Career Reinvention and Community Building with Anna Morgan

Hello, hello! Oh, I snuck up on you, didn't I? Caught you on a good moment. Hi everybody, you are live on Shelly's Alley. It is Friday, February 20th. It is always Friday on Shelly's Alley, my favorite day of the week, because basically Friday is the new Saturday, Saturday is the new Sunday, and Sunday is the new Monday. Isn't that too true though? So here we are, Friday, Shelly's Alley, with very special guest, Anna Morgan. Hi, Anna, how's it going?

Hi, friend, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on here for sure. So folks, for, for an introduction, Anna is the creator of the Evolve podcast for TA and HR and also the Evolve Conference, which just actually occurred not that long ago, a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah, I feel like I'm finally coming out of my Evolve Conference coma.

So coming right—

yeah, it's a lot of life.

Yeah. So put together, and this is— this was your second or third year for the Evolve Conference?

Just my second. So it was definitely a leveling up experience.

So pretty amazing. It was a great—

grateful that you were a part of it.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, you invited me to that. And Um, yeah, we've, we've known of each other for quite some time.

Yeah.

Um, and you're also the founder of Career BFF. So you got a podcast, you got a conference, you got your Career BFF, um, and, and just the passion and the enthusiasm to build community, which was what we wanted to talk about today. But I wanted to kind of get people, you know, give people a little bit of a glimpse of like your, your your personal reinvention story about, you know, career reinvention being the theme for today. You know, you, you've actually reinvented yourself a few times: recruiter, consultant, shiny object syndrome, founder, ADHD entrepreneur. Yeah, and the FIRST Conference creator. And well done with that. What, what was What was the trigger, the moment that you realized reinvention wasn't optional but necessary?

Yeah, I mean, for me, it comes down to radical honesty with ourselves, right? In regards to the day-to-day work we're doing and how we feel about it, right? And if you're not, and you're in conflict and collusion about the work that you're doing, if it is not aligned with your values or impacts your integrity in some way, then you can get sick and you can burn out and you can underperform, right? So, for me, one radical honesty for me was developed when I got sober from alcohol more than 12 years ago. And that was kind of the beginning of that healing journey. And then the golden thread throughout my career coming up in agency Navigating that whole world alcohol-free and being a top producer and full-cycle recruiter. Like, I loved, you know, the sales and the partnership with my sourcing and recruiting teams. Um, then to Fortune 500, you know, corporate talent, uh, to a layoff like many of our peers in 2020. And in that place was taking fast action to start coaching job seekers, and that you know, evolved from the Job Search Hotline show with Michael Goldberg to, you know, a year plus on Clubhouse with my job search angels, to, you know, a year and a half of Ask a Recruiter on LinkedIn audio events serving about 10K+ job seekers over that period of time with the help of other, you know, stage guests like yourself and Heather Colvin and Tabitha Cavanaugh and Brian Fink. Um, and then, you know, that really segued into— I had been attending some events and I'm like, why, why didn't I know about these events when I was coming up and recruiting? You know, the most training I received was, you know, the bullpen, uh, objection role-playing, right? How are you gonna handle this on your, your cold calls? And, um, Then I had, you know, kind of paid attention and I was loving being in community and in person. You know, secretly I was lonely being an entrepreneur and, you know, getting back into these conferences like TalentNet and Transform and, you know, ERE and the Recruiting Innovation Summit. I was so enamored by the experience and what they had built. And I was like, I want to build my own stage. And vulnerably, that's how Evolve evolved. It did evolve, evolve, right? So I had also put my hat to speak. I thought I wanted to be a public speaker in this space, and I was not getting accepted. And so for all of you that put your hat in for speaking, don't stop doing that. But radical honesty, I realized I didn't really want to be a speaker. Where I find the most joy and that North Star is being able to pass the mic to other people in our space and even people out of the space to really foster innovation and diversity of thought. And so I said, if not now, when? I'm going to build my own stage on my 50th birthday and create an experience with my community and phoned all my friends and said, I'm putting together—

you phoned me, that's right.

