and then generally once I interview those people, maybe 50% will make the cut. And of those people that make the cut, then I'll really look at, look at and scrutinize the information from the, from the screening call to determine which ones I'm going to present to the hiring manager. Because ultimately what we're measured on, most of the companies that I've worked with, the metrics that they measure on is really the— not just the productivity, but the amount of people that actually end up getting an offer. So it's, it's of the people that you submit, you know, we look at the metrics of the people that, um, the people you submit to the hiring manager, then there's a certain percentage that the hiring manager will select. And of those that they select, um, then they'll interview those individuals. And of those people, there's a certain number of that certain percentage that will go to the tech screen. And then From that, there's going to be a certain percentage that goes to the final screen, and then an offer is generally made at that point. So that's a general overview of the process. And week by week, you know, and I will tell you that if I'm targeting a mid-level position, I'm going to send— I know this sounds like a lot, and it is a lot— but I'd say anywhere between 125 to 150 emails per week. And of that there's a certain percentage of responses that I'm going to be receiving, and of those, I'm going to select the individuals that I want to move forward with.
Got it.
Okay.
So there's a team part of this. You said sourcing sprint team. And what I was curious about is, well, first of all, I don't know if you're currently in a role where you're doing this or not, but what I was curious about with this sourcing sprint team thing that you're talking about is the team aspect of it, right? Right, so are, let's say, I don't know, I'm gonna take a guess. Let's say a sprint team, maybe 4 people. Are all 4 people working on the same position? And if so, how do you divide and conquer so that you're not stepping on each other's toes, right? Like I'm thinking a sourcing sprint team is kind of similar to like a squad, like a development squad. And in the military, squads are usually, you know, small teams of 5 or so, and each one has their specialization, and each one does— has like a job to do. So is— am I thinking about this correctly? Is this the same, or is it just a, a team of 5 people that do 5 different things?
No, it is. So generally, so the last squad that I was a part of, the last sprint team, so I worked, um, at Korn Ferry supporting HPE, and with that we had 7 people that were on the team. Um, we each had individual responsibilities like in the military, you become specialized, you know, and you have a certain area that you're responsible for, and in that you're, you're a subject matter expert. And so my area of expertise was software engineering and software systems engineering. So I would focus on those particular positions. So HPE would have a number of positions open, and so I was the team lead. So essentially I would go through and I would assign the positions to the individuals on the squad that had a particular skill set that they were siloed in. And with that, you know, they, they, you know, had the responsibility of— and by the way, when we did this as a team, we, we all had positions that we were working on, but everyone was responsible for a certain number of metrics, right? So we had to have a certain number, we had to hit certain thresholds of activity per week. And so, you know, the expectations were really high in terms of what we were looking for. And, you know, with that, you know, if they weren't— my responsibility as a team leader or squad lead was just if they weren't hitting the numbers, maybe providing the team that I was supporting the, you know, some of the details of things that they need to be doing, or maybe I can talk to them about, you know, where they're sourcing, or maybe where their, you know, fishing ponds are, and I need to at least evaluate why they aren't, you know, up to par in terms of activity. And so with that, I provide suggestions in terms of developing candidates. And so I've got different outlets, and, you know, I have a sourcing outline plan that I have, and I want to make sure that all the avenues are covered. If they are able to do that, they should be able to hit the numbers. Sometimes people, especially on sprint teams, they are so heavily involved in terms of looking at the numbers and what they need to develop, sometimes they lose sight of the individual things that they need to do right in order to be able to achieve their objectives. Okay.
All right. So in the sprint team, you're the squad leader, or if it's a squad or whatever, you are someone, and I'm not just singling you out here, but in this sprint team, you are a squad leader, point person, and your job's not to do all the work, and your job's not to boss people around. You just are, you know, leading the charge, and you've got your own things that you got to do. And if somebody's falling behind, you know, you know what to do to kind of help bring them back up. I do. But what I want to get to is the— like, I'm thinking like a Delta Force or, you know, Force Recon or something like that where there's 5 people, you know, one of them is obviously the squad leader and the other 4 each have a specialization. One of them is demolitions, another one's weapons, another one might be intel, another one might be canine or whatever, right? So is that how this is? So you got one source that does one thing, or like, how does, how does that work?
