Jim Peterson Live on Shally's Alley

It is Friday, January 20th, around, uh, 1 PM-ish. You know me, traditionally known for being exactly on time. So, um, here we are. My special guest today is Jim Peterson. I would not say Jim Peterson is a celebrity of any kind, so you probably haven't heard about him, but he and I go way back. And, um, actually, I think we, we've, we met face to face at Temple University, right?

We did. Yeah, I was a student of yours at your sourcing class at the Fox Business School.

The Fox Business School in the master class. That's when we met. So Jim's got a really cool background. He's, he's worked very heavily in the hard sciences space as a, as a traditional headhunter, air quotes, right? And actually had his own business for a long time. So I wanted to bring Jim on to talk a little bit about what's going on with the market and what's going on with what's hot, what's not. There's kind of a lot of rumors and worries. I don't know, Jim, if you saw this morning, Wayfair announced another 10,000 cuts. And I think yesterday Google announced some cuts. Microsoft's going to be announcing some cuts on the 24th or before then. So that's Google, Wayfair, and Microsoft, each with 10,000 to 11,000 people. That's 30,000 people hitting the market. So there's a lot of rumor about, oh my God, the sky is falling, the market's crashing, it's going to be another recession, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring Jim on to tell us another story because Jim sees another side of the world. Jim's background is in essentially, um, metallurgy, foundry, aerospace. And that market is actually, no pun intended, smeltering hot, right, Jim?

Exactly. And that's far from my background. I'm not sure a lot of people been in a steel mill or a foundry. It's not maybe the hottest job out there, but right now it's pretty hot stuff. It's pretty hot. Yeah, it's very hot. We're seeing A totally different market. A lot of— I'll be honest with you, 10 years ago I thought maybe I was missing the mark and should have went down the IT lane. I did not. I stuck in my lane and I'm glad I did. There are just so many jobs in metallurgical engineering, these foundries, steel mills. There's a lot of reshoring going on where companies that were doing this, steel mills, aluminum mills in China and other places around the world are coming back home now. So there's a lot of expansion. In fact, Novelis has a, a thousand-person— be hiring 1,000 people in Bay Minette, Alabama, um, starting now, is building the largest and newest aluminum rolling mill where they do everything from recycling cans to bringing out rolls for, for Tesla and all the electrical cars. Units are using Obviously aluminum has a lot, and then of course we got the battery section, which is also, uh, obviously very attractive. And then on the smaller basis, these small foundries that maybe you've forgotten are also very busy because they're supplying the John Deeres of the world, the Caterpillars of the world. And it just so happens those are places that are hiring and probably keeping the unemployment rate low because where there's some, uh, persons losing jobs, there's plenty of opportunities, uh, in the manufacturing kind of old-school, um, type of, uh, positions.

So before people start thinking, oh, you know, that's, that's, uh, just all blue-collar, you know, factory workers— first of all, that's the heartbeat of America, so, you know, lots of jobs there is not going to hurt us. But I also wanted to point out that these jobs are all over the place. I mean, it could be people that are working, you know, inside of the smelting floor, but it's also engineers, it's also logistics. So give us a, give us like a vertical representation of like what are all the different types of roles, you know, from, from, like I said, unskilled labor all the way through to executive. Just a quick idea as to what all is involved.

Sure. Well, I'm a professional recruiter. I only deal with engineering up to C-suite. That being said, as mentioned before, a lot of persons haven't heard it, maybe not even the word, but I'm a metallurgical recruiter, not a meteorologist or anything like that. It's metallurgical. And that's a— and also it's like a basically a chemistry field where they find how to, you know, deal with the, you know, the metals chemistry. Obviously, every alloy has a little bit different chemistry. And those are very high-level positions. In fact, you might actually find a lot of metallurgical engineers that go all the way up to the CEO level at the large, you know, John Deeres or U.S. Steel or places like that, because it's a very, very important position. It's very technical. Also, there's all types of engineers. And also, I think one thing we're maybe missing is there's just so much automation going on, which is almost like IT. I think like Rockwell Automation, the old Allen-Bradley PLC, those types of roles are very in demand. And because we have a shortage of, of people, you're seeing that there's just— those positions are being very difficult to fill and possibly some people need to reconsider maybe going down the manufacturing lane.