Yeah, uh, it's my birthday, come for the learning and stay for the party. Um, and so that's how the first Evolve came to life, and I had 75 attendees, uh, 10 sponsors, and 16 speakers, and, uh, we had a ball. And that was really like a signal that, you know, there's enough to go around. And, you know, why not build more spaces where our community from IC to executive have a seat at the table to have conversations that could be both about healing and mental health and well-being, but also AI, tech, recruiting, innovation, you know, efficiency and the future of work, essentially. Um, and then this year we leveled up, probably 150 to 200 in-person attendees, uh, 4 tracks, you know, pretty cool, 25 speakers, and, um, you know, 10+ partners. And, uh, we got some cool—

I know you managed to get some great vendors on there too, so that was pretty awesome. So it sounds like basically this evolution Um, it was— it started as survival and then it became sort of, uh, an identity shift.

Yeah.

Um, and then— and you learn somewhere along the way, you, you learned— I, I'm guessing, reading between the lines, you learned through hard knocks how to build community. Because based on what I saw at Evolve and, um how you interacted with everybody there and how people— how people were interacting with you, which is also very important. You've, you've clearly got the community building down pat, like, you know, but that's— and that's a rare skill set. Building community is rare. And I'm sure you, you made a lot of mistakes on the way there.

So many. So, so many.

Yeah, because I'm still making them and I still haven't figured it out. Um, so you're way ahead of me.

That's how we get better, right? Like, yeah, yeah.

I'm not knocking the mistakes. I'm all for the mistakes. It's just, um, saying that, you know, you must have learned quite a bit through that process of reinvention and rebranding and trying to build communities. So what would you say is the difference between rebranding yourself and actually reinventing? Because I mean, one thing is like, I, I think people do rebranding often just for the sake of it. Like, they— like, I don't know if you, if you followed that, that, um, the, the hysteria around, um, the restaurants. I forgot the name of it.

I was like, Cracker Barrel.

Remember where they tried to do the rebranding and it like seriously backfired? Like, did they really need to rebrand? I mean, they didn't really need to. So sometimes people just kind of rebrand for no reason.

Well, yeah, I mean, like, honestly, like, in entrepreneurship, you know, starting out, they always tell you, like, don't overly focus on the logo and the landing page. Like, you know, just start. And that was definitely a lot of my advice. But, you know, I feel kind of bad.

What's that difference, right, between, like, just rebranding and reinventing? Like, where—

well, it's like they think, you know, the branding is what's gonna bring in the conversations or the opportunities, right? And so I think the human nature is like, let me gravitate towards refreshing my colors and my logos, my website. Just like job seekers overly focus on, it's my resume, it's my resume. Well, the real hidden truth is that they're not comfortable networking or flexing and working that relationship building skill. Because if I think back to corporate, you know, where I had success was like, I always operated as an owner. Within corporate, and I built my brand within corporate. Um, and then those things were ex— you know, career accelerators, and, um, you know, opened more doors because I had natural ability to build relationships quickly and get access, which is ultimately influence. And when you have access and influence then you can really grow your community exponentially.

Access and influence. But then there's also— it's more than just access and influence.

Yeah, it is.

And it's, it's also trust, because these people were trusting that you weren't gonna, you know, let them down.

I wasn't gonna have you in the back of the Denny's, uh, we're trying to like oversell them or anything like that, right? Yeah. Well, and I think with the disruption in our space right now, trust is a huge component of, I think, the entire ecosystem that we're navigating right now. And the way I'm focusing on maintaining that trust is one, failing in public and building in public. And, you know, not just putting the highlight reel out there. I, you know, I've shared about my family being in crisis, like, leading up to Evolve and how I was trying to navigate some really heavy stuff at the time, you know, this was about to happen. Um, yeah, you know, I think the other thing is, um, you know, showing up for others the way you would hope that they show up for you. Um, and it's— I've been you know, really nourishing and building that trust over my whole career. And that, you know, is that accelerator and what, you know, makes that tipping point into, you know, being able to make some bold moves like I have and having options of saying, all right, I don't want to build an agency, I'm, you know, kind of stepping out of coaching and in this fourth quarter of my career, I love doing Evolve. It didn't feel like work. It freaking fires me up. And, um, you know, we have enough people in this space to serve from a, a wide variety of, you know, avenues and lanes. And, um, you know, I'm excited to just bring more people together in service of helping us all be better.

