Joel Zeff Live on Shally's Alley

Stop everything, it's ta-da time! Hi, hey everybody, you are live on Shally's Alley, uh, last episode of March, Friday, March 28th. And now for something completely different. Um, we tend to get pretty serious and hands-on and practical and tactical here in this, uh, in this corner of the world. Um, but today I have something that is a bit of a departure from that, still definitely in our space, but another perspective. And that is Joel Zeff, who is a former recovering journalist who turned speaker after doing some executive presentations. And now he basically makes a living going to conferences and events and corporations to teach people about fun, basically. Um, he just wrote a book, second book actually, and the second book is called Make the Right Choice. It's about leading with passion, elevating your team, and unleashing fun at work. And that's really kind of what I wanted to, to talk about is, um, is the fun stuff. Because I feel like in our business, especially nowadays, it's gotten a lot more serious a lot more. There's regulation, there's change, there's automation. Um, that we went through— you might not know this, Joe— went through a pretty bad series of layoffs where a lot of folks in the industry lost their jobs, and now they're getting rehired. So there's definitely some, you know, we got beat up. And I just wanted to make, make a difference and help people smile, maybe even find ways to celebrate the wins. And that's kind of what attracted me to what you were doing. So tell me a little bit about, Joel, what is Tadaa Time? Can you make that, you know, can you give us a soundbite on Tadaa Time? That seems to be all over your page. Sure.

Thank you for having me, Shally. It's a great opportunity. And what a wonderful introduction. I mean, you just, it's a perfect summary. We could just stop it. We could stop the podcast right now.

But then it wouldn't be funny.

Yeah, I think we're good. The ta-da is a celebration. You know, it's a flourish, right? When a magician finishes his act, right? It's a ta-da. Everything is that moment of celebration. And when my kids were younger and for all your listeners, I'm sure when they remember when their kids were young, 3, 4, everything in their life is a ta-da. Everything. We celebrate every moment. I remember when my kids, you know, they would eat their whole lunch, we'd go, ta-da, you did it, you ate the whole sandwich, right? They threw a ball or like, ta-da, you did it. Everything was a celebration. And then we get older. We still have these moments for our team, for our customers, for our brand, but we don't celebrate them. And that's our fuel, right? That's our fuel. And so we have to celebrate these moments.

I think in our business, especially because we in, in the recruiting space deal with, um, a higher level of complexity in, in politics. It's a very politically charged job, whether you admit it or not, whether you like it or not, because a big part of what we do, 90% of what we do, is around people. We're working with the candidate, we're working with the hiring authority, and so we actually have 3 egos involved: our ego, the candidate's ego, and the hiring manager's ego. And we're exposed to a lot of different parts of the organization. So we tend to have a fairly heavily politicized job. And that can, you know, can be pretty— not all the conversations are positive. It's great when you make a hire, but the rest of the time, it's the grind. And it's sometimes just you know, part psychologist, part cop. So it's really important that we learn to, to bring some fun into it. And I think also, Joel, demystify or destigmatize it because I think there's this— correct me if I'm wrong— but there's this sense that we can't have fun at work. If you're, if you're laughing and having a good time at work, it's not work. You're absolutely right.

In fact, I talk in my book about the myths of fun. And one of the myths is we don't have time for fun.

Well, that does—

that's a very dark existence that we don't have time for fun. We should love what we do. We want our team members to be passionate, but nowhere on the hiring application does it say you have to be passionate about your job.

Yeah, it doesn't say be serious and never smile either, right?

We want them to be passionate, but we have to create the opportunity, the foundation, by giving them accountability and responsibility and ownership. And when they do, When they have that ownership, they start to care. And when we, when they care, they have passion and that's fuel. And that fuel creates success with whatever their job is. We want them to be successful. And so we have to make time for fun. And my fun is going to be different than your fun, Gally. Right.

Right.

What's fun for me is going to be different for you. But we as leaders have to figure out what is that fun? And we have to make time for it. The other myth is we're a very serious company.

We can't, we can't have fun.

Very serious manufacturer or distributor or sales or government contractor, defense contracting.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's just come up with accounting. Very serious accountants.

Serious.

Very serious. Of course, what that fun again fuels us and we have to have these moments that energize us. And that fuel creates success. It makes us better leaders, better teammates, better communicators. So those are, you know, another myth about, about fun is that it, it, it takes too much time. Takes too much time. Too much time.

Ain't nobody got time for that. We don't have time.

It's just for, you know, and in my book, I give a lot of different ideas that I've kind of gathered over the years from working with so many great work cultures. And most of these ideas take very little time. And it just, it's this little moment that, that kind of creates that appreciation. That's a part of fun, being appreciated, being positive.

