James Sammarco! Live on Shally's Alley

All right, hey everybody, how's it going? You are live on Shelly's Alley. Today is August 23rd. I believe this might actually be the last episode of August, but, uh, and maybe not. Nope, we got one more, we got one more. So here we are, August 23rd, and, um, it's you see I'm wearing this t-shirt. I found it tonight in my— last night in my closet. And I have all these shirts of like defunct companies. I don't think SASE is defunct. They just, they got renamed. I think they're called Leidos or whatever. So I have like shirts of companies that don't exist anymore. And I figured, you know, I need to start wearing these because they're just sitting there. And you know my policy, if it's free, it's me, right? So I like these comfy shirts. That, that I can wear. So anyway, enough about free stuff. Let's talk about recruiting. In fact, let's talk about executive recruiting. And with me today, I have James Sammarco. James comes from the executive search industry where he spent a great deal of time and actually just told me that he was here in Atlanta yesterday and I totally missed him. I didn't get the message in time that he was going to be around, so I missed out meeting you face to face. Sorry, man.

Hey, no worries. Um, glad to be here, you know. Thank you for having me.

And of course, yeah, love to.

It's a great time right now to be on, and Atlanta is great, you know. Um, I've been following you for, for years, you know. It's so funny, our story. We've been connected since 2008 and really spoke up until recently.

So yeah, yeah, I remember, um, we were, you know, just kind of chatting back and forth and you've been listening to the show for a while and you said, hey, I'd love to hop on an episode. And I'm like, all right, let's do it. So here we are. Um, you know, James has been in the, um, executive search business for, gosh, uh, what, like 16, 17, 18 years, something like that.

Around there, right around there. Losing count, but yeah, that's right.

Lost already.

Yes.

Um, so one of the topics that you wanted to talk about, and I think it's a really appropriate topic, is why do recruiters sometimes get bad press? Um, you know, kind of talk us through what's, what's happening there. Why does it happen and what do you, what do you do about it?

You know, for being in the industry as long as I have, you, you start to realize some of the, the mistakes that you made over the years and, and how to fix those. And I think there's just so many agencies out there these days that that have just been out there for years that have that name reputation, right? And I think that in the agency world, there's high turnover rate, right? And I think that that creates problems, you know, with clients, with candidates. Some people are just not in it for the long haul. So I think that it's, it's just important to play the long game. And always build relationships with folks, whether you could use them or not at the moment. You know, too many people are focused, hey, can we fill this job at the moment, and not building that relationship for the long term. Okay. So I think that that's—

Well, part of that bad press comes from like the transactional, if you treat candidates as transactions and you don't really pay attention or focus on the relationship building, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, and I think it's just important that, you know, everybody needs help. Like, look at the market that we're in right now. There's a lot of people unemployed. There's a lot of people on LinkedIn with their green banner up. You know, us being in this space, you know, I make sure that I'm always going out of my way to reach out to folks when I don't have a job to just see if I could connect them with somebody I know on LinkedIn, like you actually. You know, that's how we started talking. I saw you put your green banner up. I was like, let me just reach out to Shelly, see if he could, you know, use some help. Maybe I could intro him to somebody. So that's how we kind of reconnected.

Yeah, I appreciate that for sure. Yeah, so can you give me an example, like share with us some examples of like the bad press that recruiters get? Just so folks, not everybody here necessarily has worked with executive search or has been in executive search. I've been in it you know, several different incarnations in my life. But what are some of the things that you hear about the negative connotations of being a recruiter, like besides the old, you know, headhunter or whatever?

Yeah, I think it's just not having the attention to detail, you know, from the, from the client side. I think that recruiters get, you know, bad rap just from not following up correctly with the candidates. Not kind of giving the insight on the company as to where they are and what they're looking for. I feel that the detail piece, if it has gone away, you know, people are less detail-oriented and just want to focus on getting somebody in to fill the job. Right. And, and that, that's just not how it really works anymore. You know, it's—

so that's kind of the old way or the That's in the past is what you're saying.

