Live with Mary Brogan, Global Head of Talent Sourcing, Marsh McClennan on Shally's Alley

Good afternoon and happy Friday. It's 1 PM and we are live on Shelly's Alley. My special guest today is Mary Brogan. Am I saying that correctly, Brogan?

You are saying that correctly.

Not Brogan or— okay. All right, cool. Mary is— it's a very special day for Mary today in a couple of ways. You know, we go way back. Mary has actually had a little bit more experience in the industry than I have. So she's got me beat by a couple of years, and she's had experience leading sourcing teams, building and leading sourcing teams at companies like Northrop Grumman, ADP, Fidelity. Most recently, Mary was the global head of talent sourcing for Marsh McLennan, and today is her last day. We didn't know this when we scheduled the program, but it just happened to be today is actually basically Mary's last day at Marsh because she is going to a brand new role as the leader of global talent sourcing for Intuitive Surgical, working with Brad Cook. And there she will be, I guess, leading and building. Are you building or just coming into a team that exists or building a new one?

So I think a little bit of both, actually. They have an existing sourcing team. And sourcers embedded within the different functions within talent acquisition. So I think we have a really unique opportunity to find those synergies, bring some of those groups together, but also appreciate the direction the organization is going and bring some more talent into the company. So I'll be looking for you.

Right. Awesome. So I got to ask, it's as, as a, as a TA pro, I mean, you, you know, you're, you're You're a veteran in the industry. So knowing kind of everything that happens behind the scenes, what should happen, what shouldn't happen. Recently, you embarked on a job search. How was that? I mean, you kind of, it's kind of like a chef going to a restaurant. You know how the hamburger got made, but Sometimes you want to just not be, you want to not be the chef. You want to sit down and, you know, and eat a meal. So you're a TA pro that knows all this stuff that's going on, all the ins and outs of building these TA functions, and yet you find yourself on the other side of the table as a candidate. What was that like?

You know, I think it's, it's really a great experience. And, um, it, you know, it was, it gave me an opportunity to step back from that TA role in terms of managing the day-to-day and the minutia and, and, you know, sort of helping organizations sort of move in the direction they need to go and, and really empathize again, you know, with the candidate and the candidate experience. And I would say that, you know, while I had an opportunity to, to interview with, with a couple of different organizations, there were things that the companies did really, really well. I would say some of the marketing material, the information, the candidate documentation around how to effectively interview, some of the information just about their benefits and how they position the culture and the organization and what it's like to work there was exceptional. So it really gave you a really great understanding or appreciation of what it would be like to work there. But I would say that I think we still, we're still handcuffed by, you know, by that process of including everybody in the interview. And so I would say that there was probably, you know, a lot of interviews, maybe, maybe more than, than one would More than you expected?

More than you would like?

Yeah, I think more than I expected. Well, and maybe even if I take myself out of the equation and I think about it, right, as a TA professional, I would say that, you know, during that time I could have lost a candidate, right? Because there were so many conversations taking place. So I think as, you know, as TA professionals, we need to consider that gentle balance between What's the right number of individuals in the organization that we need to have as part of the process, right? So there's, you know, inclusive, right? And we have a good perspective, but we also balance the experience for the candidate. And so I do think it's a top priority for a lot of organizations to make sure that they have a good structured interview, but it's streamlined and it's completed in a timely manner.

I got, I gotta ask this question. Did you behave during the process, or did you kind of, knowing, knowing what you know, did you sort of sometimes take the, you know, step out of the, of the carousel and kind of do things a little differently? Did you stay in the line?

I did stay in the lines. I think that, um, I had really good interviewers, so I think most of, of the folks that I had a chance to meet with came in in a really open, candid, authentic way, and they asked really good questions. So, and there was, surprisingly enough, there wasn't a lot of redundancy. So I would say from that perspective, you know, I am who I am. I've been doing this for 30 years. So at this stage in my career, you know, I, I will, will share with you my philosophy, my perspective, my vision, and You know, that's, that's kind of who I am. So I think it's really important that, you know, you still, you still, you know, you still share with an organization what value you bring, but you have to share who you are. And otherwise, you know, you're not going to be successful when you, when you get into that opportunity.