Yeah, I was thinking about that, right? If you have a, if you have a serious job, and there are a lot of other serious jobs that, you know, besides recruiting, I would say law enforcement, you know, being, being in the police, firefighting. I mean, dealing with some— yeah, I'm just thinking about like, you know, a lot of crisis, right? But even then, aside from the eventful, you know, gallows humor, but even there, you still— you may not celebrate your job like, 'Yay, we just had a major disaster,' because obviously that's not appropriate. But you can celebrate the wins within that, like the little parts of that that made that. So sure, we just put out a fire, in HR and TA, we just put out a fire. So that's not a fun thing. But can we bring something, you know, can we celebrate some of the successes within that? Sure, it was a bad situation. So I think it's a little bit of a kind of a perspective change on how do you find something to celebrate to stay motivated and keep positive? Is that kind of what—

Everything you do has that moment of celebration. When I email somebody and I send an email, I always end my emails with "Ta-da!" because we look at what we just did. It's these little moments that we have to make sure that we celebrate. And we have many of these moments every single day. And if it is a mindset, it's an attitude, and it sets the tone and it creates energy. And when we create that foundation, our team is going to feel appreciated and that positive support is important. It's a foundation for our success. You put positive support and opportunity together, it's amazing what people can accomplish. When in my keynotes, I will do, I use improv games. And so I'll bring some volunteers to come up on stage. We do an improv game. What am I doing? I'm giving them opportunity to be creative, to work together as a team, to focus, to communicate, to take ownership. What does the audience give them? Positive support through laughter and applause.

That's true. That feels good. It releases endorphins, right?

Absolutely. It feels great. And when you put those two things together, it's amazing what people can accomplish. And most of the groups I work with now are, you know, what you would say serious, serious business, you know, accounting, engineering, architects, no laughing matter, healthcare, you name it.

Yeah, right.

Right. But we all want to play. We all want to have fun. We just need to create that opportunity. And these little moments of opportunity and these little moments where we have a little fun, what does it do? It gives us our mind a break and then we can reset, right? It's a flush. It's a cleansing.

It's kind of like resetting that. Yeah, right. Yeah.

And if we don't, because we're going to have this stress and pressure and frustration and negativity. And that's just going to weigh us down. And we're not going to be able to come up, and we're not going to be able to come up and find that, find that success as a leader, as a creative person, as a communicator. And so these moments of celebration, these tada moments, these moments that are fun, are important to our success. Because if we're not having fun, I promise you that team member is going to leave and all the resources that you spent recruiting that person, all the energy that you spent recruiting that person just walked out the door. Why? Because you didn't give them opportunity and positive support. They figured out they're not happy. And once they figure out they're not happy, they're going to go look for somebody else that's going to give them opportunity and positive support, that's going to give them appreciation and an opportunity to have fun and to be fulfilled and rewarded. What is it that's going to fulfill us and reward us? That's what's fun.

Well, everybody has a different motivator, right? Some people are affiliation motivated. Some people are power motivated. Some people are achievement motivated. And so, and you have dark and light sides of that, you know, but not everybody, for example, wants to be publicly celebrated. They would rather a private accolade. Not everyone is motivated by a cash prize. They would rather have a a trophy or, you know, whatever. But I get what you're saying. Um, and maybe as you were saying that, it made me think about way back in the beginning of like the whole dot-com frenzy. Um, companies like Google, I can think of as probably one of the first examples, started making the workplace fun. They had a campus cafeteria and Segways, if you remember those, or the original electric vehicle. Um, and, uh, you know, volleyball, sand volleyball, and pool tables. And, and people started looking for that at work. And they're like, well, should I go to work at this straight-laced company where everybody has to wear a suit and tie to work? Or should I go take the job where I can play pool all day? And that sort of attracted talent, as you were saying, people leaving because they aren't having fun. And it's not your job to provide fun for employees. But if you provide a fun environment, they'll provide their own fun, you know. So, but at what point do, at what point does that stop becoming an attraction function and turn into a distraction where your employees spend all their day playing pool and not getting any work done?

Well, it's giving responsibility, right? Part of it is creating that responsibility with the team member that you expect results, for sure.

And so you have something to do, right? And you can have fun doing it.

Fun is not just ping-pong tables and, and cappuccino machines. Fun is what is it that's going to fulfill you? You know, that's the question. What's going to reward you? What's fulfilling for you? Is mentoring another team member? Why can't that be fun? That should absolutely be fun. That would be fun for me. That brings me joy.

Is if they have a win, you celebrate their win because you help them learn. So yeah, that's, that's a good point.

I think people get caught up in fun has to be ping pong table playtime, right?

And fun doesn't mean— Yeah. And A game, if fun can be fun with it, right?

And all that is great. Believe me, I love all of that. But it's also giving, you know, providing training, providing the opportunity to advance, providing the role or responsibility that's going to make you happy and fulfilled. All that is fun. Being in the right role, fun. Having a great manager and a leader that's going to give you positive support and opportunity, that's fun. Being able to present ideas and have the opportunity to be innovative is fun. All these things are—

Innovative is fun, experimenting.

Making a big sale, fun.

So how can you started, well, after you went, left journalism, you went into kind of improv and that's where you started and you ended up making a transition from there after that big thing at Texas Instruments. And kind of like launching a speaker career. But between that and from there, you've learned a lot about improv. You bring improv games into your experiences. What principles from improv can transform the way recruiters engage with candidates, if you can think of a couple of things?

