Meet David Penny! Live on Shally's Alley

Hello everybody, happy Friday, September 19th. No, sorry, September 3rd. Wait a minute, oh my God, it's Friday the 13th. I just realized that. Oh, Scary Friday for everybody. Friday the 13th, uh, it happens every once in a while, but there you have it. Well, you are live on Shelly's Alley on Friday the 14th. Okay. Today, I want to talk about two controversial topics. One of them has been hotly debated, brought up a few times in conversations, and even formerly some guests on the show. And as I'm doing a TA leadership survey right now to write a research paper about it— by the way, if you're a TA leader and you're interested in being part of my TA leadership survey, drop me a note. You know how to find me. Just go to LinkedIn. Send me a message and I'd be happy to interview you. It's about 20-minute interview, have a few— 3 questions basically. And I'll be publishing the, the report. Of course, people who participate in the interview first will be actually, um, getting that, that research paper. So actually, let me go over here and there. I think that's the one right there. Yeah, that's the— oh, sorry, buddy. Let me put you over here and introduce you to everybody. Okay, everybody, this is David Penny, um, and I want to introduce him. David has about, what, 15 years of experience in, in healthcare and medical and, uh, retail, uh, two, two very high-volume fields of recruitment. And he's gonna talk to us today about the topic that I was mentioning before. But before I forget, There's the QR code. Scan that and please join the TA Leadership Study to answer some questions that will help us all figure out kind of what's hot and what we're doing to solve what's hot in TA leadership today. So what is the hot topic? Well, you know, with pay transparency, a lot of companies now are moving in the direction of just posting the range in, in all of their job postings because especially if you have remote opportunities that are nationwide, you don't want to have to like post a different job in every state to, you know, try to abide by all of the different location regulations about pay transparency. So a lot of employers are just choosing to post, you know, like regional ranges, like in the West Coast it's this, or, you know, we have 3 ranges or whatever. But the problem is that what I'm hearing our candidates are basically just going right to the top of the range without even stopping to negotiate. So, the moment that, you know, the compensation comes up, the candidates refer to that posted salary range and they assume that they're going to qualify for the absolute top number. And that's what's posted, so that's what they're going to get. The problem is that it is a range and the range is there because there are ranges of experience, ranges of skill and knowledge. And just like that, there's also ranges of compensation. It is not a single base salary that is posted. So how do we handle that? Well, that's what I wanted to ask David because he has a particularly interesting solution to that, which is to dig into candidate motivation in the conversation when you are building rapport, establishing rapport with the candidate, and understanding their career goals before you move on to, you know, presenting them to the hiring manager and all that, early on in that conversation, it should be okay to dig in to understand what those candidates' motivators are. And that way, you can utilize what's important to the candidate, what drives them, what motivates them as part of the negotiation, rather than just making it all about that top number. So, that's the first topic that I wanted to talk with, with David about. David, what do you think about that? Have you encountered candidates that just Immediately they're like, oh, I saw that the compensation is $50,000 to $100,000 and I'm asking for $100,000. And since we can't even ask them what they were making before, we literally have like no place to start. So you encounter that often? Does that happen?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for those candidates that do their research more than just applying to anything and everything that's out there, when you get them on the phone and there's the pay transparency, which if I remember correctly is a good faith range as the law states, and companies have taken that liberally in some capacity. But then yes, from the candidate side, of course, wanting to make and maximize your earnings potential makes sense. But that's where, and we'll dive into it here shortly, but the motivational piece I think is a quintessential aspect of understanding if this is someone that money is the motivator for why they're looking to make a move from their current employer, well, we should address that accordingly. But compensation should be a day one discussion and frankly talked about early and often throughout the interview process, especially nowadays since we really can't ask them, well, how much are you making?

And that's out of the conversation. But don't you feel like if the— don't you feel like maybe pay transparency is forcing people to be more money driven because it's already been published? So it takes the romance out of the relationship and immediately they just go right to that top number. I mean, and I think— and let me, let me put the other side of the coin on the table here as well so we can look at both sides of the coin. You know, employers' response to this mandate that we have to have pay transparency are all over the place. Some employers, as you said, will choose to have a best guess, you know, estimate. Others have really solid bands. And there's always the argument of, do we post the actual band, or do we post some sort of guess range in there. But what I'm noticing is that it's a pretty broad range. In other words, I'm seeing lots of employers putting not $50,000 to $60,000, but like $50,000 to $80,000 or something really ridiculous like that, which I think maybe part of the problem is that because the range is so high, people just assume to go for the top range. So do you feel like pay transparency is actually having a negative effect? In, in the negotiation ability, both sides?

I would actually take the stance that pay transparency is a good thing across the board. I think it forces companies to look at it from an internal equity standpoint and be realistic. I— whether you're more formally built out with a workforce planning team that can look at that and say, all right, who's the, the bottom number, who's the top number, and what is the band that goes along to that? Or what do we want to be when we think about attracting top talent? What's the realistic aspect of what that comes with? And how are we measuring where compensation comes into play? Is it just years of experience? Is it education levels? Is it certifications? Is it area of the country that you were mentioning? I mean, all the different factors, right? Exactly.