In my eyes it is, you know, people disagree, but I think that it's all about just making both sides happy, you know, candidates, clients, just knowing what each of them want and really focusing and honing in on that.

Give me other examples. What are the things that people, you know, what other bad press do we get?

I think they're just, You know, as far as a candidate relationship, right, not taking it from beginning to end as far as, you know, getting in person with the candidate, you know, sitting down with them, really getting to know them as opposed to just focusing on the job that you have at the moment, right? Everybody's focused on that job that they have, but, you know, it's nice to hear like what people's desires are, what they're focused on achieving and their goals and and people just get right down to it. Hey, we got this job. It's a manager. This is the salary. How do you feel? And that's before getting to know the person, right? So how do you, if you really want to build that longstanding relationship, I think you have to dig a lot deeper than just those basic beginning questions.

You're saying that some of it has to do with, like, it's, 'Oh, you're just in it for the money. You just, you make money off of placing me and that's all you care about' kind of stuff. But what you're saying is that, you know, people that are in the business, they actually enjoy, like I personally, this is just speaking for myself, one of my big pleasures is when somebody gets hired and they, you know, they have a new opportunity that whether it's making more money or whether it's career growth or whatever, I feel like I've done something to improve their lives. Not saying that their lives were terrible before they met me, but you know, I feel like, so the money is definitely motivating when you're in executive search. It motivates you to do, you know, to do your job faster and do it better. But I also really get a kick out of that. I don't know, that elation that you feel when the candidate's like, oh, thank you, this is such a great opportunity. Do you think that's true for a lot of people, or do you think like it's the rumors are true? Some headhunters are all like, yeah, whatever, as long as I get paid, I don't care.

You know, some people that just have that passion about the business feel that way. You know, for me, you know, for one, when you place someone that you know is a great fit, you know, long-term, and you just see how happy they are, you know, just having that satisfaction is really important to me. I mean, I feel like that's the reason that I'm in the business. Yeah, the money is great, but there's other ways to make money, right?

You can choose.

Yeah, there's other ways to make money, and money is not everything. You know, when you get older, you start to realize that money is just an attachment. You don't really, you know, if you have to kill yourself to get it, then, you know, maybe that's not the way to go. You know, I think that you could be equally happy and not have, you know, the money. But I really get enjoyment of just helping people. At all levels, you know, being able to have that, you know, cultural transformation piece and, and kind of change the organization as, you know, an executive would want you to. And, you know, they bring you in to do that. I just like that, that challenge, you know. I think that's important.

Let's dig into that a little bit because I think that's— so that kind of segues into the role of, of executive search. Um, some folks, you know, I think one of the complaints that people have, or one of the the bad raps that executive search and just generally search in general, generally search in general gets is that it's transactional. But I think like if you're gonna do a good job and represent your client, part of the role at the higher levels when, for example, you know, I've placed CTOs, CIOs, CFOs, you know, C-suite executives. One of the jobs is to find the person that's going to like gel, not just gel, it's not about getting along, but like actually contribute in more ways with the team. So it's a bit of, it's matchmaking, right? Sourcing isn't as big a deal. It's easier to find, first of all, it's easier to find executives. And at least in my experience, than it is to find some really highly technical people. And also executives tend to respond because there's, you know, they know about the value of networking and they might not be the right person, but, you know, they at least respond and say, I know somebody or this isn't for me. So the hard part is kind of identifying the right person and doing the due diligence upfront to make sure that not only are they gonna be a good match, obviously for what's required, but also complementing the rest of the executive suite. So is it, do you feel like that's a big part of it is almost, I don't wanna call it assessment because I don't want people to think it's like an instrument. They, hey, go fill this formulary out. But the, I don't know, the vetting that we do and the interviewing and the pre-interview and those kinds of things. Tell me a little bit about that, what that role is like and how important that is.

