Paul Abrahms Live on Shally's Alley

All right, all right, everybody, happy Friday! It's the first Friday in February, Friday, February 2nd, and you are live on Shelly's Alley. Once again, I am demoted from flight duty. I don't have my flight background yet and still working on getting a machine that can handle that kind of processing power. Believe it or not, for those of you that know me to be very technical, I'm actually on a 10-year-old computer right now, which is, well, let's just say really embarrassing. Hence the lack of rendered backgrounds. But I can still do a live video and I can still talk to you and I can still have really special cool guests. Like my guest this week, Paul Abrams. Paul and I go way, way back. I think we met at a conference in Chicago like 20 years ago or something like that. Do you even remember that, Paul? What was that?

You know, I think actually it was a conference in Atlanta, and we're actually out of town because you gave me a ride to the airport, but It was a recruiting sourcing conference and we kind of connected and I was attracted to your experience in sourcing and best practices around that. And I remember bringing you to Chicago for a learning lab with STAR Chicago and you gave a couple of presentations in the suburbs in Chicago about, you know, how to find talent. So I think that's where it all started.

Yeah, it all started in Atlanta. I totally— yeah, if I not— I had not, uh, remembered that one, but I remember the Chicago. That was, that was a fun trip. We went to that, um, pizza place that had the deep dish pizza that you said was like the original deep dish pizza.

Lou Malnati's. Lou Malnati's.

Lou Malnati's. Yeah, with the yellow kind of yellowish dough. And you're like, don't order a full pizza because you can't eat the whole thing. And I'm like, come on. And then, and then We— I barely had one slice and I was totally full. That was, that was great. Yeah. Well, so let me tell people a little bit about you and then, you know, we kind of get things going here. So Paul is essentially, is a recruiting talent acquisition leader and an expert in the industry who works for a company called Huron, and they are a consulting firm. It's a global consulting organization. And when you think consultants, you know, this is, this is, this is what they do, right? You typically think about consultants that come in and do audits, and they do, you know, planning and strategy and all that. That's what they do. And Paul's been there for actually most of the time that I've known you, been there for 13 years. Is that right?

Right, right. Just finished my 13th year.

Wow.

Yeah, we, um, we actually, um, we do a lot of work in the healthcare industry, the higher ed market, and then really any, you know, commercial industry around process improvement, technology, strategy, growth and innovation, and a lot of stuff in technology. So most of my background's been in technology recruiting since I started in executive search and have worked for some of the larger brands and then smaller emerging companies and have been able to deploy that at Huron, which is about a billion-dollar company and growing to $2 billion. And anyway, that's my background.

Which is for consulting, that's a lot. Now, I, oops, I put your, let me cut that other part of the beginning. We don't need that. I put your LinkedIn profile up here so people can connect with you. And it was, I included the HTTP, which I don't usually do. But so you said something I actually, I did not know about this, even though we've known each other for a long time. You said you started in executive search. So how did you actually get into Executive search was your first job in talent acquisition, right?

Right.

And how'd you get into that? I mean, that's a pretty decent job to be a starting job.

Well, I actually started in sales. I was in the insurance business back in Ohio, and then when I moved to Chicago, I had some friends that were in recruiting and started having some conversations and was interested in technology and ended up going to a retained firm that was doing search work with corporate organizations and consulting around technology positions. So we were either building out an IT organization from the top down or doing work for some of the Big Eight firms at the time. And I started as a junior recruiter and kind of worked my way up. And then when consulting started to take off in the early '90s, I pivoted to PeopleSoft's first business partner, a boutique firm out of San Francisco that was looking for a recruiter. And they liked the fact that I knew executive search. So it's kind of learned me how consulting firms operate and did that for 4 or 5 years and then pivoted into larger organizations. I went to Deloitte and ran recruiting in the central region for them. And along the way have been both in and outside of search as well as in and outside of like corporate environments. And so when I landed at Huron, it was kind of a blend of different types of experiences I had around technology, consulting, and even, you know, the corporate roles and product development and things like that.

