Interview with Michael Kascsak Head of SWE Talent Sourcing, Google North America on Shally's Alley

Okay, we are live. It is 1 PM on Friday and you are on Shelly's Alley. Welcome everybody. Hope you haven't had too weird of a week. On my end here, it definitely got a little weird because we had some heat, and then overnight it has gone to the point where my heater came on, and this morning I am wearing a jacket, and I'm in Atlanta. It's not even the winter yet. It's probably like 50 degrees out or something like that. So strange things are happening. Anyway, really excited to bring you into our meeting today. I have a very special guest. Michael, Michael Kassak. Am I saying your last name correctly? Kassak, or—

Yeah, that's, uh, you got as close as you can get. It's, uh, Kassak. I respond to so many things. You could spell my last name backwards and forwards. That's been my, uh, kind of my tagline for a while.

Good, good, good, good. All right, so I'm not, I'm not terribly embarrassed. You know, somebody with a name like Shelly, you would think I, I would kind of get it right, you know? Um, especially my last name being Steckroll. Nobody ever gets that one right. So Kasek is right. Is that correct?

Yes.

Aha. Yes. Okay. Well, very excited to introduce you guys to Michael. He is the head of software engineer— software engineering, sorry, sourcing for North America at Google. I worked at Google when— actually, I was there when they went IPO, and I used to recruit and source Software Engineers, or SWEs, back then. It was actually the first sourcing team that I built from the ground up. And you might still find some of my— if you've got some Googlers out there, you might still find some of my old videos that I did in MoMA. Of course, these were 2003, 2004, so I don't know if they purged that data. It's pretty old. But Mike has a very illustrious background. Some of you might recognize his first gig in recruiting. He is an Aerotekie. That's right. The very famous Aerotek that was well known for producing some really high octane, you know, recruiters back in the day. Mike, when was that you were at Aerotek? Was that like in the '90s or something?

Yeah. I mean, I'm going to date myself, but yeah, it was late '90s. So yes, definitely Aerotek alumni proud.

Hey, don't worry about dating yourself. I was in— I was sourcing before you were even at Aerotek. So yeah, we're all, we're all long in the tooth here, but from Aerotech, you went to Bank of America and then Capital One and then CBRE. So you were all over the, the fintech technology financial services space. Of course, CBRE is retail. And then you kind of made the jump from financial services, which makes sense, to financial technology at PayPal. And now you made another jump from financial technology to just basically technology. Of course, Google has all kinds of stuff, including Google Pay and financial technology, but you work with all software engineering. So it's not just financial technology, it's the whole thing, right?

Correct. Correct. Yeah, I've kind of followed the digital journey, if you will. I guess it started way back. Capital One was really when I, you know, eyes wide open as far as things shifting to technology. And, you know, Capital One wanted to be known for more of a technology company than a bank. And so that's really when I started to cut my teeth into technology and realized that, you know, that's the way things were heading.

And I have to say, they definitely are a technology company. I mean, I was at Fiserv for a while, for over 5 years, and Fiserv considers Capital One to be a direct competitor. There are, you know, technologies where they have head-to-head competition. So absolutely. I would agree with that 100%. So tell me a little bit about what's it like to lead sourcing at Google today? Because when I was there, basically, I had just— I created the very first sourcing team that was dedicated to diversity, and it was one of the first sourcing teams to begin with. And, you know, of course, that's basically 20 years later. So what's it like now, with whatever you can share that's not gonna, just what's it like to be here in sourcing?

Yeah, I mean, we're definitely in the belly of the beast. I think it's obvious that software engineering right now is white hot, and so it's a very competitive landscape, and luckily we've got some of the best sourcers and recruiters in the game, but it's a, It's very fluid as far as, you know, who you're competing against and what talent wants to come over and kick the tires at this moment in time. So it's just a constant— it can be exhausting. It really can. And you have to remind yourself that, you know, day in and day out that, you know, we're in an industry that, you know, is so fast moving and the pace that, you know, you have to check yourself and make sure that we're not, that we're keeping a steady pace and we're not asking too much of ourselves and our team. So, you know, the team is phenomenal. I'm enjoying it, having a lot of fun. You know, Google has a really great DNA. I, funny enough, I started in the middle of the pandemic, so I have yet to meet pretty much anybody on my team, yet to take a step into an office. But the connection I have with my team just over video conference has been amazing. And so I have the great fortune of working with some really amazing, smart people.

So you haven't actually met some of them in person, or probably very few of them in person, huh?