Sure, for sure. Improv, as soon as the first day, I was working as a journalist in Dallas and the first weekend somebody took me to an improv show and it was like the movies, right? It was like I was watching the show and it was like there was music. Ah, you know, it was like I found my calling. I was in love. This was an incredible moment in my life. And so I started taking workshops. I eventually auditioned, became a member of a troupe in Dallas. We had our own theater and did thousands of improv shows. Improv taught me a great deal. I love it and I'm passionate about it. And I love sharing what improv taught me. And I think there's a lot of messages within improv that I share in my keynote that are perfect for all different types of organizations, not just obviously your recruitment-type audience. And I think there's, one is being present and in the moment. We're at our best when we're present. Improv forces us to be present. When I bring people up on stage, they can't think about their email, voicemail, what they're doing later today, they're going to lunch. They can only think about the game, the objective, and their immediate team member. And so they're at their best as a creative person, as a leader, by being focused. Improv forces us to be focused and present and in the moment. And so the challenge is when we walk out the door, we go back to the office, is to make sure that we choose to be more present in the moment with our team, with our customers, with our partners, with our vendors, and to really encourage our team to be more present. And what that means is we're at our best, we're focused, we're connected. And I think that's a huge, huge message that improv taught me. Another message that improv really taught me is about change and to embrace change, right? For those of you listening, there's no rehearsal in improv. There's no script. There's no plan. Everything's happening for the, for the first time right in that moment. And so you have to embrace this change and disruption and not be afraid of it. And there's a freedom. And that freedom is because you're making choices. One is you're prepared for change and one is you're open and flexible to change. And when you really focus on those two choices, change isn't so scary. Disruption isn't so scary. And we embrace it and we realize that most change is not in our control. We only control how we react to the change, right? That's the key. We only control how we react to change. And so we can choose to be positive and helpful and supportive and understanding. That's going to go way better than being stressed and impatient and frustrated. It's our choice. Always our choice.

Okay, I gotcha. Um, it's always our choice. So let me kind of translate that to a little bit more of like what we do in recruiting. A lot of times we start workflow of a new job order requisition by having a meeting with the hiring manager, and we call that sometimes an intake meeting or a kickoff meeting. Should, should every time we do a kickoff meeting, should we borrow from improv and just, you know, listen to what they're saying and then do the "yes, and"?

Yes, and is very important. That is a big part of improv. What I really, what I took when I do my keynotes, I don't talk about "yes, and" because it's, I think, a little bit confusing for the audience. So to me, I wanted to translate it so that I could really, so the audience could really understand what Yes and means yes to me is about positive support, right? Right. Creating that appreciation.

Yes to what you're saying. Yes to what you wrote. Yes to what's going on.

Being supportive and positive and creating that appreciation because that fuels us. The and to me is opportunity, giving you the opportunity to be creative, the opportunity to be accountable, to take ownership. And to me, that's what yes and— and for that translation, when I talk about it in my keynotes, I talk about creating opportunity and positive support. Something we just mentioned, and how important it is to put those two things together. That to me is what is everything that IMPROV stands for: opportunity and positive support. And the other thing about IMPROV is it's a really great micro— microcrop— micro— I'm having a problem with that word. I haven't had lunch yet.

Looks like, guys, somebody needs a cheeseburger.

I need something. Microcosm.

Microcosm. Gotcha.

Microcosm. Boy, I was having a really hard time, and I would—

and now we're having fun. You just—

yeah, I would make this a clip. I would make this a clip, shall we?

This is definitely a clip.

Joel trying to say microcosm. So anyway, it's about teamwork and leadership, and one question: how do I help the people around me be successful? Right? That's improv. It's not about I'm trying to be the star.

Yeah, that's true. That is— I mean, improv is not something that you just do by yourself. I suppose you can, but it's much more fun when you see an improv troupe, how they sort of, you know, bounce things off of each other. Like, I don't know if you watch this, but Whose Line Is It Anyway? I think it's brilliant. Yeah. And how they finish each other's ideas and sentences. It's just— so that's definitely teamwork.

What they're doing is in their mind, they're thinking, how do I help my teammate be successful? What do I need to do? That's the question for every person on this call. That's the challenge. Ask that question every day. Now, you know the answer. You're smart. You know what people around you need to be successful. The hard part is to act on it. And that's what really separates the great organizations. And you don't take my word for it. Every time there's a championship, sports championship, every time best places to work, best companies in the industry. In the interview, they might use different words, but they're all saying the same thing. We care about the person right next to us. We want our whole team to be successful.

We'll pull—

we're all pulling the same way. We have the same goal. We're, we're family. We care about the person right next to us. We're using different words, but what we're all saying the same thing.

It's team support.

Yeah. How do I help the people around me be successful? Answering that question and more importantly, acting on it.

So let's drill down on that a little bit.

Sure.

What would be TA's version of dropping the ball but making it part of the scene?

What do you mean?

Well, you know, we're supporting our team.

Yep.

And you're talking about that in improv. There's that, there's that, I don't know, the mechanism or the improv technique of, you know, if someone drops the ball, makes a mistake or commits an error, just roll with it and make it part of the scene, right? So how do we— what do we do in TA when one of our teammates drops the ball? How do we make it part of the scene?

You build on it and you help—

Build on it. Okay.

You build on it. You build on it. And then you also help transition to make that a success.

So rather than, oh no, that's wrong, or, you know, that you're the— it's the yes and principle, right? It's like, Okay, yeah. But also, right? Yeah, and also, and kind of redirect.

Let's take the moment, you know, and we have to transition and engage.

Yeah, that's the tough part.

Right? And being positive and supportive and build on that to make sure that it's successful. In improv, sometimes not every, somebody might say something doesn't work, doesn't, you know, you might make a mistake. You have to learn from your mistakes.

Happens all the time.