So yeah, it's, it's basically, it's engineers, it's, you know, people with advanced degrees, it's all the logistics and operations about that, and then of course everything that feeds that, right? So this, there's going to be additional, as these factories are built, there's going to be supply and, and all that. So, um, good news for us. But can you tell me why this is happening? Why are we, as you said, repatriating all of these jobs, you know, back to— they were in the United States. And a little bit of history that I know is that I know we used to have a very strong steel industry and it kind of collapsed. So why are we bringing them back?

Two things. One is the cost of business in some parts of the world have gone up and in other parts of the world has kind of gone down. I want to say it like that because we all know inflation is a major problem here. So inflation is a problem in the world. That being said, it's a lot easier to do it here is one reason.

And also we sort of shipped it away because it was cheaper, but now that's not so much the case. So it may not— it may be a little bit cheaper, but it's also more costly to bring it over. And so it turns out being a better deal now to bring it back home again.

And the major problem is supply chain. So by the supply chain getting messed up, and obviously the pandemic in a way sped up— this was already happening, you know, 5, 10 years ago, but that really sped things up to where companies— in fact, Novelis is a company based out of India. So there's actually a lot of, you know, large international companies that might have not chose the USA are now choosing it simply because it's a less expensive place to do business when you've, you, you, uh, you know, averaging all the costs for shipping and, and, uh, and obviously the problems with, you know, you never know the pandemic could rebound and so, you know, it was a problem. So it's a way of controlling your resources. And also there's a talent issue and, uh, all over the world, right, for specific type roles.

So, and you told me that they, there was a, there's a gap, right, that people, companies, not companies, universities didn't didn't make a lot of these metallurgical engineers and scientists for a while. It was like a— there's like a part of time where they just weren't graduating enough.

That's true. There's a big gap. Actually, I just saw some KPIs from a company that basically 55 to 65 persons at that age, you know, it was like 20 or 30%, maybe, maybe as much as 40% of their of their staff, maybe 20 or 30% was 18 to 25, and like 10% was between say 30 and 45. So it was a major glut of, or major hole for that matter, of that middle management level being in these old mills. And they have cleaned up the racks. They're not as— hopefully you enjoy my background. They're not as dirty as they used to be, but they are very hot. Most of these places are not air-conditioned or heated, so I don't want to mislead people and act like it's just, uh, an air-conditioned office. It's not. However, there's a lot of opportunity. And also another thing too is a lot of people realize that the pay's very well. It's like these are good.

So are we going to start bringing back the gray beards and the long-tooths, bringing people back in from retirement because, uh, we need the, you know, we need them back in, back at work?

I think so. In fact, I think I just, uh, had a interview this morning, similar situation. I also do some like pattern makers and jobs like that that are almost not existing anymore, and that's where the CNC machining comes in, but that's a different story.

But yeah, a lot of technical job within that space, the CNC. Yeah, so get this funny story, um, you know I used to work at, uh, at Coca-Cola, right? Long time ago, 2002, 2003, something like that. And, um, yeah, I, I like to get involved with the business when I'm recruiting because when I, I feel like when I'm on the phone with a candidate, especially a passive candidate, I've gotta buy into what the company does in order to pitch the job. You know, like, I, I don't need to know how to do the job, but I, I feel like I need to kind of, um, it will get bought in, you know, really believe in it. So I, I love to, to do ride-alongs and things like that. Anyway, I had the opportunity to go see several manufacturing facilities and talked to people about how literally how the bottling is made and everything. So long story short, I found out through some of the engineers at these factories that the reason that Coca-Cola stopped using refillable bottles, those glass bottles where you used to be able to take them back to the store and take the empties back and then get get filled ones and then they would reuse them. So the reason, and I'm probably not explaining this correctly, so I'll summarize, is that the production of those glass bottles requires a lot of steel molds and steel got really expensive. So the steel mold, uh, manufacturing for the bottles, and apparently each, each mold only lasts about 1,000 bottles. After a while, it starts to deform the glass, something happens and the bottles are more crackable or whatever. So, they have to replace these molds every so many cycles. It got too expensive and too difficult to manufacture when they offshored sourcing and manufacturing. So, when steel went away, the reason that reusable bottles aren't made anymore is because steel went away. Now that steel's coming back, this is the interesting part, because I'm sure that other part you already knew about. Here's the interesting part though. Coca-Cola has said that by the end of this decade, we will begin to see refillable bottles again because we're doing that now. So we can do the molds and it's becoming cheaper now. So the cost was, um, if you produce these refillable bottles, you spent less money making bottles, but you spent more money making molds. They switched to just making glass because they could make the fragile glass, the disposable glass, faster and cheaper without using these expensive molds, using other stuff. I don't know exactly how. So that's why we switched to those glass bottles. And I still like a nice glass, you know, of a nice glass bottle of Coca-Cola.