Almost all of them I have not met. Yeah, it is interesting.

Without telling any secrets, how big is the team? We talking about 100 people, 200 people?

Yeah, I know it's definitely up there. Yeah, no, it's a bigger team. You know, we have a very deliberate focus on hiring the best software engineering talent in the world. And so that takes resources, that takes tools, technology, the whole thing. You have to pull on every lever at this moment in time.

Yeah, so cool. When I was there, actually, I pretty much got a blank check. You know, the instructions to work on the diversity came directly from Larry, and they basically said, "Whatever you need," which means I went out and I got, you know, signed deals with all the job boards and just did whatever I could. So, it was probably, for me, it was a great experience in being prudent, with money, even though I didn't have any real constraints. Like, they didn't say you have a budget. Like, when I went to Microsoft, I had a budget of, you know, fixed budget of $1 million. But not the case at Google. However, it wasn't like I could just go out there and just spend, spend, spend. At some point, I was gonna have to produce results, right? And of course, if you buy everything, then they expect that you're gonna put it all to use. So, I was pretty judicious. But very interestingly, when I I got there, my friend Eric Jaquith and I were the first ones to actually implement Salesforce as a recruiting CRM because they didn't have a CRM. It was just their homegrown ATS. So, you know, they were totally open to making technology, investing in technology, etc. I'm assuming there's still, you know, there's still whatever it takes kind of attitude as far as, you know, investing in the appropriate technology. So it must be nice to be able to do that.

Yeah, you know, a lot of it too is, um, it is showing that return on investment. And so yes, we pilot a lot of things. Um, we are not afraid to, uh, to charge at something, and if you fail, fail fast and learn from it. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I, like I said, I can't really go out. Yeah, you can't go out and just, you know, get everything and help buy it all, right? Um, yeah, it's just, uh, you know, that's, that's a lot of wasted bandwidth.

There.

So it's really about being very surgical and getting that shortlist of things that you think will produce the best ROI and then showing the analytics and then making sure that you're doing it in a very transparent environment.

So any words of wisdom for those of us out there that, you know, that have limited budget and are right now in the planning stages for our budget for next year? Asking for a friend, you know, not like I actually have— I am actually right in the middle of planning my budget for next year. So any words of wisdom for myself and all of our other listeners out there on what do you look at when you're evaluating a tool, a solution, a service? I'm not specifically putting this on you, on TechBit, but what are you looking at that helps you determine, does this make it on my list of things I want to ask for? You haven't bought it yet, but you want to put it on your list of here's, you know, here's the list of things I want to get next year. What goes on that list, or how do you decide what goes on that list?

Yeah, what a great question. You know, I think it's the same philosophy that I've always had regardless of my budget, which is you start with identifying the need that you have as an organization. There's amazing HR technology out there. We are seeing some really great disruptors and some things that are working extremely well. That doesn't necessarily mean that you need that. It doesn't mean that it translates into solving your problem. And so the first thing that you have to do is be real with what your gaps are as an organization, identify those, prioritize them, and then go out and find the solution. I think times we get caught up in, you know, shiny toys and, wow, this looks cool, like we could add this to our repertoire. And, you know, the more that you— the more that becomes a crowded space the more diluted you, you are in your efforts. And so, you know, making sure that you're charging after the right, the right solution is a number one. And then, you know, you could start with that. You know, to me, it's, it's, it's about really truly understanding the technology and what it does and being able to kick the tires in a sandbox environment. And so I'm a big proponent of really getting as intimate as I can with, um, whether it be the vendor or the tool, um, and really getting the end user involved. There's, um, you know, one of my biggest pet peeves is when you do make a decision, um, to whatever the tool is, if you don't have the end user there to helping you make that decision, then, um, I think that's a big mess. And so, you know, whether that's—

sorry, I didn't interrupt you. By the end user, you mean the sourcers, the sourcing team?

Exactly.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, I mean, many times we operate within, you know, we have the best interests in mind when we look at certain technology and tools, but really it's, you know, what is going to enable my team to do the best work they can? And so the best way to do that is get them involved and listen to them.

Sorry, when you're evaluating these solutions or this technology, is cost immediately a factor, or are you looking at the solution that you need first? So, what, you know, what is the problem we're trying to solve? Check. What kind of solution do we need? Check. Then, what's out there? Test it out. And you're not really looking at price yet, or do you, you know, is price one of the first few things that you look at?