So yeah, okay. I get that. That makes sense. And so, One last question about that, and then I'll leave it alone. Did you learn anything new having now been on the— what are you going to bring to your new job now that you've been on the other side of the table? Or if anything, I mean, maybe you already knew it. It's not something new. So maybe the question is, did you discover anything new? If so, what would you bring? Or did you pretty much already know?

I think— I think some of the things I discovered were just really how different organizations structure that interview process, how they court, right, a candidate, and how they, how they go about balancing the information gathering during that interview, right? You know, can— is this the right person for the job with how do I continue to try to sell that person? And I would say that some companies did it better than others. And I do think it's really important that, that we make sure that as talent acquisition professionals, that we are positioning managers and anyone in that interview process to always be, to always be selling. Because at times there wasn't that experience. And I do think it's really important to make sure that while we want to make sure that we gain the right understanding of, can this person be successful in the role? Are they going to add value? I think you also need to make sure that until you decide that, you know, how do we continue to go about and, and make sure that we're positioning the organization and this, in this opportunity in an enticing way, and that we're, that we continue, we continue to sell. I will say the other thing that I, that was a great reminder for me at this stage is we've got to communicate. You know, it's so incredibly important to communicate to a candidate along the way, we really have to build in those touchpoints throughout the process and make sure that we're keeping people apprised of what's going on. Because in all honesty, right, we're all human. And we want to know that, you know, that things are, that things are moving along. And, and, you know, we want to understand what the next step is one way or the other. So keeping that communication, communication Yeah, so important.

Yeah, it's not just about us and our jobs that we have to fill. We really need to consider that other side. Yeah, we've just gotten into a bad habit of not telling candidates, I think, because of the risk inherent in being transparent. But I think that may be changing now that transparency is almost required in this kind of remote environment. You can't force— supervise people by being in the same room with them. Anymore. So you've got to have transparency and trust. So maybe that'll change too.

Yeah. And I do think it's— and again, it's not only about are you the right fit for the organization, but it's also about, hey, here's the next step. So let's just lay out, you know, what you should expect next and what the real— you know, what the realistic timing is, you know, for us to kind of get that next interview scheduled or when we're going to make a hiring decision. You know, I can, you know, sometimes it feels soul-crushing. You gotta sit there and you wait, you know, and you're sort of in a waiting game. And it's hard, you know, it's hard to sort of think one way or the other. And so yeah, so just, just, just out of courtesy, keeping people apprised of where they are, what's going on. And you know what, yet the honesty and the candor is really important. You know what, we selected somebody else, and here's why.

Right. Yeah. And they, you know, they were more qualified in this area and that's it. You don't have to say you're not qualified or you're not, you know, but you can, you can say, okay, we made a decision and the decision was leaning on this. And if they don't, if the candidate doesn't appreciate that, then, you know, that's a lesson for the candidate, right? I mean, I, for me, I would rather know if you, if you were going to reject me and you said, hey, Shelly, you know, we decided to go with someone else that had, you know, 5 more years of experience or that had more experience in this area. Than you. Okay, I get that. That was important, right? I'm not going to be— I'm not going to sit there and try to defend at the last minute. But wait, can you reconsider it? No, it's— that's not mature. So hopefully candidates will learn how to do that. Yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah, we're so used to not communicating. So yeah, all right, well, we'll leave that alone because I think, uh, we definitely learned a little bit here about that. Let me ask you something else I wanted to talk about. What do you feel in our job as a global sourcing, talent sourcing leader, and don't limit it to just sourcing, recruiting in general, but specifically I'd like to know a little bit about the sourcing side. What processes should we be automating and what processes should we not be automating? Kind of the, you know, do's and don'ts.

I, you know, I do believe, and this is something we've done certainly, you know, at Marsh McLennan, and I know is something that many organizations are doing, is, you know, it is really automating the process to search more effectively, right? So I think that there's numerous tools out there that allow us to make sure that we are finding the right talent, we're diversifying the talent. I think that's a big topic right now is making sure that we're really attracting.

