Nicole Robers Live on Shally's Alley

Hey, what's up people? You are live on Shally's Alley. It is, uh, pretty close to the middle of the year, Friday, June 13th today. Oh, that's a, that's an auspicious number.

Friday the 13th.

Yeah, Friday the 13th. That's happened to me once before on the show when I'm like, and I, and I'm saying the date, I'm like, it's Friday, and I'm like Wait a minute, that doesn't happen very often, but it has happened. It's kind of— I'm expecting Freddy Krueger to, uh, you know, come up over, over my right shoulder here. But anyways, um, well, welcome to Shelly's Alley. Thanks for joining us, uh, folks. Our guest today is Nicole Roberts, and you might, uh, you might be familiar with her from her, um, Amplify Your Signal show, which I guess we'll have to tell our listeners what that, what that is. Yeah, um, you know, a little plug for the show. But Nicole is— her background— I shouldn't say but— Nicole's background is in, um, in talent acquisition and in HR, uh, working with executives and founders. And now she leads a strategy practice, a strategy consulting practice working with founders and, um, and, you know, CHRO partners helping build people-first cultures and things like that. So, uh, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you on here. You were recommended by quite a few people. Thanks so much. Yeah, welcome, welcome. Um, you know, I wanted to start with something, uh, a little bit Well, I shouldn't say controversial because it's not really controversial, but let me start with this. You have companies that have seed money. They have investors, they have deep pockets that are— the deep pockets run for 3 years or whatever, and then the money runs out. And if they're not profitable, they just get chopped up or sold or defunded or whatever. So that's one kind of investor, right? Then you've got bootstrap companies or, you know, the, the angel investor companies where they're, they're not going to run out. They're just going to keep bootstrapping and bootstrapping, and, you know, either they make it or they don't. But it's not like some VC is just going to pull the money. And then you have PE, which is a whole different animal. And in my experience, what I personally have found is working, um, in a leadership role for a PE-backed company, or a company that formerly was not and got acquired by private equity, is, um, is really very different than any of the other types of funding, which all have their— you know, there's, there's the, there's the blank checkbook that you get from a, you know, highly funded company like an Uber or a Google, where you literally just have a blank checkbook for a certain amount of time. Then there's the, you know, public corporation where there's all kinds of other types of scrutiny and everything. Then there's a, you know, the, the founder-backed and things like that. But with PE, there's a kind of unspoken, super KPI-driven, um, almost like emotionless type of business. What's the, what's the very first thing you don't do when you're building TA or HR with a PE that's very different from any of the others? The very first thing that you don't do, what's the number one thing you want to avoid?

You want to avoid remembering that you are doing a culture build and not just an HR build, not just a systems build. You're creating clarity, trust, and alignment with people who have to live it every day. Like, it's one thing to have a fancy system or a fancy process that looks great on a deck for a board. It's another thing for the people that are living and breathing the system and living and breathing the process that has been put together. So you have to remember at the end of the day that people are actually going to be carrying this out.

And with PE is, I think that's kind of what I was trying to say before. Is with PE-backed companies, it's really hard to remember that because they're coming at it from— it's a very different profitability equation. It's not a, we've got 3 years to ramp up. It's not a, you know, we're scrapping, we're scrapping through and we're— every, every penny counts. It's, it's something, it's something completely different. And it kind of tends to be very depersonalized.

It can be.

It's— yeah, I guess, I guess that's what I'm saying is why is that so different? And yeah, that's, that's my question. What's the, what's the advice for in a people business?

Yeah.

Trying to peopleify, if that's even a word.

Yeah. So, so it can be until you make the case for why it's important to be investing in your people. I mean, look at the cost of turnover. Look at what the cost of operating out of looking too much at just strictly black and white numbers and not how the people are driving the business. And also HR has to make sure that they are aligned with the strategy of the business, the strategy and the goals of the PE, right? Like they have to make sure that they understand that. Otherwise it is going to look like you're operating in parallel.

I— so here's my, my personally, my experience with, um, both PE-backed and venture-backed, right, companies. And of course I had my own, my own bootstraps. So, you know, I, I was, I was my own bootstrap. Uh, I've been with PE and I've been with, with venture-backed.

Yeah.

Um, and for some reason it just, I keep, it keep coming back to KKR, uh, Kirk Kerkorian, right? This is a classic business school case that I think they might still even teach in business school. He was the king of, uh, this, uh, invest and divest, you know, kind of strategy where, where he would buy undervalued or underperforming companies, massive ones like MGM and Chrysler, kind of like PE firms do, in the way that PE firms scout distressed or overlooked assets with growth potential. And they come in there and they say, we have infrastructure that you don't have, we can help you scale in a way that you can't do right now. You guys are profitable, so you don't really need loans. What you need is back office, or what you need is, you know, uh, bridge capital, or whatever. And so it's kind of like that. And we used to call that corporate raiding. Back in the day with the KKR and then, you know, like Nabisco, for example, uh, is another example. And it was all around, you know, this turnaround playbook. So like quite literally it's like, here's my turnaround playbook. First do this, check, then do that, then do that, then do that. Private equity tactics, uh, very similar in, in, in a way that they're like just there to kind of boost value so they can exit. It's like, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my impression. Private equity is kind of like flipping houses.