Yeah, yeah. Um, so they're, they're siloed up into, uh, different, uh, categories. So within the sprint team, I mean, the sprint team supports all of HPE, uh, and, um, all of their, you know, uh, IT positions. And so what we do is we silo those in, into different areas. One is Pure engineering, another one's hardware engineering, another one is, um, there's Jeremy. Hey, Jeremy. Uh, another one would be the, uh, the systems engineering, another one would be software engineering, um, and then there's operations, um, and we also have individuals that were assigned to, um, I'd say some of the corporate operations positions. So they were siloed into those different areas. So yeah, just, just like you said, I mean, we, we essentially had the different responsibilities assigned to each of the sprint team members, and each of them have a specialization in that particular area. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. And now I get the whole, you know, if one of them isn't performing, then kind of the whole team sort of, you know, falls behind, right?
That's right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And so I have a system, you know, like a checklist that I go through that, you know, even, you know, with the silo team, the checklist itself is, you know, it does a sweep of everything that needs to be considered. And with that, I'm also able to help them with the Boolean strings if they have a hard time developing that. But, you know, most of it's just really going through, you know, with the sourcing checklist. I mean, essentially I have them go through the internal database first. You know, if this is something you wanna go through.
[Speaker] Right, you've got your plan, your sourcing plan, right? And also I'm assuming they're doing the outreach. So you've got, you know, communications and other things that you need to look at as well, right? Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, we're also, we're also looking at the metrics. So whenever we have an individual that, um, is sending out marketing messages, we want to look at the percentage of responses that they're receiving. And I also look at, um, yes, I can share the checklist. Um, I also, you know, and, and I'm involved with, you know, what, what percentage of responses are they getting? What, what do they need to do to maybe recraft their message? Because everyone has their own individual message, and sometimes it's just doesn't speak to the audience, um, you know, maybe as it should. And so I've got some templates that I utilize to be able to do that. Um, and so I've worked with a number of different companies and, uh, you know, a number of different areas, mostly within IT. But, uh, you know, they're like, like, you know, particular— in particular, um, if you're selling an opportunity to a data engineer, um, you, you know, selling the opportunity and saying, hey, you know, this is an opportunity with a great company and you can make at least 20% more than you're making now. Data scientists aren't interested in that. They're interested in the type of technology that you're utilizing. So you need to be able to use that selling technique and say, hey, listen, we're working with some of the best tech, you know, available, and you have to— some of the tech that you're, you're talking about in the email or the intro email. And so you want to be able to do what you can to entice these individuals to respond and at least, you know, not make it sound like a sales pitch. Most of the time, you know, when I do reach out or somebody's marketing in mails or emails that I send out is really just asking for their expertise and really just saying, hey, look, I'm really intrigued by your background. You know, I'm working here, here's some of the tech that we're using. You know, I'd like to at least discuss with you, or if you have a few minutes, to at least discuss some ideas about maybe where I can target some real good candidates. And I mean, it seems to work. I mean, for me, I get a large number of responses. So with the number of emails that I send out per week. And like I said, it's between 125 and 150. I'm probably getting about 20 to 30% responses on a good week.
Okay, uh, 30— 20 to 35 on the first outreach or after a series?
Um, it's— say that again, sorry.
So like 20 to 35, uh, percent response rate on that first outreach?
Correct.
Or is it like after the second, the third, or like a cumulative It's generally on the first outreach. Okay.
And, um, you know, with, with that, you know, I coupled that—
subsequent rounds, you would have an increase in that response rate.
And I have a, um, I have an Excel spreadsheet where I type in my target first name, last name, where they're working, and their email address. Um, you know, and generally what I'll do is I'll hit LinkedIn first, and then if I, if I don't get a response on LinkedIn, then what I'll do is I'll follow up with this macro-enabled spreadsheet that I created and automatically sends emails via Outlook and it follows up with them saying, hey, I sent you an email via Outlook. You may not have had a chance to look at it or maybe got caught in your spam folder, but here's a little synopsis of what we're looking for or maybe what I was asking. If you have an opportunity, I'd really appreciate a response. It elicits responses. You have to be tenacious about this and if you are, I think you can you're not going to have trouble at all developing candidates. Yeah.
Yeah, of course. You've got to, you've got to keep tuning it, right? Keep editing it and tuning it.