Including more diverse. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Sourcing more effectively and also broadening our slate.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there is some really good technology out there. You could spend days evaluating different platforms that will help you do that. I think where you can, if you have the budget to do it, You know, I do think that there are some really good tools out there that would help you really expand on the search side.

Okay, but you said search more effectively. When you said search more effectively, what does that mean? Are you saying, um, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when you say more effectively, does that mean, um, more accurate?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, well, I think there's a couple things. I think one was where I was sort of headed was make, again, broadening your pool, right? So I think that's, that's the first thing, and leveraging technology there. But then also certainly making sure that there's, there's a lot of subject matter experts out there, probably people, again, I know people 10 times smarter than I am, that have put different tools together that also allow you to hone in and really have a crisper search string, or go out and look at you know, different approaches to, you know, finding talent. So I think it's twofold, really. One is really expanding that net.

Yeah, and making sure you're using your time effectively, you know, as opposed to, you know, just trying to boil the ocean or capture all the candidates and then— Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what should we not be automating? What's the opposite that we're trying to automate that we shouldn't be? Ought not to be?

I don't think you can ever replace the one-on-one conversation. So I know different organizations maybe manage sourcing differently, but from my perspective and the way that I've run my teams, it's not only about having that person who has the capability to find the talent, but also to assess them, have a conversation, engage with them, and understand their skills and expertise. And I don't think I don't think you can automate that one-on-one connection and having that conversation and the expertise that comes with a sourcer who really knows and understands their subject matter expertise and their ability to really understand and gain what you can bring to the organization. So those personal connections and conversations, in my opinion, Yeah, are really, really something you can't automate. And I know there's a lot of tools out there. There's one-way hiring, you know, hiring video tools. And, you know, there's other tools. And I'm not suggesting you don't use, you know, assessments and so on and so forth. But I do think that I was going to make that distinction.

Yeah, assessment is— yeah, an assessment is still part of the process in some cases and can be useful in many different ways. You're not saying that the assessment has to be done by a one-on-one conversation. You're just saying that the conversation that happens when you're, you know, introducing the opportunity to somebody and you know the culture of your company and all that, that's the one that you're saying shouldn't be automated. I think the chatbots that are out there are automating some of the preliminary questions that usually people ask that essentially think about it, you know, back in the day when we were on the phone and recruiting candidates, we would get asked the same 3 or 4 questions over and over and over. Now there's websites and you can get those questions answered by a lot of places. So the chatbots are sort of doing that of like, hey, yeah, sure, we can tell you a little bit about this. But it's not— that's not a conversation. That's just information. So I get what you're saying.

Yeah, and I think there's things that come out of those conversations, even if it's— sometimes it's an inflection, right, in what somebody says, or sometimes it's what they don't say. And that's one of those things that you can't get from a chatbot. Listen, I use it, we use it here at Marsh McLennan. It's really helpful, right? It helps direct the candidate often, you know, into the right direction and having that, that conversation with the right person on our internal team. But, you know, there are a lot of things that you get, you know, get, or like I said, or something maybe you don't hear from a conversation that really helps you drill down a little deeper, gain a little bit more understanding, and it really formulates the questions and the directions that that conversation goes.

Right. And you can actually do a little bit of pre-selling. And, you know, you can also do a little bit of overcoming some earlier objectives— objections. I meant to say objections that the candidate might have based on that. What did they not say? Did they hesitate? Okay, well, let me tell you a little bit more about that. I totally get it. Totally get it.

Yeah. And I think, you know, listen, at the end of the day, most people want to work with good, smart, you know, talented individuals. And so, you know, we're on the front line of that, right? So we're, we're, you know, a chatbot again, right, is efficient. But, you know, having that conversation and making that connection and, and, you know, the recruiter is the— or the sourcer is the first person that you're going to interact with. It sets a tone. And so it's really important. Yeah, absolutely.