So I've had experience with 3 different orgs that were PE-backed, and I can say it varies as much from industry as it does from the actual PE group that is involved. I have been—

so there's not like a textbook, that's what I mean. Yeah, I don't think there's a textbook that gets passed around like, okay, go do this, right?

I mean, I think there is certainly some form of a playbook, right? Like, we are looking at EBITDA multiples, we are looking at how we're going to improve the business, we are looking at all of those things. But also, um, I think that there's another type or breed of PE that, that is out there, and I, I think that, that they are seeing that it is possible to be people first. It is possible to have compassion in decision-making. It is possible to— now the caveat to this is you need to purchase organizations that are profitable and well-run and underperforming and put yourself into, into that position to kind of start with and then see what is already working for them and then inject the capital into it to help them, you you know, 10x what is already working for them.

That's what you're supposed to do. And that's what I think is the selling proposition.

That's what you're supposed to be doing. And some don't do that. Some come in with like a vice grip of, oh, well, we've brought all this capital. And so you should do all the things we tell you to do.

You must. Right.

Well, but the problem is, is we were already profitable.

And that you must is what kills the vibe.

And that's what kills it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

So, I mean, Kirkorian was doing PE before it was cool. I mean, he just didn't have the fund structure. He didn't have the PowerPoint decks. Um, he had limited partners, or he was more of a, more of like a solo financer, if you want, you know. But he also did a lot more gut gambling. Today, that kind of model would be similar to like an activist shareholder, um, you know, kind of thing. So it's, that's, that's how it's different than— and I know intellectually that's how it's different than PE, but I just feel like sometimes, um, you know, I had, I had a search for a, just as an example of, of kind of what I'm trying to get to here, for a, um, talent acquisition leader. We call it VP of TA. That's good enough. I mean, it wasn't, that wasn't the job title, but essentially functionally, right, for, for a PE company. And, um, they, I kept sending them, but this is going to sound really bad, it's not intended to, I'm trying to illustrate a point, but I kept sending them people that were really good at what they do Um, and they kept saying no to them. And, and again, I'm not trying to say that they were looking for people who were bad at what they do. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, but the people that I'm like, I know this person, they've built these things before, I vouch for them, like, you know, I, I recommend them, and they were just— they weren't getting anywhere. And I kept asking, you know, what's the feedback? What's— why, why? and finally somebody leaked, I guess, whether intentional or not, that they wanted someone who was in the VP of TA role, essentially capable of putting on PowerPoint decks. That was their job. And I was like, well, goddamn, I was not looking for that at all. I was looking for a person who was good at streamlining execution, right? Turnarounds.

Yes.

Um, you know, and then, and they're like, yeah, but they're not that great with PowerPoint. And I'm like, who cares, right?

Teach them PowerPoint.

Apparently they did. Is that common?

Uh, I would say not in my experience, but nothing would surprise me.

So what's up with something like that? I mean, what, what is the takeaway from there? Um, I mean, you know, is it like people first or founder first? I mean, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Well, and why would they not tell you that up front?

Like Well, because they want a people-first culture. That's the lie. That's what they want. They say, you know, people are our number one asset. Meanwhile, the CFO is like, no, they're our number one liability. You know, and it's like, so they say this almost like lip service. But then I see what happens when those words meet the P&L. And the P&L doesn't have the shape that the PE company backers, that the board wants, right? So I guess it comes together to what is the biggest myth that CEOs believe about what it takes to build a culture where people thrive? That is, that you've— what is the biggest myth that CEOs believe in that environment that's kind of— maybe that's why all of this is, is mixed up?

I think too many people think that people people first means soft, or people first means no accountability.

Oh my God, that's it.

I think that's— I think that's it. People first.

Oh my God, you nailed it.

Yeah, people first is strategic. It's not soft. People first is giving people clarity, accountability, appreciation. Like, culture is how decisions get made and how people feel. When they leave a meeting. It's not perks, posters, table tents, your barbecues. That's not culture. And I think that people first means addressing conflict and not avoiding it. I think that when you consistently do what you say you're gonna do, then that's when your culture is working, and that's when you have a people-first culture, because you're putting the best interest of those people.

Yep.

At the forefront. People first is not soft.