Oh yeah, that's the best.

Yeah. And so they basically are like, hey, we can do this again and it's going to be not just better for the environment, but also cheaper. And, um, and the bottles are, you know, I guess they're hardier, they can transport easier, they keep the, um, you know, the flavor and everything. And so it's kind of cool that this, there's a lot going on behind the scenes here to help the economy grow. And it has a lot to do with just grassroots, what's going on at the very, very, you know, base of the economy. So why did you, with, with all this positive stuff, and I love that we're talking positive because there's so much negativity out there. You and I talked about this where, you know, we're like, hey, there's all this negativity about the market. With all this, like, I don't know, blue sky or whatever you want to call it, why did you make the switch from being a business owner? So you used to have your own search firm. You were a successful entrepreneur, not that you're not anymore, but you know what I'm saying. So you sold your business or you got out of being in business to actually go to work and have like a square job. With one of the largest staffing firms in the world. So what was that change about?

Well, actually, a couple of things. I wanna go back to your bottling thing real quick. And I thought you were gonna talk about aluminum and obviously—

Oh, no, we can talk about that. I don't know nothing. You talk about that.

I will go back, but I thought that's where you're gonna go to. But I don't know if a lot of people realize, but aluminum is recyclable for infinity. So now you're seeing the Budweiser cans, the Coca-Cola, a lot of it's aluminum, and it's— a lot of that's going to probably stay that way. There's a lot of companies, in fact, probably one, they're going to be doing those, those aluminum cans. So now we're going to have a little competition for the glass.

However, but you know, either way, fine.

So that being said, when it comes to, um, why I made my change, I mean, as we both know, You more so than anyone, Charlie, this is a technology business and you need resources galore more so than you ever did. I actually, believe it or not, started recruiting without a computer. So, I'm an old school, get on the phone and do it like you used to, right?

I was there. I remember.

We know how that works.

Printing resumes and copy and paste and cut and paste. Scissors and take the resume, you know, and patch the other. Yeah, I remember that.

Now, I am not before mailing resumes or fax. I was right on the cusp of maybe faxing, but that's enough said about that. However, today we need these tools. We need ZoomInfo, Indeed. I mean, you go on the laundry list. I mean, there's quite a laundry list now, and they keep on changing. And what's really changed is everything that's somewhat free usually gets monetized, and you need a pretty large budget to have these tools at your, at your fingertips in a fast way, because this is still a fast business, first guy wins. And honestly, that's why as LinkedIn Recruiter was raising their prices as an independent salesperson, and my other tools, it just— and of course insurance for me and my wife, um, it just became easier and easier to go into a large, uh, a large business where I'm supported and also have a team. Uh, not that I didn't have a few individuals working for me, but nothing like what I have now. So it was pretty easy decision.

It was basically a business decision, pretty much.

Yeah, it's a business decision. I'm a full desk recruiter, so nothing's really changed except now I have more resources than I ever imagined at my tip— at my fingertips. And that makes a big difference when you're only using certain tools, and we all know some of those tools are that dry up and you don't feel like you're giving the best service to your client, it makes it relatively an easy decision. And I think you're going to see more and more people go that way simply because of the tools and the expense of being on the, on target recruiter.