You know, it really— I would say it isn't, because if you go into problem solving and looking at what your issue is, if you just kind of keep cost to the side, then you're going to get a real, um, a realistic view as to what the problem is. And so if you've got a, you know, $10 million problem, then you've got a $10 million problem. You can't go solve that with, uh, you know, with something that does not meet that value. And so, you know, you really have to be realistic in, in what you're solving. And so I'm not saying that, you know, everybody should just go out and, you know, write that blank check, but, um, you really have to be real with, with what you have and what you're solving for. And so, um, you know, there's also— there's opportunity to look inside your own organization, um, to see if there is some a group or, you know, whether it's a homegrown solution, you know, there are many options that you have before you start to, to go outside. And so I think, you know, it's about covering all of that ground.

Yes, you determine your need and then, you know, go price some things out and also price out the cost of building it internally. And I would add to that, I don't know if you do this or not, but I would add to that, add that, add the price of not using it. Right? The price of the risk of not using the technology. So, if I don't use it, what's the cost?

Yeah.

So, I can kind of balance that out. That's something that I look at. And then I can, you know, put— when I've got the— I've identified the need. So, for example, I need to have— right now I'm looking at contact enrichment and append, right? So, there's a lot of providers, but it all comes down to maybe there's like 3 or 4 where the original data comes from. That are unique. There's probably maybe 9 providers that you can look at, but 3 or 4 of them are really good in the United States. The rest of them are more global. Then, it comes down to, okay, let's talk about price and let's talk about what does it meet the needs. But I don't go out there and say, what's the cheapest one? Let me go get a bid from them, right? Like, that's not how I do it. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more.

When you're— so you're looking at technology, you're looking at solutions. What about— what else are you planning out? So what improvements do you think that you're going to be doing or planning for coming into the next year here?

Yeah, I think, you know, from an improvement perspective, something that, you know, me personally, and I know, you know, my entire organization has been just so focused on is equality. You know, we have to scale. We do. We have a lot of hires to make for Google, but if we do that without making sure that we have the right guardrails in place as far as equity and representation, then it's a huge mess. And so we have been so focused on creating an environment, an interview process, and an attraction model that is an equal playing field. And we're going to continue down that road, and I don't think we're ever going to stop, nor should we. You know, that's something— there's a lot of ground that needs to be made up in this space. And I think we could all agree that, you know, the more that you put it at the top of your agenda and talk about it and acknowledge where your gaps are and then put a plan in place, that I think that without that plan and without prioritizing it, you know, we aren't going to close that gap. So I'm proud to work for an organization that puts that at the forefront. And so, yeah, I mean, I see that as our top priority.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you can improve everything. Everything can be improved and should be improved, but it's a matter of choosing what you work on next. And, you know, you might have a plan for here's what we're going to improve. I'm rolling out some technology at my company right now for my team that I built. And, you know, I'm learning a lot about what's— what do they call minimally viable product? You know, you can sit there and over-engineer the heck out of it and then wait 6 months to launch it or whatever. Or you can just kind of launch something that's going to cause some headaches but it'll improve other areas so you'll be more efficient. You still have some headaches but you can launch it now and then improve it. So there's always the question of, all right, we know we have to improve 100 different things. What do we focus on? So, you know. It's good to hear kind of where your mind is on that. Let me turn the table a little bit here and ask kind of from the other side of the table, should sourcing have an SLA with recruiting? And if yes, then what should it be?

Yeah, that's a great question. I am a believer that everyone should have an SLA. You know, we are all in the business of, you know, it really doesn't matter what chair you're in, you have a— most of us have a customer, most of us have a client. Having an SLA, having an OKR that, that you're accountable for is table stakes. And so for me, you know, regardless of whatever that SLA is. It's a partnership, and it's kind of— it's coming together and saying, hey, I'm ultimately responsible for delivering this within this amount of time, and then, you know, you're responsible for that side. And so if, you know, SLAs provide transparency, they provide accountability, self-motivation, you know, there's all of these things that SLAs provide that I think are very positive. And so when I hear SLAs and I look at metrics and data, to me, that's telling the story. It's showing, you know, the effort. It's providing that transparency into what we're doing for you as the client or the customer. And so, you know, from a sourcing to recruiting perspective, you know, it's very subjective as far as the scenario. It depends upon the geography you're working in, it depends upon the domain you're working in. I mean, there's so many different nuances to SLAs. So it's very important to get in the weeds there and to develop something that is realistic, attainable, but also is a bit of a stretch too. I mean, you want to create that tension there. That's how we get the best out of ourselves and our teammates. And so, by no means do I look at SLAs and say, hey, black and white, have to hit this, hit, miss, there's always a story there, but having the SLA enables you to get the data to tell that story.