But I think that's right. I think you hit it right, right on the head. That's exactly what, um, what I, what I'm sensing is that it's like, you know, we want to say that, but then we don't want to, you know, have this kind of soft, mushy culture of, you know, everybody's, everybody's number one. Everybody gets a trophy at the end of the day. And that's just not— that's really not what that means.

Well, and it also doesn't mean that you're never going to make a hard decision. We make hard decisions.

Business is hard. Yeah, exactly.

It doesn't mean that, oh, we're people-first, so we're going to give everybody a 25% raise and we're going to, you know, give them unlimited PTO, which is a scam, by the way.

And yeah, oh, so much of a scam.

Does not mean any of those things. People first just means we're going to be as honest as we can be, as transparent as we can be. We're going to hold people accountable. We're going to give you an environment where you feel like you're doing your best work as often as possible. But everybody has a bad day. But a bad day is not a bad job, and a bad day is not a bad culture and a bad company. And I just, I think that way too many people confuse people first with a lack of accountability and with everything's just, oh, well, people love it there because basically the people, you know, the company and nobody makes any decisions. That's not people first. I don't want to be any part of a culture like that.

So, yeah, it's more like, okay, to me, people first is this. People first is the CEO having to make a hard decision and saying, because this is me and I have done this. So this is when I was my own company's CEO and I had to do this because of COVID Right. People first is when you go, you get to that point where you have to go to your people and you have to say, okay guys, we ran out of money. And here are the choices. We can either basically reduce everyone's paycheck by 20% for the next 6 months and try to make it through, or we can let a few people go, or we can just fold and cash you out and, you know, basically bargain basement sale, uh, and, you know, give you as much as we can. So we, you know, we can either like pay you on the way out, or we can reduce your pay and try to make it through, right? Or we can say goodbye to a couple of our buddies that, uh, you know, and, and if it's one of those three, let's make the decision together. Let's, let's decide how to sell, when to sell, how much to sell together so we get some money out of it. Or let's decide Um, you know, together, who is anybody willing to volunteer to leave, you know, and we'll take care of them as much as we can, right? Or, you know, or we all kind of were— if you, I, if you're all in on it together, let's all take a pay cut temporarily, or, you know, um, so I did, I did that and the company decided to go deferred comp.

Okay.

Um, and deferred for those people that don't necessarily know what that is, it's not exactly a very common thing, but deferred comp is where your paycheck is virtual. And you don't get the money until later, but it's kind of put aside. So it becomes part of the company's operating expense, but it doesn't really hit the bank account. And it's, you owe that money. So, you know, you have an agreement to pay that money to them. You definitely will pay it, but it's, it's kind of borrowing from your employees in a way. And it's weird, but it will help a company kind of float through some really bad times if everybody's in on it. Usually you have leaders that say, you know, they got the top, the top 10% of people in the company have the top 90% of compensation. And if they defer their comp, then that can, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily every, every employee down to the minimum wage people, but they chose that and we, and we squeaked by. So I have ran my own businesses for enough time that I've been through 3 cycles. Of recession. And let me tell you, there was— well, you probably already know this— there was a recession before this, whatever this was, that was way, way worse. It was way worse than COVID. And I don't know why people don't talk about that, but during that time is when they don't talk about it now. It's like nobody remembers who, you know, who was— I was, I was out doing, um, mortgage inspections for $200 a pop. To pay the bills. I was like, I was doing, uh, um, locum tenens in medical, which is hard, but that was like, I had to, you know, I had to get bills to pay bills. Yeah, yeah. So that was the decision that the team made, and, and we, and we squeaked by, and we came back, and, you know, we rebuilt. And then another time after COVID not after COVID hit and we went from like, well, I'm just gonna round up a number. We went from, let's just say 6 zeros in revenue to 5 zeros in revenue, which is like, if you are the CEO of a company, you're like, whoa, what just happened? Basically the bottom just fell out, right? And that time I went to the team and I said, there's really only two choices this time, right? And one of them is we just kind of call it quits, right? Um, and the other one is somebody's got to go, right? So the decision was that, um, two of us would leave and let the others run the company. And so I— my partner and I stopped taking a paycheck, and we survived for about a year and eventually we had to make the other decision, which is to fold. But again, that to me, that's people first because it's involving them in the decision. Ultimately, you're the CEO. In my case, I was the CEO and the owner of the company. I mean, I had, you know, 51% of the equity and the other 49% of the equity was amongst some of the partners. So I could just unilaterally make a decision, which is not very, you know, people first. Right. But that's what I think people first is. It just doesn't translate that way into this. I don't know. Yeah, this, this P&L-driven, KPI-driven, got to see it on a PowerPoint. The PowerPoint doesn't— you know how often people cheat? I mean, they cheat on these PowerPoints. Like, if you tell people that what we're going to measure is how many hours you work, Yeah, hours. They don't get anything else done.

They don't get more work done.

They just work more hours, right? You know, I had a business school mentor that, um, gave us the story of apple pickers in Maine. You know about this?