So this event now is— this is going to be your full-time job? Yeah, no more career ADHD.

I mean, one of the many humble lessons I've learned through this journey is the negative effect of career ADHD. Yeah, definitely, you know, build some of those systems and, uh, have some foundational components around, you know, operations. Like, I'm a great salesperson and recruiter, But when it comes to the other stuff, I'm glad I know a lot of people that can help me out.

Right. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I'm not sure if we kind of got to the difference between rebranding and reinventing.

Yes. So I was saying, like, I was lucky I didn't necessarily have to reinvent in a way. Um, and rebranding, um, is storytelling, right? And your story changes throughout, um, you know, your layoff in 2020 to, you know, the work that you've done. Um, you know, I think the key thing around that—

rebranding— I mean, I've done that a few times now, but there's always like this essential brand. I mean, I'm known worldwide as, you know, the king of sourcing, or whatever, godfather of sourcing, that I was scared, right? But there's also other things that I do, and so I've tried to rebrand Yeah, that. But as it hasn't really been, like you said, it hasn't really been reinventing per se, because it wasn't like, you know, like I didn't just become a physicist or, you know, right. But people, it was learning new skills.

Yeah.

Um, and kind of letting go and learning to let go of the older identity where I wasn't— I'm not attached anymore to, you know, if people talk about sourcing, I'm like, yeah, it's definitely, you know, that's something I do, but it's not all I do, right?

It's—

yeah. It's part of, you know, and sure I mastered it, but I'm mastering other things now. So—

And that's a pillar of your brand, right? And I mean, bottom line, the human connection and trust factor comes from your face and your name. And then, you know, what follows from that, you speaking on a stage, doing workshops, volunteering, you know, being in other, you know, subgroups and communities really are part of what that brand is. And, you know, as soon as you think you got it nailed, you know, then another else changes it for you. Well, yeah, and action creates clarity. And while sometimes you get down on yourself and like, oh, now I have to change this again about my business because I'm in that place of, you know, implementing a CRM, the website, you know, and transferring, uh, URLs and all the things.

And what do you think is harder though? Do you think it's harder to learn the new skills to do that, like learning how to be a conference MC, how conference work— or is it harder to let go of like your old self? Which one's harder?

That's a great question. I mean, what first came up for me was 50/50, because I did have a moment where I was like, oh shit, I'm letting go. Oh, sorry.

Um, yeah, you were letting go of like the contingency placement and all that. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And that I'm— oh my God, I'm no longer a coach of relevance. Yeah, because I'm not working an order today, right?

right?

And people need to remember, like, again, having folks on stage, you know, that aren't active practitioners or haven't been for a long time, you know, as long as they're industry adjacent and touching the world of work, like, they still have value and expertise and authority to share. And so I had to kind of sit in those uncomfortable feelings being like, okay, yeah, this is new and I am not an event person. I'm creative. I'm sales and marketing. I love, like, bringing my vision to life. Um, and then my recruiting expertise helps me source and, you know, hire all the people that I need to execute. And then, um, and then I just totally lost my train of thought.

Well, we were talking about reinventing versus learning new skills, so really kind of bring that back, ground that back in, into the— what did you have to— what were the new— what was a stretch for you learning how to become, evolve?

Oh yeah, so the whole event piece.

And yeah, right, which is a nightmare, by the way.

Oh my God, it's so hard to keep everybody happy.

You can't, you can't keep everybody happy.

And as a recovering people pleaser, like, you know, I hear you there.

So I made this huge mistake. I used to put on an event, um, locally in Atlanta. That was a regular—

yeah, so we all have been doing this a way long time, but it wasn't a conference, it was a workshop.

So it was like basically a full-day master class, and people would come in from all over the, the country to attend these classes. And I was so like— I, I wanted to make sure I had a nice venue, people had a good place to stay. I made sure there was plenty of, you know, breakfast treats, coffee, snacks, lunch. And a nice dinner and all that. And so the food was really good, and I got compliments from people like, wow, this is really, you know, awesome food and everything. And we, we ran this for a number of years, um, and it just, it, it was really challenging to stay profitable because hotels would like charge you back if somebody didn't show up.

Oh my gosh, yeah, no, I know.