So it's a very, it's a very broad background in different types of recruiting in different fields. You were even in banking, I think, for a short while, and for JPMorgan, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I was with Bank One, and then they got bought by JPMorgan. So I kind of went through that transition. And that was the time that insourcing was in, the economy was weak, and Jamie Dimon had come in and decided to eliminate the consultants, and they wanted to hire 2,000-3,000 people in a year. And I was fortunately hired as one of the recruiters on a 20-person team to help build out the technology organization for them. So I got to use my tech skills but also understand, you know, how a bank runs and worked across the organization both on the business side and then pulled me into some of the executive search roles that they had going. So it was a great experience that I was able to leverage that experience as I've gone on to other roles.

Very— so you were in Ohio, Indiana, and then now you're in Illinois. And one of the things that, that you're very passionate about, and you talk a lot about, and we've talked about, we've discussed in the past, and actually part of the reason that you brought me out to StartChicago is to essentially improve the whole TA process. And you mentioned that you wanted to talk about what makes a good recruiter, or I should say what makes a recruiter a good recruiter. So do you want to start there?

Sure. Well, first of all, I think most people get into recruiting because they, they, you know, they're interested, they're curious, they want to help others. And I guess that's kind of how I got into it too. Just the one-on-one relationship building that you get is, is really great, and then the opportunity to really learn about business. And so I think really good recruiters are inquisitive. They want to learn, they want to, you know, understand what people do, and then how does it play to the environments they represent. So I find that really good recruiters either have that intellectual curiosity, and it's really required when you're navigating, when you think of the whole search process from really understanding what the requirements are, what the market is, available pool of talent, how you're going to go find it, really understanding what your business is about, how do you represent that, and then really having a capability and understanding of what understanding the human dynamic, because it's less about, you know, the job that I have that I'm trying to fill. It's more about really understanding what your client or hiring managers are looking for. But then how do you transfer that into a relationship with someone that's not looking for a job, get them excited about the opportunity, be able to differentiate it, and then the whole part of orchestrating the process, you know, on the back end. So when the candidate comes in the door, you're able to differentiate your brand, you're able to make it a seamless process for the candidate, prep them each way, you know, through the process and the workflows, and then also coach, you know, your hiring managers on what the candidate's capabilities are and really be that facilitator to make the magic happen.

Facilitator. Okay, so let me try to pull up, pull out a couple of things from there. So, um, I'm sensing some bullet points on what makes a, what makes a good recruiter. There's, there's a drive, there's a curiosity, and that's evident when recruiters ask "Why?" and "How?" and kind of get to the bottom rather than just sort of take orders, right. So we know, we've known for a long time that order-taking is not, is not a great business skill in general. But in recruiting in particular, it's going beyond the just what's on in black and white, right, on paper, right. So So that's one. Then there's, you mentioned a little bit, and I want to get into this, more knowledge about HR and people and organizations. But there's a counterpoint to that in the industry. And I want to see how you feel about this. A lot of recruiters feel like they're not HR. In other words, like they sometimes even take offense, like, "Oh, I'm not an HR; I'm a recruiter. HR is completely different." I've, I learned a long time ago— been doing this for a long time, right? I've been doing this for more than 20 years. You've been doing it longer than I have. And many, many years ago, when I was at larger organizations, I realized that recruiting is definitely part of HR. It's just a different specialty. Just like in other professions, there's specializations. But it definitely is part of HR because it is dealing with the people. And it's, more importantly, it's dealing with external talent, necessarily. And that's an area that HR generally doesn't deal with. Most of HR is internal. Some of it is external. And recruiting, a lot more of it is external, but it's still part of it. What's your reaction or your response to recruiters that say, "I'm not HR. That's not— I don't want to be part of HR." Right.