Yeah, I mean, depending on the level of the role, I know you said you placed all levels of C-level. You know, myself, we placed CIOs, CFOs, CTOs, you know, all of the above. You know, they're handled differently. You know, if you have a CEO search, you know, you're really interviewing the full C-suite to see, you know, where everybody's personality fits and kind of honing in on like, where is this CEO gonna be the best, you know, best fit? You know, where do they need to come in strong? But I think it just has to do with, you know, the values beliefs, the culture of the current firm that you're recruiting for, and just kind of understanding, you know, where they need that change, right? Where's the shift needed, right? There's somebody in there.

For example, give me some examples I can think of. Um, you know, obviously if it's a CTO, they need to know their technology, but beyond that, you want to find out whether or not they're, you know, if the team needs someone that's more of a consensus builder, you want to bring somebody that's that, or if the team needs somebody that's more of a, you know, decisive factor, you know, those kinds of things. So what else do you look for in executives? What, what other types of, I don't know, alignment are there out there?

Well, it just goes back to being innovative, adaptive, trying to make that somebody who's on the the latest edge of what's coming up in that space specifically. Like I said to you earlier, you know, we deal in a number of spaces, so it kind of changes based on that. But I just, I think it's focused on where the long-term success of that company, and I think that, you know, it depends on the culture that they're trying to build. So I think it's very important to just kind of make sure that that person's gonna be able to deliver that piece.

Have you noticed, you know, as you talk to, let's just say, VP and above type of candidates, have you noticed any trends in what stands out? Like, what, what do some of the top executives have in common as far as like their soft skills, right? Like, obviously doing their job aside, like, we know how to recruit for people that do their job. I'm talking about like to become an executive, maybe What are some of those things, those other, I don't know, other talents, other skills, other competencies that you've noticed highly executive people have from being the interviewer in that?

Yeah, I mean, the expert planners is one thing. Like they have everything scheduled by the 15 minutes. I think that's one of the main keys, you know, that their calendars are booked to the gills, but I think that, you know, as far as executives go, there's just, you know, it's important that they're passionate, right? They're very, you know, hardworking folks, right? And so whatever they do, they, they're, you know, they have their schedule, right? Getting up early, you know, being able to accomplish stuff before a certain hour so they could hit the day running. And I think it's just, being able to be that, that team mentor, right? That kind of person that's able to kind of corral everyone and, and assist, you know, people when they're, when they're down and out type of personality. I think that's an effective, you know, executive leadership from what I've saw. Yeah.

What you've seen. Okay. Tell me a little bit more about the, the value add of, you know, an outside executive search agency, like for example, some of the things that recruiters that don't work with executives may not even be aware of. I'll just, I'll kick it off with an example. If you're recruiting at that level, you're recruiting, you know, people that are at the C-suite, oftentimes you can't interview them at your company's headquarters. You have to meet them somewhere else. Can you tell us why?

At the other company's headquarters. Of course. I mean, it's, it's a small market. Everyone knows each other. You know, the last thing you want is, you know, every C-suite role we have is pretty confidential for the most part, right?

And imagine the CEO of the other company walks in and people are like, hey, what's he doing here? What's she doing here? And all of a sudden, yeah. So you've got to have that confidentiality.

So it's happening right now.

Yeah. What else? What other things are like really different about executive search than regular search?

I think that it's different in the sense that there's just so many more aspects involved, right? From the leadership to the culture transformation build to, you know, coming, bringing in. So for instance, you know, CTOs, a lot of folks, you know, you need somebody that's willing to take this culture that they're going into to the next level technology-wise and really kind of build out roadmaps and strategies over the next couple of years. So for me, you know, you always want to look for, you know, visionary type of person. You know, a lot of technology folks, you know, sometimes they just like to stick to what they know. You know, in a CTO sense, we need somebody that's looking out the next couple of months and years onto what's new. For instance, whatever data pipelines, data lakes, Snowflake type of stuff, being able to automate the environment more, moving over, transitioning to cloud is obviously older at this point. So if you haven't done that, you're really behind, but just somebody who's really willing to take it to the next level and that has done it before, I think, It's definitely the—

So aside from obviously the extra level of confidentiality, you also have the, you know, of course you've got the regular requirements of skill, but you also have the ability to kind of see, not necessarily see into the future, but they need to be much more plugged into what's coming around the corner than, you know, just a person that's actually hands-on doing the job, an individual contributor. Okay, that's a good one. So sort of seeing around the corner, all that. What else? What other things are you, you know, just really different about executive search?