You have to. And it's, it's, it's, and here's what I say all the time, you know, to the people that, that have reported to me and even to some of the people that I work with, you have to think, you have to be very present in terms of what you're doing because you can't just go through the motions. You have to think about what you're doing. You have to reevaluate everything you're doing. You've gotta continue to fine-tune everything that you're working on because this is a very, very dynamic situation. This isn't some static role where you just flip a switch and then you get the results. I mean, you've got to—
Even if you automate parts of it, you're still monitoring and pivoting and shifting the automation. Yeah, yeah.
100%. Exactly. I can't even tell you how many times I've changed the message in an outreach Extreme. Yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Yep, that makes sense. So, uh, something else that I wanted to ask you about. So you, you landed at a new position, right? You just started a new gig. There's been a lot of people switching jobs lately because of all the cuts and everything that's been going on. So, um, give, give us your best advice for a sourcer that's on a contract and just landed in a new place and wants to basically show immediate value. Like, what's the best thing, maybe not the single best thing, but maybe the top 3 things that they should be doing immediately to demonstrate value so that the business doesn't start looking at them in a week and go, hmm, they're not producing results, what's going on?
That's a great question. So, um, and I have a great answer. Um, as a matter of fact, a number of the positions that I received— so, you know, whenever I'm looking for a job, I literally target the people that I want to work for, the companies that I want to work for, and then I specifically choose targets, um, and reach out to them. And, um, you know, I've got access to their phone numbers, personal email addresses, and whatnot. But once I get— once I get there and I have an opportunity and I get my foot in the door, especially for individuals that are just now getting jobs, and so not a lot of people or not a lot of companies are hiring full-time. So if you get your foot in the door, the most important thing you can do is be constantly engaged. Um, the thing that impresses clients most— and I've done this too with contractors— is I'm really impressed by the individuals that continue to ask questions, that want to continue to learn. Um, they said, you know what— and a lot of people go through the initial training, especially contractors. Like when I was working at Accenture, we had to learn the systems, we had to learn how they worked in Taleo, and They've got a super business edition of Taleo that they utilize, and it's difficult to learn, and it took us a week of training. But in that, I really found a way to ask a lot of questions, and the people that I'm reporting to, like, look, I've got questions. And what's funny about training is a lot of people will sit through training and just go, okay, you know, I get it, but they don't ask questions and they try to figure things out on their own. If you're engaged with the employer, you're engaged with the person that hired you, maybe the person that supervises you. I think one of the things that, one of the comments that I get most is that we really, you know, you really impressed us, but really what impressed us the most is that you're engaged and you're asking questions and you're continuing to say, well, this doesn't work, or maybe I tried this and I think there's a better way of doing it. I mean, we're there to add some value and we're there, you know, especially contractors, we're there to add value immediately. And so when you're going through training and you're utilizing and you're starting to look at these new systems, ask a ton of questions and see if you can add value at some point. You know, another thing is, is that, you know, ask what the thresholds of performance are. You've got to be able to understand what your job is. And so, you know, they may tell you initially or the agency that's, you know, that brought you into the organization said, hey, your responsibility is going to be a contract sourcer. And so most of the time, you know, you, you do, I guess, whatever you do, but most of the time you don't ask. A lot of people don't ask about what their thresholds of performance are. I ask all the time, like, am I hitting my goal? Are the candidates that, um, I've sent over— you know, and a lot of the time, especially if you're a contract sourcer, you'll send, you know, candidates over and you just don't get any feedback. I want to know feedback. It's imperative for me to understand the candidates that I've developed and if they're not— if those are good candidates and they're viable. And I like to know the percentage of individuals that I've presented, if the, you know, the percentage that I've submitted, you know, is a high percentage of individuals that they want to look at and pursue. And for me, getting feedback on those candidates also, again, it helps to fine-tune my search. If I'm able to get feedback from even the recruiter about the people that I've developed, you know, I want to be able to know, you know, what am I doing right, what am I doing wrong. I think a large part of being a contractor and you're a little bit, you're doing what you can to keep the job, but also a lot of the time it's hard for people to hear constructive criticism and I ask for that all the time. Like, what can I do better? Like, I know that I'm not perfect and I'm trying to develop the best candidates that I can for this opportunity, but I wanna know just honestly, like, what can I do better of the candidates that I've submitted? Another thing is that once you understand the thresholds of performance and what's expected of you, look at the process. And I mean, most of the people that I know, especially that work in this business, are intelligent people. Being able to offer anything that adds value or saying, hey, look, I've looked at this process. I think that there's something that we can do a little bit better now. Like, I'm kind of new here. But as I'm looking at the organization, as I'm looking at what we're responsible for, there's a couple of areas that I think we can actually improve upon. Those comments most of the time fall on ears that really appreciate those type of comments.