Maybe.

So there are, um, there's like, like a harvest season where you either get the apples before they fall to the ground, or if they fall to the ground, you can't make cider out of them. So if they fall, it's too late. So you got to grab them before they fall. And they kind of, a lot of them just sort of fall at the same time and it moves based on the climate. And so there are people who, this is their thing is they, they go and harvest apples from, from, you know, one grove to the other like that. And they can either get paid by the hour or they can get paid by the bushel. Those that get paid by the hour don't usually bring in as many apples. Those that get paid by the bushel bring in the most apples.

Yeah.

So you're kind of paying for results. And in some cases, what I see happening is the rules come through because on paper, as you said, it looks great that we're going to reduce our hourly pay. But what ends up happening is we reduce the amount of apples.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So all that to kind of come around to this other question. You can coach leaders on earning a seat at the table.

Yeah.

But in your experience, what is not going to work when you're trying to prove your value to the business in HR or in TA? What is not going to work? What gets you laughed out of the table? Um, because we know it's not the PowerPoint chart, right? You can walk in there like the example I gave you with the perfect PowerPoint chart and they can still laugh you out.

So it's not that.

It's what, what is it that, that, what is it that doesn't work? What's the biggest mistake we make?

I think there's a couple of things. I think one—

okay, I'll take more than one.

Yeah, I think one is why are we even asking for something that we were allegedly hired to do? Right? I mean, like, if you're in the role, you are at the table. So you should show up, you should speak the language, you should understand what is going on. And I mean, I had a boss once that said, if you get invited to a meeting and you don't participate, you don't get invited the next time because your participation— like, there was a strategic reason that you were part of that meeting is we wanted your insight, we wanted your feedback, we wanted to know, you know, more about your perspective in that. But for HR people that are saying, I want to be strategic, one, do you even know what that means?

For starters, that's a different question, but not what I was asking.

I mean, I don't want to go there. I don't want to go there. You hear people all the time, right? They're like, I want to be—

oh, they think it's strategy, but it's tactics.

What does that mean, right? Yeah, they think what does that mean in your business? Because it doesn't mean the same thing everywhere. No. And Don't show up to the table and expect somebody else to teach you why you're there. Like, show up to the table, understand the language of the business, understand what's important. Don't bring some initiative that you've thought up that has nothing to do with the alignment of the objectives and the strategy of the business, because that is when you're going to show you're incredibly out of touch and have no idea what's going on in the business.

Okay, so like, first of all, back up. Step 1, know the strategy and alignment of the business. Yeah. All right, so let's start with that. Let's assume you got that. Yeah. Um, and then, God, I just— I almost fell out of my chair when you said that. I think you nailed it. It's if you've been invited to the meeting, yep, participate.

Participate in the meeting.

Yeah, that's— I think maybe— do you think maybe people get invited to the meeting and they think maybe they just need to be there for whatever reason, you know, for, for looks or cover or whatever. And then when they get there, they fall victim to imposter syndrome.

Yes.

And they think, I don't really have anything important to say, right? Uh, these people are all, you know, over my head. So like, you're at the table, you got invited to the table, right? Because somebody wants your opinion and you're not expressing your opinion because you think it's not worthy.

Or you don't express your opinion or your thought because you've either been doing— like, you know how when you're, you're deep in something and you've been in it for so long that you, you're too close to the problem and you think, oh well, everybody thinks that, oh well, that's just a common sense observation, or that's a common sense— of course they've thought about that already, right? Like, this is the senior executive group of the organization, this is the C-suite, or this is the, you know, group of vice presidents, or whatever this executive leadership is, or even if it's not executive leadership, like, surely they've thought of this already. I have news for you, they have not. So even if you bring it up though, and it's something that they've already talked about, then maybe we're just readdressing it and making sure that nobody lost sight of that. And then after the meeting, they're going to discuss the meeting and they're going to say, hey, who was that that asked that really good question? Because you can tell critical thinking and problem solving are priceless skills. I'll take those over a fancy degree and whatever any day. If you show up in a meeting and you ask good questions, not asking questions for the sake of asking questions, but if you show up, you show that you're paying attention, you show that you understand the business, and you ask good questions, I'm inviting you back.

Oh my God, you just described me. You— I'm— you're totally raining on my parade right now. It's like, I have done that exact thing. I have done the exact thing of, well, they already know this.

They already know.

Why am I gonna say— why am I gonna state the obvious?

Well, right.