You know, I think exactly—

Time to fill, how about that? Is it fast?

I mean, time to fill for me is, I mean, my average time to fill between executive roles and, you know, I guess you could say some middle management stuff is about 60 days. So, Um, which is interesting, you know, it really depends on the search itself, how long it's been open, you know, how long, if it's brand new, if, if we have it exclusively or not, if it's out there to a bunch of folks. Um, but the average, uh, in my notes that I have from our recent stuff, you know, for instance, a CFO that we did for fintech, um, down here in Florida, was about 75 days to fill. Um, but we had an info— head of info security, um, for another fintech, like Series B, out of New York, and that took like 140 days to fill, right? So it really varies.

There's more patience, right? Would you say that there's more patience for the right match? There's a lot less pressure on getting somebody in the door quickly?

Yeah, I mean, just working close with the The person who's transitioning out of the role is important, being able to kind of have them speak to the incoming person. You know, a lot of people transition out quickly and that person's, you know, I guess you could say gone. So, right, they were trying to figure out everything that this person did wrong. And I think that that's something that we try to coach whoever the hiring manager is. Hey, you know, let's have this incoming person speak with the outgoing person to try to you know, give them that handhold coming in so they could clean up quicker.

So you actually have to worry about the transition where in regular recruitment, oftentimes it's a vacancy. You bring somebody in and they start the job, but there's no like, you know, handoff. So that's another dimension. Okay.

Yeah. Time to fill is, is important, but time to fill is not important in the sense that You know, I've been a part of—

it's about doing the— yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, so you, you can take your time, but you do still have a— there's still a clock.

I mean, it took— I had one role in the past that took me, uh, over 365 days to fill. So I'm not— I'm used to working under, you know, that pressure to find that right individual, whether it takes, you know, 60 days or, or a year or two. That's That's, you know, part of the job.

Let's switch tracks a little bit and tell me about— try to scare me away. Tell me why I would not want to become an executive recruiter. What are some of the, like, you know, tough things that you've had to— you've overcome, but not everybody may be interested in it. So what, you know, what are the— what's the downside as a recruiter? What's the downside to going into that practice? And by the way, for folks that don't know, this James's company, The Third Group, This is his organization that he started. So not only is this executive search, but it's also entrepreneurship, right? So you can talk about either one, owning your own executive search firm or just being in executive search. Scare me away. Why would I not want to do it?

I mean, I don't know how you handle rejection, Shelly, but, you know, this is constant rejection every day, right? So if you need, you know, you need encouragement every day and you need that, you know, excitement, you know, every day happening, you know, this is not the place because it's just, you know, constant failures, you know, and you get used to failing. But, you know, the more you fail, the more you learn, which I think is important. And that's how I got to this point by just pretty much failing lots of times and just cleaning it up and, and learning and fixing it, you know, and I think that once you're able to do that and understand where you've you fall short and how you could do better, how you could represent yourself better. Yeah, you just get better and better. For me, you know, I've been in this a long time, like you said. So I've had times of dry spells where you're not doing a deal for, you know, 6, 7, 8 months. And that, you know, if somebody's not going to say that to you, then they're lying to you in my eyes, right? I feel that like there's so many people that love to fluff up their numbers that they've done and, you you know, say like I did this, you know, this amount and that amount, but in reality—

So, we're talking about a great deal of resilience here and financial, you know, ups and downs, right? So, it's like if you're looking for a steady paycheck, probably not the right gig for you then.

Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think it's tough, you know, times get tough, you gotta get tougher, you know, you gotta dig deep and figure out, you know, kind of scale back to the beginning, you know, hey, what could I, what could I do to improve this process or, you know, make this, you know, streamline this process to make it easier, you know, but the truth is that it always goes back to the basics, Shelly. And I think that, you know, if you're from, you know, the beginning, like I've been in, you know, cold calling, calling up and down, you know, I don't know if you remember, there used to be lists, used to cold call up and down the numbers, you know, used to call into the the newspaper to get the ad. You know, there was just so many different ways that recruiting's changed. So when you come from that aspect of just, you know, calling till somebody answers, you know, and, and just figuring it out, I think that, you know, you could, you could really, uh, you know, figure it out. But they don't do that anymore, so it's hard to, to teach from that aspect of, of really just, you know, making a bunch of calls. It's, it's, it's really changed to, you know, you know, an email business and then schedule a call. You know, there's nobody picking up the cold calls as much anymore.

So folks don't pick up when you call anymore, huh?

Not necessarily. There's always, you know, think about there's so many—

People call, but they're just not answering when you call. They're calling you back or they're responding, but they're not picking up. I gotcha.

There's so many spam calls out there these days. I don't pick up half the calls that come into me, so.

Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that. For sure. So where, where is this space headed? Where's executive search going to be in the next 5 years? Are we talking about— are there going to be any, you know, from your, from your seat, any, um, major shifts coming, or, or that we're in the midst of?

You know, of course everybody is speaking on the AI stuff and how it involves you know, the recruiting, you know, career, is that going to really take away from recruiters?

Even in executive search, it would seem almost like you're, I mean, you know, you're talking about like the most human touch, the most relationship building of any recruiting. It would probably be the most immune to AI, don't you think?

Yeah, I was going to say that it's definitely going to be more immune to AI. It's only going to help the process. I don't think it's going to, you know, take over the process for the individual, right? Because it's such a a one-on-one facing type of business that, you know, AI, I don't believe is gonna be able to do that piece, but AI is definitely stepping in to streamline and automate for us, you know, getting different, you know, pools of candidates that, you know, you're not able to see. And yeah, I think that's important. You know, it's definitely making the job, not what I was saying before where you're making, you know, hundreds of calls and, you know, your emails are being automated and sequences are out there now. So you could kind of just—

Some of those like tedious time-consuming tasks that were, you know, repetitive and monotonous but necessary, some of that will be alleviated with these tools. But a big part of the, which actually I would say leaves you more time to, you know, have those meaningful conversations and maybe do some more networking and things like that. Speaking of networking, have you felt like, has networking changed in any way for you? I mean, back way when, You know, when I was doing executive search, there were still places to go, right? There were still like meetings and events and things like that. In Atlanta, there still is a, like, the Atlanta Tech Council and things like that where you could, you know, go and rub elbows with the elite, if you will. Has that changed significantly? I mean, are like in-person events and things like that no longer part of the business or is it? Starting to come back now that COVID is, is sort of, you know, ancient history?

I mean, I think it's a huge part of the business. It's still happening. Yeah, it's still active networking events throughout the country. You know, obviously, there's the big ones like Black Hat that just passed, you know, but there's always new ones popping up. I'm a big advocate of just focusing on networking because You got to get out there, right? Whether you want to or you don't want to, just rubbing elbows, like you said, with people that are in your industry or people that you want to be around to get more knowledgeable in the space. It's an education in a sense. Once you do start to meet those folks and they start to open up, everybody's extremely friendly still. I think even more so after COVID because You know, people realized like what they were missing once networking was gone, you know, and it's nice to have it back, definitely.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of the biggest pieces in the business. I think that there's so many different areas now, you know, you got Bitcoin conference in Nashville, you know, you have the security stuff that was just happening, but, you know, there's everything so specifically, for instance, you know, family office networking events, you have hedge fund networking events, you know, stuff that's catered related towards the food and beverage world, you know, total opposite. So it's, you know, you name it, it's out there.

So, um, you know, right now, because, because of the market and the way things are, I've been getting quite a few inquiries or approaches from people that have been considering getting into, uh, you know, hanging their own shingle, creating their own business, starting their own company, getting into executive search. So some advice for folks who are thinking about that. Do you, do you feel like, do you recommend that choosing a specialization for your practice is a good idea? And if so, you know, vertical, horizontal, what, what sort of recommendations you have for an aspiring to-be executive search entrepreneur as far as choosing their line of business, if you will? Like, I know you are specifically in finance and fintech, You know, so you chose kind of, and you do a little bit of other things as well, but that's your main mainstream. Do you recommend that? Or do you recommend just kind of jumping into it and figuring out where you land? What's your take on that?