So I'm relating to, you know, I'm relating with you here. Yeah. Um, And then I, I started, I asked people at the next one, I'm like, so, you know, how you really, are you liking the rooms, the food, everything? Oh yeah, it's great. Like, is, is this like, would you come back to this event if the food or, you know, the venue were, were different? Like, you know, because I'm like, I'm spending half the budget in food. And they're like— and several people gave me the same sort of answer, which was, Shelly, we are not here for the food. We're here for the learning and to be with you and stuff like that. Like, you could literally hand out a bunch of sandwiches from Subway and we'd all be happy. And I was like, we don't know their audience. Yeah. I was like, really? They're like, yeah, don't worry about it next time. So then I was like, wow, I've been— I literally have been working for the food company, you know? Like, my job has been making them money because that's You know, and everybody's like, just put a pot of coffee and a case of soft drinks, you know, and a box of Oreos.

And I was like, you know what, that's—

so I didn't sometimes listen early enough, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, sometimes simplicity works. Um, the first year at Evolve, um, I hosted it at InfoMart, which is a, like, a woman-owned, uh, background check company here in Atlanta, like 30 years in business. Yeah, Tammy Cohen. She's like an OG female entrepreneur that, you know, we ran in similar circles, and she had an entire meeting space with a commercial kitchen. So we did it in that particular space. And then this year, when I decided I'm like a hotshot event planner, I'm gonna go with the Marriott. And as I, you know, went through that process, you know, I told the folks, like, I've never worked with a ginormous global company like Marriott. I am not an event person. This is my background. Like, I'm gonna need some handholding, and please forgive me for my dumb questions. Um, the TDLR of all of that is it was very traumatic experience for me. And now my sister is an official, a part, you know, partner of Evolve Events Company, and is someone that I've done a lot of stuff together already, like, in our space. And Shelley, she went toe-to-toe with the Marriott, um, because I had to stand up for myself. I said, I feel like I am just being raked over the coals here, and you want to try— this is what they do for $55 to plug in my outlet for my vendor. Like, really? You can't make an exception when I'm spending X, right? She saved me $10,000. Just through that conver— Oh wow.

Oh my God.

Yes.

So, and, and that, like, she came from an industry which is like used to doing that, right?

Well, yeah. And she's the director of sales for the Nashville Zoo. They were a partner. And, you know, uh, she's been running events, you know, uh, weddings, all the things for 15+ years. So, you know, she knows her stuff. And I, if I could not love a sister more on that Teams call, I was a And then once she crunched the numbers and said, you know, you would have overfed your guests, like they can make an exception. She got our room, uh, comped. I was like, I love you. So that was also like a radically honest kind of business career moment where I was like, there's my answer. Because I really had been looking for a partner and she was right there. So having that awareness and just leaning into that is really setting us up for doing some more awesome stuff the rest of this year. So awesome.

Yeah, repeating your word there. Sorry about that. But I wanted to ask you something. You know, you designed Belonging Intentionally.

Try.

Well, I mean, you designed it intentionally. I mean, you know, I think you did, but whether you didn't, the fact is you designed it intentionally. So, um, and I think you did. So would you say that community is the, is the new insurance policy for your career?

Like, I mean, I've been talking about like career insurance, you know.

Yeah, career insurance. Yeah. And is community that? Is that—

yeah, I mean, I really do think so, because if you, you know, pull back all the layers—

is your network more valuable, right, than your resumes.

I mean, are— do we want to split hairs and talk about the difference between your network and a warm and engaged community? I mean, we could—

no, I mean both. I mean, like, I mean, like, where it builds from, and— right, exactly, right. So building a community from your network is the career insurance?

I think so. And so again, kind of showing up, building in public, uh, having those public conversations in the comments, those convert to conversations. I know I'm a little chilly too.

Building in public, it's like, oh man, here you go, here's all the warts and all the mistakes and all this crap.