How do you— damn. So how do I This is real. I'm getting kind of greedy here, but like, teach me how I state the obvious. I'm thinking to myself, they already know this, and so I don't say it. So how do I talk myself into saying it? Is there a way to like start with, everybody might already know this, I don't want to look like an idiot, but—

So I always think like, okay, you make decisions with the information that you have, right? And you can't make a decision with information you don't you don't have. So if my part of this meeting is to provide more information to make sure that we make the best decision, then that's my goal. And so maybe you're in the meeting and you're like, hey, I realize I'm new here and you all have been meeting on this for however amount of time, and I wasn't privy to the prior discussions, but you know, this is kind of where— what I'm thinking about and want to make sure that this is addressed.

In the back of your mind, you're thinking they probably already know this, right? And if they probably already know it, then you have an out because they'll be like, well, yeah, we already thought— I know.

Okay, great.

Yeah, at least I brought it up. Yeah, they don't know it, then all of a sudden you have the sharpest idea they've ever seen.

And if they did already think about it, then you're like, oh good, then I asked the same questions that you asked. I thought about the same thing. I like that.

That's validating. Yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. Okay, wow.

I love it when somebody says, oh, I had that same question and I didn't want to say it. I'm like, Good. We're on the same, we're on the same wavelength then, right? Like, oh my God, that's great, right?

I gotta, I gotta tie that back to recruiting just for a second because this happened to me, uh, this week twice and last week once. So 3 times in 2 weeks has happened to me where, um, I'm, I'm leading, uh, a search committee and, um, you know, it's a, it's a very different kind of search. Yeah. And Um, for example, one of them is for governor's chair for the state. Uh, so we're talking about some stuff where like there's a lot of people involved with recommending people and stuff like that. Anyway, so this happened 3 times where I put someone on the list and I did the rubric and I did all the scoring and grading and built the dossiers and everything, and I put it all in front of the, the committee, and, um, somebody in the committee says Oh, that, that's, that's the, that's the peer of this person. That's the other, like, of course I didn't know that. Yeah. Um, because it's not exactly visible.

Right.

But they're literally basically saying you found the other person that does this. Obviously we can't hire them.

Right.

Um, but you know, but, and to me that's like, well, you had the same thought I did. That's really validating. Like to me it's not, well, I just wasted my time. To me what that says is is if I found the other person that does this, then I must be on the right track.

I'm on the right track. Exactly.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's really— I like that. Yeah, it brings it back to recruiting. It's— I don't know why it's happened so often recently. It's not something that usually happens a lot. I think maybe it's because of the scarcity of these, particularly these candidates. Yeah, um, when there's a lot more market, then it's a lot less likely that you're going to find that one person that they already You know, so maybe that's the reason why. But so leadership development that actually sticks without sticky notes, right? Leadership development that actually sticks.

Yeah.

So you've created programs that, you know, show up in stay interviews and in Bottom line metrics. What makes development efforts fall silently, like the quiet quitter, and how do you make sure that it really changes the behavior and it doesn't just kind of like, hey, we put this thing in place and then slowly just sort of fades away?

So kind of exactly what you said. It's a behavior and you need to embed it into the daily operations. You need to embed it into—

Yeah, but how? That's what I'm saying. Like, yeah. I mean, I don't know if we have enough time to, you know, break it all down, but like, so what is it that we're just not doing that, that is not allowing it to be embedded? I guess that's a terrible way to ask the question, but you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Why are we missing the mark on that?

I think that the biggest thing is making the old way still available and still accessible, because if it's easier to do it the old way, go back, they're going to do it every time, right? Like if you, so for example, performance management, let's say that you've spent lots of dollars and time and resources on putting together this system. It's embedded in your HRIS. And now, you know, you can do performance reviews in there. If I can still pull up a PDF or or if I can still pull up a piece of paper that I can print off and do it and just send it in, I'm going to do it every time. Because why would I do this new way if the old way was quicker and easier for me?

So the new way might be, but you don't know it. So you haven't learned.

So on the flip side, if my daily behavior is that I'm in this system, this system is giving me things that are making my job better and easier as a leader. Then doing one more thing in the system, well, that's a system I'm already in. That's a system my people already use. That's a system that, that is already embedded into our operation of the business versus now, oh well, that's, that's messy, and oh well, I can't see the trend of my people over time. I can't see how I measure up with other people in the other leaders in the organization, you know, over time. If I can't see that because what I'm doing isn't part of the system, then it's going to retrain my behavior.

Okay, so let me translate this because, um, well, it's expected of me. I think a lot of people appreciate kind of my like Cut through the crap.

I like it.

Approach.

Yeah.

Um, you're basically saying take the training wheels off.

Yeah. And don't make it an option.

Yeah. Take the training wheels off. You're saying it's not an option. Okay. We moved from side— moving sidewalk to bicycle. Uh, we're leaving the moving sidewalk there for those of you that prefer to use that. That's not going to work. So if you just go like, guys, we have replaced the moving sidewalk. It is no longer available. You have no choice but to use the bicycle and somebody comes, where's my sidewalk? Sorry, no more sidewalk. I mean, you're literally saying take the sidewalk out from under them.