And so that's the intent of it, right? So that seems— everything you're saying is great. It's positive. That is the intent of it. So if that was how it was being applied, it'd be great. The problem is nobody— it's human nature— nobody's going to look at that number and say, oh, it's a range, I'll qualify somewhere in the middle. And also, candidates aren't going to trust that you're going to pick an appropriate spot in that range. So they just immediately demand, expect that they're just going to get the top number no matter what. And what I'm hearing from employers and from other recruiters is that If they come back with something that's in the middle of that range, candidates are just offended. They're like, well, why didn't you offer me the full, you know, top number? That's what you posted. So what do you think about that?

I think you need to address it in the moment. I think there's a transparency or what I have coached teams on of what I just call open communication. And it's part building that trust early on with your candidates to understand what we're talking about, motivations, but also how we're going to talk about compensation. What's the understanding of what the range is? What are the laws? What are their intentions? What can we ask about? What can't we ask about? And then really establishing, coming back to the motivations, what, what's it going to take for them to even consider making a move? And okay.

All right. So tell me about that. So how do you, how do you broach— I mean, you know, the candidate, it's your first call. You know, they applied, you call them, whatever. But it's literally, it's that first initial phone screen, recruiter interview, whatever you want to call it, how do you, how do you broach the subject of can't? Do you even straight up ask them what's your motivation? Or do you have like a technique for gently sussing that out? I mean, how blunt do you go?

Yeah. I mean, being in recruitment, I think as long as we both have every conversation's unique and different, the more that you can make it a conversation, usually the more that you're getting out of it within the realm of scope of recruitment. So if somebody out the gate is saying, hey, I'm looking to make a move because I'm money motivated, all right, well, let's jump into compensation from the get-go. If it's something that is kind of more of the natural discussion around it, yeah, I might save compensation till the end. But regardless, when we get to compensation, I always kind of try to make it lighthearted as much of a serious a topic as it is. But hey, we're talking compensation. Haha, everybody's favorite topic. But here's the laws that are in place. Here's the pay transparency, what it means, what it means—

This is a posted range, right?

Right. So whether people are aware of what that looks like or not, the spiel that I go through with folks is, look, we're into compensation. When we're talking about compensation, it's not asking about anything to do with where you're at today or where you've been at previously. And please don't disclose that information. But really what it's focused on are those expectations going forward. So as we're talking about any of our postings, you're going to have that good faith range associated to it and we can back up on kind of where even ranges come from. But so the range is in the posting. Is there a base number or even better, a base range that you're looking for to even consider making a move?

That's when they say the top number. I mean, just go top number. Okay.

And okay, well, if their experience justifies a top number, okay, maybe I'll talk through the idea. All right.

Because that's—

yeah, I mean, most cases it's not.

Most of the time the— every candidate doesn't qualify for the top of the range, right? So how do you dig into motivation then at that point? Now, you— you— do you back up and, um, ask them, like, for example, what are some of— you know, what are some of the, uh, important things to you? Is it Are you looking for career mobility? Are you looking for team? Are you looking for culture? Like, what is— walk me through what are some of the things aside from money that drive people to accept a new job?

Yeah. And look, I'd say if compensation is your one and only reason for making a move, I'm not going to say it's a red or even yellow flag at that point, but it's going to be something we want to be very realistic on.

You're too excited, I think. Yeah.

I'm not wasting your time. You're not wasting ours.

It's part of the reason, but it can't be the only thing.

Right. And frankly, if we're going to go through the entire interview process just to get to the end and extend an offer that you're not going to be excited about or even consider accepting based on comp, what are we doing? So the motivation pieces I want to outline: how's it, how's it going with your current employer? What, what has you even on the conversation that we're having today? I mean, it can vary from, look, I'm looking for more career growth and more trajectory of how I can upskill myself, or I'm an individual contributor now, I'm looking to move into management. There's obviously the not so fun side of a toxic work environment and trying to get out of that.

Who's going to admit that, right? Nobody wants to talk about their current employer in a negative light and, you know, have people think that they're just a negative person. Um, but yeah, but you can definitely say, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of work, long hours, things like that without accusing anyone of being toxic. Yeah.

Well, and what's the work-life balance?

What do you mean by that? Work-life balance, mobility, career progression. Okay. Maybe time off, maybe, you know, family time. Um, those kinds of things. Okay.

Well, and even when I'm working with my own team of what their motivations are, I try to do a touch base in that specific category every 3 to 6 months because everyone's motivations are going to change with time, with experience. Very good point. Something that might have been a great opportunity, position, company 2 years ago may not necessarily have the alignment of what your life goals or what you're looking to achieve in the next 6 to 12 months going forward. And so those are some of those pieces that almost sidestepping compensation for a second is then to say, all right, well, let's dive into those to see if from a career opportunity, this is something that when we get back to compensation, hey, do you have any more flexibility now knowing that the other pieces for why we're having the conversation today and what you're looking for might actually set you up longer term for a better opportunity?