You want to minimize them, but then you build on it and find success. And that's another— actually, it's a great point. It's another great message in improv. It's about staying in the game. It's the best message improv ever taught me is that people will make mistakes. People will say things that don't work.

They don't go with the scene or right.

Don't move forward. Same at, same at everybody's job. Things happen. People make mistakes. When we stay in the game, success is going to be there. And the only thing we can't do in improv is quit. And when I say that, I mean, we quit goals, we quit initiatives, we quit ideas. Why? Because we don't have the money, we don't have the budget, we don't have the people, we don't have the time, we don't want to learn something new. There's always an excuse. But whatever our goals are at each company organization, whatever our goals are, we're going to reach those goals as long as we stay in the game. Now, staying in the game is hard. You might have to learn something new. You might have to get out of your comfort zone. You might have to find a mentor, have more training. To stay in the game is creating something new. You might have to come up with a new idea to communicate, a new idea to market, a new idea to recruit. But as long as we stay in the game, we're going to find success. If we quit, we say it's too hard, it's too difficult. We don't have the money.

Not only is that no fun, right?

Failure's guaranteed.

Curtain call, you know, curtains drop, end of the show, right?

Right. You've guaranteed failure.

If, um, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

No, I was gonna say, but to stay in the game, success will be there. Maybe next week, next month, next year.

Doesn't matter how many times you drop the ball.

Right.

So if we, if we could, if I could, you know, magic wand theory, if I could wave a magic wand and make every recruiter in the world take an improv class, What do you think would change first? How they interview candidates or how they survive meetings with hiring managers?

I think they will, I think the embracing change and disruption, and I think that will give them a freedom and give them more confidence as a communicator, more confidence, no matter what happens. Because sometimes we're afraid that We're going to make a mistake. We have a fear of saying the wrong word. Messing— I just messed up the word microcosm, right? And, you know, we have that fear and that freezes us. And when that freezes us, we're not at our best as leaders, as communicators. And so we have to kind of take off some of those barriers and that freedom that improv really encourages, that we are going to make mistakes. We want to minimize them. But we are going to make mistakes, and we want to learn from them. But we can't be afraid to make a mistake because that freezes us.

So learning from improv would be learning how not to freeze and roll with it.

I think embracing change and disruption. I think also creating opportunity and positive support and understanding that we have to be present with each other and in the moment with each other. To make sure that we can ask that question, "How do I help the people around me be successful?" Answer it, and more importantly, act on it.

OK. All right. All right. Last little question about that. What, what— kind of maybe even changing the direction a little bit here. What do you think are the biggest barriers to creating an energizing, fun candidate experience? Because There's always been in our industry, maybe not always, but for a very long time, there's been talk about candidate experience. And you have people on both sides, both camps, if you will. Some say, "It's a job. We don't need to cater to the candidate experience. They need to want the job." And some people say, "If you don't provide a good candidate experience, they're going to get a good candidate experience elsewhere." And it can be a little bit polarizing. But regardless of which camp you're in, I think that there may be, um, I think there's definitely some truth in making the experience of a candidate be more engaging. So what's preventing us from, from taking the lessons from improv and from Roll With It and, you know, the, the, the engagement that you're talking about? What's preventing us from applying that? To our conversations with candidates? How can we?

I think a lot of it is fear. And we get into the routine of doing the same thing over and over and over. Right. We get—

well, improvement is everything but routine. It's quite the opposite, right?

Like, well, this is the way we've always done recruitment. Like, why should we change now? Why should we enhance it? Why should we do anything that's different? And we only are forced to change when things, we realize things aren't working the same way. That we cannot recruit the next generation the same way we recruited the prior generation. I was at an event this past weekend and they were doing an awards program. This gentleman won this award and he said a few words and he told his story. And it was the best moment of the entire awards event. Wasn't planned, wasn't scripted. He told a story about being an immigrant, uh, coming to this country. This, this company gave him a chance and he worked his way up to a leadership position, and he just won a really incredible award. This moment— and I said to the CEO, I said, I hope somebody recorded that because that's your recruitment video. I said, you don't need to do anything other than show that 2-minute video and everybody will want to work for you, other— as opposed to other hospitality companies, because that is the essence of who you are, of giving someone the opportunity, giving somebody training, believing in somebody, giving them the tools to be successful and promoting them and believing in them. And that person, by the way, has had worked at this company for 20-plus years.

That's life-changing. Yeah, definitely incredible, right?

That right there. And I— and he said— and, you know, I said that to the CEO, and he's like— he, you know, he's like, I— he didn't even, you know, didn't even think about that being a recruitment video. I said, that will get you people. That will get you talent. That's that right there. Telling— being honest, being authentic, telling true stories. Being, you know, taking away some of the barriers. You know, to me, that's, I think, looking at through a different perspective, looking things, looking things in a new way, I think is always important in every process and especially, especially the recruitment process.

Do you think candidates need more clarity or more confetti?

Oh, you got two C's there, clarity and confetti.

Yeah, it's like both of them. Alliteration is—

I like both. I like both. And cupcake. Let's add cupcakes.

Clarity, confetti, confetti and cupcakes. There you go.