Yeah, well, you probably know, you know, when we met, I had my own company and I basically started in this industry back in 1996. And around 2000 or so, my wife and I started a business. So basically, I was an entrepreneur for a good solid, I'd say maybe 18 years. And I eventually, you know, I eventually actually, uh, got out of that and, and, and got a square job with a company called Fiserv where I went to work full-time. Um, that was 5 or 6, uh, 6 years ago actually. So the reason for me was very much the same. It was medical benefits. It was— and some of the stuff maybe you didn't want to talk about, but I don't mind saying, I got tired of that, like, living on the edge of, you know, do I pay my team because we, you know, clients wouldn't pay on time, and payroll and taxes. And there's all these other things involved in running a business that have everything to do with running a business. And as the business owner, you're the only one that, you know, knows about that, um, unless maybe you have, you know, a support assist staff or something. But nobody else knows about that, and it really is a bummer. There's a lot, you know, like you said, insurance, not just health, but company insurance. I once had a client that said that I had to have, um, not only fiduciary insurance, but also I had to have an honesty policy. Only once did I ever in my entire— I, I've had more than 500 clients, and only once did a client ever ask me for an honesty policy. And I was like, what? I mean, it's— so I had to go scramble to get that. That's really it. And that was a 40-hour work week, and then I had to do my regular, you know, my, my the job that the companies were paying me to do. I had to do that. So I finally just said, you know what, I want to do the job. I don't want to do the other job of getting things so that I can do the job. Just, it was too much. Maybe, you know, once the kids get out of, you know, house or whatever. But yeah, sorry, go ahead.

I got you. I, I totally feel you. In fact, the more to the story is, is, as we know, I'm a direct hire recruiter. I don't do temp to hire. So those are some relatively large checks. So when people delay it really affects you. People don't realize sometimes how a recruiter gets paid. I mean, we do in the business, but some people don't. And then if you lose a client or a client goes out of business and owes you, it's really a kick in the gut and you gotta do something. And that's kind of what happened with me where you get to that point and it's a tough business like that because you might have, you know, a lot of payables out, large payables, people kind of, uh, yeah, usually they pay, but it's not on time. Exactly. They pay you maybe net 60, all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, you know, so that explains a lot.

Oh yeah. And some of these companies, as you know too, the big ones, the really large ones, have certain— they might only do, you know, cut checks twice a month or once a month. And that's, uh, it is what it is.

Yeah. So for those of you out there that are considering going out on your own, uh, keep this in mind, right? I mean, I'm not going to discourage you, but it is, but it is work and there are shortcuts. You know, you can hire a company to do back office and stuff like that, but there, you know, there's more to it. You, unless you're just, unless you're an hourly consultant doing independent, you know, consulting where you just work by the hour, um, The moment that you start a business, you know, there's all these other considerations and, um, you have to balance that with, you know, what you want to spend your time doing basically, because it's your time. Now, once you get to a certain point and you're big enough, you can hire somebody to do that part, but now you have to have enough income to be able to pay that person and they're not profit generating. So, you know, again, keep that in mind. It's, it's kind of this hump that they don't talk about in business school where like when you start out, You know, you kind of got to build up to that point and then you have to pass that like growth curve to where it gets easier on the other side. And the hump, I mean, is like it gets harder and harder and harder until you finally, you know, have enough team. I'd say a staff of like 3 people to help you with all that other stuff that you need to get done. And now you need to hire trustworthy people. And I gotta tell you, as a recruiter, um, this may not be a common thing, but I myself am terrible at hiring people. Just terrible. I mean, I, I've probably— for myself, that worked for me, right? I've probably hired twice as many people as I should have, you know, because of just— I don't know, it's, it's, it's very different when you're recruiting for somebody else and you can be impartial, um, and then when you're recruiting for yourself and you can kind of fall in love with someone, you know, as a candidate, and it might not be the best choice. I don't know. Do you find that? Have you ever had to hire for yourself and you feel like you might not be as good at that as you are for hiring for your clients? Or is that just me?

No, that's not just you. But one of the other concerns I have is obviously it's a relationship business. And as soon as you train someone really up, they might not be sticking with you.

Goodbye, CEO.

Exactly. In fact, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to kid. That was how I got in the business. I started off as a founder recruiter with a small firm. And when we were 2 in, I was like, wait a minute, I can do this myself. Um, so that's a challenge too, is to keep a rock star happy, uh, within your own agency is always a challenge. So you might be training someone up for themselves or for someone else. So it's a very challenging market because this is a relationship business. And, um, you know, initially, you're right, it could be a very inexpensive business to start, you know, from that perspective, right?

But fast forward 10 years later and you're like, oh my God, running a business is a lot of work. So you can strike out on your own and then realize, uh-oh.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, there's all those challenges, everything. But so anyway, great to be with a large firm, and I highly recommend, uh, that as a career path.