But if you think about it, like, I think about what I would have been inspired to see when I was coming up in recruiting. You know, luckily I read Matt Charney's blog like early on. That was like kind of my connection to our industry. But, you know, I try to share all different aspects of leadership lessons from, you know, whether it's humanity, because leadership shows up whether in marriage and parenting and navigating, you know, corporate life to, you know, transitioning into entrepreneurship. And it's, it's relatable. And so when we share relatable stories that accelerate trust, then, you know, like we were talking before we hit record, it attracts your tribe, and then it rejects those that are like, she's like Facebook, you know, type of energy. Um, so I feel like community building and the ability to create, you know, spaces where you can be of service but also be leveled up organically by the people in the room And that has been kind of the golden thread throughout all the shiny object community projects that I've worked on the last 5 years is that, um, the magic happened like on the Ask a Recruiter stage where I'd be listening to Brian and Heather, uh, and my other stage hosts and be like, oh, I didn't think about doing recruiting that way. And so there was this organic leveling up of us on stage, which then kind of moved into another container, Rise of the Recruiter, that Tab and I did for about a year. So just paying attention to that. And then I would say building and like making those moves in that moment, which oftentimes like as a creator is hard to do because like if you don't really hard to ride it, it's really hard. Um, you get left behind.

Yeah, if you don't pivot in time, you get left behind. If you pivot too early, or if you pivot too late, or if you just don't pivot— yeah. And sometimes if you pivot, you make the mistake, and it's hard to come back from having redirected, you know.

Yeah, if you have been having those public conversations, you know, networking and relation— like, prioritizing a balance between in-person networking and virtual Also, you know, that balance between tech and IRL experiences, right? I'm really trying to be cognizant of how much I'm leveraging AI and tech and, you know, hanging with my ChatGPT bud versus making sure that I'm keeping my human in-person.

Hanging with GPT?

Sure, right? So I can talk to people when I get out.

It's not really been my strength, believe it or not, talking to people. Not always my strength.

Well, I mean, you surprised me, uh, and I'm glad because of conferences we were able to, you know, get more FaceTime together and, uh, me realize that I didn't have to be scared of you for some reason.

That was hilarious when you came up to me, you're like, I didn't want to talk to you because you're so—

I was like, no, I don't want to do this show because he's gonna ask me some like really techie sourcey questions.

Oh my God.

I don't know.

I gotta work on that. I gotta work. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, career insurance. Like, I just think, yeah, anyone, whether entry level or, you know, experienced, like, start building community spaces and really prioritizing that is the best career insurance that one can have because all of those little touch points are like trust deposits, right? That's your, your social currency that is that trust builder. So when you do have a layoff or you want to bring people in to celebrate a new thing that you're working on, you have earned the right to then say, hey, Shelly, you're in Atlanta, can you come and speak at my conference? Right? All of those touch points and face time that we had together, you know, really was that depth that, you know, made that process to bring you into that experience so much smoother. And the same can happen for job seekers and, you know, other unexpected collaborations as well.

Unexpected collaboration. So I wanted to ask you something. This is a bit of a tough question, and I do— I know. Yeah, sorry. I know I kind of need to write it down. This is my thing, right? I get people comfortable and warm them up, and then I drop that like the 50-pound hammer on them. There's a lot of conferences.

Yes.

And very few of them really create what I would call belonging, where you feel like you belong. There was, in our industry, a conference where there was a great deal of belonging, and it's since eroded. But generally speaking, most of these events are just events. They're happenings, they're moments, they're not belonging. What separates an event from a movement?

Oh, an event from a movement. Really what I've seen and what I feel like the kind of evolved movement and momentum that I'm seeing is, you know, when you are intentional and inclusive, you know, that's from asking the right questions of your speakers to knowing your audience. Like, I'm just gonna be honest, I tend to attract neurospicy individuals, um, and, you know, so that's more of the content and vibes that I'm around. And so organically, I'm going to be more inclined to pay attention to that, right? Also, you know, caring about those things now and being more sensitive to things than I used to be. So, and just trying to figure out ways that I can be supportive and inclusive, from the food that, you know, I serve, making sure that I have vegan and dairy-free and gluten-free options to, you know, having those smaller rooms and the round tables was very intentional to really spark conversations. Now, there's all other things that I wanted to do that I didn't get to do around, you know, ways—

Yeah, you're evolving. Get it?

I know. There's only so much time. But I would like to, you know, have some— gamification ways for people to connect, um, or, uh, a way to go find people based on a—

that'd be fun.

Yeah, you know, different questions like, you know, who's done a TED Talk here, um, you know, who's known for this, you know.