There's the 3 C's. You throw that out there. I am definitely— I definitely want to work for you. Clarity is to me being authentic, being honest, saying this is the— this is the truth. And hearing other people's stories and their experiences, I think, are life-changing. And then I think the confetti and understanding the positive I wanna be happy. And this, you know, I have my, both my kids are Gen Z, one's 18 and one's about to turn 22 and go into the workforce. And so I listen to their friends, I hear what they're saying, I hear what they want. And I think there's gonna be a real awakening when that generation, as that generation goes into the workforce, you know, and becomes a bigger part of the workforce is because what, what they expect and what they want. And if you're not going to give them positive support, because we've, you know, that's been a part of their lives, their whole, you know, their whole experience. And, and I tell my kids, I, and I, I say, look, if you're working for somebody that is not going to give you positive support, what, you know, the confetti, believe me, there's someone across the street that's going to give it to you. Why, why waste your time? Yeah. And so I think the positive support and, you know, the cupcake is really, you know, the, the, the recognition topping, the topping, the sprinkles on the cupcake.

It's even better, right, right, right. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not ready to talk about this yet, honestly. I, um, I have, you know, teens myself that are— one of them has already entered the workforce and has worked at a, you know, a couple places. Uh, what you said as far as the big, the big change that's coming, I'm not ready to talk about that yet. I, I know what it is, but I don't think I can, um, express it in a way that would be impactful enough right now for people to actually take action on it. But it, it— I cannot overestimate how important this shift is going to be. I know that whenever we have a new generation, the millennials and, you know, Gen X, Generation Z, there's always these changes that happen in the workplace because of different expectations and everything like that. But this particular generation now that's entering the workforce that you're talking about, your, your kids, my kids, there is a whole universe. It's, it's a very significant change. That's going to happen in every aspect of work. How they get a job, how they keep a job, how they get paid, the way they get— the way they, you know, how much they want to get paid. There's a huge change that's going to happen. And like I said, I'm not quite ready to talk about it yet. I think it's going to be the topic of my next book if I ever do write a book. Because the clash that I see is dramatic. There is a huge disconnect. Between what these teens want and what the work— the world of work has to offer. And they're basically— I think some of them are just going to decide not to work until they can find something that fits that, because it's such a wide difference. It's not an adjustment, it's, it's almost like two completely opposing cultures. Um, but yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to derail. I just think that it's huge what you said there as far as how they're going to expect workplace. Um, so let me talk a little bit about interviews. What is the fastest way to suck the energy out of an interview and just vacuum empty it?

That's a good question. Uh, I think a great interview is a— is you're making that connection, right? You're communicating And a great communicator— and I talk about communication often in my, in my keynotes— is making sure you give the right details at the right time. And if you give too much information to someone that doesn't want it, you're going to overwhelm them. So in an interview, if you give too much information to someone who isn't interested, you're going to overwhelm them.

There goes the energy. So how do you flip back on You got an under—

remember what we talked about being present in the moment? If you're in the moment in that interview, you know, this person just wants the top-level detail, the executive summary.

So you went too far, gave too much information. Yeah. And then, you know, you felt the energy drain out of the interview.

I think. Yeah, I think it's given the right amount of detail. Yeah, it's given the right amount of details at the right time. Some people need a little, some people need a lot. And if you're really present and connected in that interview, you're going to have a really great conversation and you're going to know who you're talking to. Because the way you interview this person should be different than the way you interview the next person, because they're going to be different people. And, and so that connection I think is important, um, uh, being— and I think it's also making sure that there's, um, there's an openness and authenticity. Authenticity. Authenticity.

Well, that's hard to do as well, man.

I'm having some problems with some words.

You know, people take one look at me and they just can't pronounce words anymore.

That's two. I never do that. I never do that. Just, I never do that.

It's my fault. I make people stutter all the time.

I never do that. I think it's because I haven't had lunch.

Yeah, that's probably it. That's probably it.

I think it's because I haven't had lunch.

What do you think about this? If candidate experience was a TV show, what would you call it? And I'll start. I think if Canada Experience was a TV show, I think it would be called Waiting Room: The Musical.

Waiting Room: The Musical. I think it should be called Wicked.

Wicked. Oh, Wicked. Nice. So we both went to song for some reason.

We did. Again, we have musical on our minds. That's funny.

On our minds. That's funny.

Or, or nope, here's my Mission Impossible.

That's even better.

Mission Impossible.

Mission Impossible. Get a job. Mission Impossible.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

So, a lot of, you know, a lot of burnt-out teams during high-pressure situations out there. And you've been helping companies bring the joy, bring the creativity, bring the fun into work in a way that's, you know, professional and appropriate. What advice do you have for TA leaders dealing with burnt-out teams? Because that's happening. That's very relevant right now. As I said, we just went through and are in some cases still going through massive shifting, you know, layoffs and entire teams being cut. And the next month they're being rehired or, you know, so there's just, there was this big shakeup and it's got a lot of people down. What, what's your advice for TA leaders to, I don't know, breathe some life back into, like, right now, today?