And we are also providing training and support. We encourage feedback. We want you part of the process. What was it about the old process that you liked so much? What can we do to integrate that into the new process?

Okay. Yeah. So that's just good building.

Yes.

Right. So let's assume that you've built something that you've already taken all that feedback into consideration and, you know, you're doing it the right way. But then I think the Achilles heel is what you're saying is, um, you're doing it the right way, but then you're always— there's still an escape valve, there's still an alternative. Like, well, if you have any hard— you know, do you remember back in— it wasn't that long ago for me, but it's probably completely alien to most of our listeners here. Do you remember a time when you had to go into the store to fill out an application?

Yes.

Yeah. It doesn't feel like it was that long ago. Yeah. And they replaced that with an online application.

Right.

And people were like freaking out that candidates weren't going to be able to apply.

Right.

So they allowed the online application to be like— so we had essentially still branches and facilities that were taking paper applications, right? And, um, it became, it became a nightmare because we had to then scan them in and, and all that stuff, right? It kind of, it was like we had to just rip that out, and so we completely removed that Right. And in order to answer the problem, or which really was a perceived problem, we just said, okay, fine, you can have an application in the store, only it's a kiosk on a computer that they have to fill out.

Sure.

Like, okay, but it's just not going to be paper. Like, you know what, we're not going to send them home to apply. Well, they're not going to apply. They're not going to know how— what if they don't have a computer at home? Okay, valid, right? All they— can they, can they go to a library?

No.

Okay, fine, valid. All these things are valid, but still, we're just not— you would not gonna— it cannot be on paper, right, where we then have to put it in a file and then do Iron Mountain, you know, destruction and all this other stuff. Like, it just— we can't have Social Security numbers and, you know, stuff like that sitting around in filing cabinets. In the modern 8. So we came up with that compromise, but we had to— what you're saying is put in the rails or the safeguards that prevent them from using the old system, but also give them, uh, an alternative to the new system that's compliant with the new system. So it's not just take it— that it's not just take out the training wheels, but maybe also provide some, you know, bike riding lessons.

Yeah. And also it starts at the top. If you're— I've been part of organizations where, not naming names, because I love them all, right? But I've been part of organizations where the new process, the new system, whatever, was for everyone else. And maybe the C-suite wasn't even doing performance reviews. Right, let alone using the system. And if you're not showing from the top, this is the way that we operate, this is the way that we're doing this, from the CEO on down, it will not be adopted. Because if they can't look up and say, oh well, my boss is doing it, oh well, my boss's boss is doing it, right, then it's not important.

It's okay, they don't do it, so we don't have to.

Exactly. I've worked in more than one organization where I didn't get a performance review, and it was just simply because of who I reported to, and they didn't do performance reviews.

Yeah.

And it was like, hey, we've all got to be doing this, right? And they're like, yeah, it's fine, I talk to my people all the time. Make me scream. Yeah.

All right, so let's switch it up a little bit. So you've got, you've got a budget, you've got a blank slate, and then you've got a PE board breathing down your neck. Um, so the PE firm just dropped you into their latest project.

Okay.

Uh, nothing's in place.

Okay.

You got 90 days to show some impact. What's your holy crap checklist?

Meeting with people first. OK, I'm understanding what the culture and subcultures are. I'm understanding what the biggest pain points are. So are we doing a bunch of hiring? Do we need, you know, an onboarding process put in place first? Have we had people in roles forever and we're looking to do some internal promotions? So maybe we need to be giving some feedback on performance, like I need to understand, again, what are the priorities of the business so that I can align my initial initiatives to that to be most effective. And I want to know what has been working that needs to continue. And I want to know what's broken that can make some quick fixes to make a real impact.

You ever, you ever hear of that model? I think it might be used in software development. Stop, start, continue. Sounds like that. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

So what do you deliberately ignore as you're doing this? You know, what are the things that maybe are distracting to others, but that, you know, when you, when you're putting this 90-day effort in to show impact, what are you deliberately not going to do?

Anything that is going to be too much structure that won't be flexible and won't be able to scale. Things that are— if things are too rigid, then people will break. If they're too loose, then chaos takes over. So you got to kind of balance that structure and understanding that we want to build just enough enough structure in place so that we can be aligned and things can be scalable, but not so much that it's, it's complex. And that now we focus so much on the, the structure and maybe these processes, and we're— it's set in stone. And now if we need to be able to iterate or pivot or whatever, that we can't do it. We always need to be able to remain in order to be scalable.

Right. Because that's one of the biggest hurdles in PE-backed companies is that they want to scale. They want to—

Yes.

Yeah. This is a growth spurt. This is a sprint, maybe. Right.

Right.

And so the company might have been running a marathon.

Do a full, you know, do a full, you know, re-release and a redo later.