Yeah, for me, I mean, I've been, my career has been different. So I can't compare it to anybody else. But if I had to go back, I would probably choose a niche that would, you know, make me more focused into one area, right? I always I came from technology, I'm still doing technology, but over the years I've broadened into a few different industries that I wasn't familiar with. And luckily enough, it allowed me to expand into places that I wasn't familiar with. It took me time to learn whether it's like finance and accounting or supply chain and logistics, anything in those areas or areas that we've been focused in. But if I was—

You recommend like a vertical and then sort of land and expand that way? What about getting into like a horizontal, you know, for example, placing, um, you know, only, uh, management level or only executive level but of any industry, or only, you know, support level? Like, is there any value in going specialty that way, or do you recommend vertical?

I think any specialty or niche is, is going to be the best way to go because you have an extreme focus. And then, and then when you're going to sell to a potential you know, new client or business, they're gonna say, oh, this person's focused in this vertical. Like, why wouldn't we try to use this person, right? Somebody that's a generalist just doesn't win. You know, that's what they say. You know, somebody who's a generalist is just, you know, never gonna be the one you wanna use because they're just not a specialist in what you need at the moment, right? And, but that's, it's been different for me as, you know, I have been a generalist. I have exposure to a few different areas over the years, But it does make you realize that having that niche, Salesforce recruiter, especially just for Salesforce developers and admins or Workday folks specific, just for that, those people know their network really extremely well. And they know when people are leaving a job to move them to the next. If you're, I guess you could say somebody who's, not a specialist, you know, you're not as in tune to your network.

That makes sense, right? Because there's a lot more to cover. You can't cover everything, right? So as more and more people are, you know, like I said, I've been getting quite a few more than I usually get. Hey, Shelly, what do you think about this? You know, kind of inquiries from, from friends and colleagues. So you feel like— do you feel like there's going to be a bit of a resurgence of executive search? Because I know there, there was a bit of a dip in overall, um, you know, participation in that industry for a while. But do you feel like it's coming back, or is it just organic growth?

I, I feel like it's, it's not coming back. I feel like it's back, you know. I feel like it's back already.

Okay.

Yeah, I feel like it goes back to just those, those relationships that you've figured out over the years. We're in a time where, where everybody's you know, there's a lot of roles posted, a lot of frustration on people not getting responses, and hiring managers don't want to waste time going through these, you know, 100, 200 people that applied to a post because most of them are just not right, you know. So we're in the time where people don't post jobs anymore. Majority of the stuff that I'm getting, you know, it's—

that's— they're not posted.

They don't post, they don't wanna post it. It's a time waster for them, right? You know, to have somebody go through 200 people. Why go through 200, 300 people if you could come to, you know, somebody like myself that fits, you know, what you're looking for, or, you know, somebody who's a specialist in what you're looking for and, you know, get 10 or 20 folks and just, you know, make the hire in a couple weeks.

Yeah, which it would be a lot of work to just— I know some folks get overwhelmed with applicants, not everybody, but sometimes they do. And then it's like you got to go through all that and follow the, you know, the, the required processes and, and everything.

So, but I think, I think it is, you know, it's, it's back. The— I mean, recruiting's here to stay and grow.

Well, yeah, I know recruiting is, um, but, you know, like I've been getting more and more inquiries, so I'm wondering if there's a I don't know if there's gonna be a boom in executive search coming or something, 'cause I feel like I'm early on that curve.

Yeah, I think there is gonna be a big—

More interest in it.

I think there's gonna be more interest in it. I think it's become a more flexible industry than it used to be. It used to be in office, suit, tie type of thing. That's how it was a while back. Now it's you work from home, you know, you're flexible, you know, it's just easier, you know, it's easier. And I think people are looking for more quality of life positions and they're looking for positions that they could take. Yeah, they could, they wanna dictate what they're making and they wanna dictate where they're working, right?