Right. So in other words, this may be the range now, but this, this opportunity also leads to higher paying jobs because of the, you know, career progression available in this position or at this company that may not be available. So you may, you may be looking for the top of the range, but we may be able to offer you much more than just the top of the range by being able to, you know, provide you with a career that, that gets you to a higher compensation range. Let me ask you this question. So what do you, what do you think about, um, and this is something that I've tried with some success, and it's also not It's been successful, but it's also kind of gotten nowhere at the same, like different conversations. And that is, look, if you were to be offered, if you were offered two different jobs with two different companies and they are both the exact same compensation. In other words, it's, we'll just use the number. It's $100,000 here or $100,000 there. How would you choose? What would be, I mean, which one of the two jobs, they're both offering the exact same compensation. What are the other things that you're looking at? And that's kind of a question I like to ask. Now, it's worked because I've had people say, "Well, if they were both the same amount of money, then I would ask about questions about company culture." Or that's one answer. Or I would ask about mentorship and development and new challenges and things like that. But where it's backfired, and this is where I'd love you to jump in and talk about it, is where they've said, "Well, if they're the exact same job, then I'm just going to go with the company that's got a better reputation or the better brand." Like the blue, if it's $100,000 at Apple versus $100,000 at company XYZ that I've never heard of. I'm just gonna go with Apple. And that's kind of like, okay, that's pretty nearsighted. Like, that doesn't really— that doesn't really say anything. You might end up not liking the job because of it, you know. So what do you think about that?

I think you put it well. I think it's very nearsighted if that's going to be the response of, well, I'm just going to take whatever sounds better.

Yeah, whichever's got a better reputation.

Yeah, well, yeah, and, and look, there's definitely, we know there's the Glassdoors, your LinkedIn, your recommendations, all of that's out there. Um, but the idea of not having motivations, it comes back to like, all right, if it's going to be the same amount but I'm going to go with just the reputation piece, all right, well then that's your motivation behind it. And if I'm a smaller organization that maybe doesn't have that, I'm not saying we lie down and just say, all right, well, good luck. But it might be something we want to address in a different way to come back to that idea. And look, I like how you framed it up that way. I tend to, when I'm talking to somebody about their job search, all right, well, how's the job search going? Who else is in the mix? Who else are you talking to? Where are you at in interview processes? Are there certain aspects that you're enjoying more about a specific company that you're interviewing with or anything that they maybe don't have as much of? And then how do I cater that to really then talk about the company or the position that I'm talking about to see, all right, outside of the compensation pieces, can we look at this in a broader way that when we think about setting someone up for success, yeah, compensation and the dollar amount is going to be part of that, but it's not just day one, but how do we get them to see what What does that next 6, 12 months and beyond really look like?

So throw me a question how you would ask that. Like, how would you approach that subject with a candidate? How would you frame that question?

In the concept of they came back and said, all right, $100,000, $100,000, I'm picking the—

No, just in the concept of you're trying to uncover their motivation, right? So now you're stuck on— not stuck, but you're like, you've gotten to a point where they gave you a number and it's not a number that you guys are really willing to to go to. So now you got to try to, you know, dig into what are the other motivations. Do you just straight up ask them what your motivations are? Or do you say, well, where do you want to— where do you see yourselves in a year? Where do you— like, how do you get to that without being so blunt as saying, what motivates you? Because if you ask that, I feel like if I say, what motivates you? Sometimes people go, oh, you know, money, or, you know, whatever. They just kind of give a flip answer, which is really not the real answer. The real answer may be, reputation. It may be, I just, I just don't like the people I'm working with right now. And I want to be with fun people. It may be, I mean, gosh, I don't know, benefits. I mean, there's, there's things that we don't even, we don't even know, right? So how do you throw a question at me? Like, how would you ask that question to drive the conversation towards what really motivates me?

Yeah, I mean, No one should be talking poorly about an existing employer. That's not going to help most people in their situation. But when this specific question could be very blunt on the what's motivating you to consider a new opportunity. And so it takes the, all right, whether you applied or I reached out to you in some shape or form, what, what has he at least brought you here today?

Why are we having this conversation?

Exactly. Because as much as I might be, yes, recruiting, talent acquisition, we're also marketing, we're sales, we're the gatekeepers, we're everything that goes along with— I'm the knowledge base that's going to tell the candidate, hey, let's keep this conversation going, or hey, maybe this isn't the right opportunity for you now for whatever reason, and let's, let's stay in mind in the future. And who else do you know? Um, and so I'm pretty blunt when it comes to the motivational piece and, and Sometimes it takes asking it a couple of times and kind of getting through the surface-level answer that goes along to that. But I think it's also, when I think about a candidate and competencies, it's then, yeah, there's motivating factors, but it's also what are they looking for? What are they not getting? And so those are some of the other ways of just kind of asking that same question in a little bit different way of, hey, what do you feel like you're not getting with your current employer or your existing your existing supervisor or your existing role? Or, and some of that you just have to listen for even some of the surface-level answers of, "All right, well, how do I dig into that further to see what, what else I can pull out of the candidate to then really—" So their first answer may not even be the real—

you still need to dig a little bit. How about, let me ask you this. Aside, money aside, so let's take compensation and, you know, take it off the table. Aside from that, what are maybe the top 3 other drivers that happen most? I know everyone's different and there's combinations. You might have 5 motivators and it's a mix of them. But what are the top 3 that you hear about the most? And for example, I'm just going to throw out a few. I'm not saying these are them, but like equity, for example, long-term equity, or working from home, or flex time, or you know, travel, either more travel or less travel, or company culture. So these are something, some things. There may be others. What do you think are the top 3 most frequent ones?