Yeah, I think one is just the easy way is just positive support. Every day when you go home from work, think about all the people that you had contact with on your team, partners, vendors, customers, whoever. Did you give the people that deserved it that positive support? Did you say thank you, I appreciate you? It's a gift. It's the best gift you can give anybody, and it barely takes any time. It doesn't take any money. And so, when you go home, you're going through all the people that you had contact with. So, tomorrow, because you forgot to give that positive support and appreciation, you need to reach out. I don't care, text, email, see them in the hall, write a letter. I don't care. They want to hear it. And again, that positive support saying, "Shelly, you were awesome," or "I appreciate how much work you put into that," or "Fantastic interview." Incredible report!" It fuels you up, right? And it just, it's a few words of appreciation and positive support. I think that is needed more than anything. The second thing is, again, we talked about creating opportunity for each other. When was the last time you said to your team, "What is it that's going to make you happy here? What opportunity do you need that's going to fulfill you and reward you?" It's not more money. We all want more money, that's a given, but that happiness only lasts to the next paycheck. What is that opportunity? Is it, do you want more training? Do you want the opportunity to go to a conference? Do you want a different role, a different responsibility? You're going to get the blueprint to engage and energize your team. And they're gonna tell you, and I promise you, it's gonna be easy for you to give them that opportunity. And what do you get back in return? You get a passionate, energized team member that's gonna help you reach your goals. It makes sense. Because again, if you don't give opportunity, positive support, they're out the door. They're gone.

Eventually, yeah.

Oh, they're gonna realize they're not happy. First, they're gonna turn into bye-bye people. I talk about that in my book.

Bye-bye people. Bye-bye people.

We all know bye-bye people.

See ya.

No, bye-bye people still work for you. They just don't care.

It's the silent quitter. It is the same. They don't care.

They don't care about the brand, the customer, the mission, the goal. Bye-bye. We all know bye-bye people. Just call customer service.

It's literally just the, just the job.

So we meet bye-bye people every day. Bye-bye people aren't doing a great job. They don't care. They're not passionate.

They don't want to do a great job.

They don't. And eventually those bye-bye people, they're going to realize they're not happy. They're not fulfilled, and then they're going to walk out the door. And all that resources that you spent recruiting that person is gone with them. And now I got to start over. Why not give that team member opportunity and positive support? That's what they desperately want. Ask them what do they need to be happy and fulfilled? And you're going to have a blueprint. You're going to have exactly what you need to create that energy and that engagement. And that's, that's exciting. It really is. And that positive support and opportunity will go a long way.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I just had a thought. Do you think joy can be a recruiting metric? Or is that going to be a little too weird on a dashboard? The joy meter.

I think, sure. I think, you know, happiness, you know, whether you call it happiness, joy, I mean, I want my team to be happy. Because a happy team member is gonna be a successful team member. They're gonna be passionate. They're gonna care. And why wouldn't I want every one of my team members to care and be passionate? And if I create the foundation for that happiness, if I create the foundation for that joy, then I've got an energized team member and we're gonna reach our goals. We're gonna find success. And the key is, The more passionate team members that I have, the more success I'm going to have. I'm not expecting every team member to be passionate.

Everybody's going to flip on, right? Like, right, right. And that's the same thing with candidate experience. It's not like, it's not like we're expecting to roll out the red carpet and make sure that everybody has a 5-star experience because that would be the change we're trying to make here is that it's going from from nobody even paying attention to the candidate experience to making it positive for the majority. And they're always— there's going to be exceptions, but we're not looking here for— this is not as mature as customer service where you're looking for that 5-star service every time. So as long as we're making strides in that direction and we're maybe just listening better and being more present, like you said, in the, in the whole process, We're providing a better candidate experience. So, I think better doesn't mean 5-star. That's like, you know, shooting for excellence. You're right. It's an evolution. So, to get from here to there, we got to go through better and better. Doesn't mean we're just gonna flip the switch on and all of a sudden, you know, 180.

Yeah, I think it's important also, don't underestimate the unique experience, right? The one, the experience that stands out is the unique, is when every— if you're recruiting someone and that person is being recruited with other many different companies, you want to be unique, you want to be different, because everybody else is going to run together. And so what's going to be— what's going to hit home, what's going to be top of mind, what's going to really, uh, move the meter is that unique experience. And I think it's important that happiness and joy, I think, is a part of that. Creating that energy is important. And making sure that they understand that that opportunity and positive support is there and is a key part of the culture. And respect and training is a key part of the culture.

So you just have to start somewhere. I mean, I think, like I said, my point was you can't just go from here to there. In one giant leap. So I'm looking for something I can take back to my people and, and say what, you know, what's one, one silly thing— by that I mean, you know, fun thing— that a team can do today to start resetting expectations and, and work towards that? Because like I said, I don't, I don't think that we're going to be able to make that giant leap After everything that's been going through, you know, from COVID post-COVID, the presidential race, I mean, it's going to be hard. It's going to be a hard pill to swallow to just all of a sudden go from nothing to— from zero to hero. I like to say zero to hero, right? So on our way there, what— give us some— something silly, something fun that we can do to start resetting the vibe without a budget and without getting in trouble with HR, right?

That's, you know, I think it's taking one little step at a time and not thinking that you have to do everything today.

But like, what, give me a step.

I think one step is in the, in the recruitment process is, I think, you know, we mentioned that, that video, that authentic video, you know, of— I think that right there is going around. Well, you know, I— another example of that, I was at another event And they had done— and again, just on an iPhone, we're not talking huge budget videos.

No, no.

Right.

Yeah, right.