Well, I think historically, people think of HR as like policy procedures, you know, the police to monitor best behaviors and that kind of thing. And there's a component of employee relations to making sure that, you know, we— you manage risk for the organization. So, my sense is that the more that I've worked within organizations, the more I realize that, you know, the HR team, which includes the compensation team, the HR business partners that are, you know, interfacing with the business leaders, and the total rewards team, if you don't really fit into that and you think that you're a separate function, you're really all integrated. So when we go to solve a problem for a client, it's really understanding, you know, where's the business going? What do we need to make happen? There's a lot of challenges from the standpoint of the war for talent where you need to be competitive in the marketplace. So if you're viewing yourself as like an island, it's really hard to navigate within a corporate environment. And so, you know, when I started in search, it's true, I thought that, you know, the HR people were a roadblock because I thought I was competing against them. And my view for, you know, really strong internal TA team is that you really partner with the HR team, and they're actually needed to help you get your job done and more efficiently. You know, if you get a new role and it's priced too low for the market, recruiters have good insights around what's going on in the marketplace. So they need us as much as we need them. So it's really more of a holistic thing. And I think the role of the recruiter has changed where You know, when I started, it was probably more just get the jobs done, just fill the position.

Fill the jobs, fill the jobs.

Yeah. And now it's really— it requires— there's more complication. It's really a team environment. You know, here on— we call our HR team kind of the village, and we come together to solve problems. And so, not— you know, my role is around running a talent acquisition team. But, you know, I also think it's about being a brand ambassador for ambassador for my company, helping onboard new leaders in the organization, help them figure out what the strategy is to identify the right people for the role. So there's a lot of components to it, which actually makes it really interesting and challenging and fun because you actually learn about the business of running your business more than just being someone that knows how to recruit talent.

That's right. And that is actually— so, you know, You remember the nonprofit organization that I ran where we would get people, you know, trained in sourcing and get them corporate jobs? You remember that, the Sourcing Institute Foundation? So one of the things that we frequently spoke about when talking to individuals that were interested in going into recruiting, because they would ask, why recruiting, right? Why? I used to be a printer. Why go into recruiting? And one of the biggest reasons is that I would explain, in recruiting, you have a unique centralized position that allows you to view into all parts of the organization. If you're at a company long enough, as a recruiter, you get to see procurement and risk and accounting and finance and marketing and sales. And maybe, maybe not if you're one of 500 recruiters, and it's a very you know, large organization. But if you're 1 of 4, or 1 of 12, or, you know, you will see so much about, you know, what happens behind the closed doors in board meetings. You'll see about strategy. You'll learn about all these different aspects of business, you know, down to— when I was at Coca-Cola, I learned about manufacturing and environmental impact of production. And I would never learn that from there's not any other job that I can think of where you have that much exposure into the entire organization. So I think that holistic view, having the view and also learning it.

I agree. And, you know, you're also learning about a lot from your candidates. So the more you specialize in a particular area, you know, you learn about, you know, what if it's in the tech space, what does an architect do? What does a, you know, web developer do? And it's more about not the technology, but what they're actually creating for clients and businesses in different industries. And it's more about the It's like getting an MBA of, you know, whatever, you know, area you're focusing in, which you're—