Also stress levels.

Yeah, stress levels down. And also, but I do know there's a lot of recruiters looking because unfortunately we didn't talk about this, but then some of those clients are companies you mentioned earlier, the the Zillow's or the Google, I mean, all of them, like you said, Microsoft even. A lot of times the sourcers and HR go first. In fact, I saw some onboarding people just got laid off. It's kind of hard to have onboarding people when you're not hiring. So, but there's plenty of good jobs for recruiters out there. It's just right now I know it's, IT's kind of tough.

Yeah, IT specifically is a little mix. It's not, I mean, there are lots of companies that are still hiring and growing. And, you know, I mean, certainly my company is, but not at the same speed as last year. However, its growth is just not as— so it's still growing but not as fast. Um, and so, you know, there's just a lot of noise and confusion. I got— I have a buddy, uh, I'm not going to disclose who it is. They, they may or may not have been on the show prior to that, which is not giving too much away because this is like our 137th episode. So good luck finding the one guest out of the 137 that, that have been on the show. Um, but I'm going to tell you this. So he's having a hard time getting a job as, uh, as he's a recruiter, experienced recruiter like you and I, and has also been a leader, recruitment leader. He doesn't really want to do the management necessarily. He will if, uh, you know, if that's a— it's a good opportunity, a good company, but he's not looking for just management. He'd be just as happy being an individual contributor or, you know, starting up a small team or something like that, but he's having the hardest time finding a job. Um, the thing is, he's really old, like you and me, you know what I mean? He's over 50. So, and I think the, the age of discrimination, uh, is 45. So anything after 45, you're, you're a protected class. Now you and I are both protected classes by a few years What advice do you have for old fogies like us who might need to go and get a job right now and are probably facing competition from people that are literally half our age? What advice do you have for us, for, for the old folks?

Okay, well, that's a fair question. And in fact, I was just at a networking event last night, so I think that's number one, is just get out there and network, uh, because again I always, I used to say this when I was younger, but now that I'm older, you can't help how old you are. It's really, once you get over that barrier, it's irrelevant because it is what it is. And when you have, when you're 25 with no experience, hey, I can't help, and I'm a young guy, you can start to give me an opportunity. And the, and the same goes when you're older in a way. And usually that barrier can be, can be overcome pretty quickly. And actually, I guess in a lot of ways, that's where the beauty of our business can be, is if it is, say, your, your initial communication is a phone call, they can't see you. I mean, you know, they look at your background, they did, and then let that speak volumes for when they do meet you. And then I just, you know, it's obviously age discrimination, but even so, I think it can be overlaid with experience. And now with this whole of, of an amount of people that need to be working, more and more companies are very, very open to that individual simply because of supply and demand.

Well, I hope so. And, uh, Anita, um, made this comment: careful when you say old, over 50 is old.

Uh, I didn't realize 45 was old.

I'm sorry. First of all, Anita, no, it's not. I, I'm 100% with you. Absolutely not. I'm over 50 and I don't feel a day past 30. I mean, like, it just I can't even believe that. I'm probably gonna be getting my AARP card in the mail any minute now. So it's not that I'm calling people over 50 or over 45 old, it's that we're protected classes. And the problem here is that when we, when they look us up on LinkedIn or we interview and, you know, video interview and we are, you know, not 25, basically there's this discrimination. In fact, the Facebook user just posted, ageism is not only alive and well. It's thriving. Yeah, it's one of those, you know, we talk about diversity and we talk about inclusion and we talk about belonging, but it's one of those weird ones that catches you by surprise because at some point in your life you will face this ageism even though you don't feel like you're, you know. So my friend, my friend's call was a wake-up call for me because I was like, man, You know, I'm lucky right now I have a job, but what would it be like for me to be having to look for a job right now considering that there's all that? So I appreciate your advice on, you know, um, what to do. So networking, basically try to do a phone call instead of a video interview from right off.