And you— can I tell you a story of a really cool way to connect in a conference that, that I thought was pretty awesome? So there, there was a company that I worked with, and this was a TA conference internal, so Huge company, lots of TA people, you know, everything from HRIS to— it wasn't just recruiting, it was the entire, entire vertical function, right? Quite a large group, um, bigger than most, you know, recruiting conferences because it was everybody paid for by the, by the, by their employer. And they wanted to find a way to get people from like HRIS to connect with recruiting, or coordinators with HRIS, or, you know, HRBPs with, you know, stuff like that. And so every team was given a— every, every member, or every, every person, but every member of a team was given a, one of those like caliper things. What do you call it?

The carabiners?

Yeah, exactly. Everybody was given a carabiner, and your carabiner reflected your, your color. The color of your carabiner reflected your team. and it had your team name on it. So they were all different colors, right? But like, say the 20 of us that worked in here, we had the same one. And the challenge for the event was during the entire event, for the entire duration of the event, they didn't give you a specific— now is the time to— it was like, this is your carabiner, you can take it home with you if you want, okay? Or you can trade it.

Oh, okay.

The idea was to trade carabiners with the most people, and the person who ended up with the most colors— yeah, or, you know, different carabiners— was then granted some sort of prize.

Yeah, right.

And it forced people from groups to make alliances and go around swapping their carabiners so that eventually, like, one group ended up with Instead of 20 people with green, they ended up with 20 different colors, right? That was kind of the objective. Yeah. And so, um, that was fun because it gave me the opportunity to look around and be like, oh, that's a color I don't have, right? And then be like, what team are you in? And, you know, and it was totally during breaks, in between, in the hallway, at the social hour. It was a 2-day event, so it even happened at night. Yeah, during the social time and stuff like that. That was a lot of fun. Just— I'm not saying you should go do that.

Well, and those are things that, like, I've designed, I just didn't quite get to execute.

I mean, gamification, right?

I mean, I grew up in a household of, um, a family entertaining. And like, you know, my opa, my grandfather, you know, every Christmas Eve would have us play this game where he would come up with a theme and it would be a person, place, or thing, and he would tape it on our back. Oh, I wanted to say hi to Jason and Audra and everyone that's been in the comments. Thank you for being here. Um, So, and then you had to figure out what you were, you know. And, you know, work can be fun. And, you know, that was something honestly, like I struggled with in corporate because I was like, why don't you want to dress up as firefighters? We're in HR and talent, you know, and they're like, wah, wah. So if I can have fun in hosting my own conference, you know, you can bet your bippy I will.

Right, right.

You know, and that's from having a DJ in the hallway to—

but oh, That was fun. Yeah, that was— every time I walked by, I felt like I was being like— like I would feel like I was in a movie, like Rocky.

Like, yeah, it just, you know, keeps the energy up. To my photographer who encourages people, you know, to get their personality out, and, you know, those photos turned out fun. Yeah.

Um, I wanted to call out this. So Jason said something that, that reminded me that I wanted to ask— or not ask, but mention this. So, you know, in separating an event from a movement, you know, an event that's just an event, that's a moment that happens in time, and you go there, you take notes, you learn. That could be any classroom anywhere versus a movement where you have like memories that last for hopefully a while. One of the things that, what he mentioned on the chat there is that you intentionally designed psychological safety which I think in a room full of HR and TA leaders that can be very, um, uh, forward, let's just say, um, it's kind of hard to build psychological safety in a room full of people that are so used to talking about all the difficult things and difficult— you know, this is not a group of people that is used to being, um, you know, play— playing it safe. Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying?

Let's just say it— vulnerable. Yeah.

So how the hell did you put psychological safety in, in a setting where, like, I don't know, I was just like, I did not, you know, you didn't do it.