Anybody can record on an iPhone. And they went around and they did this for managers and they had a person on their team. Who inspires you? And then in 60 seconds, they would tell a story about their manager. That inspired them. And I would say when they showed those videos, the majority created emotion, sadness, laughter, inspiration. And, and I, and I, and that was another moment where I said to the CEO, I go, you need to post those. Those are recruitment videos. And we don't, we don't post those.

No, there's a fear of— we, we have this fear that we have to filter things.

And that is real and honest.

Yeah. And these, the new generation, what we were talking about earlier, they're not expecting, in fact, they don't like produced videos.

Yeah.

They prefer the real thing that they would rather see something that's real, even though we know that when we're on camera and we're being recorded, we are being a little fake because we're putting on a show. They would rather have that than something that's got big budget, you know, movie lighting and sound and, you know, gaffers. Yeah, they just, they don't feel like that's so— I get what you're saying.

But that, that video is so— who inspires? And you could do it manager, you can interview the manager. Who inspired— what team member inspires you? And the team member that inspires the manager. I saw it, it was just for, you know, the team member and the, the manager that inspired them. You know, those true, simple, authentic stories. I think that right there, yeah, would do more for recruitment than anything else.

That would be the magic one. So I recently had, um, a friend from a company called Sparkstart, Marie Hannigan. She started this company and it is a video platform for— it started out as specifically for job postings where you would have real footage of the hiring manager talking about a day in the job as a recruitment video. And now they've evolved to be more along the lines of the jobs and other content. And what you're talking about here is perfect fit for what they do, which is a day in the life kind of stuff. You know, why did you take the job? Why are you motivated to, you know, those kinds of things. I think that's a really good takeaway. Not every, what's nice about the platform, Joel, is that it makes it super easy. You just send a link. You don't have to have an account. You don't have to log in. You just send a link. The manager, that's the person that's gonna do the video. They record themselves and it goes back into an approval queue and you can approve it. But it's still, it's still legitimate raw interview and there's control over, you're not gonna let something out that might be inadvertently leaking company secrets, for example. Right. But then it goes into a library and can be repurposed multiple times in different ways. And I think it's, I think that's catching on. I mean, she's definitely onto something with that.

What's the answer? And I think it's also finding opportunities to show what your work culture stands for. You know, I get the chance to go to some of these events and, and see the passion for the brand, the energy for the brand, and taking opportunities and thinking about, OK, we're together in this leadership event. Can we create some content that's going to help our recruitment, because this right here encapsulates who you are and what you do and how much respect that you have for everybody that works for the company and how much fun you have for everyone that works with the company. And it's a great opportunity. I don't see a lot of companies taking that. You know, they kind of keep those events on the, you know, very low key. Yeah, they don't really promote And, and that is when we're all together and really highlighting some really incredible aspects of the company and the brand and the awards program as well. Hearing what some of these people have done and what they believe in, in the story, and their stories of success are just absolutely stunning. And we need to take advantage of this and put people's stories and record them and put that as part of the recruitment.

It should be part of the, yeah. I mean, you can link to it from, put it on your Instagram. And we had a comment, I don't know if you saw that, from a listener here. And it's not just the job previews, but also the experience of, you know, I like to say, one of the questions that I teach recruiters to ask is, why did you accept the job? After they've— after somebody has been hired, um, and they are, you know, in touch with a candidate, sometimes through onboarding and everything, is what, what, what made you accept the job? Like, what was it that sort of put you over the, the threshold? So it's a good question to ask, but as you were explaining, um, your, your point of view, it occurred to me that I think it might be better to ask, why are you still here? Yeah, because when you just accepted the job, even if it's 30, 60, 90 days, you know, even at 90 days, it's still the honeymoon phase, or the, you know, you don't really— if you've been there for a year or two, then you probably know what some of the downsides are by then, right? And so, why do you still— why are you still here? Might be a good question. Yeah, I'm talking about for the video interviews, right? Like, just go around asking, "Hey, you've been here for 5 years? Yeah, great. Why are you still here? What's keeping you here?" Yeah.

And, you know, it's funny is that I get to see so many different work cultures. I've done like 2,500 events, all different types of industries, all different types of companies. And so you really get to see the culture, you know, in the event, and you get to see, you hear leadership, and, and, but you meet so many team members from different areas of the company. And it's really, I know a little bit about a lot of industries, Shelley. I know just, just enough to get in trouble in a lot of industries. And, you know, I think they really need to take advantage of, you know, kind of opening the door, pulling back the curtain of who they are and what they do, and hearing from real people. And I think that would go a long way. And I'm also a big proponent of playing games. I think putting a game in the situation is important, I think, in the process, because when I play improv games, that's your true self. I see people, you know, you see the micromanagers, you see who's going to be the early adopters, you see who the creative people are, you see that the people that are going to be supportive and helpful. You're going to see who gets frustrated real easy. You, you, you see a lot. You see people in their true selves.

X-ray.

Yeah.

That's awesome. Oh man. Well, uh, Joel, it's been great. I promised you I wouldn't keep you more than an hour and we're running up too close to that time. And I always like to ask people and my guests on the show, I always like to ask them, 2 questions. The first of those questions— wanted to give you a couple of minutes to, you know, those— the first of those questions is, who should be our next guest?

Who should be your next? I gotta, uh, you need a, you need a, um, you need a referral.