Now, you equated SLA with OKR, which is Objectives and Key Results. I think those are kind of part and parcel, but they're not one in the same. So if you were to break it up into the SLA is what the definition of what the service is going to be, and the OKR is what the metrics are. Which one do you start with first? Do you start with the metrics and build the SLA? Do you start with the SLA and build the metrics, OKRs, after?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think you have to start with the metrics to get there. You don't want to put an SLA together and it be, you know, something that is just, hey, the client thinks that we could do it this way and it's and they don't really understand the details.

So here's what we want the escalation to be, and I hope we can get there. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, you got, you know, having facts, having data is, can be so powerful. You know, when you go back and look at trends and you go look at, you know, stress testing certain things and gamifying data, it can tell, it can tell you if you're in the right ballpark or not. And that's when you, that's when the fun starts. You know, you could start to tweak and look at, hey, if we did this, then follow the data and see, see what improvements are being made or if you're, you know, going backwards. And so, yeah, I mean, to me, it does start with the metrics so that you have something that is realistic, something that's attainable, and something that, you know, both sides can shake hands and agree, hey, this is fair.

Yeah, that's a good point. I get asked this a lot because people come to me and ask about metrics. What metrics do I put in place for sourcing? How do I compare sourcing and recruiting? Metrics has always been something that I get asked as a consultant. But very frequently when it's asked, they either have metrics in place and there's too many of them. They're measuring a lot of things that aren't necessary, or they don't have any and they want to put some in place. But they don't remember or they don't think about— In order to put any metrics in place, the first thing you have to do is start measuring. Like, you know, there's measurements and then there's metrics that people just seem to forget the difference between them, right? A measurement is that particular point. A metric is the difference between two points. So, like speed, driving speed is a measurement. How fast are you going? 55 miles an hour. But the metric is how long does it take to get there? The metric isn't 55 miles an hour. That's a measure, right? Exactly. So people say, oh, what's the metric? How many submittals? Well, first of all, how long does it take, right? Then you can say, okay, our metric is 55 miles an hour is the measure, but our metric is it should take an hour to get from here to there, right? So it should take us 7 days to submit 10 candidates. But if you start with, we're going to submit 10 candidates in 7 days and you have no idea how long it takes, then, you know, so what you're saying is, I'm sort of translating it a little bit, start measuring how long it takes, then create the metrics on the measurements, right? That's, that's the difference.

Yeah, absolutely.

Folks just forget about that. Absolutely.

You know, the other side of that too is I've seen a lot of companies that have tried to, you know, implement things. And the data needs to be of integrity. It needs— there needs to be one single source of truth and keep things clean and simple. You know, simplifying data is, I think, a lost art. And I think, you know, we try to create these really complex formulas and all the— and sometimes you just have to get down to the basics of what it— how long it takes to go from point A to point B and, um, and, and start there.

Simplify it and measure maybe less, right? So start with— one of the things I say is start with like 5 measurements that, you know, don't start with 50. Yeah, take too long to get there. Speaking of, the whole point of this is because you want to know how you're doing. So you're measuring to see where you are, then where you want to go is your SLA. It's your promise, your objectives, your key results are part of that. But ultimately the determination of how you're doing is the outcome of all this. What are the results that you have to have in order to make having a sourcing team worthwhile?

Yeah, I mean, you have to have, um, I mean, this sounds like an elementary answer, but I mean, you have to have a constant pipeline that is, that is diverse and, and that covers the, the every attribute that the company is looking for in, in a candidate. You want to create this, uh, this mechanism where the pipelines are, are, are fluid and that you're not, um, you know, you're not trying to force things in, um, to fill a position and then, you know, you kind of faucet on, faucet off, I guess is how I would put it. You're, you're, you're wanting to create a constant flow. Yeah. And so, you know, that is— that, that takes, you know, consistency. It takes discipline and making sure that, you know, you don't knee-jerk and you don't look at, you know, one data point and start running towards that while you're missing all of the other important things that you need to be doing. And so to me, it's creating that constant, that pipeline that is just a very even flow, and you're in the right wheelhouse.

So consistency, essentially, but it doesn't have to be defined as the same, same, same. Just maybe consistency in the form of like predictability and being able to keep up, right? Not just have this wavering. And that goes back to the SLA. I mean, if you're all over the place, your SLA is going to show it, right?

Yeah.