I wasn't exposed and I wasn't given tools to be, you know, an, an ally, like, early in my career and learning around, you know, just how to serve humanity in a bigger capacity, right? So, um, this is a skill that I'm developing as I'm doing it, right? And that's always going to go back to lived experience, you know, from that space of what worked or didn't work, right? And, but I feel like my, my strong opinion is that, you know, creating a psychologically safe environment is a space where, you know, we can have these leaders talk about healing and burnout. Decision fatigue, pandemic burn, whatever the latest, you know, vulnerable pain point is from a leading people standpoint, right? And build those spaces where we can kind of sit in that uncomfortable space. And through that, that's when those layers start coming off, right? Typically, what we may experience in other conferences in the hallways, right, where you talk about a difficult search or something and somebody said, holy cow, Shelley, like, I felt the same way, or whatever that might be. So I wanted to take those hallway experiences and put them, you know, into small breakout rooms in a, in a sense, um, and really kind of let things go organically from that space, but making sure that You know, supervising so it doesn't go off the rails because that can— right, yeah. And the, you know, communicating that this type of event is, you know, I don't want to be a blend of a retreat and a conference, but it's, um, these topics, whether it's parenting or aging parents or, um, you know, all the different things that we as humans navigate in the corporate world but aren't allowed to talk about, you know. Um, really bringing more of those conversations to the table. And kind of tying back in the movement piece, when I'm building something like this and I have awesome community members in my back pocket, right, when we're together, it goes from it being Anna Morgan's event to a community event where everyone's a part of, like, building it, where You know, we had some of the community calls beforehand and people were helping out, you know, with introductions to sponsors or email lists or an introduction to a big employer in Atlanta. And that for me is what I see as a movement where it's shifting from just an experience to something bigger and for me, more meaningful, because the more people that are a part of building this, One, it can be a little bit different, a little bit edgy, but very impactful. And really showing and being a part of this community and looking to people that have built these spaces way before me, Craig Fisher, Kara with TA Week, David with ERE. I mean, those folks are just icons and I have the utmost respect for what they built. Um, and I would love to, you know, figure out ways that these events can partner together and, you know, support the community on an either even bigger organic kind of way. Um, and that's the idealistic, uh, you know, future forward, uh, visionary, uh, ideas that I have around kind of this space, you know, because I feel like sometimes while we go for the networking. It just seems very much like a repeatable kind of experience. And, you know, I want to keep people safe, but also shake up their nervous system a little bit. Did you—

from, from what you heard and where— and the feedback and everything that you got at the event, Did you get a feeling for what people in HR and TA are not being honest about when it comes to burnout and reinvention? Yeah, what are we covering?

I mean, I think the common thread, and, you know, I hopped around different rooms, but, you know, I've had one-on-one time, you know, with this profile of leader, you know, for the past 2+ years. And it's that slippery slope, you know, when they're in that leadership role, um, transitioning into more authentic authority and vulnerability, especially if they haven't, um, been able to do any of their own healing work, is almost impossible, right? Um, and that all comes back to radical honesty with self, right? And if people have to get help before then they show up to work, in a different way, then they should definitely do that. Um, but yeah, they're afraid. They're, they are so taxed and so overburdened, um, you know, oftentimes running with way less people than they should, um, and tasked with compliance and putting out fires. And, you know, I believe in having HR and talent in the room together because I've been in rooms where we're not so kind to each other, but if we understand each other's function, um, and respect that and figure out better ways to work together, you know, that again will accelerate helping to calm the disruption in our space, I believe. Um, so yeah, they're not really talking about anything, and it's oftentimes like a privilege for them to get to an event like that. You know, what I really like to challenge is the companies that aren't prioritizing or giving their employees, you know, accurate budgets for professional development and continuing education, because that's important. Yeah.

And they keep cutting back. It's like the training— training/professional development is the first thing to go, um, right after the recruiters.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, and get sometimes, you know, recruiters are the first ones to come back.

Yeah.

But, um, so I, I wanted to— there's, there's an after-hours access to Shelly's Alley that's inside of my community. That's the—

oh, fun—

paid community. And, um, I wanted to offer folks something that they could get exclusively there. Do you think that you could put together like a, a one-page cheat sheet on community building? Like What are the, you know, yeah, steps or the what or the gotchas or, you know, so that would be a really cool handout.

It'll say a paper that says just give it a try.

Yeah, right. Um, something that, you know, that would be like a nice handout or takeaway that way folks can get show extras at TSI. Absolutely, that'd be great. Also, I'm going to invite you to come in and, you know, be a member of that.

