Ben Blundell Live on Shally's Alley

Hey everybody, what is up? You are live on Shelly's Alley. It is May 23rd, Friday, and a little bit after 1 PM US Eastern time. Excuse me, I'm still recovering from my bronchitis. But, uh, guys, I have a— I have some disappointing news. My guest today recently took— this is his first week at a new job, and he had some important conflicts that got scheduled over our appointed time, literally today. So it's, it's going to be impossible for him to make it. So we're going to reschedule and he'll be back. So if you wanted to hear Ben Lundell, formerly from OpenAI, he will be here possibly in 2 weeks. If not, I'll make sure and announce the date. So instead I thought, you know what would be really interesting would be a follow-up to the conversation that we were having about high volume recruiting and blue collar. And I was sharing the conversation with my daughter who is a teenager, a 17-year-old who is currently in the, job seeker world. She's been looking for a job and has held a couple of positions and had some, well, let's just say some really interesting experiences that lined up really well with the problems that were identified in our previous podcast about employer ghosting and fake jobs and all that kind of stuff. So as I was telling her about the show, it seemed to really kind of resonate with her. So I thought, you know, it would be a really good idea to revisit some of those points of view from the perspective of an actual teen job seeker who has recently entered the workforce and is looking for a decently paying job at a place where they can feel safe and comfortable. And so today I have with me off camera, but in audio only, my daughter, Sam. Say hi, Sam. Hi. All right, hopefully they can hear you. If not, then too bad. I'll translate the, the answers. So I have a couple of questions related to what we've talked about before. Um, I, I see you scrolling on your phone mostly for job posts. I mean, you have a job now and you're really happy with this job, but you held a couple of other jobs before, and you and I did a lot of job searching together, and I know you did a lot of scrolling on your own, but mostly you've been using your phone, right? Like almost all the job searching that you do, you didn't do it on a computer, you did it on your mobile, right? So when you're scrolling job posts, what makes you stop and tap apply versus just like keep scrolling?

Um, the more details, I guess, uh, the better.

Details on the job?

Yeah, so like listing sort of the needs and what, what they are expecting from the job. And, um, and also just the, the job title as well on Indeed, like what it says, if it has a little bit more information than just like retail associate or something like that.

So you'd like to see a job title that's descriptive not generic. And then you want to see some details like maybe salary information or like what you're expected to do. Um, are there any perks, things like that? Those kinds of things catch your attention. Yeah. And what makes you just scroll right past generic titles or—

Yeah, when it's very unclear. Um, sometimes, I mean, on Indeed they offer the option to see like how far away a building is from you. And if it doesn't even have the distance on it, I don't think it's really worth it because then it just doesn't seem like it's even a real building in the first place to even go to. Um, and sometimes it's just kind of unclear and like sort of like, what would I even be doing at this job?

So, so you just scroll right past it?

Yeah.

So you want to have like an actual business, maybe something you recognize, or you can Look up. All right. So you do Google. Now, um, of course, you know, you have the, the advantage and disadvantage of working with your dad, um, you know, within, in our family business and things like that. So of course, you know that I know everything and I tell you how to do everything. I'm always right, of course. So I'm sure that I've told you many different ways to go out and look for work. And you've tried them, to your credit, you listened to me even though you knew I was wrong and still went out and did that. Of the different techniques and places you went that you tried, was there anything other than Indeed that you actually used to apply for a job or did you try a bunch of stuff and none of it really worked? Is there anything other than Indeed that actually worked?

Not really. I would sometimes look on Yelp and other things like Near Me for smaller businesses or recently opened stuff that wouldn't be as busy or as well known because usually— actually, I won't get into that.

But yeah, the more like the larger companies have a lot of applicants and it's harder to get their attention.

Okay.

Um, I know that you, you had some experience with, you know, applying for jobs and just never hearing back. In fact, that was probably what happened most frequently, especially with the other destinations besides Indeed, you know, some of the ones that you tried, like ZipRecruiter, um, Monster, CareerBuilder, LinkedIn, all those where you just applied and just like never heard back. What's going through your mind? I want to kind of set the stage for psychologically what you're going through when you're applying for— I don't even know how many— let's take a guess. How many jobs do you think you actually applied for until you found this one that you have now?