It does. Absolutely. Yeah. When I was on the front lines, I remember candidates that would, you know, 6 months after they've been hired and everything would still come and find me, even though I wasn't their recruiter. I was the one that brought them in and even alerted them to this opportunity that didn't even know existed. And they're really happy that they're there. And it happened because I found them because this opportunity wasn't something they knew about. And that you're right. That was one of the things that would say, yeah, it was really, I'm here because of you, like not not trying to, you know, say that, you know, I did, but I'm here because you told me about this opportunity and you told me the things that I needed to hear, and that's why I went, you know, became interested. So absolutely critical, I totally agree. So talking about automation, obviously talking about technology, kind of in the same, the same realm, what would you say? I'm sure you've heard a lot of pitches, and like you said, there's a lot of technology. What would you say is the biggest lie about recruiting technology that points people in the wrong direction, that points leaders like us away from what's important because we get distracted by this lie? What would you say is the biggest lie about it, about recruiting technology?

That's a great question. You might have stumped me on that one.

Because there's so many? Yeah, well, I don't know if there's so many.

I think So I think that, I think the, the statement of we can do it all. So I, you know, I've, I've talked to a number of vendors that I think have, have started in one, in one area, right? And they've sort of established, established a certain capability, right, as their wheelhouse, and then over time, right, they've expanded it. So they've started maybe in contact management, and then they've gone to to artificial intelligence, and then they've expanded it to scheduling, and now they're doing texting. And, you know, I think the reality of the situation is, is that I don't— haven't seen a platform that does all of them.

Well, it really does. Yeah, that is a big fallacy. And I think that not all of it, it's just— it's— yeah. And it's also not necessary, because I gotta say, not only is that a really big lie, it's also something that I think if it were true, wouldn't be good either. Like, if I found a vendor that really could do everything, it doesn't help sell me on the idea because I don't need everything. So if I'm hiring this company, if I'm bringing on this technology to do everything, then there's a lot of focus paid on things that I'm not— that I'm paying for that I don't need.

Right, right.

Maybe in my organization, you know, every job is different, every company is different. Sometimes you need job advertising distribution. Sometimes job advertising distribution doesn't really make any sense. I've spoken to the top companies in that, you know, programmatic advertising space, and I was really impressed. I can't drop any names because this is supposed to be impartial, but I was really impressed with this one company that said, you know, we're just not a good fit for you. What you're looking for, you know, we're, we're this, this is, we're not a fit for this. You need something that's more programmatic on the social side, and, you know, you're spending just a dollar here or there with us. It's, you know, and I was like, wow, that's really cool. And if the platform came with it, they would try to, you know, like, here, go use it. No, I don't need it. I'm not going to use it. So there's that. Then there's, okay, we also do screening, we also do scheduling. Well, what if I have coordinators and I don't need scheduling, or I don't want scheduling because I have a coordinator team? So now I've got scheduling that I'm paying for, and what are you spending your time and budget on developing? Which feature? And are you going to be distracted, you know, generating the next feature, or are you actually improving the features that you have? So the jack of all trades thing, I don't know, it's— to me it's not attractive, but that's a really good one. It shouldn't be, but they say it is because they want you to, you know, look at their solution as a a cheaper alternative because you save money on all the other ones, I think. I don't know why else they do it.

Yeah. And it's interesting because to your point, I think that they generally grow up, right? So these companies emerge as a result of having a really strong capability in one area. And then as they expand, that capability you might have purchased them for, starts to decline because they're so busy trying to—

because they abandoned it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing is, is that, you know, what I've seen is, is, you know, whether it's our HR executives or otherwise, you know, they, they love the concept of a single platform. Of course, so does, you know, so does HRIS, right? And, and the reality is, is that, you know, really going with a vendor that's best in class, while it may be more complicated at times, You know, go after the functionality and the capability you really need, right? And you just mentioned it a minute ago, don't pay for something you don't need.

You don't need.

Yeah. And make sure that, that whatever you bring in is really going to lend to your, your organizational success. And the keys, of course, are monitor it, measure it, you know, and, and make sure that you push back on your vendors. You know, I think I've had some very successful vendor relationships because We've had, you know, really honest and candid conversations around what the needs are for our organization. And I think that's what you have to do. You have to look out for the best interest of your organization, what the needs are, and make sure that you really partner with those vendors and at times push back, you know, to make sure that your agenda is being met.