that's a really good way to look at it. Yeah, it's like an MBA, a real-life crash course on the job MBA, even probably even better than most MBAs, really, because you're getting exposure to the way things really happen. And you see the, you know, the exceptions to the rules and the reaction to things that happen. So, all right, so we got curiosity. The, you know, getting to the bottom of it. We got this holistic view of really, you really are, at least in corporate, maybe when you're in a search firm or an RPO, it's much more difficult to do this. But when you're inside in the corporation, and you're, you know, an in-house recruiter, having a knowledge of the different components of HR, even though you may not want to be in payroll and benefits, but being able to go to those people and ask questions and, you know, that connectivity is important. So you got curiosity, you got the knowledge of HR and the whole organization. And also, I would, I think you sort of touched on this, but also you would be able to protect the company from risk by having knowledge of some of these areas, right? And also be able to align with corporate strategy, which I think sometimes gets passed over by recruiters who tend to lean towards the more tactical, let's fill the job. It's not answering the bigger question, I'll just give you an example. If a recruiter is not aware of the overarching strategy of the company, and they have 2 jobs that they have to fill, both jobs are always going to be the most important job, right? If you ask the hiring manager, "Is your job, is your job really important?" Of course, they're going to say yes. If you go to your boss, "Hey, which of these 2 jobs do I need to work on first?" Your boss is going to say, "You got to work on both." You know, everybody's going to tell you, you got to work on both. Well, now extend that to 40 jobs. You have 40 jobs. Well, you don't have time to spend, you know, on all 40 jobs. So you have to prioritize. How do you prioritize? Number 1 way to prioritize is to work on the jobs that are most critical to the business and have the most impact or the most alignment to strategic objectives. So if you know what those are, then you have no problem prioritizing your jobs. But if you don't know what those are, it gets really difficult. So we got that as the 3rd one. And then you touched on this. I want to expand on it. Focus on the candidate's needs. As opposed to focus on what? So, well, oftentimes you leave with—

excuse me— you lead with, uh, I get choked up when I talk about this stuff.

Yeah, yeah, right. You really feel it.

Yeah. Um, you know, it's like in, in sales, like, if, if we're approaching someone that is looking for a job, that's easy. You know, they've done some homework on us and they know what they're looking for. But oftentimes we're asked to find candidates that aren't looking. We're looking for a passive candidate. So there's a whole lifecycle of what it takes to build that trust and relationship. So first, you have to do the research to understand what's the pool of talent you're going to go get. Secondly, you have to figure out how you're going to get them to bite and get interested, and then you have to bring them in the door and kind of orchestrate that. So there's a skill set and capability around how do you navigate that that's really critical, and it's very similar to sales. There's a guy by the name of Chris Little who I got to know years ago, and he wrote a book called The Accidental Salesperson, and he has a methodology. It's probably baked into a lot of sales methodologies, but there's basically 5 steps to a relationship, and it starts with, you know, first making that introduction and what is it that, you know, your prospect is going to need to hear in order to trust you to want to engage with you. And so when I think of a successful recruiter, just getting the conversation back to that, I think of really effective recruiters are able to understand what the candidate or prospect is thinking and build confidence and trust and credibility that it's worthwhile spending time with me. And then understanding your value proposition and what differentiates you to get them in the door to have those conversations to, you know, to begin the process of recruiting. And then all the touchpoints that are important around, you know, prepping the candidate, prepping the hiring team, making sure that, like, if you know all the things that could derail or go wrong in their interview process, can you kind of manage that into your workflows? Then you're going to have a more successful outcome rather than getting to the end of the process where you didn't do the right thing at the front end or, you know, give clarity around the expectations of the role. And then the other person I would call out who's always been my hero is a guy named Lou Adler. And Lou's been around forever talking about, you know, what motivates a candidate to, you know, want to move forward. And he always talks about, you know, you need to have a 30% delta between where you are and where you're going to go. And that could be in money, financial reward, or it could be an opportunity, or the opportunity to learn, grow, develop, and work with good people. And that, that conversation really good recruiters have at the front end of the process to hook candidates in getting interested if it's a good match. And then also being transparent, and if it's not a good match, not pushing people through the process because, you know, again, it really comes to meeting the candidate where they are, and you got to ensure that you really understand what their needs are, whether they're motivating factors, would they be a good cultural fit for the organization, and kind of be that filter. And I think really effective recruiters do that really well.

So, in other words, let me rephrase this a little bit. Filling the job is important, but filling the job with the wrong person— and you're not necessarily doing that on purpose, you're just filling the job and you're not focusing on the, the best possible hire— what you're saying essentially is a successful hire doesn't mean the outcome of "I filled the job," right? That is not successful. That is getting the job done of filling the job, but a successful hire, as you're defining it, is bringing somebody on board that is not going to be leaving soon, that's not going to be leaving in 90 days, right?