So off the top of my head, the first one that comes to mind are those that are in an individual contributor position looking to move into management. And I think that's a tough one to jump into at a new organization. Some companies are set up to do full management training and what that looks like. Most, you're going to need have some kind of people leadership under your belt to even consider making that, that next move.

But that is a bit—

okay, work-life balance, which can be everything from the work from home, hybrid, in-office comparisons and what somebody might now be looking for, um, and long hours or travel, right?

Okay, yeah, exactly.

And that's one that, as I mentioned, like, that, that probably changes and evolves with everyone throughout their career, especially, call it since 2020, where everything everything went remote, and you would have said like, oh, everything's going to be remote forever. And then it kind of pendulumed back the other way of, well, now everything's kind of much more in office, and now we're hybrid, and now we're somewhere in between. Um, and I think it's really crucial for the recruiter to understand what— not only the opportunity, but the company. And whether it's going back to your initial kickoff meeting with the hiring manager or individuals, to understand What is flexible here? Yeah, we're saying, all right, it's a hybrid position at 3 days a week. But if I've got somebody that—

are the hours flexible? Are the days flexible? Is it the on-site that's flexible? What is, what does flexible mean?

Okay. Yep, exactly. And then outside of compensation, I think the other one is really the skill build. Folks that want to do more and whether the company just isn't structured or focused on the self-development. Feedback side of how we, how we continue to grow. And someone that recognizes that, I think, has a level of humbleness even in, in some capacity. But it's also looking at that broader picture to say, all right, because I'm not a huge fan of where do you see yourself in a year or 5 years.

I don't think that's a bad question.

Yeah, I, I could tell you Crystal ball or not, I would not have guessed where I was going to be in a year or 5 years and what that looked like. So, and I think that should change and evolve over time. In the research that I've been following you for quite some time, you don't like to be referred to as the guru. I would say it's the— I don't want to be a subject matter expert because I don't think it exists. I think it's a continual learner of the business and continual learner of self is really how we continue to grow. And if you're not getting that support with an organization, I'd say that's I tend to see as a pretty big motivator for, for why people are looking to make a move.

Good, good. So that's 3 good ones. So, you know, for, for recruiters out there that are, that are encountering this pay transparency obstacle, um, you know, these are some things that you should be starting to look for, that there may be one of these 3, or as you get better at it, you know, understand others. I mean, I, I gotta tell you, I've, I've made— I don't know about you, but I've made some offers where the compensation was a step backwards. From where they were now. And the reasons were varied. Some of them just absolutely, you know, even funny. Not funny like I'm laughing at them, but funny in that they're like, well, you know, they come clean and they go, well, the real reason is, and then I'm like, wow, okay, that's interesting. But that's what's driving you. So hey, this is a great opportunity because it does that for you. So yeah, I think digging into that is really I think key to disarming, and I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean to not get stuck in this confrontation of, well, this is what you posted, this is what I want. Okay, great. We got to move past that because we may not offer you that. You know, what if, what if we interview you and we go through the entire process? We love you, you love us, you want the job, we want to hire you, but we don't come back with an offer that's that number, then what? Like, what's gonna happen then? Are you gonna walk away from this, or, you know, are there other things you would consider? And so maybe not on the very first 15-minute conversation— that's a lot to do— but I think you need to cover that before you have those down the stage, you know, second and third interviews, or else it's going to come up. So, um, good. So I think we have uncovered some things for people to think about. Um, what about the other topic that I wanted to, to ask you about? And, um, yeah, a little bit of self-promotion here. I'm going to bring back that, that, um, QR code again. So please scan this QR code if you are at all interested in joining my TA leadership survey that I'm doing. We're going to be publishing, uh, I have 3 questions that I want to ask about What's driving TA right now? And, you know, I'm going to use some of the information from the, from the show here, but also from these questions to publish kind of like a state of the industry when it comes to what's driving TA leaders today. So, please join. There's the code. I'm going to put it in the bottom because it's— I don't want to cover your face there. So, the second big topic, and this is one of the ones that I'm exploring in that leadership study as well, is about telling your story within your organization. So, you have the, you know, there's lots of talk about how to market your department, how to market TA in your organization, how to market HR in your organization. But I don't think there's enough told about telling the individual's point of view story. So, almost like your elevator pitch, but not your elevator pitch to candidates. Your elevator pitch to your own company, selling your individual value internally as a TA professional, particularly because of career mobility, right? A lot of folks are aware that in TA, the career mobility is somewhat, I don't want to say limited, but you know, if you're a recruiter, you can become a senior recruiter, recruiting manager, recruiting director, Once you get to the top TA role, there's not a whole lot else. So career mobility is a challenge for us. So I'd love to take— get your take on how to market yourself internally for your own career development within TA.