Agree, because it's not— it's going to cost you more money to try to fit something in that doesn't need to be fitted or you'll end up distracting. It's not just cost, it could also be lost opportunity by distraction. And you don't have to use the technology because it's there. I don't know if you remember this from our conversation many, many years ago, but I'm a returned Peace Corps volunteer. I was in the Peace Corps. One of the things that they teach you, they spend a lot of time in the Peace Corps for the first 3 months preparing you for your 2-year service because it's 2 years of you're on your own. I mean, your 2-year, you know, some of us— I was in an extremely remote area that was 14 hours by truck from the nearest electrical, you know, outlet or whatever. So they prepare you a lot for, for that kind of, you know, environment. And one of the biggest emphasis during that 3-month period, aside from you know, the health and all these other things that are absolutely, you know, like survival-specific. But one of the biggest emphasis that are, that are about your job as a volunteer that are not survival-specific is what they call appropriate technology. And that's something that I carry forward ever since then. It was a long time ago, but I still remember that they— just to give you an example, they say if you're in the middle of the rainforest and you don't have electricity It doesn't make sense to try to build something to generate electricity. Can you somehow— can you do what you need to do without electricity? Like, for example, we didn't have electricity back in the day. If you need to grind corn, right, into flour, you don't need electricity. You could create a paddle wheel that turns a stone. So, you know, and that's what they're saying. It's appropriate technology. It's easier for them in the middle of the rainforest to maintain a paddle wheel that can be fixed with nails and a hammer. It's cheaper. It's more, you know, more effective for them, right? They don't need the volume that you need from an electric mill, and that's going to create pollution. It's going to create all these other— so you don't really need it. So it's what do you actually need and solve for that. People get distracted with the, the, oh, wouldn't it be great to have this, you know, 5,000 horsepower It can grind wheat and sorghum. Well, you don't even grow sorghum here, so what do you need that for, right? But it grows, but it can do that, and it's automatic, and it works on a timer. Do you really need a timer? We don't have daylight savings here. So, you know, stuff like that. I think that's a huge miss on the part of decision makers that are looking at it as, oh, we can do everything. And here's another thing I was going to say, Mary. Think about this, when you buy, you know, office software, people buy Microsoft, they buy a Microsoft server, they buy the email solutions, they buy Azure, all this stuff, but they still buy security from somebody else. They still buy, you know, even Microsoft doesn't make everything for your office. So, you know.

I think sometimes we get caught up by the shiny penny, you know, it's something new, we don't have it, is it really going to be a game changer? And so, you know, I think doing the due diligence, having the conversations, and really thinking about in practicality, how is that going to work in our process, right? Who's going to use it? What are the use cases? And what value does it bring? And if you can't answer those questions, then it's likely something you don't need at this point in time, because organizationally, you're just not at that maturity stage. So it doesn't mean you can't look at it down the road, but I think you have to be really honest with where you are in regards to the maturity of your sourcing function, your recruiting, recruiters, your recruiting capability, and decide whether or not, you know, you're really going to need it. Because I've seen people buy things and then nobody uses them.

And they just sit there. It sits there.

Yep.

Or even worse, I hate to say it, but if it sits there, it's kind of like, oh, I guess we didn't really need it. You can stop buying it. But what I've seen that's even worse is they're forcing people to use it. So now not only is it something that they don't want to use, but they're being forced to use, which means they're doing something that they don't really need to do, and they're being forced to do that. And it's like, oh, now you're required to do this, and you're measured by how you do this, but it doesn't produce anything because they're not using it because it doesn't work, or it doesn't work for them. It might work for other people, but it doesn't work for them in that environment, you know? Yeah, that's a very good point.

It's not always a one-size-fits-all type of approach, and so that's why you really have to figure out what are you going to use it for, who's going to use it, and how do we really maximize it.

I'll add one more to that because I like those questions, but I'll also add how long can we wait before it's no longer a competitive advantage?

I like that question, right?