I mean, I'm not gonna— they're not— they may not necessarily accept, but I would definitely, you know, reach out like I did with you and invite them. And but who do you think would be a good person that, you know, you— that would be a good guest on the show. Like, someone— it doesn't have to be a referral. If you drop a name, I'll go find them and, you know, reach out. And sure, all I can do is invite them, right?

Right. Uh, well, you know, you mentioned joy, and I have a great speaker friend. His name's Brian Biro, and, uh, he talks about joy and, and that spark. And I think that's really— he's, he's, he's, uh— I'm going to recommend Brian.

Spell that last name.

B-R-I-R-O. You're welcome, Brian, if you're watching this.

Probably not. Yeah. And then the second question is, what is one thing that you feel everybody should be thinking about? Now, I'm not asking for a thought or a thought leadership but more like a question to ask ourselves. So what should we be asking ourselves over the weekend? A lot of folks will actually play this back, you know, after hours. So give us a question that we can ask ourselves. I think it could be about any of the things we talked about.

Yeah. Am I happy?

Am I happy? Oh my God.

I think that would be number one. I mean, that to me is I think the most important thing when we talk about work.

Can we give it some rails though? Like, am I happy at work or?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not, I'm not doing any family therapy here.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like, we're actually way off the deep end.

So at work, yeah, sometimes my wife says, this is not what you say in the keynote. And I go, my messages are purely for the work life environment.

That's right.

Not about what's happening in your home life or anything else.

So to be clear, in the work-life environment, are you happy?

I am only an expert at work.

I am not an expert at home. All right.

So, yeah, am I happy? What do I need to be fulfilled?

And yeah, and if the answer is maybe not, then how do I— Let's— What do I—

Let's figure it out. And, you know, I think the next time you have a great day at work, make a list. What, what was— What happened that day that made made it great? What did somebody say? What did you do? What happened? Um, I like that.

Instead of a list of to-do items— well, you can have that too— yeah, but have a list of ta-da items. Yes, you have your to-do list and your ta-da list.

Yeah, what, what made this day so awesome? And that's a really— you have a really good blueprint of what—

if you ever create an app called Ta-Da List— yeah, I want, I want royalties.

Yeah, we're gonna make it to that list. And what now? You have a blueprint of what you need to be happy, and you have to fight for it, demand it, ask for it, because that's what you need to be happy and fulfilled at work. And it doesn't matter what your job is. You should be happy and fulfilled wherever you are. I talk about my, my first job in my book, which I worked at a movie theater cleaning up people's trash and cleaning the popcorn machine. And I found a way to be happy and passionate because it's a choice. It's always your choice no matter what the situation is. Is picking up people's trash fun? No, but it's my choice that I'm going to have fun while I pick up that trash. Is cleaning the popcorn machine fun? No, but I'm going to make that— it's my choice to have fun and at that job, clean the popcorn machine. It's my choice. It's always my choice. And when you make that choice, it's very powerful and you have control because you set the attitude, you set your tone, you set your energy because you're choosing how you react to the situation. You're choosing how you react to the change. And that's really what I share in my keynotes with a lot of fun and energy. And of course, in my book, I'm going to bring that. We need a close-up of the book, shall we? Here's a close-up. It's beautiful. It's brand new. Make the Right Choice, Lead with Passion, Elevate Your Team, and Unleash the Fun at Work. Available Amazon, Barnes Noble, and wherever you buy books.

Yeah, isn't writing a book like just such a huge—

it's like birthing a baby.

Yes.

But I don't know anything about that because I've never birthed a baby.

I've heard people that are, you know, women speakers as well. Yeah, it is like creation, and it's— there's a lot more to it. I love it when people like, you can write a book with ChatGPT. Yeah, you good, but that's a pamphlet. Yeah, that's not a book.

It is. It's a piece of you. It really is. And you've created a— you've taken a piece of you and put it in, in a book. And, and I'm, you know, I'm very proud of it. I love it. It's been getting a lot of great, uh, reviews.

And well, congratulations.

Yeah, yeah. But it is definitely an undertaking for sure.

Yeah, yeah. I, I tried to calculate how many hours it took and Yeah, like, yeah, you hear like authors like Stephen King, you know, they, you know, they—

he churns out books constantly, you know, and he's, he's writing a certain amount each day. And it's, it's just incredible when you hear that, you know, how much they write and, uh, um, and what they do, because it's, it's amazing. Because I know what it took just to write this one.

Yeah, and it wasn't ChatGPT that wrote it.

No, I didn't. I haven't— never, never used ChatGPT. It was all me.

Well, thanks, Joel. Thanks for being on the show and being so kind to accept. I know you're, you know, in-demand speaker. So normally your speaker fee is like, what, $50 grand for an hour? So I appreciate you being on the show here.

I don't think that's the correct number, but I appreciate that, Shelly. That is not the correct number for those interested in—

if you're interested, you need to talk to Joel. And by the way, if you want to talk to Joel, it's going to be really hard to find him. Um, but I'll give you a hint.

Okay, joseph.com. Huge ta-da, shall we?

Huge ta-da! I'm gonna make a ta-da list now. Yeah, and for your ta-da list, Mike Bruni is going to be our special guest next week. Mike Bruni has worked with a lot of the clandestine services and has a lot of insight on recruiting for clearance jobs and government roles, so I'm really looking forward to what he has to say. So hopefully we'll see you back here next Friday. Until then, be kind to yourselves, and ta-da!