And their time. And yeah, so not so much like, you know, the hard hours and paycheck, more flexibility. And yeah, that's actually a really good point. That's a really, really good point. So let's kind of pull the thread on that a little bit. What do you enjoy the most out of your entrepreneurship as an executive search? Like, what's the— is it the freedom? Is it the money? Is it the people? Is there something particular that you go, you know, this is why I'm in this business, or this is why I stay in this business? Like, what is that? What is that thing that brings a big smile to your face, you know, about the job?

Flexibility is big for me, you know. I have a family, you know, I have a daughter, son on the way. So for me, I don't want to be tied down to a desk if I don't have to be, you know. So that, that was always a big attraction to me.

Managing your time and choosing where you spend your time.

Yeah, because the time is— time's the one thing you can't get back, right? So if you're able to manage it correctly now, I think that you know, you could really fall into, you know, a process that works for you. Money, yeah, money's there. Like we said earlier, there's a number of industries you can make a lot of money in, you know, but you may not be as flexible. But stuff that sticks out to me as far as like, what makes me come back is like when I get that, you know, for instance, we had a large tech company that needed a, like a level 7 engineer type of person. Which is, if you don't know, pretty high-level engineer that sits in the organization, you know, usually makes, you know, upwards of, you know, $500,000 to $1 million range total comp. You know, when you get jobs like that and you're able to make an impact and fill successfully, that gets me excited.

Organization critically.

Yeah, to be able to, you know, poach somebody from another competitor of that level. Just shows like, wow, you know, I, I still got it, you know. And it's, it's just, you know, once you figure that out, you know, why that person fits well in there, you know, you start to just see that you could do this again and again.

Yeah.

But the big ones, the big fish are exciting to me for sure.

Yeah. Well, I think that would be the same thing if you're, you know, recruiting in general. It's always good to catch that great search and, you know, you do a good job and you place somebody. And one of my Fondest memories is finding someone for a position that was really hard to fill. And the candidate that we ended up bringing in was not on paper, the resume, you would never, they would never have applied for the job. And even if he applied, they would've never considered him because it was a complete mismatch on paper. But in meeting with them, I identified that they had this, in the course of doing their job, they had also developed this other skill, which was they didn't highlight on their resume, but was critical to this role. And so I connected the dots and made the introduction and I told both of them, the hiring manager and the candidate, you know, I told the candidate, hey, this is that you're gonna be, when I send you the job description, you're gonna be like, what's this? And the hiring manager, I'm like, when I send you the resume, you're gonna wonder, but you guys need to meet each other. And they met and They hired him and it was like they were, the hiring manager and the candidate were both like, where'd you find this? You know, it's a good match. So that there's something cool about being able to kind of, you know, make that connection. It just feels good, you know, above and beyond, you know, you're definitely helping the company grow and you're definitely helping that candidate with an opportunity. So to me, that's a big part of it. Certainly, you know, the— in, in no matter what role I'm doing in recruiting, that's always a good outcome for me. It's always something that makes me feel good and appreciated. I think, you know, not to circle all the way back to the beginning, but the reason sometimes recruiting, executive search in particular, but all recruiters get a bad rap is because they feel— people feel like we're not at all interested in their, like, we're not invested in their, in benefiting them or their success. Like, candidates are, you know, they feel like it's like this very transactional thing. I used to, I don't know if this happens anymore, but I used to get the whole, oh, like, you know, used car salesman. I'm like, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with used cars or used car salesmen, but, you know, it's like this, oh, recruiters are like used cars. What does that mean? Well, you know, they just want to turn around the inventory as quickly as possible. And I don't know if that's— I mean, they may be true in, like you said, some places, but for me, if that's what it was, I, that I wouldn't have— I wouldn't stay. I mean, I've been in this business for almost 30 years, and yeah, I like the money and it's good, but there's also been periods when I didn't have any money and still enjoy that connection of somebody getting the right job, the right company getting the right person. Which I think is probably the biggest non-monetary benefit of the job. But I agree with you, the flexibility is definitely cool. So advice for people coming, you know, this started with people wanna become executive search, you know, they wanted to hang their own shingle. Any other advice that you would give them? You know, so it's literally, they're just, they're coming into it, they're brand new, they've been recruiters before, but they've worked for someone. And any advice to give people that are thinking about starting their own thing in executive search?