So if, if we wait a little bit and adopt it in 6 months, is it still going to be competitive? Or if we wait 6 months, are we going to get like You know, left behind? Are people— are our competitors going to blow right past us? And if the answer is they're going to blow right past us, okay, then you got to get on it. But if the answer is, yeah, most of your competitors aren't even using it, so 6 months from now or a year from now, you'll still be an early adopter, you'll say, right, then maybe you can wait, right? No, wait for it to mature a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely.

What about— let's take the crystal ball out. What does Mary Brogan see in the horizon that's going to be a disruptive technology? Or solution and have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be a technology, a disruptive— what is going to disrupt our space in the next, I don't know, year?

Let's see, that's a great— I think that's a— it's a, it's a, it's a great question. I mean, there's been so much technology emerging, um, but a lot of the same stuff. Yeah, yeah, a lot of it all. Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, I think we've kind of gone from a lot of startup organizations to doing, again, with a specialization in one area or the other. And then over time, sort of again, that emergence of, okay, now we're going to expand the scope of what we can do or what we are doing, right? And to sort of be this one platform that does everything and we're going to do everything for you. It's a really good question. I mean, I think that You know, I think things that are going to— I think technology that allows us again to make those connections with candidates. I mean, obviously everybody or most organizations are using texting today, but I think that we need to, you know, we need to look at again technologies or capabilities that are going to continue to allow us to meet people where they are, but also I think, you know, understand, continue to understand what's important to people. I mean, there's so many, there's so many different sites out there. I don't know, I've jumped onto it. I must admit, I haven't really been doing much on it, onto Polywork, which is a whole different kind of dynamic. You know, if you haven't, if you haven't been out there, it's kind of an interesting, it's kind of an interesting site. That's one, you know, we've seen, we've seen different things sort of come and go, you know, sort of are coming and going around. Gathering people together and coming together, you know, and making those connections. So I think we're going to continue to focus on the social. You know, I think there's going to be again more evolving social platforms that will allow us to make greater connections with candidates. And I think we just have to be thoughtful around those. What are our presence on them? I mean, obviously, A lot of companies are out there using Instagram and Twitter and Snapchat and so on and so forth. But I think you're going to see more and more new and emerging platforms that will try to cater to people in different ways, connecting with them in different ways. And I think that's going to be a mechanism for us to try to understand who's out there and then understand better what's important to those folks.

Yeah, I think the key there— I just want to attach to something that you said, meet people where they are. I think that's the key. You know, there was a lot of social media, I don't know, disruption going on with all the different platforms, and it's starting to slow down. There's not as many new platforms. What we're seeing now are sort of new media. It's still For example, Clubhouse and Twitter kind of jumped on and said, "All right, now we got Twitter Spaces." So there's this need that wasn't satisfied for just plain old audio conversations where group chat, there wasn't public group chats, it wasn't there. So it was a niche that didn't really exist that got covered, but it's not, we're not, there's not like a new social network popping up every 10 minutes. So what'll happen is there'll be a kind of technology or a type type of social network that doesn't exist yet. But what I like about what you're saying is that meeting people where they are reminds me a lot of something that I do when I teach recruiters about, you know, find, find your tribe, find the group, the talent. Where, where does the talent that you want to recruit go when they go online? Where do they hang out? Right. Find out where that is and go there. So you're saying the same thing in terms of social media and recruiting technology, that makes sense to me because I'm noticing a huge decline in participation in the mainstream ones like LinkedIn and Facebook. You know, Twitter is all over the place, so that's, that's a tough one because there's people that use it for news, there's people use it to communicate, there's people use it for shopping, there's all kinds of different things. But I'm definitely noticing a reduced participation in some of these, and I'm noticing an increased participation in social networks that I want to say meet people where they are, but that's not what I'm trying to say, that match our human proclivities, you know. Some of us are visual, some of us are auditory, some of us, right? So if you're more visual, you're on Pinterest. If you're more auditory, you're on Clubhouse. And it matches our— it matches how we're more comfortable. Not everybody wants to be on video.