Okay. So ask a bunch of questions when you first get there. Don't just take for granted what they said you should be doing and kind of kick back and go, all right, I'm here. I'm going to get started on sourcing. And start submitting candidates. So I'm gonna say this and wanna kind of get your reaction to it. You know, I've done a lot of consulting and engagements in various modalities. And I see this mistake a lot with people that come on board, whether it's a contract recruiter or contract sourcer, but it happens to especially be prominent among sourcers. And that is that they make the assumption that, or they make an assumption about what the client wants as an end result. In other words, when they come in their first couple of weeks, they just start doing what they know how to do, what they've done before. For example, they might source and screen candidates, and when they have a really good qualified candidate, then they present the candidate to the hiring manager. Now, you might be asking yourself, well, yeah, uh, that sounds pretty good. Like, isn't that what you're supposed to do? But here's the thing, I have run into all kinds of situations where people did exactly that and they failed. So for example, One time, and there's more than one, just, you know, highlighting one particular example. There was, there is a recruiter that I respect very highly. And they're probably one of the best recruiters I've ever worked with. This particular recruiter has the, they're known for, they have the, I don't know if the habit or just the work style, but what they're known for is a 1-to-1 ratio. So they present someone and they get hired. Okay, this is what they're known for. Now sometimes they do 2-to-1, but usually it's 1-to-1, and this is, this is their thing. Okay, so this recruiter, sourcer, whatever you want to call it, shows up on, on the contract and they go out and they start digging and digging and digging. A week goes by, 2 weeks go by, the client is asking me Where are my candidates? And I'm like, what, we've talked to 500 people, we've seen 20 people, you know, we'll get, we'll be presenting somebody to you soon. And another week goes by. And basically, the client just has had it. And they're like, we need to let him go and find somebody else. This person is not working for us right now. Or they're not, they're not working for us. And I was like, scratching my head going, this is literally one of the best recruiters I've ever known. I mean, This doesn't make any sense. So I called up the recruiter and I'm like, hey, so the client's asking me, you know, why you haven't sent any candidates. And of course, I kind of knew what he was going to say and I was hoping he didn't say it, but he's like, well, yeah, I've already, you know, interviewed all these people and all that. And I was like, did you send them a report? No. Did you send them a list of people? No, I'm only going to send them the candidate that they want to hire. You know, remember, I do one-to-one. And I'm like, okay, let me ask you this. Did you ask the client if they wanted a finalist or if they wanted something else? And he's like, no, I didn't. I just assumed that they wanted a candidate that was ready to go and hireable and that, you know, that they would want to hire. Like, that's my thing. That's what I do. Yeah, but did you explain that to them? Um, and/or did you like any— nope, not at all. So 3 weeks into this, they get cut, and they get cut because they showed no work. Now I want to kind of toss that over to you and, and ask you, what would you have done in that situation? Because it is what he does and he is successful, and if he had gotten maybe one more week, he would have presented a candidate that would have been hired, right? But instead he got canned, right?
Well, I mean, that's a, that's a pretty simple question. And yes, I see that all the time. I see individuals—
you would think it's a simple question, right?
Well, you think it's a simple question, right?
But, you know, but I see it all the time too where they, or they do something different, but again, it's not what the client expected, right?
Right, right. You know, I've had that situation occur where I've had, um, really, really good people, um, that I've worked with and, um, you know, they, they, they found a new job and they ended up losing it real quick. And I'm like, how did that happen? You know, you had the same thing happen to you. But, um, for me, one of the most critical components that I have, and especially with what I've done— so I've consulted on my own for a number of years, and I'm a 1099. So, you know, I know that, um, you know, it's— for me, it's easy.
Hold on, for those of you out there that don't know what that means, because, uh, you know Sorry, buddy, but like sometimes people can't, you know, follow your, your thought path, your speed there. Uh, 1099 is a contractor, an independent contractor. So essentially, if you've ever worked a job where you're not an employee but you get a W-2 check where they withhold, they withhold your taxes and all that, you don't have benefits or you don't, you know, that's, that's a different kind of contractor. The 1099 is essentially a corp-to-corp or an independent contractor. There's no tax withholding and it's a straight hourly bill rate. For the most part, they expect you to pretty much provide your own tools. They might give you a company computer or whatever, but it's very much an independent contractor, which is different than a W-2 contract. Again, just explaining. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah.