Probably like 40 to 50 jobs.

That's a lot. And these are local jobs where you would think they'd want to talk to you, right?

Uh-huh.

So what's going through your mind when you apply for these jobs and like you never hear back? Are you just like, whatever, no big deal? Or what happens?

I, so sometimes on Indeed it says it's got this little like note or something up top that says usually responds within 1 to 2 days. So I like to look for that and apply to jobs like that that say they'll respond pretty fast. And still a lot of those jobs, I don't hear much back from them.

Even though they say they respond. Yeah.

But I try not to— if they're going to respond, then let them, I guess. But I don't know, maybe it's not everything is meant to be.

Right. We talked a little bit about this, but can you share how it was I just want to say discouraging. I mean, you applied for a bunch that you really liked.

Yeah.

And then you never heard back and you like, were so skeptical. Next time, you know, that you hesitated to apply and it just took a while to kind of get used to that ghosting until you finally just like, okay, I'm just going to apply for whatever I think looks really good. And you got picky about it. And that's when you started getting calls. So did you, did you learn something from that or it literally just A volume game, click, click, click until something works.

Yeah, I think sometimes I would get pretty frustrated and would sort of resort to the, I'm just gonna apply to literally everything I see that doesn't look totally sketchy. And whatever, you know, whoever responds to me responds. But you know, at this point I don't have enough job experience for me to be that picky. So I'm open to learn anything, but you know, people are always expecting a lot more experience for jobs that really don't require that much experience.

That's interesting. Tell me more about that. So it's like entry-level job, but they already expect you to know this stuff.

Yeah. Like my first job, it was my very first job working, you know, with an actual company and getting steady-ish pay, um, and working with a manager and a boss in a— in a— it was a pretty decently big company. But, um, I forgot what I was saying. What was the question?

Well, what did you learn from like these jobs that, that ghosted you and you rece— and you finally did get a response and it was quick and, uh, they interviewed right away And then you got the job, but then something else happened. Yeah, they expected you to have all this experience. You went in there and they hired you anyway, and there was supposed to be training, but yeah.

So yeah, they like, during the interview they were like, I usually don't hire people with that, like, as little experience as you do. And I just thought that was a little bit strange because it was a retail job and really all you have to do is just, you know, learn how to I mean, you don't even have to learn. I think everybody knows how to sweep a floor and hang clothes up on a hanger. So I didn't understand why they expected so much, but they still hired me anyways and said they were gonna train me but never did.

But then they just never trained you. So with Ryan on our last episode, we talked about that. We talked about how employers are looking for people with qualifications even though the job doesn't really require very many. You know, being able to communicate and lift a box and things like that are the minimum requirements for these entry-level jobs. But yet when they bring somebody in, they just expect them to know the job and they're not providing a whole lot of training. So it's almost like they want the experience in the door, but they aren't willing to teach.

Yeah.

Explaining, they're just not willing to teach people how to do even basic things. Why do you think they're not willing to teach? Like if you had to guess, why you were told you were going to get training but then you didn't. Why do you think that happened? Um, it's a stab in the dark, but like, what does your gut tell you?

I think, um, I think it might just be sort of tradition to have others just teach everybody, but not everybody is, you know, the best teacher. And, um, It just so happened to be that most of the time the people who are training me or trying to teach me are just as new as I am, maybe been there for like a month or two, um, and don't really know as much anyways. And then the older people who've been there longer just don't really have time. They've got more stuff on their plate than dealing with me and me not knowing what to do. So I sort of just get left in the dust of like I don't know what to do and nobody's gonna help me because I don't know what to do.

And it's kind of hard to go up to somebody like, excuse me, can you tell me what to do?

Yeah, like every 3 seconds, you know, I finished this task and then I'm like, well, now what? Yeah, yeah.

And then they're not used to dealing with that, but they want the people to already kind of have the experience. So, um, switching topics a little bit, The job titles you were talking about earlier, as you're scrolling, they can be pretty, pretty obscure. When you did searches for jobs, did you actually search for job titles or for like skills or you said location? So that's one criteria. Are they close to you?

Yeah.

But what else did you, when you type into search, what else did you search for?