But that's cool if you say, hey, you know, based on feedback and based on Right. We put this in, we didn't have this information. So yeah, that makes sense. I get that. Yeah, I get that.

Yeah. But if you're like, I'm not doing onboarding, I'm not surveying my people, I'm not making sure that our recruiting process is not a, you know, 90-day black hole where nobody gets any feedback. If you're saying that you're sacrificing all that because you're working on the handbook or because you're doing something else that is not a direct value add to the people in the business, then you've missed the point.

Okay. All right. What else are— what else are we missing? What else are we missing when we— because I just want to help listeners out there that maybe haven't— this is their first time in a, you know, this kind of environment where they may be were part of a company that recently got acquired, or, you know, by PE, or so what else are we missing? It's, it's an, it's an alien environment, I think, for folks. It's not very— yeah, it's, it's very different than, like I said, the other models. So what else are we not looking at that we should be paying attention to with regard to, you know, HR, um, development and, and talent acquisition once you, uh, become, you know, PE-backed?

Make a good mix of observing and respecting existing culture and process with coming in and trying to change everything. Because you may have done something a certain way in prior organization, and it might not be an applicable transfer into your new environment.

OK.

And some people are really emotionally attached to some of the things that they're doing. So get an understanding as well for that. Like, don't be the tone-deaf HR person that comes in and is like, oh, I know better than you do about the company that you've worked for for 25 years because this new company that also just got to know you in the last 6, 9, 12 months, whatever, they know better than you do about how this should run. Like, no, you should defer to people and have a deference of You're in your role for a reason. You have skills. You have at least the finger on the pulse of the culture. You have all that historical knowledge of why our customers love us. What's our competitive advantage? Like, why do we win? And understand that. And also understand the people who have influence without authority, because those people need to be your champions. When you want to go and make changes. Find out how it's going to go over before you start to try to make suggestions for initiatives. Find out where people are struggling, and, and if they are not talking to the executive team or they're not talking to their managers, find out why about that as well, and then work to be a presence and a support so that people— you can build trust. Because if you don't build trust, you can't do anything.

Well, building trust is not, um, yeah, that's— it's a challenging proposition because when you have a— if, if you have a good experience and things are shifting, it's a little bit easier. It's a lot easier to build trust. But when you have something that it's just part of the reason the PE is coming in is because things weren't working in some areas and people are carrying a bit of a grudge. It's a lot harder.

Yeah, but if they were there, they, they aren't blind to that. So you can say, yeah, okay, now this area of the business was struggling, right?

We're hitting the reset button.

Okay, we're gonna have to make some tough decisions. Like, that again goes back to be as transparent as you possibly can. Sometimes you can't be, and that is just like I called the burden of information. Sometimes you have information that you cannot share and it's gonna eat you up and keep you up at night. And sometimes that is your role.

If it doesn't let you up and keep you up at night, you might be a psychopathic narcissist. Just saying.

And I've worked for some of those too, so, you know, I've been married.

Oh my God, I mean, that one in— that's awesome. Um, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's tough because it's in a corp— in a corporation where you have a lot of established processes, you know, they're publicly traded or, um, they have, you know, they're privately owned but they've been around for a long time and there's, there's not there's not private equity coming in, it's changing trajectory, um, has to follow a more rigid path because, you know, if you're, if you're being audited and you're publicly traded, you know, that's, that's— you can't just all of a sudden like, you know, hit the brakes and make a sharp left turn. But with, with PE, then there is that, you know, you are under due ownership, so you kind of can do that. You kind of can, can, you know, you can make those sharp turns. So that may be an advantage I hadn't thought of. Yeah.

Well, and if you've, if you've built trust and you say upfront, right, we're going to be making some changes, put your seatbelts on, we're making a sharp left turn, right? We're going to be making some really tough decisions for the business and I just need you to trust that we have the best interest of the business at heart and we're making the best decisions with the information that we have right now. And I welcome your feedback and I welcome you to share with us, you know, how that impacts you. And I mean, if it, if it results in, you know, a big layoff, know that that decision was not made lightly.

Okay, well, I've learned a lot. Um, it's definitely been helpful for some of my, you know, bringing around some of my experiences. Um, I know we're getting pretty close to wrapping up here, so I'd love to close out with— well, there's, there's a question I have to ask everybody on the show, but I, I'd also love to close out with something a little bit different. Most of the time I, I ask for a thought that we could take with us over the weekend and kind of introspectively ask ourselves. But, um, with— since, you know, the topic is a little bit off the beaten path for me here, I'd like to ask something a little bit different. Um, what's the, uh, what's the one strong opinion that you hold that others might disagree with? You know, the unpopular opinion that you hold fast. I mean, you're not, you know, not something that you're like, well, you know, I debate this, but like, what is one thing that you kind of, you stand your ground, you know, the proverbial hill, right? That others often disagree with.