So, uh, being an independent contractor and also working for a number of RPOs, especially and most recently at Korn Ferry, um, one of the most important things that we can do— I mean, there are a lot of talented people that I've worked with at Korn Ferry, and I'm really impressed by people's backgrounds— but the biggest feeling we've had in, in some areas, especially with some of the newer clients, is that a lot of these consultants, talent consultants, they're just not communicating. They're not sharing the metrics of what they're doing for— they're not sharing their activity. For me, that's a critical component of being able to gain the trust of the client that you're working for, and you have to be able to be transparent about what you're doing. In that vein, not only are you able to show them what you're able to do, it's also okay to share some of the difficulties that you're having and some of the challenges. And really, for me, I always like to lean on the clients, and if I'm having difficulty in an area like You know, for instance, um, I had a, uh, really difficult hardware position that I was wanting to fill, um, with HPE, and I was, I was hitting a wall, and I was not, um, seeing the number of prospects, um, out there just because I was looking for a particular set of skills. And I got back to the manager, and he was like, that's not a lot of reach-outs, you know, that you've had. And I said, yeah, I'm having some challenges, and I really want to talk about this. And so we were able to have a good lengthy conversation about you know, what are some of the aspects of experience that, you know, this manager would accept. But also he said, you know, I've had the same difficulty before and here's some ideas that I had about developing additional candidates. And here he also put me in touch with the team. Um, and, um, yeah, no worries. And he, uh, he put me in touch with the team and said, hey, listen, why don't you work with the team? Because the hardware location was actually a position that was worked there in the office in Washington State. And so 3 of the people that I talked to said, yeah, man, we've got some connections out here. And they were able to set me up and at least get me in front of at least 20 different people. But for me, you've got to be able to share the activity of what you're doing each week and explain it to the manager. They appreciate that. You're your stakeholder. They appreciate that more than you can even imagine. They're like, okay, I get it, I understand what he's doing. And not, not to get into the minutia of it, just give them a good high-level overview of what you're doing. And, um, and, and, you know, again, it's not always going to be sunshine and roses. You know, sometimes you're going to have difficulty, and with that, you have to be able to share some of the challenges that you're having if you can. Um, I think you can earn trust a lot quicker with the client, and, and, um, you know, at least they understand what the playing field looks like. They're able to say, okay. And I tell them most of the time, especially with an intake call, look, you know, with this position, you know, in my history, it's taken at least a week and a half to develop good candidates. And so here's what's involved in that process. And so my touch bases with clients is very high, and I generally touch base at least 3 days a week. Some clients I touch base, you know, every day if necessary. But for me, it instills that sense of confidence, and I want to help them understand what I'm doing. But also You know, it's not only just good for them, it's good for you. It, it gives you a sense of accountability and responsibility, and you're like, look, I've got to be able to get these things done. And that way you don't get lost, you know, looking at some post, you know, or some email, and you're like, where was I? What was I doing? You've got to have some accountability and understand exactly what your responsibilities are. And reminding yourself, you know, by having that connection, it's a good thing to do. Hey, okay, okay.
Hey, we had a question from somebody in the audience. Yeah, they said he's back because you like muted for just a second. But there's a question from someone in the audience, which first of all, thank you, I'm flattered. But you know, this is a great legit question. Hey, what are the best questions to ask? I've got, I've got a few I've talked about on the show, but let's hear from you. You, you hire sourcers for your, your sprint teams. What are the best questions that you ask sourcers when you're interviewing them?