Yeah, I don't think that's not a bad thing, and it's kind of old school, but, uh, in fact, I just had a Zoom call that didn't go well, and he We did a phone call and it worked great. So nothing wrong with picking up the phone the old-fashioned way and using obviously all the networking, all those people you've met in your past. Don't forget about all those. Hopefully you kept a good fat Rolodex because you'd be surprised. And then one thing I will say too is age is one thing we all have in common. I mean, I think hopefully people understand that, you know, where you're at in the world, we can't help that. So I think once you get over that barrier, hopefully it shouldn't be a problem.

Good point. That's a good point. Yeah.

Or make it a joke.

Yeah. So, you know, I haven't— I, um, I have to laugh. Carmen, geez, it's hard to think over 50 years old. No, it's not. It's not. People are gonna hate me for that. That's okay. Go ahead and hate me because I didn't mean that 50 years old. What I'm saying is that we get seen that way. Um, it's— I know it's happened to me already, but, um, I was actually— I ran into this as a, as a full desk recruiter when I was working at a company, um, where the client literally outright said, quite literally said, we don't want any old people. And I was like, what? See, I'm sorry, has that ever happened to you, Jim? Have you ever had a client that said we We don't want any old people.

Actually, it's going a little different way. And I thought you were going to talk about— I was getting ready. I was laughing about being remote because now I think maybe that's another, the other maybe avenue is being remote. It really doesn't matter now.

Come on. Get a little cardboard cutout of your face. We're all 20 years younger. Be like, yeah, yeah.

Put an old LinkedIn profile picture up. You're all good.

Copy and paste your resume so it doesn't go past 10 years.

Yep, it all works. But yeah, with this remote life where you live, I think it even really defers the age farther, even farther down the list of needs. And again, supply and demand. Persons are— I'm actually getting the opposite of, yeah, we want anyone and everyone. We don't care. I mean, I'm sure there's some maybe limits.

In your industry, right? So somebody posted, you know, old school works in aerospace. Definitely. Yeah, that's for sure. But, you know, so here's another piece of advice then. You got me, you gave me 5 now. The, the other one is look for an industry where that's not a problem because there may be some industries where that is.

Yep. And you can relate. And then of course there's the relating with everyone else, right? So it is what it is. Uh, but wow.

Yeah, check this out. This is a really good one. As an old guy, is from a YouTube watcher, 51 years old. I'm concerned that any future employer will wonder why someone at my age is not looking for a leadership role. Yeah, take that one.

Yeah, people kind of have a, you know, why isn't— and also I get, as which I used to never— why hasn't someone moved around more? If you've been at, say, Boeing for 30 years, what are you doing? But it's just a different thing, you know.

But that's it. Culture.

It is what it is.

So what would you have— what do you say to our YouTube, uh, watcher that, um, you know, they're shocked that you're not looking for a leadership role? I mean, I've been there, done that. You know, I'm currently in a leadership position, um, and I've taken jobs— I've gone backwards into non-leadership and stuff like that. But what advice do you have for, for those people that are maybe not looking for a leadership role and they are over 50?

I would go back to your strengths. So if your strengths is sales and you've been a sales manager, I think everyone knows how that can go. Sometimes you don't mind getting ratcheted down to the salesperson, got your strength, and obviously you're dealing with other person's maybe, you know, issues or whatever. So that's a valid point of, you know, you could even explain easily why that would be a career path. Otherwise, you know, again, like a metallurgist, I mean, there's a lot of people work in labs and, solitary type work and maybe like it. And that's again, you do best where you're happy. And also too, as the funnel goes up, there's fewer positions. So maybe you got a little glass ceiling and that's okay too. That's life. But I would say that not being a leader in your 50s is not a bad thing. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not a bad thing. I mean, you might, you know, it might even be looking for it from a point of view of like lifestyle and not having to, you know, sometimes being a leader you have to work longer hours, travel more, things like that, you know. So those are reasonable explanations. So, um, did you ever have a client that said, I don't want any old people? Because I'm going to tell you what I did with this client, but I wanted to see if you had that.

See here. Oh well, for certain positions, definitely. I mean, persons At least I think people can still tell a recruiter about anything. I don't know. They seem like they do anyway. But yeah, there's definitely, um, how do you say?