So you're—

Yeah, I mean, you're waving—

Go ahead.

Yeah, if you're waiting for a rec to open up before you, you know, start looking for, uh, talent, then, you know, you're already many steps behind. And so, um, it's that strategic planning with your business, um, understanding the business, uh, understanding what is, uh, 2, 3, 4 miles ahead, and, um, and starting that now. And so, um, again, sounds elementary, but it's, uh, it's pretty much, uh needed.

That's a very good point. It's a very good point. You know, given, given that your team is, um, you know, it's, it's bored and doing so slowly because there's really not much going on— I'm just kidding— given the fact that you guys are running at top speed, clearly, with everything that's going on and, and, and the, and the needed growth, how do you make time, or, or how do you keep your team's skills sharp, make time for them to continue to improve and hone. Because once you get to the point where you've got your SLA, you're doing things consistently, you've got that consistency, that consistency is going to decline because as things change and you don't evolve, you're just going to be doing the same and getting fewer results unless you are continuously improving. So how do you do that? How do you build a continuous improvement into that? How do you make time for that?

Yeah. It's, um, it's hard. It's very hard when you have the workload, um, that we have. But, um, I'll go back to, you know, just it's discipline and doing the right thing for your team and making sure that, you know, first things first, you have to be right-sized. You can't ask somebody to do the job of 2 or 3 people. It's just not, um, it's not fair. And, you know, we are all humans and we've gone through a lot these last— this last year or 2. And hopefully that is a reminder that, you know, just give people some space and, and give them the grace to, um, to have some of that time and to not feel like the weight of the world is on their shoulders. Um, you know, we— recruiting, talent acquisition is a very noble profession. I mean, we help people get jobs. I love, I love that. But we also need to keep that into perspective too. And so, um, I don't want to have a, an organization that is not enjoying their their work and having fun with each other. So you give people that extra space to, you know, whether it's go learn some new things by themselves, self-paced, or, you know, you give them some, some options. And if you give— you hire the right people, you have the right people working for you, and you give them that time and space, they know what to do with it. They know how to better themselves. And so yes, you could offer them all sorts of training and and put everything you can in front of them, but then let them choose their path. Let them choose which rides they want to go on. And then you're there to help coach develop based upon them leaning towards their passions.

So let me see what I just heard you say. Let me feed it back to you to see if this is what you said. It's not your job to determine where they learn. It's your job to provide them the environment in which they can learn. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, you know, and there are certain guardrails around the what, you know, but—

But you're not sitting there going, this is your curriculum, go learn this. You're saying, you want to improve, we want you to improve, we're going to make time for you to improve, go figure out what it is you want to improve on. And then I will be here to guide you, but not I'm going to dictate the whatever, you know, the areas that you shall improve on. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of, you know, you play to people's strengths and you look at, you know, this is a big huge puzzle piece that, you know, when you put a team together, that's what it is. And so what is somebody else's, you know, opportunity is somebody else's strength. And so if you overlap that and you bring people together as a team and you let them focus on their passions, it works out really well. It's not perfect, it's never going to be perfect, but, um, you know, looking at the, you know, the, the— I call it kind of the 80/20 or the 90/10, where, um, you know, if you're constantly focused on that 10% of the opportunity that somebody has, then you're kind of missing out on all that greatness that they have in the 90% and doubling down there. And so, you know, I think sometimes we lose sight of that. And, you know, you want people to be motivated, to be happy. And so let them chase their passions and do what they do best and support them.

So kind of, you know, manage by exception. You know, let them find their way. And hopefully, more often than not, they will. But if they don't, then you can apply a course correction. But instead of like— I think sometimes people feel like it's you have to mandate, right? So you're giving them the freedom to experiment and figure out where they need to grow. But you're also giving them the guard— you said guardrails, I'm saying, you know, guidance so that they're not, yeah, I'm gonna go learn something that's just not apply or relevant. And of course, there's probably still time for people to learn things they want to learn that may not be related to work, but then that's not necessarily something that you do, you know, at work, right?

So yeah, and I mean, again, writing or something, you know, sure. And, and, you know, there's obviously people that are in different stages in their career, and I look back and, you know, I'm—

that's a tough thing when you have a big team. Yeah, it's a tough thing.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, everybody the same training because some of them are like, I already know this, and others are going to be like, oh my God, this is way more advanced. And, you know, look, I've been doing this for 25 years, man. I've been in classrooms as small as 12 people where there's 2 or 3 people that are like, what? And there's like 2 or 3 people that are passed out because it's so boring. You just can't ever— yeah, you can't ever hit that. You're not gonna be able to hit everybody at the same time because people come from all different levels of experience.