Yeah, um, I ask them about, uh, their process. And, uh, you know, I want to know, I want to know what their methodology is, um, or if they have a methodology. You know, for me, it's, it's, um You know, for me, and I will tell you, when I'm interviewing, I really have 4 categories, um, that I look at. And one is really, you know, have they created a sourcing strategy? Number 2, um, what do they do to identify or find prospects? Number 3, what do they do to engage prospects? And number 4, um, when they submit qualified candidates to recruiters, what are the expectations that they have, um, for, um, you know, the stakeholder? And if I can, I'd like to go into detail about some of those. So when I'm asking, when I'm asking the sourcer, you know, what their sourcing strategy is, you know, number one, I, I want to hear things like, you know, they coordinate, coordinated with the stakeholder, you know, and/or recruiter to determine the basic qualifiers. And then once engaged, you know, what do they do to stay in constant contact with that stakeholder, which we just talked about. Um, I also ask about, you know, you know, um, what do you do about the ATS? I mean, most most ATSs like you and I, shall we work together, um, we weren't able to do a search within your ATS, but there are some that you can, like Taleo and Bullhorn. You can do different searches. So I want to know whether or not they're able to utilize that search technology and, and, um, or technique, because there are some candidates that might be, you know, already interested and have applied to a different position that may not be the position that, that, or the title that you're necessarily responsible for, but there may be someone in the applicant tracking system that you may have an interest in, so it's worth looking at them. I also want to know whether or not they utilize a CRM. Do they have any organization to do anything like that?
Okay, so do they utilize— so you're asking the sourcer if they use a CRM. I'm just going to come out and say it, what if they don't? I mean, that, you know, no offense to anybody that's listening here, But you can kind of do this job with a crayon and a piece of paper. I mean, that could be your CRM. If you had no other choice, you could use a chisel and a, you know, tablet if you needed to. So it's not like, you know, I get what you're saying, but what, but what if they haven't had the advantage to find as long to me, I'm going to be— you're thinking more like, how do they track? You're asking more like, how are you? How do you track your— how do you track candidates?
Yeah, how do you track candidates? How do you track your pipeline? Because I will tell you this, when I do a search, and some of the searches that I do are really extensive, and so when I'm sending out a ton of emails, um, um, I want to know who I've reached out to. And, you know, LinkedIn's really good about saying, oh yeah, you've reached out to this candidate. But if you're doing it off of an X-ray search, um, you don't have any tracking system there. So you've got to at least, even at the bare minimum, some spreadsheet or whatever it is Jump on who you've reached out to because number one, you don't want to look like an idiot reaching out to them more than one time because they're going to be like, hey, you're the third person that's called me from this company today, right? Right. But, but with that, you know, yeah, as long as I'm going to be able to figure out that they're utilizing some sort of organization technique. Another one with the sourcing strategy is I want to find out what their sourcing channels are. I want to know what tools that they're utilizing or what tools that they have access to or what they've utilized in the past and how that's worked for them. I want someone to be able to, like you and I, Shelley, when we talked, it was really about when I was doing work for you, you'd ask about the Boolean strings and developing that. And to me, you've got to be able to understand Boolean logic and you've gotta be able to utilize that in a way that's constructive and productive. And you've gotta know your way around that. There's no two ways about it. When you do X-ray searches, To me, X-ray searches is probably one of the things that I do most, and so understanding Boolean logic is important. I also, you know, I ask about, you know, what they do, you know, above and beyond, you know, regarding their sourcing strategy. And I'm gonna hear things like, you know, you know, they develop, um, you know, and they utilize the hiring manager or, you know, the employer's network. Um, I, uh, you know, ask them about the the basic requirements. And we talked about tangible and intangible skills, what's acceptable, what's not. You know, we really talked about BQs, and by BQs I mean basic qualifiers, like what do we need at a minimum for this candidate to have in order to be considered. And, you know, when you develop a sourcing strategy, to me, you have to understand, and, you know, for me, it's, it's here with me. Hold on one second. Um, you have to understand the different silos of your sourcing strategy. For me, um, it's business intelligence, it's recruiting tech, recruitment technology, sourcing technology, search engines, sourcing media, and marketing. And so marketing to me is a really big part of that. Then part of the sourcing strategy too is, is I want to hear about their metrics and their response rates and, you know, and I want to hear whether or not they're able to, or think about being able to, review and retool weekly based on the reports that are provided to them. To me, that's, that's, you know, crazy important. Um, in another silo, you know, when you're finding or identifying prospects, um, you know, through, you know, when you're doing that, you know, when you identify companies that are tier targets, um, you really need to identify companies with similar tech stacks. I mean, If you're not doing that, you're fishing in the wrong pond, so to speak. But you need to look at tier 1 and tier 2 competitors. Look at the tech skill hubs. I mean, there's a tech stack website out there that looks at the tech stacks of different companies that you could target. I think being able to utilize, you know, tools like Elucify, you know, LinkedIn, of course, GitHub, RocketReach, I mean, SeekOut, X-Ray searches. There's a couple of good X-Ray—
are you asking them about all these? Are you giving them the tools and they're saying yes, or are you asking for for them to tell you what you want.