Yeah, I, I think one of the key pieces that is absolutely TA, but it's probably more broad in, in some capacity, is understanding what moves the needle. What is the one or two metrics that the company cares about and understanding— yep, exactly. And how can your role impact the larger aspect and move that needle? So when we think about that from a recruiting talent acquisition standpoint, yeah, it might be filling positions quicker or time to fill in, in a KPI metric standpoint, but Building the cross-functional relationships, getting in front of other key leaders, especially when you're working on positions in their pyramids. That's where HR should be as far away from a siloed capacity as, as possible. Obviously, there's limited transparency that can go along with some HR situations, but when we think about it from a recruitment standpoint and that that self-brand, because that's what it is. You're building your brand within your organization. You're the first person that candidates are going to be talking to. You're the face of the company in that sense. And so not only for those that you facilitate getting through the interview process and get hired on and the experience that they've had with you as their recruiter and how that kind of ripple effects throughout the organization when new folks are joining in that sense, but Understanding your own— coming back to motivations— what, what are your goals in that continued growth path? Are you looking to stay within the TA career ladder, and to your point, recruiter, senior recruiter, manager, senior manager, so on, so forth? Or at some point, have you said like, all right, well, I'm glad I've had the recruiting experience, I love HR, what other aspects of HR—

I want to go into an HR business partner role, or a business analyst role. There's, there is some lateral mobility. So how, what are the steps that you would take to, to build your, your internal, uh, I don't even know what to call it, like your, your own internal pitch, right, to make those connections with, with other? And I, and I want to go back to what you said as far as like what are the one or two key factors for the company. So for example, I'm going to ask you if these are what you were thinking. So for example, the company is looking to penetrate new markets. That might be the key strategic objective or grow their sales. So, you know, sales growth or territory growth or new market growth or innovation or, you know, efficiency. Like what is that key driver? And then you play your playbook to that key driver. But how do you start building the story? So let's say you identified that key driver and we'll just say it's new territory. Well, you're known as the, you know, you become known as the recruiter that is great at, you know, establishing talent acquisition in new territory that we've never worked on. So like you're the one that does all the new country research and learns the laws and all that stuff. Great. So you've identified that, but how do you start? How do you build— first of all, how do you build the story? And then how do you market the story? Like, you don't just go around telling everybody, hey guys, I'm known as the recruiter. So what's the next step?

Yeah, well, talent acquisition, we need to play the advisors to the organization, whether that's the hiring manager or beyond. The, the research that goes along with and the tools and AI are And so whether we're sticking with the example of kind of the new market aspects, okay, well, if a company has a goal of hiring 50 new folks in a territory we haven't been in, okay, well, how do you then take the lead of, all right, here's the, here's the population, here are the demographics, here are even an idea of some of the skill sets or education levels that I can then come to that next meeting with the higher-ups to say, All right, you're saying you want 50. Here's a rough outline of this area, territory, and some of the demographics that we're looking at to say, all right, here's a roadmap even of how quickly we can build this in some capacity. What are some of the roadblocks that we might not be thinking of that we should be? And how do we leverage others that are already in this space in some capacity? So when I come back to then, yeah, we're not dancing around and saying, hey, I'm the new guru them in this capacity, but building the trust and being that advisor aspect is where I think you can really put some pretty big impact into the business and then justifiably so impact for your own career in that sense. And I think the getting exposure to those different areas and whether it's different areas of business, different areas of research, and again being that trusted advisor, is when it no longer becomes, I'm only calling David for recruitment questions, but I've got other questions that I'm curious about that. Right. You're a go-to resource in that sense.

Like Chrissy Wilson said, as far as like, you know, brand awareness, social engagement, you know, telling the company story, engaging people. So they get to know you as a go-to person for more than just the job. Yep, exactly. Okay. So threading a fine line here. Let me, let me pitch a scenario to you that I've, I've thought about multiple occasions. There's, there's a fine line. There's a balance, almost a razor's edge of where, you know, if you, if you walk this line, it can have great career advantages, but it can also be somewhat catastrophic. And that is taking on more work. So, for example, you're a recruiter, your job is to fill jobs. Okay? That you also start getting diving into, you know, building a brand and doing social media for your company. And you kind of start saying yes to other work that isn't your main job. And what I'm— so what I'm saying is that there's that fine line of you end up taking on a lot of other work that isn't your main job. And I'm not saying that your main job is going to suffer, but do people then start seeing you as like, well, they do all these other things, you know, that they're really not focused on their job, even though you're producing the numbers you're expected to and you're doing your job and you're getting great reviews? At what point do people start seeing you as kind of a yes person or, you know, a people pleaser or a kiss-up or You know what I'm saying? Like, where's that fine line of getting exposure to the business versus getting overexposed?

Yeah, it's a great question and frankly, just a great topic. And one of the, I think, big challenges for folks, especially early on and probably even well into mid-year career, is the ability to say no.