Awesome, thank you. I would love that, and I would be even willing to, uh you know, do a special code for Evolve Virtual. Um, that is going to be perfect, uh, a recording of everything that was great. Um, you heard it here, folks.

So you get a, you get a discount code on Evolve Virtual and you get a handout on building communities.

That's your career BFF here.

So in closing, I wanted to give you the stage— not that I've taken it away from you or anything, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to give us something to introspect on. In other words, give us a question that we can ask ourselves and chew on and ruminate on over the weekend. You know, something that causes us to have a deep thought about any of the things that you talked about today or are passionate about.

Yeah. The two things that immediately came up is if you have a story to tell or framework to share, um, you know, or an idea that is relevant in this space, or want to share how you, you know, are the best sourcer or, you know, closer with what you do, right? Don't be afraid to, you know, put your hat in the ring to grab the mic. Um, you know, the other thing is encouraging other events to really look at ICs and middle folks coming up in the industry to pass them the mic and give them that first shot. And if you're feeling that nudge, definitely act on it. So this weekend, take some time to look at what's coming because we're still at the very beginning of conference season.

Are you saying, ask yourself, who's the individual contributor in your sphere that should get the mic?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, or am I, you know, someone who's—

Or am I the— Right. Raise your hand if you want.

Yeah. And don't wait for someone to tap you on the shoulder.

That's a great question. By the way, I will echo, if you want to raise your hand and be a first-time on stage, and you're afraid of going to a physical event to do that, you're more than welcome to come to the show and be a guest here, or perhaps on your virtual conference. So that's a really good one. Ask yourself, are you the person that should get the mic, or do you have someone in your network that should get the mic that maybe they haven't had?

You know, that has an interesting hack or a way they approach things, like whatever, right?

Yeah, you know, but they haven't been given the mic, so who should get the mic? I like that.

Yeah, so think of, of that, um, you know, and noodle on that because, you know, how are you also prioritizing your own professional development and relevancy? Um, going back to your question earlier about HR and talent leaders, their struggle is, I can't keep up, I'm gonna be a dinosaur because I'm not up to date on all the things. Um, so I think there's a big fear around that. And so, you know, getting in community however you can, balancing between in-person and virtual, and then find that radical honesty and, you know, sit with yourself around, you know, what do I have to say, and, uh, who in my community is someone that is doing bullshit or good stuff that, you know, really deserves some amplification and celebration around what they're building or trying.

Okay. All right. That's a lot to ask. Who deserves amplification?

But make sure you rest this week.

Yeah. I mean, I wanted to say there was an article. It's not an article. It's actually a research paper by the NBER. The, uh, the National Bureau of Economic Research. And actually, I'm gonna put it up here for— I believe I can put it in the captions here.

Let's see, does this tie into what you just said?

Um, it ties into being a dinosaur. Um, and so I want to say this, this is a research paper, uh, they did a study of 6,000 senior executives, CEOs, and CFOs across the US, UK, Germany, and Australia. And they asked about AI and obsolescence and everything. And I just want to put people at ease. Things aren't happening as fast as you think they are. There's a lot of hype out there. This research report is a serious research report by a research organization. And what they found was that nearly 90% of these 6,000 senior leaders, CEOs, reported zero impact on productivity or employment over the past 3 years from AI. In reality, it is not all the hype of these people trying to sell you AI tools. They're trying to sell you something. It's not happening. You're not becoming a dinosaur overnight, no matter what people are trying to sell you. You're just not happening.

Or you can buy into all the fear from the Anthropic research. If Sally and I have been around as long as we have in recruiting, like, just know that we'll still be standing in another 10 years.

I mean, things change, but they're not— you know what they say is they haven't changed that fast.

And this is one of the cool things about, you know, neurospicy people. It's like, you see, you know, we hire all the recruiters, then we lay off all the recruiters, and it's Yeah, insanity doing the same thing over and over again, expecting—

Well, Anna, this was fabulous, uh, as I expected it to be, and even better.

I forgot we were live. I was having—

We are, we're totally live. So we're gonna, we're gonna shut that down and give people a chance to go about their week and have a great weekend and think about who should get the microphone. Yeah, get some rest and come back to tsiuniversity.com for the handout and the discount code.

Awesome. Well, super fun evolving with all of you. Until next