I mean, I just, you know, you try never to burn any bridges. You know, you're in the industry a long time. You want to, you know, continue to have those relationships from the past. So, you know, always just treating everybody fairly, I think, is important, you know, and just making sure that you can help people where you can. I mean, set aside a lot of money, you know, to go into your own business. You know, that's another thing, you know, you got to, really be— yeah, you got to have some dry powder in the tank to make it happen for sure. You know, if you don't have like an outside investor or something to that effect, but, you know, if you're going to go about it yourself and bootstrap it, then you got to, you know, really be prepared. If you got a family, you got to be prepared to go all in and just manage the expectations, you know, of everyone around you. Because, you know, there's gonna, like you said, there's hard times, but there's great times. So it's a matter of how you, you know, kind of go about it, right? For me, you know, I knew this is something that I was just gonna do at the end of the day because I'm just confident in that fact that I knew I had, you know, great relationships over the years. But going back to what you said, I think that You know, the— and we don't name names, but the big firms, you know, it's very transactional internally, right? Nobody cares about like how, you know, how you made something.

The more impersonal things can become.

Yeah, if you didn't do, if you didn't do two deals in, in a month in a big firm, you know, you're, you're being scoped and looked at like, hey, should we keep this person still? So it has to be transactional from the people internally. And that's why I think the The big firms are a great place to go to learn, learn to kind of get those analytics behind you and those metrics and, you know, where you need to be in order to do something. But, you know, I think it's also great to be able to go to a smaller firm and be able to get, you know, experience from all angles. So that's something I would advise. You know, if you haven't had experience in a larger or smaller firm, I would do that before you jump into your own thing. Just to get a full landscape of what's going on.

Cool. Thanks.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I said I was going to keep it for half an hour. We're definitely going a little bit over, but I wanted to— every guest that comes on the show, as I'm sure you've, you've heard from past episodes, gets asked 2 questions and you can't leave until you answer these questions. The first of those is who should be our next guest?

Man, I have, I have a, I have a good list.

Um, it doesn't mean you can't invite them, but they, they don't have to. Oftentimes people just can't come. But yeah, you got anybody for me?

Yeah, you should check out— his name's John Vorpegl.

V-O-R-P-E-G-L. A-G-L-P-A-G-E-L-J-O-N. Got it, got it. Cool. All right, last question is, what would you want our audience members to think deeply about over the coming days? Not, not an answer. I don't want you to kind of, you know, give them something that they should think about from you, but rather a question to ask themselves. What should— what do you want them to ask themselves over the coming days?

I think, you know, if you're currently in the market for a role, I think what you should be asking yourself is, you know, who am I working with? You know, is this the correct person for me? And if they're not the correct person for you, you know why they're not, and then try to connect with some folks that may be like-minded individuals that are gonna to, you know, help you where you want to go. You know, if somebody's not going to be focused on helping you and assisting you where you want to be, then you need to move to the next person and find somebody else, is my advice.

Wow, okay, that's a big one. So is this somebody you really want to work with?

Ask yourself that. Okay, it's important, it's important.

Yeah, yeah, thanks a lot for that. Appreciate your time. Next time you come down to Atlanta, give me more than a day's notice.

Sorry about that, man. We'll hit the, the varsity, uh, you know, we'll, uh, We'll go wherever you want to go, but I'll get you out for, for something for sure.

Fantastic. Well, that's our, that's our show for this week. Thanks, everybody. If you'd like to tune in next Friday, we have Megan Whittington. She's a sourcer extraordinaire. You're going to share some tools and tips on sourcing in today's market. So look forward to that. And until then, be kind to yourselves. Bye, everybody.