No, and, and, and I, and I agree wholeheartedly. And I think that, you know, when obviously when Clubhouse started, you know, kind of jumped on and it gave you a chance to sort of listen and you, you know, you could multitask and do different things and right, have those conversations. And so I would agree with you. I think, again, it's so cliché right now, but the pandemic has really changed the way that people think about their social interactions, how they look for a job, what's important in a job, what they want to do next, who they want to interact with. And so I think we just have to be reacting to those things. And I think we have to understand that the talent we're looking for, what's going to be important to them. I think more so than ever, really understanding priorities and needs, you know, of our, of those talent pools is really going to be important. And again, you know, it's not a one-size-fits-all. So you're going to have to adjust and you're going to have to be a little more chameleon-like, I think. You know, how do we, how do we sort of flex and bend and do things in a way that are going to be appealing to the person I'm trying to bring in? Because I may not want to be on Zoom 8 hours a day, or I may just want to have to pick up the phone, or I may just want to talk to you through a Slack channel or whatever that may be. Yeah. And that's going to be okay. But how do we make those connections and how do we understand what's important? So I think as, as sorcerers, You know, that's going to be part of not only finding the person with the right skills, but understanding what's important to them. And how do we make that connection with them so that they understand we understand them, and we want them to be part of our, our organization, and we respect them for how they work, you know, what they want to do, and the kind of organization that they want to be part of.

I'm typing that. Oh yeah, um, I like that a lot. I'm gonna— that's— I'm thinking about— my gears are going. Um, this is what I look like when I'm thinking. I had one other question that— we're a little bit over time, but do you mind one more? Sure, this is the last one, I promise. And what I wanted to ask is, what is the most important thing a recruiter does? Or a sourcer, or, you know, what is the most important thing a recruiter slash, you know, TA, a talent advisor, whatever, you know, whatever job title you have, but what is the most important thing that we do?

It's, you know, again, I know I've said it a couple of times, so I'm not trying to dodge it, but I really do believe this. I think it's making the connection with, with the person that we're trying to, we're trying to attract into the organization. I think it's Taking the time to listen. Listening is an undervalued skill. You've got to listen and understand what's a priority to that person. You really need to digest it. And then you need to be able to assess, you know, is the— are the opportunities we have within the organization, is the culture, is that going to be a right fit for that person? You know, I know we tend to look at a rec and then look for a person. I think more and more we're going to have to look for people and figure out, you know, where to put them, where to put them. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's kind of how we've been approaching sourcing is, is really more around pipeline building. Let's look for the, you know, let's look for the right people. And then let's figure out where in the organization.

Hey guys, we got a triangle hole. Let's go find a triangle, right? Like, let's try to— oh, it's a circle, doesn't fit. Oh, it's a square and it doesn't fit. Well, what if we can change the hole? Yeah, exactly. What if we put the circle in the, you know, what if we don't have that hole that is so rigidly formatted? That you can't put anything but that shape in it, you know?

Right.