Well, there's some jobs where there's a requirement, right? Like if you are looking for a cashier at a bank, a bank teller, and your bank is located in a part of the city where a majority of the population is of a particular cultural background or ethnicity, it certainly, uh, it certainly viable and a good idea to recruit people that are a part of that community. So that makes sense where you might wanna have, you know, that requirement. But this was just, we don't want anybody who's old. And like literally just nobody who's old. My first question was, define old. Like what is, you know, first of all, what is old? And they're like, well, you know, anybody that's in their 30s or 40s. And I was like, oh my God. You know, like, That actually happens to be not a protected class. So you're telling me that, yeah, anybody over 45 is protected, but in their 30s they're not protected by, you know, age discrimination laws? So I was just like, I can't do this. I— anyway, short story, I just told them I wasn't going to work with them.

Totally understand. Maybe it's because if someone's that specific, it's, uh, and then you start to wonder if it's about their background. Is it the resume, or do you want to meet the person first and see if they they look like or what. And if that's the case, it makes our job almost impossible unless you get totally lucky. Yeah.

And then what am I going to say to anybody that does apply for the job that, you know, is 31? Like, oh, sorry, you don't qualify, right?

That's easy to say to dudes, just don't call them.

But yeah, but how am I supposed to know that, right? So I, I, I've got the perfect resume, they've got, you know, 10 years of, uh, of work history, but it doesn't say when they graduated from school until you taught, you know, that, that happens, believe it or not.

So, well, you know, that's the person over 50 though, you know that already.

Yeah, you know that already, that's true. So over 35, definitely. Yeah, but again, I just, I wasn't going to do it. I just wasn't going to do it. It may not be a protected class to be, you know, 31 years old, but still. Um, Carmel says, I had a feeling that happened to me at an interview where the manager took one look at me and said she has no questions. Yeah, that might be a clue.

Yeah, that's not good. That's not good.

That's, uh, that might be a clue. It is.

That's strange. That was a short interview then.

Well, at least you knew. Well, but she said I had no questions. She didn't say you didn't get the job, I guess.

Okay. Anyway, I mean, that's not the end of the way I can see not getting, you know, some interviewing processes. Yes, no questions asked, make a job offer. Makes sense.

You know, at the recent HRTX, the most recent one, there was a presenter who spoke directly about, um, by— it would not, not specifically ageism, but basically that she spoke directly about bias. And she said something that, that really— it— I kind of knew this in the back of my, like, somewhere deep in my heart, in the back of my head. I kind of knew this, but I never articulated it in the way she did. And the way she articulated really brought it to light. and it was, it was definitely, it made me feel it a lot more. And basically what she said was, there is no way to stop bias. There's nothing you can do to prevent or eliminate or control bias completely. So what she was saying is that it's not about about having zero bias, because bias is going to exist. It's about knowing— this was her explanation— it's about knowing what your bias is, being aware of your bias, and being able to, you know, control it, or it's not exactly what she said, but being able to manage it, deal with it. So, essentially, the big takeaway for me was you're not going to eliminate it. You're not going to get rid of it. You're not going to, you know, in yourself and your hiring managers. So, the best way to combat it is to bring it to light, make it, you know, make people aware of it. She gave some tools on that. You can go see the broadcast. It's free on HRTX. But to me, that really kind of hit home. It's made me rethink a lot of things when I'm, you know, when I'm talking about bias and explaining to hiring managers, like, look, it's okay. It's okay that you have bias. Everybody does. I have bias, but I know what my bias is. And so, by being aware of it, I'm like, "Okay, hold on a second. I'm going to pause. I know this is a bias for me, so let me try to think around it." As opposed to just not knowing that you have the bias, pretending that you don't. Go around saying, "I have no bias." That was the shocking part to me, was she basically said, Everybody has bias. You can't stop it. So that was kind of a big, um, a big deal.

I totally agree. I 100% agree. In fact, I think as you get— I think a lot of times it just depends as your life experience grows. You, uh, your bias comes from your, your, uh, personal experience with certain individuals and you classify them as such and it skews you or makes you cynical. And it's just part of life and you got to overcome that. Hopefully you have another Hiring managers.