And then it— I get that. Remember, this is— we're talking about what we wanted, right? So saying no when you're, when you're being asked for something, I understand that. I'm not saying I'm good, I kind of suck at it actually. Um, but what I'm talking about is what you just said, which is looking for that, those opportunities. So one thing is they're asking you for stuff, they're asking you to do stuff, and you're saying no. Okay, I get that. But what is— what if you're, in order to promote yourself in the organization, you take on the jobs? You see what I mean? Like, "Hey David, we're gonna have to let you go because you've been doing great with this talent pooling stuff. But we don't feel like you're paying too much attention to your, you know, filling jobs job. So yeah, you're underperforming based on that." And you're not. You're totally not. But they just— it's that perception, right? And you did the other thing because you wanted that It's like you want the career progression, you want the lateral mobility, so you have to take that chance. So you can't say no to those things because that's where you want to go. But then there's that fine line of you do too much of that and now you're no longer valuable for your original purpose.

Well, and that's that fine line just in a different way. Yeah. Well, and that's the other fine line is your supervisor, manager, your leadership. In understanding what are you trying to accomplish. And if you're trying to accomplish getting exposure to other areas, then it becomes a question of reprioritization. And to what we're both saying is it doesn't necessarily mean that recruiting goes away and filling position goes away, but it may mean that we need to reallocate where some of our time is being spent in making sure that your leader or leaders are aware of where your time is. Of your career. Yep, exactly. And so if you're spending more time on the research or the other aspects of the growth or what you're getting pulled into, that can be great. But your leadership needs to be aware of that because your day is going to look probably very different than— Right. So in that sense, it's like—

so what you're saying is if you're going to do this, be transparent. With your organization, with your manager in your organization, that this is one of your career goals and that you're seeking career development, which I think, I think the— personally, I believe that the employer is responsible for providing you opportunities for career development but not providing you career development. Does that make sense? Like, it sounds like a fine line, but it isn't. I think an employer should give you— should, should make it possible for you to take classes, make it possible for you to have mentorship, make it possible for you to learn different things. But I don't think it's your employer's responsibility to make sure you do that, right? No. So you tell them that's what I want to do, and it's part of your— now it's part of your plan, and you put it in your goals. Then at the end of the year, when you're doing your annual review, it's one of the bullet points then it counts towards your value as opposed to against, I think is what you're saying.

Oh yeah. And I'd like to think most companies are focused on career development. I don't know that I would go as far as say all, but they provide some, but they're not— they provide some, but I think it's also the responsibility of the TA professional to know what it is that they want and formulate that conversation with the necessary supervisor or leadership to, one, see if it's something they can get behind and support. And two, then how do you actually put parameters in place that say, all right, how do we maybe not fully quantify this from a metric standpoint, but how are we going to reflect back on this 3 months, 6 months later to say, what have I accomplished? Is this still the the route that I'm looking to continue to grow in, or, hey, I'm glad I got that extra experience and exposure, maybe not necessarily the direction that I'm looking to go in and what's next.

So personally, this is what happened with me, and they didn't fire me. It was just that, that other part was an example that I wanted to throw in there for the sake of the conversation. But what happened with me was I was at this organization and I expressed interest in business analysis, intelligence, business intelligence. And as, as Chrissy's saying here, you know, upskilling should be a priority for everyone if you're looking to improve your career 100%. You need to, you need to figure out what you want, where do you want to go, right? And for me, it was a matter of, okay, well, I don't think there's much— I did not want to be an HRBP, so there wasn't another. I was at the top of the pyramid for talent acquisition and I didn't want to go to HRBP. So I was like, where else do I go? And I started exploring business intelligence, competitive intelligence and things like that. So I went to my boss and told them that that's what I wanted. I pursued some courses and some— I was going to do certification and ended up not doing that, but I did go to an event and attended webinars and took classes. And I even reached out to people inside the organization that that were in that business and started conversations with them. And one of the things I did is I asked if I could do a project with them and asked my boss if it was okay to have this as a little side project, you know, a couple hours a week, things like that. So fast forward to now, all of a sudden— not all of a sudden, but I waved my magic wand. Fast forward, now I'm a Power BI expert, right? And I know Power BI. And so what's the next step? So at this point, I had made the transition into being conversant in analytics at the level of some of the other people who did that job as a full-time job. Now what do I do? Because there wasn't— I did actually apply for a job, believe it or not, but I didn't get it because the other person was way more qualified internally and I knew it. I mean, I knew who they were and I'm like, oh yeah, they definitely needed to get that job. And I could have kept trying to do that, but how do I— my question to you is, how do I tell my story internally at this point? In other words, I'm now saying I used to be a recruiter, now I want to be a Power BI person. How do I tell that? How do I brag without bragging? How do I start saying, hey guys, I'm Power BI certified? I wasn't, but like, you know, I'm Power BI expert now. Let me take on some of your Power BI work. What's the approach for that?