Well, I wouldn't really put in a specific job title because A lot of the stuff that I'm interested in, you know, I need to be a lot older and have more experience, like graduated school or some kind of degree or something like that. So I just try to look for stuff near me that hires teenagers so I can build that experience up so I have more luck getting the jobs I want to in the future.

So it was mostly about the location and the fact you could look up the company Um, but the search terms were pretty—

yeah, and it was sort of just like people who are willing to hire teenagers because not everybody hires.

That's true.

Yeah, that's right.

You found out that some organizations won't hire someone who isn't— I know that's a double negative, but they won't hire people that are 17 and younger. Yeah, even though they can drive, they can get to work, but they have to be 18. Yet similar jobs at other places willingly hire, you know, 15, 16, 17-year-olds. And that's kind of where you arrived at the local business. They were more open to the age. So, um, as, as you were running this, this search, did you ever run into like outright fake job postings or did you get approached? Did you get those text messages that I get of like the spam? Yeah. They're like spam jobs and they're totally fake. Right.

Yeah, I remember I got this one job opportunity or, you know, I don't even know what to call it, but they had texted me on my number and they were like, hey, we have this job opening for you. And at the time I didn't know what was real or not. So I responded and I was like, oh, well, like, what's the details of the job? Like, who even are you guys? You got my number and you're not, you're not even going to explain anything about your business. And so I asked them who they are and they gave me a little bit of information, I guess, on the job. But then I said that I was not 18 and they were like, okay, nevermind. And I don't know. Yeah.

So they're reaching out to you, but they don't even know how old you are.

Yeah.

It's like totally random. Yeah. What tipped you off that it was fake or when you got other messages? What was, The telltale where you're like, oh, this is definitely fake.

Um, I guess a lot of incorrect grammar. It sort of looks, um, just not right. Just doesn't make that much sense. Like, if you really read into it and like look like in between the lines and stuff, it's just like, just doesn't really— nothing really adds up in the messages.

Oh, like, so the description is kind of like— Yeah, opposites or things that aren't related or they don't make sense of the job. Okay. Have you done anything about it? Like, do you report them? Do you, uh, or you just kind of ignore?

Um, I either ignore and ignore them, or if I delete the message, you know, on the Messages app there's a, um, You can delete and report.

Yeah.

So I just report them and then delete the message.

And that blocks it, but they still keep finding your number.

Yeah. I mean, it looks like different people every time. I just don't know who they are. I mean, I can see the numbers and it's like not even, you know, the same sort of area code.

Right. Just totally random from different places.

Yeah.

Okay, so we talked a little bit about ghosting on the, on the other end of the process, right? When you apply and then you never hear back. But there's also some ghosting that you experienced where you, when you talk to them, they would call you and you would have a conversation and they left it with, we're gonna call you back, and then they never did. Or you went and you met with them and then they said, hey, we'll give you a call, and then like They never called, you called them, they never called you back, like you left messages and it was almost like they just completely disappeared. What happens to you, how does that shape your opinion of that brand? And I don't wanna name names, but you know, some of these brands are recognizable, at least to the local community, might even be national brands, where they ghosted you and now, and you're seeing this as almost like a consumer of the brand, Does that— can you divorce the two? Can you separate the impact of getting ghosted for a job and being loyal to the brand, or does that really affect how you feel about that brand?

Um, most— I don't really— it doesn't really matter that much to me. I guess I can sort of separate the two.

So if you get ghosted, you don't take it personally, but it does —It is strange.

—It's so rich. Yeah, it does put me off a little bit, but—

But then you're like, I'm not— you're not gonna boycott the brand and never buy that.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, you know, everybody's a little bit busy all the time. There's always, you know, rushes and with big, big brands and stuff like that, there's always people trying to reach them in interviews constantly. I mean, when I would go to interviews, I was never the only one interviewing. There was always more people and like there would, and on the Indeed app would say sometimes would say like, talk about, um, um, uh, uh, now I've, I've lost my train of thought.

Sorry, we had a good comment. Yeah. Here, ghosting is a lack of basic consideration. Yeah. So you're not gonna like boycott the product or But it does affect you. Do you at least have some sort of like, you carry a little bit of a negative vibe about the product and maybe eventually it goes away?