I can hear myself saying, and this is the hill I'm gonna die on.

Yeah, I didn't want to say that, but that's kind of what— yeah, that's what I meant. That's what I meant.

What's that? Yeah, um, I will not be talked down from And this is again something that you think, oh, everybody knows that. I will not be talked down from the importance of having one-on-ones with your team. The people that say, I talk to my people all the time, I don't need one-on-ones— you do. You need to have regular, scheduled, structured time with anybody that reports to you, even if it's cross-functional, like it's like you're, you know, whatever level and you've got, you know, group presidents or business leaders or something. You need to do that because that is where you establish establish the relationship, and that is where you're going to establish the trust. That meeting is not for work and for meetings and for—

it's not performative. It's not, you know, it's not check a box.

No, that meeting is strictly to build the relationship. And I think that that is how I've been able to build relationships quickly, develop rapport quickly. Because I focus on the relationship first and foremost.

Well, that's, um, that's a big hill. I, I think I've been guilty myself of, of, I know them really well, don't really need to have weeklies. Um, but then I've also found that I had to go back and reinstitute them. Um, so yeah, I think I've been guilty of, of doing that and then, and then undoing it. Um, But I think that the danger is when you fall as a leader, you fall into the lazy pattern of relationship building for nothing other than just relationship building. And then you have the, the, the lies that come with that of, yeah, we're all just one big happy family. No, we're not.

You can't fire your family. Quit calling your work.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And that's what happens with these. Perfunctory, you know, meetings that are like, well, we're going to have these meetings. We end up talking about how the kids are. And it's like, yeah, that's, that's dangerous ground because then you start treating people like family and you may be really close, maybe a tight team.

Right.

But I'm not a fan of that. Yeah, personally.

Well, and also respect people's boundaries. I might not know you and trust you enough to talk to to you about that. Maybe I do want to just talk about work at first because I'm still trying to feel out if I can trust you or not. The worst thing that you want to do is to violate somebody's boundaries and try to get kind of too personal too soon.

Just too personal, period. I mean, geez, I've been in, you know, team meetings where the leader is talking about their fur babies and how they're so important to them. And then other people start pitching in with their fur babies, and they're like, yeah, my fur babies are like children. And I'm chatting with other parents going, are you— you know, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, are you kidding me? Like, there is a very— don't talk to me about dogs and cats being like children that are in the emergency room with, with life-saving surgery. Like, it's just not the same. Or conversely, when they're all sitting around talking about, you know, their, their kids, and there's people that have no intention of having kids. And it's just like, it's, it's not— it's too personal. I don't know if that's really it, right? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Don't— I like what you're saying about that. Don't, don't skip on the one-on-ones, but also at the same time, don't make the one-on-ones a chit-chat. It's not gonna—

and the number one way to do that is to let the direct report start the meeting. They set the tone. You're not asking them personal questions, right? Like, let them start, and then if they bring personal stuff up, then, right, they start it, right? So if they bring— if they come in and they're like, in the hospital or whatever, man, I had a really rough weekend, and, and, you know, whatever, then, then you can match that. Okay, then that's what we'll talk about. That's a good point. Yeah. And that— then you're not like, so how many kids do you have? Oh, I don't have any children, and I had a you know, whatever catastrophic event. And then you're like, oh, sorry.

That's really useful. I think don't skip the one-on-ones and don't make it and don't just force yourself to have them and be, you know, be like idle chatter. So who should be our next guest? Who would you like to see on the show? Take a chance. Doesn't even have to be somebody. You don't even have to necessarily think that they'll accept, but I will go out there and invite them. Who do you think would add value? To, to the conversation, if you will.

So I have a good friend, Kyra Matkovich, and she's super busy. And we used to be on like the— do you remember when it was like the SHRM bloggers and then we were influencers and then we were whatever, and then that whole group got defunct? I met her through that and we've been friends for the last like 12, 13 years ever since. Like we're true friends that met on Twitter. But she has a phenomenal perspective on people and leadership. And yeah, she's a, she's a wonderful—

So say a little bit slower so I can spell it.

Kyra, K-Y-R-A, Matkovich.

Yeah. Thanks. I'll reach out. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time that you spent with us today. This was, this was very, at least for me personally, again, I'm being selfish, but for me personally, I learned a lot, uh, and validated some things that I didn't really know I needed validating. Um, all right, well folks, everybody, that, that wraps up our week. Next up, we have Bob Beck coming back. This is, uh, he'd be a repeat offender actually. He's been on the show a long time ago. We worked together a couple times, and he's, um, uh, in, in the tech space, has a lot to offer with regard to, you know, optimizing your recruiting and working in some pretty weird areas where, you know, the talent is really hard to approach and find. So it's going to be an interesting show. Hopefully we'll see you here for that. Until then, thanks again, everybody.