Yeah, I'm asking about what they utilize, um, you know, when they're identifying prospects. Like, what type of tools do you utilize? And I want to hear things like, you know, like Elusive or SeekOut or RocketReach, or maybe different X-ray searches, because I don't want them to be just limited to LinkedIn. And so, you know, a lot of the average sourcers that I run across utilize just LinkedIn only, or maybe just Indeed. They just stick to that. Like, with this, you know, and I say this all the time, this isn't This isn't, you know, sourcing and recruiting, you know, it's not a science and it's, it's not an art. It's really a combination of both. But, but really, for me, it's, it's more about being creative and being able to understand. And that's what I want to hear when I, when I ask sources questions. I want to hear about what they're doing to identify different prospects. And so, you know, in the category of engaging prospects, I want to hear things like, you know, how are they managing the reach-outs and what are, what types tools that they're utilizing. Um, I want to hear, you know, about— I want to hear some consistency in terms of if they're utilizing metrics or some of the metrics they've utilized in the past. Because if I'm not—
or are they even tracking it? You know what, doesn't it really irritate me? Yeah, I ask a sourcer, so about how many people did you submit per week? I don't know. Uh, okay, how many people did you interview per week? Oh, I don't know. How many emails did you send out? I don't know. Now I get that all these are just, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter how many emails you send out. And I'm not gonna, I'm not, I don't manage, you know this, I don't manage by KPIs like that. It's absolutely pointless. But I would expect, I would expect a sourcer that's just paying attention without even tracking to be able to say, well, you know, last week I sent about 12 or you know, submittals, and I emailed maybe about 400 or 500 people because you would look at your, you know, inbox and even just know. So when they're completely clueless, like have no idea, that— I don't know, that doesn't sit well with me either.
And I'm going to tell you this, there, to me, there's a really, really critical and important aspect, um, to what we're doing. And, uh, you know, for me, um, it's really about You know, when you engage prospects, you're doing something that's very important. And what you're doing is you need to discuss— and I don't want to hear this— when they get prospects, what do you tell them about the employer? I want the sourcer to be able to talk to me about their previous employees and say, here, I'm going to tell you a little bit about the employer brand or different employment experiences with candidates, because that's what you're selling to people that are looking for new jobs. I mean, this isn't just a, hey, this is all about me and I'm trying to get this job and I'm really good at what I do and Right, right, right. You're really affecting people's livelihood and you're getting them to change jobs. I mean, that's a big deal. So for me, really being able to discuss not only the employer brand, but the employment experience and what people think about that company. But the most important thing is that, you know, what the expectations are for that particular position. And so I want to be able to hear when I ask a sourcer, what do you tell candidates? I wanna be able to hear that. And, you know, and what about candidates that, you know— What do you talk about?
How do you ask questions? What kind of questions do you ask, right?
Yeah.
And I've done that. And sometimes I get that, well, it depends on the client. Like, no, no, no, no, I don't mean client-specific, right? Like, I don't mean what do you ask candidates that are, uh, Java developers or whatever. I mean, what is it? I want to hear how you talk to candidates and what kinds of things you say, not specifically related to the job.
Exactly, exactly. And you know, it's, uh, it's always important because for me, you know, it's always important just to have that conversation, not just to say. And I've had recruiters say, hey, do you have this skill set? Do you have this technology?
Yes.