So You're exactly right. And, you know, that's something that I try to keep top of mind each and every day is you really have to cater your coaching and development to the person, and you have to be careful with blanket statements or just kind of painting a broad brush around certain trainings or, you know, what you perceive as the gaps within your organization, because you have to take the time to understand the individual understand the need and really, yeah, make, you know, make their, their career progression their own. It's not somebody else.

That's why we have that tool that I was telling you about offline, the recruiter assessment, which is an objective measure of where their skills are relative to the skills that are required for the job. And you still interpret that report. It's not like, here's the report, here's the prescription. You interpret that report because in that person's role, they may or may not need those particular skills, but at least gives you an objective starting point. Right? So, that's a tool that we put in place. And I think it helps with— because, you know, the last thing I want to do is send somebody to training and then have them basically not need it, which— so, I paid for it and I paid twice because I paid for their time, right? And they didn't benefit. So, it's absolutely pointless, you know? Or likewise, I don't want to send someone to training and have them basically not be able to absorb the training because there's a missing piece behind it, you know, something they should have known that they didn't go into it. Like sending you to— not you, but sending, you know, someone to advanced Chinese if they never even took intro to Chinese.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's not gonna, you know, they're not gonna catch— you can't just catch up. You can't like do a crash course on it, you know, in 5 minutes. So, um, and it's— you can waste your money that way too as, as training budget. Yeah. Well, we're getting pretty close to running out of time, so I want to say First of all, I wanna say thank you for coming to this and making it happen. I know it's not easy given your schedule and everything you've got going on and also getting clearance to appear. So know this, the audience really appreciates these insights. We get great feedback.

Oh yeah, no, this is a great, look, this is a wonderful break in my day. I wanna be able to get back to, I've been very fortunate to be in the TA industry as long as you and people don't, most people say, kind of find their way into recruiting. Nobody says, I want to be— yeah, stumble, fall backwards. Um, but I've been very fortunate. I found my passion. Um, I want to be able to give back. You know, I've, um, I've worked for some great companies, I've worked for some amazing leaders, um, and, and have had the opportunity to work with some just phenomenal people. And so, um, you know, being able to share that and give back is, uh, is, is fun.

Wow. Yeah, well, thank you so much. And for those of you that are watching this out there and it's starting to get a little bit cold, I have a gift for you. You see this gorgeous jacket that I'm wearing here? This can be yours. My company is doing a giveaway. If you go and fill out a form, you can have a jacket and 2 mugs. We're going to do a drawing every month. This is completely free. And, you know, my company said, hey, we can, we can give this away as a gift for your subscribers. So I will post a link to this. If you go to srcn.co/jacket, so SRCN as in sourcing, Sierra, Ray, Charlie, Nancy, dot co forward slash jacket, put in your name and email and you'll be registered to win a jacket and 2 coffee mugs. Thank you, Michael, so much for coming to this. Really appreciate it. Hope to have you back. Any last words for our audience?

Yeah, no, I, you know what, there's one thing that is, that's top of mind for me.

Yeah.

I want to throw this out there on the table for everybody. You know, our industry is in a very interesting place right now. I would say that we're somewhat vulnerable. The recruiting industry is such in demand that the, the bar that we hold needs to be steady and where it's always been, whether that's working and creating credibility with your client or your candidates. You know, this, this adage of, oh yeah, anybody could be a recruiter, anybody could be a sourcer, it's, it's not true. And so I think it's up to, it's up to us to keep that bar where it is and to make sure that every day we're coming in and we're earning the credibility that this that this industry deserves. And so, you know, I would just implore everybody to keep that in mind. Yes, it's a wonderful time to be in recruiting, but we also have a responsibility for this trade in making sure that we're bringing that quality to the table that corporations need and our clients and partners need. So, you know, that's something that I definitely wanted to make sure and throw out there. Out there for everybody.

Very good point. Yeah, I'm going to rephrase that for the notes and send it to you for you to approve to post. But I think I get what you're saying. It's, it's important to keep the quality because, you know, for a long time CFOs did— CFOs and CEOs did have the attitude that anyone can do it. It's so easy, anyone can do it. I don't know if that's— you're saying that's still maybe the case in some places, but I agree. I'm going to rephrase that and post it. Well, thank you so much. Okay, everybody, have a great weekend. Yeah, see you next week. Bye-bye.