Yeah, a little bit.

A little bit. Like that one retail job that you got where they didn't give you the training. Would you ever go back and shop there?

No. And I actually, it's funny enough, I tell all my friends to not ever go back. But I do think it's different because it's not like it was just an interview and they never called me back. But it was like an actual job that I was holding. Building and got paid a few times and were mistreated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's different.

And that definitely affects your brand, but just the simple no response is not that big a deal. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, your generation, I've, we've talked to a few other people, you know, experiencing similar things. Um, your peers, like your, your friend Mark's son, And your generation kind of expects a different tempo of communication. You know, like my generation, you know, we might apply for a job and wait for a couple of days or a week before we start wondering, did they get the application? But with, with your cohort, the timing is a little different, right? I mean, do you guys expect almost like instant, or maybe not instant, but do you expect like, what is to you a reasonable time to respond when you apply? What would you consider to be an acceptable response time?

Either honestly within a few days, maybe 2 days. I guess a week is fine, but you know, after a week I've applied to so many other jobs that, you know, it sort of just like, I don't even remember applying to this. Like I don't even know what I would be doing here, let alone, you know, I sort of just mass apply to places. So I'm like, I didn't even really care that much for this job in the first place.

So if you really had, if you had your preference, it would be within a couple of days, day or two. Yeah. Okay. Now when they respond, what's the expectation you feel that they have of you? So if they say, hey, we're interested, do you get the feeling that they want you to respond immediately? Even if it's like 10 o'clock at night? Or do you feel like they're okay with waiting?

Well, from my experience, if you don't respond as soon as possible, they'll never get back to you. Yeah.

Okay, so they're waiting 2 days, but then when they get back to you, they want an instant answer.

Pretty much immediate. And if you don't respond, then— I mean, because usually how it goes is they get my application and then they want to set up an interview or talk to me. And, you know, sometimes I don't see that till a little bit later because I'm not going to be consistently checking Indeed every 2 hours. And it comes only from Indeed, it doesn't go to your phone? Yeah, just through the messages on Indeed sometimes. Sometimes it texts me or calls, but anyways, so they said try and set up an interview, but it's like they only want to see me like the next day or like right away is when they can can do the interviews. Um, so it's sort of, uh, you know, kind of like, and then if I don't respond, then they're like, yeah, exactly right, exactly.

It's not that it's competitive, it's like they just wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, and then when they're ready to go, it's, it's right now or never.

Yeah, because I'm sure I'm not as special as anybody else, like Well, it's entry-level jobs.

Yeah, yeah. You know, when they meet you, you might be more likable than other candidates, you might have better communication skills. There are some differentiating factors that might elevate one candidate over another, but if you don't get in the door when they have their interview day, then they fill the job and move on. The problem that Ryan was talking about, he gave one example which I shared with you and you about fell off your chair. Um, where they're filling the same job— the employer is filling the same job as many as sometimes 10 times. So like, they have an interview day, they hire someone, that person doesn't show up to work or quits, or they fire them or whatever, and they have to hire again, and they have to hire again, and they do that. So instead of taking a little bit more time to hire the right person and being a little bit more, um, picky— yeah, picky and making a better match— they just kind of get whoever which then backfires in, well, whoever just left. So now they gotta get whoever again and again and again. They're using almost like the, the first couple of days on the job as an interview, basically, you know, like, yeah, to check, to, to, to— he called it a test run, and that's not the right way to do it. Um, and speaking of that, sometimes— last question I have for you on that, because I know you only had a little bit of time here— sometimes, um, people in your cohort, your, you know, teens are ghosting recruiters and like they bail on the interview or they just don't show up to the interview. What do you feel triggers that decision? What is it that in your mind is like, you know what, I'm just gonna not show rather than let them know I'm not coming, say no thanks, you just not show. What's the trigger for that? What would, what's the trigger and what would make it not be?