Okay, great. I've literally had somebody, um, have a 3-minute conversation with me and submit me to an opportunity. And for me, I literally just emailed the guy and said, look, I'm really interested because I know I'm going to get lost in the mix. I want them to have a meaningful conversation with me, and I want them— you know, I want to hear whether or not the sourcer is going to be able to advocate for this individual, because the sourcer has to have enough knowledge about the individual to say, you know what, The hiring manager pushes back a little bit, you're going to have pushback. You're going to, you're going to have to push back too and say, look, you know, here's a reason you need to be— you need to talk to this person. And you may not read what you— you may not see what you want on this person's resume, but I'm telling you, this, this is the person you need to talk about, and here are the reasons why. But with engaging prospects, you know, I think another important aspect is I want to hear what they do with candidates that don't get the job or don't go through to the final round. Um, you know, did they follow up with those individuals? I mean, when you're representing a stakeholder or employer, you know, you're part of that brand even as a contractor, and you've got to be able to close them out in a professional, respectful way. And if you can do that, they may look at that opportunity again down the road or may want to work with you. So anyway, um, you know, the last one—
I want to address this thing that, uh, Steve, uh, Rawlings, um, posted about. It really does depend on the job he's working on. So how many outreach messages or how many phone screens you do is definitely going to vary. But what I was saying is that, um, what types of questions you ask, right, doesn't matter what the job is, right? When you're talking to candidates, it doesn't matter if the candidate's in, in technology or medical. There's a few things that you have to ask. What I'm, what I'm talking about are, um, you know, when would you be available, what would your salary expectations be. These are the standard questions, right? Not the technical questions. But yeah, Steve, you're right. I mean, if you need to hire somebody who's like principal architect with backend experience that knows some arcane language, then you're gonna need a lot more, you know, candidates because you have no idea. Sometimes you're not gonna have those skill sets. So yeah, that part of it definitely varies. Oh man, this is a good one. I'm not touching this one, man.
Okay, I can touch it.
All right, touch it.
Is sourcing becoming easier? You know, it's, it's not the case. Um, you know, I mean, yes, there are a lot more people available, but again, you want to be able to utilize the same methodology and screening techniques. I mean, there are some people that are pretty eager because they don't have a job, but you still have to stick with your standards of screening these individuals. And so no, it's not becoming easier. I mean, it's, you know, you've probably got a lot more people to look at. That's really what the case is. And so you've got to be, you know, diligent about looking through the individuals that are available. So.
Right. That's true. So in other words, this is something that I've maintained for a while, not now, not, not just for the pandemic, but for a while. Um, it's— what we do isn't about finding a needle in a haystack. That's actually pretty easy. Um, it's finding a needle in a stack of needles. In other words, sourcing isn't about, uh, you know, there's only one candidate out there, and if you type in these three keywords bing, the candidate pops up and they're the only one. No, that's not the case, man. You type in those 3 keywords and you get 27,000 candidates that all have those skills. So now you got to go a little bit deeper, and then you do the outreach and you get 20 people that reply, and you got to talk to them, and you got to figure out which one of those 20 that you talk to are qualified or not qualified, or the hiring manager is going to like or not like. And once you got your 10 that you qualified, that you like, that you think the hiring manager is going to like, You still have to figure out which ones you're going to present first because you don't want to send the hiring manager 10 people like my buddy that used to only send 1 or 2 at the most. So it's, it's not about sourcing isn't boiling the ocean to get to the pearl. Sourcing is more like, do we need a pearl? What type of pearl? Is it a white pearl, black pearl? Is it a gray pearl? How big does the pearl need to be? Does it really need to be a pearl or it can be, you know, does it need to be Can it be natural or can it be manufactured? You know what I'm saying? And so once you have all the answers, once you know it's got to be an organic pearl, it's got to be an organic black pearl from the Pacific, now you have to go find several pearls to fit, find the one that's the right size and shape and quality. That's sourcing. It's, it's, it's a needle in a stack of needles. All of them look alike, but the one that you need is in there somewhere. And, and, you know, you can't just type a keyword, you get the results.
Yep, yep, that's exactly right. Well said.
Anyway, yeah, let's, uh, we gotta wrap up because we're a little bit over time here, but can you, can you, can you give us one knockout question? Something that you would ask, always ask a sourcer, and it would like literally say, you know, in or out, right? Like, if you can get this right, I'll continue the interview. If you can't get this right, we're done.
Uh, let me think about that one. You know, for me, it's always about value and, uh, what, what you can bring to the table.
Um, sure, but that's the quality of the sourcer I'm talking about. Do you have one question that would literally, like, just not— if you can't do this, you are fully out? It's not whether or not you're the best of the, the candidates, but you're just completely fully out, right?
Okay. One of them would be, could you create a Boolean string for me right now that would, you know, for a software engineer, backend development, listing the skills and create a Boolean string with the actual location. And I think you would ask me this question too. For me, it's a pretty simple Boolean string.
Like how would you use a location?
How would you put in a location? Like for me, You've got— if you can do that, you can create some magic.
Okay, fair enough. Appreciate it, man. Thanks a lot for your time, and it's good to have you here.
Yeah, good to see you, Kelly.
Yeah. All right, thanks everybody. Have a great weekend. See you next Friday.
Bye.
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