So I think anybody in talent acquisition benefits from being much more well-versed in all things analytic related, period. I think, yeah, in that example, and look, it might be in that sense more challenging within the same organization because you kind of not grown up there, but kind of built those skill sets there in, in that capacity. But if you at that point then know, all right, I'm done with TA, or I'm done with recruiting, and I'm really looking to put that focus into the Power BI, SQL, VBA scripting, whatever it might be in, in that sense, the value add is really the human resources. Take a wider step back from just recruiting, but the human resources of Communication is usually one that in the deep analytics space is usually a challenge for maybe not most, but those that know the deep analytics can struggle with some of the communication and adjusting their communication to different audiences. And so if that's maybe a skill set that you bring to the table that is more of the bragging rights, if you will, and then the extra certifications, Power BI or what it might be, the wider knowledge that you bring to the table and being able to talk to end users in more of a, lack of a better term, layman's format of all the technical jargon that goes into a Power BI report or analytics in that sense to then say, hey, this is what it's actually doing for you. That's usually one of the bigger gaps I've found in folks in those Okay.

So how do I take that and communicate it? So how do I tell my story? In other words, I want to stay at the company in this scenario, and I want people in the organization to know that I'm available to do this kind of work and willing to take on this work. Do I— there's no internal, you know, bulletin board or job board or anything like that. And there may not necessarily be any job openings. If there were, I did apply for one, but if there were, I would apply. So it's more of a matter of like, now how do I tell my story? Without stepping over the line of looking like I'm a flight risk?

No, I mean, what do I do? I think if you have the trust and relationship with your supervisor, that's where I would start, because then from there, call it coffee chats or meet and greets with the directors or department heads of analytics groups to then say, hey, This is what I'm interested in. This is what I've—

So have the manager introduce you like, hey, Shelly's interested in your field. That's good. Okay. So they're aware of it. All right.

Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily need to be anything that's open today. I mean, we know networking—

Right, right. It's coffee chat. I gotcha.

—is how it usually plays out. But making sure that you're on the radar so that when that next position does become available, that even if you don't have an established intranet or a job posting that's out there, that whether it's the leader of that analytics group or potentially the HR business partner, whoever's going to be opening the requisition knows that, that you'd be interested in and would be worth a conversation would really be my, my advice on utilizing not only the new skills that you've obtained, but telling that story to, to stay within the organization, stay engaged and having more of that longevity to, to then make that switch.

What about like volunteering to take on projects that are outside of your of your department? You know, like for example, um, you know, you're in a meeting, um, for something else and somebody's like, yeah, well, we need to run some analysis. And, you know, just raise your hand and say, hey, I'm really good with Power BI, let me take that on. Is that a bad idea because it looks like you're bored at work, or is that a good idea because it looks like you're eager to try something? I— where's the— remember that edge? Where's the edge of, you know, Shelly, do you have enough to do?

Yeah. And my gut reaction to that is you're probably pushing past the edge if you're volunteering for additional work, because depending on who's in that meeting or what the structure is, my first thought is then, all right, well, you certainly got a lot of time on your hands. What have you been doing?

But the truth is I want to do this because I want to show off my skills and I'm going to have to work overtime for this.

Right. So I think that's that fine line of depending on the structure, depending on your supervisory support in that sense, what conversations you've already had. It might not be an in-the-moment, I'm volunteering in the meeting, but a walk away, have that extra conversation to be like, hey, I heard this was something that needs to get accomplished. I'd really like the opportunity to be a part of that. Outlining what your main goals or key responsibilities continue to be, but how you would then intertwine that into making that a success as well.

So I gotta fight— like, basically you're saying, um, you know, take the opportunity, have a conversation with your manager, have a conversation with them, and say, this is something I'd like to do, but I have a lot on my plate. Let me see if I can find a way to, you know, mix it in. And the reason I want to do this is because I'm trying, you know, this new direction for career development. Um, so that it's clear that you're doing this as a way to enhance your career, enhance your skills, not doing this because you're bored, whatever. So that's the question that I had about telling the story. Um, you know, obviously telling the story about your abilities within your own field is a little bit easier because it's your own field. So, it's not as challenging to walk that fine line. But what are your thoughts of, for people that are looking to get promoted within their field? What are your thoughts on how you start to tell your story? What are some internal self-promotion marketing techniques that you can use that are appropriate?

I think the— your goals. If your goal is to get into TA in that individual contributor capacity, first off, how do you get even just the exposure to more mentorship and leadership opportunities, and what does that potentially look like? From there, depending on how structured they are from a learning and organizational standpoint, what classes can you be taking within the organization? What classes can you be taking through a LinkedIn or any of the Ivy League schools are offering a number of classes online at this point, from leadership to anything else in between. And so I think within the pyramid of talent acquisition, your results need to speak for themselves in, in some capacity. If you're a bad recruiter, you're probably not going to be a good recruiting manager necessarily in that sense. So there's still a, I think, a strong focus on What are your current goals and how are you achieving those? To then making sure that you're outlining what, what it is that you want. And that's where coming back to anyone that's in that people leadership capacity, just because from day one somebody says that they want something management or other, that may change over time, especially as they're getting the exposure to more mentorship and leadership to really see what it's, it's like. And look, I'll say for myself, I was one of those that I always thought I wanted to get into management. I didn't realize that that would become the piece that I enjoyed the most of mentoring others and coaching and what that consists of. But there's plenty of people that would prefer to be that individual contributor. And at the same time, how do we still make sure that they're challenged, that they're upskilled in, in their own ways?