That gap. I mean, by hole, I mean a requisition, which is an open position, not for anybody that was thinking about something weird. Where's your mind at? Come on, get out of the gutter. Um, so I like that. It's, it's taking the time to listen. And by the way, I, I wanted to say this, and then I stopped myself because I wasn't listening. Um, I wanted to say, when you said that, it popped into my head, and I'm like, okay, put that thought aside. Listening doesn't mean waiting for the other people to shut up so you can say something. That— I sometimes feel like people say they're a good listener when they're just polite listeners. In other words, they don't interrupt you. I have been accused, can you imagine that, of interrupting people. I probably have done that 27 times on this 30-minute show. But that doesn't make me a bad listener. I am listening, and sometimes I interrupt because I get excited. I know that's a bad thing, and I'm trying to learn not to do that, but I am listening, and that's why I'm interrupting, because I have something that contributes to that. And I got to be mindful, like I just did a minute ago, to go, oh, wait, wait, put that to the side, wait until she's done. But I continue to listen, and I think sometimes other people are literally just tuned out, and they just have something they want to say, and whenever you're done, they say what they have to say, but it's not it's not really a conversation. It's like they broadcast, you broadcast, they broadcast, you broadcast, right? So it's important. Somebody once told me that that's called active listening, which makes me wonder what inactive listening is. But yeah, for what it's worth, I think that's a really good skill. And you don't have to listen with your ears, you can listen with your eyes, right? You know, you can listen to what people are typing, you can pay attention and try to interpret. And the other thing is my, my, um, my executive coach— yes, I have an executive coach— for, um, uh, for a little while now has been convincing me to look at the, uh, book Emotional Intelligence. So I started reading it, and, um, at first I'm like, I don't get this emotional intelligence, I'm not really sure what this is. But I'm starting to get it, partly because of my coach. I think, you know, explaining the book is a little bit easier because empathy for me is not one of those I'm a good listener, but I can listen, and what I do really well is interpret, analyze, synthesize, summarize, and, you know, I'm good at that. But empathize has always been a gap for me. Sometimes I take the information for what it is, synthesize it, and put it back in into a more understandable package, but it's still the information. I kind of left the emotion out of it. So this emotional intelligence thing has been telling me that when you're listening intently or active listening, it's about not jumping to conclusions about what they're saying. So absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think it's also the follow-up, right?

Exactly.

The more meaningful you have of a, you know, so I just, I obviously just listened to your experience, right? And what you're going through from a coaching perspective.

Let me tell you what I understood. Yeah. Is this what you meant? Did you mean that, right? Instead of, oh gee, I picked up from that Shelly has no emotions. No, that's not— yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the other person, let's be honest, when we have a conversation and you're telling me a story, if I'm able to articulate that back to you, or if I'm able to share with you— yeah, if I'm able to share with you one nugget I took away from that, then you know what? You feel good because you know that our interaction was meaningful for both of us, right? I listened, I heard you. And I, you know, and I, and I took something away from that conversation. And that's why I think as recruiters and sourcers, We need to listen, we need to understand, but we also need, we need to make sure that that next conversation that person has is a building block, right? Every one of those conversations from the source to the recruiter, to the hiring manager. Absolutely. So it shouldn't be redundant. We should be adding every time. So that's why unfortunately, good, bad, or indifferent, we've got to take notes. Like we also have to be able to convey, you know, what we learned from each of those conversations. And that whole experience end to end should be a building block. So by the time, you know, I as a candidate get to the end, and I get to my offer, I know that everybody, everybody I talked to learn something about me, and then the next person carried that on and so on and so forth. So those conversations, you know, towards the end of that hiring process should be so rich, right? Because I'm not starting from scratch in terms of representing myself as a candidate. Because you have the benefit, you know, as the interviewer, of learning everything else about me throughout that entire process.

And it's an aggregate. It's— these are the 3 things from the 3. Yeah, that— I like that. That makes sense. But we have to take notes. Oh my gosh.

I know.

That is so bad. People just don't.

You should see my— you should see my desk. And I'm a paper note-taker. I know.

Yeah.

Horrible.

I'm a OneNote note-taker. Evernote.

I'm trying.

Yeah.

I'm trying.

I know. Yeah, think of it as the same thing. I— that's how I did it. It was like, okay, if I'm going to write it down on a notebook, I'm just going to write it. Same thing. Flip a page, start with a new page, and then you can organize later. Just with— yeah. Well, um, Mary, it was really, really nice having you. I'm so sorry we went over, but it was such a good conversation. I didn't want to end it soon. Good luck.

Thank you.

And all the best in your new— in your new, um, challenge. I'm sure you'll do wonderful. And hopefully we'll have you back in a few months after you've settled in and you can tell us about how it went.

Awesome. I hope so. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for being here. Any last words for the audience before you say goodbye?

Um, happy holidays. You know what? Give yourself an opportunity to take a little bit of a break and refresh and renew and just enjoy this time with friends and family. You never get this time back.

That's right. You can't, you can't spend this time again.

Nope.

You can only spend it once.

That's right.

Yeah. Good. Well, happy holidays, everybody, and we'll see you next week. Take care. Bye-bye.

Thanks, Shelley. Bye-bye.