Exactly. Say, hey, listen, I, you know, so I, I actually started interviewing candidates a little bit differently as a result of that. And I had, um, one of my candidates to come work for me as a member of my team, and I had one of my colleagues, um, conduct an interview strictly from the point of view of bias. So she— I call it a cultural interview or whatever. There were specific questions that I wanted her to ask and things to make sure that I wasn't just dismissing a candidate that I thought was maybe, you know, maybe not good enough because of my bias. And so having that other person and being aware of the bias and telling them, hey, this is my bias, and then they kind of checked it and they were able to come back, oh no, this person definitely is not qualified, you know, you're right. Or, hey, no, they're really good, just take another look. So I injected another step in the process because of that, and I applied that to all my candidates. Which they didn't like very much. My colleague didn't like very much because it was a lot of interviews. But I think if you're aware of it, you can do something about it. If you're not aware of it, you just— you're not going to do anything about it.

I think getting a second opinion is big. I mean, my— the new age group I've been running into lately is, um, uh, how do I say this, women between 25 and 40 with children. Uh, that's another— because again, there's a bias there. There are people feel that it should be doing a certain thing and/or—

25, you're 30, when are you going to have kids? Why do you want to— we don't want you to work here and then leaving, you know. Yeah, no, I totally get it.

Yeah, so that's a big one lately for me. Our persons with, you know, the young children that have responsibilities and they don't like, oh, we just got burnt on a, you know, single mother, we don't want to go through that again. And I get it, but that's a bias that you have to take each individual at their own, you know, at their own level.

So you're aware that the hiring managers have that perspective, and so you make sure that, yeah, you have, you have something to check and balance that. Yeah, that's smart.

You might lose, you probably still lose, but at least you can make it work. But that's a new— we're talking about age groups.

I just thought it's a lot difficult. You know what, you're right, but it's a lot harder to, um, to be unilateral like that when it's been brought to light. You know what I'm saying? So If, if, if you just say, oh, okay, no problem, and you're the type of recruiter that just takes that feedback at face value, oh, how did you like, uh, Sandra, that, you know, that candidate that you interviewed? Well, she's not a great fit. I don't really know why. Oh, okay, no problem, we'll move on to the next one. But if you come back and say, well, you know, is it because she's of, you know, child-rearing age? Is it because she has kids? Because she's a single mother? Because, you know, you can't really consider— then that hiring manager is going to have to like do a second, like, okay, hold on a minute. Yeah. So it's our responsibility to bring that to light, um, to give somebody that, you know, a fair chance basically. And that's what this, that's what this speaker was saying at HRTX. So man, I promised you I was going to only keep you for 30 minutes, and here we are, definitely past 30 minutes. And I told you, man, we get up here and we have fun and you just forget about it. So appreciate you coming so much, man. It's, uh, it's been fun to have you.

Hey, thank you. I, I think I feel a little younger now. I don't know, but, uh, I didn't know we're gonna go off of that path, but I sure appreciate that opportunity. And it's a real honor to be on this with you, Shelly. You are the godfather of resourcing, and, uh, I guess—

thank you for not saying grandfather.

Yeah, I guess, I guess the exp— your, the experience, you know, does, uh, you know, filter into what we're talking about. But it's been fantastic. I look forward to learning more from you. And working with you in the future.

I always have a question for people as we're, you know, ending the show. And for you, you know, it's the same question for everybody, but is there something that you want the audience to know that you want them to, you know, chew on, right? So what one thing would you say to the audience that you feel like you really need to get the word out about and you want them to go think about it. Doesn't have to be profound, doesn't have to be anything, just something that you feel like really needs to be known.

Ah, let's keep it simple. I think recruiting can be fun. I think we'll just leave it at that. You could still have a good time.

That's deep, like really deep, like that's very deep.

So it could be a good time, you know, deep and fun.

Yeah, recruiting.

Yeah, you could have a good time with it, um, and make sure you don't just get stuck in your little lane. Get out I was just— we haven't talked about it, but I was going to say join trade shows, join societies, read magazines on, on where you're at. You'd be surprised. That's old school, right? Magazines.

Wow.

I mean, they're still out there.

Even if they're online, it's still a magazine.

Yeah, exactly. A lot of these companies, you know, are big in certain, uh, whatever magazine it is, via aerospace or advertising, or I can think of a bunch of them. And that's some great information. And also Good sources for candidates looking for jobs. Go pick up an industry journal that's about your industry. Read.

At the very least, you'll get some more wrinkles in your brain, maybe even have some fun. Thanks, Jim. It's been awesome. Thank you. All right, everybody, have a great weekend. Take care.

Bye-bye.