What can recruiters do to prevent that? Um, I'm not sure. I think it could depend on— maybe it's personal, maybe it's something like they got a job that they're more interested in, or maybe they just aren't, you know, totally capable of showing up. Or, I mean, I'm not saying that that's totally okay, but that it could be possibilities like that. And it also could be maybe they didn't have the best experience with the interview, didn't really like the people or the environment so much. It could be a lot of different things, and I guess it just sort of varies from person to person. Whoever you ask might have a different—

I have a different reason for doing that. But why not? Why doesn't it occur to them to send a quick message saying, hey, no thanks, or no thanks? Why not do that if it's a very simple I mean, it's a basic courtesy and it doesn't take a lot of effort. Yeah. Why are they not doing that? Is there some sort of fear that holds them back, or is there some sort of societal kind of like a new rule that we adults don't know about?

Um, like for not showing up to like the first—

for not just texting or emailing saying, sorry, I'm not making it, I'm not gonna make it. Um, instead of just ghosting, right? But ghosting is like, you don't— the, the employer doesn't even know that you're not interested. If you just sent a quick message and said, you know what, changed my mind, I'm not interested, at least you would inform them. So why aren't teens doing that, that little thing?

Honestly, it could be due to a lack of respect for companies and businesses and work. I've noticed a lot of self-sabotagey characteristics in a lot of people around my age. Um, so yeah, something like that. Or they like believe that the job isn't worthy, or, you know, stuff like that. Or like, you know, the job isn't gonna really care if I don't show up and not text, or whatever.

Um, you know, stuff like that, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I, I think— is there also a little bit of retribution fear? Like, if you text, hey, I'm not gonna go, is there a fear that they're gonna come back and confront you? Like, why not? Why didn't you Is there a little bit of that or no? Is that—

I mean, I'm not imagining that. Maybe.

Maybe. Yeah. Kind of reminds me of that song. I was gonna go to work, but then I got high. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Sam. I think this is gonna help some recruiters that are working on, on, you know, these issues and, um, you know, Companies need to hire people your age. Entry-level jobs are a huge part of the economy.

Do you think just help people train people, teach people to be— if you're not going to have the time of day to train new employees, teach others to be able to train the employees. And if you still can't do that, then learn how to teach people yourself. I think just knowing how to do, you know, having people work and know what they're doing is gonna be a lot easier for your company to run more smoothly.

So yeah, if that makes any sense. Ryan made that point actually, so I'm glad you reinforced that. Yeah. His point was, you know, everybody should be taught how to train new hires. I mean, it's everybody's job. It's not just, you know, one person who was the training officer. And so, and what he was saying is just take a chance on, sometimes I feel like maybe they just need to teach you how to work, like how to actually, you know, like the ethics of work or the ethos, like, hey, okay, well, you're at work, you're not supposed to be on your phone because you may not know that. I'm not saying you, but like a teen may be like on their phone all the time with their parents and at school. And adults don't think that they're paying attention, but they really are. Then they go to work and they're on their phone and the adults don't think he's paying attention, but he is. So maybe just be like, hey, when you're at work, the expectation is, right? Basic stuff that they just may not even be aware that they don't know. So I like that you said that. Yeah, any other closing thoughts as we end our episode today? Anything else you want? If you have an open mic to tell every recruiter in the world something that they could do right now? What would be the one thing that you wish all recruiters did immediately?

I want everybody to give everybody the time of day. Give everybody an opportunity and a chance. You know, not everybody has a lot of experience, but if they're a hard worker and they want the job, then You know, they can prove that, but you just need to give people time to learn the job and to get used to the people and the environment. You can't just like, I mean, I know trial runs are important, but also like maybe they don't do so good the first month 'cause they're a little bit nervous. Put some effort into it, right? Yeah. Like give them the time of day and, you know, train them and Be kind, I guess, like be welcoming. That's a courtesy.

Yeah. Well, that's a really good way to end the show. Thanks for being on the show, Sam. Appreciate it. Um, all right, everybody, we don't have time for anything else, so we're going to wrap up here. But next week we have a, uh, special guest. We always have special guests. Um, next week is Cassandra Dent, who used to work with me at Fiserv, and she was VP of TA there and has now gone out and started her own firm. She's gonna have a lot of cool stories to share about executive search and corporate strategy and things like that. And the week after that is Jim Stroud, my, my brother from another mother. We go way back, probably what, 25 years? And then hopefully we'll get Ben to come back. So that is the agenda coming up. I will see you next week. Until then, be kind to yourselves.