Okay, I like that. All right, well, um, so is— was there anything else that, that I should have asked you? We want— that we— that you wanted to share on telling your story? Uh, you know, I know that was a topic that, that you had identified as something you're passionate about. So how else to sell your value internally as a TA professional and career mobility, and anything else you want to add to that that we haven't had a chance to talk about?

Yeah, I mean, I would just add practice. Just like anything else, it sounds basic, it sounds simple. Oh, you're right, right. We practice skills as kids and growing up in sports or whatever you're into, um, and then the whole idea of practicing at work or practicing having conversations, it seems like it just kind of goes away. Like, oh, we should just be naturally able adapt and have all of this for us. Well, I think the reality is it takes a lot more critical thinking even in some capacities of sitting down with yourself of, all right, what do I want? And there's a self-reflective piece that needs to go along to that of understanding what am I doing well, where are my areas of opportunity. And look, I'm a huge component on feedback and it's both the feedback that's the rainbows and sunshine and let's make sure in In talent acquisition, when we have those wins, let's pause, let's celebrate, because it's usually, all right, thanks for filling that position, what are you doing for me tomorrow? But we can kind of control that narrative within our own teams as well. But then the, the challenging or critical feedback is as important, if not more so important, to have the discussion, but I think more so have the awareness. And so then mutually you can build those areas of opportunity so that when that next management position becomes available or when you're thinking about telling your story, that you've, you really outlined it and practiced it along the way so that really that you can stand out, whether it's from an internal group of however many people you're up against to why they should go with you versus somebody externally and how it all kind of plays out in that sense.

Okay, beautiful, beautiful. Oh, let's see, what should the best— so we have another tip here from Chrissy. I'm going to put that, see if I'll finish reading it. So another tip: volunteer for high visibility projects. Take on projects that are important to the organization and have high visibility. It not only showcases your skills but also demonstrates your willingness to take on challenges and contribute to the company's success, is the part that didn't show up there. Company success. So volunteer for some high visibility projects when they're asking for volunteers so you don't look like you're looking for extra work because you don't have any. Awesome. Well, hey, listen, so we are pretty close to the top of the hour here, David. I appreciate you coming on the show. I have two questions that everybody gets asked. Nobody is immune to these questions. The first of those is who should be our next guest? Who should I— That's how I found you, so yeah.

I take it in the talent acquisition space specifically? TA or HR at large, right?

I mean, it's connected to what we do.

Yeah. All right. Um, my first boss who I still consider my mentor and still go to on a somewhat regular basis, but Molly Mendoza. Who's currently the VP of HR at Lifeline Screening. I think she's 20-plus years in at this point, but it's where I got my start. It was second internship turned into a 6-month contract turned into 6 years, and I had the opportunity to be more HR generalist, but always with a full-cycle recruiting focus for nationwide medical, medical assistants, ultrasound sonographers. and just the wealth of knowledge that I continue to go more, but the learnings behind he was talking that, that for candidates coming into the interview process, take Nope, looks like you went quiet there.

David, can you still hear us? David is, um, at his camp in New Jersey on a week-long retreat, so I think his internet connection might have just gotten dark there. Apologies for that. Once again, as a reminder, please If you are a TA leader and you'd like to be involved in this, uh, 3-question survey that I'm doing, here is the QA code to join that. Uh, it'll just get an email. It asks you how to, how to schedule some time for about 20 to 30 minute conversation with me about the leadership goals. And the other thing is, uh, next week, so I, I just wanted to Hopefully he'll come back. Not sure if he's going to be able to reconnect, but if he does, we'll welcome him in. Next week we have Sarah Goldberg. You may remember her from many of the SourceCon and HRTX presentations. She's a great speaker, and we're going to be talking about metrics and morale, the two M's, metrics and morale. That's going to be our next week's episode. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like, like we'll be able to have David back. So, David, thank you very much for being, uh, let's be able to participate with us here. I will reach out to Molly and everybody will see you. Oh wait, he's back! Hold on.

There you go, you're back. Gotta love technical difficulties. So sorry.

All right, yeah, good. So you— I will reach out to Molly and, uh, you know, she may not agree, but I will reach out to her. And of course, the last question The last question that I was going to ask you is, would you give us something to think about over the weekend? So, it's a thought-provoking idea or question, not something that, you know, not an idea that you give us, but something that we should ask ourselves.

I mentioned being a continual learner of the business. I think equally important is being a learner of self. And that can mean many different aspects for anybody listening or anybody thinking about where are areas that you're looking to improve in life. And so it's something that I fully believe ties into our careers. It ties into our own. We know mental health is beyond an important topic in that sense. And how do we continue to educate ourselves in what we need? And so I think that's one that I know I've been on that journey more so in the last year and a half, give or take, and it's something that I think has been beyond rewarding. And so that would be my, my thought bubble, if you will, to go into the weekend. What's that area of development or self-development that you're, you're interested in and want to learn more about?

How are you developing yourself, or how could you develop yourself? How could you develop yourself? Um, all right, thanks a lot. Well, I was just about to sign off here, so, um, again, thank you, David, for taking an hour out of your day to be with us today. Really appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of your beautiful campsite out there. Uh, and everybody, we will see you next week with, um, Miss Goldberg, and, and we will