Quality, focused on the right things.

Yeah. And they have potential for, you know, advancement and all that. Even if, you know, there are times when the organization has a 2-year plan, we need to hire this person to do something that's going to get done in 2 years. But still, what are they going to do after that 2 years? You know, and bring somebody in that fits with the culture and all that. So successful hires, more than just fill job. I get that. So now we have, we have 5. We have the curiosity, we have knowledge of HR and the organization, we have focusing on the candidate's needs, and then we have focusing on the business needs to make sure that the hire is a good match and is not just, you know, the best available at the time. But there's one more, I think, right? And I would say that has to do with that has to do with the drive. You called it being self-motivated. Tell me more, a little bit more about that. It's, to me, it's kind of, some people call it grit or perseverance or whatnot. So how is that different for recruiting than for other jobs that do also require it?

Well, the biggest challenge I think is that you've got a lot of priorities. So if you're not a fast-growing organization, you've got a lot on your plate. You know, you got to get organized. And the challenge is that every transaction or relationship you have with a candidate is it may feel like a transaction for you because you have 40 jobs you have to fill and you have to get them filled efficiently. But from a candidate's perspective, this is the biggest decision they're making in their life. At the time. So you have to be sensitive to that and understand that. And then you do all the magic and then for some reason the deal falls through. The candidate has another opportunity or they get a counteroffer or something like that. And to me, grit is just realizing that—

Situation changes.

Yeah, it's not gonna always happen the way you think it will. Or maybe the business changes and we thought we had an opportunity and for some reason we don't have it. And the good recruiters navigate from it. They don't take it personally, they just kind of persevere. And then the other thing that I think has helped me along the way is it's always that effort of just one more. So if I'm ending my day, I always do, well, let's make one more call. And, you know, or I feel like I'm blocked, you know, well, maybe I should do this and try this avenue. And so it's the good recruiters just don't give up. They have a desire to win and they just lean in as much as it takes. And sometimes there's a sacrifice to that. And, you know, the challenge we have today is, you know, you want to have work-life balance and you want to be home for your families and have a life. And then the pressure of trying to deliver and win. It's always been a personal challenge for me to how do I manage that? Because, you know, it's the type of profession that can suck you in and you keep going and going because you're never done. And, but the recruiters kind of, have, you know, become successful realize when they need to turn it on and focus and lean in and have that grit, not give up, and then balance it with don't take it too seriously. You know, we're not building rocket ships, but if you're working for an aerospace company, you are.

Unless you're working at Lockheed. Yeah.

But, you know, that's what I mean by having the grit.

So there's a little bit of me that thinks maybe that's kind of like hardened light-heartedness, go with the roll, you know, you go with the punches, that kind of thing, as well as grit, right? So like gritting your teeth and just bearing through it in a stoic way may not necessarily be the best. It's good to have that perseverance, but it's also good to have the thicker skin where you just, you know, it is what it is. It's life. Candidate had something change in their life that It's not me. I didn't mess up the hire. The company didn't mess up the hire. It just was the situation. So yeah, I like that.

One other, one other comment that comes from that is that, like, there are ways you can shortcut and be more successful. Like, there's the one thing that I would go back to when I'm trying to solve a problem of how to fill a position. The first thing that is helpful to understand what its historical, historical success look like. So if you're given you know, 20 positions to fill, and you know that typically, you know, 40% of them are coming from employee referrals, 25% are coming from job postings, and, you know, 15 or 20% are coming from direct sourcing, what you may really have to do is just figure out how do you break it into the job families and where do you think you can get your talent from.

Which jobs?

Yeah, focus on the things that matter affecting the more difficult ones that you may have to get source on. And then if there's a sourcing team or you've got support on your team, calling that out earlier rather than getting to the endgame where, you know, in 30, 60 days if you're not successful, you know, you're going to have a problem because you're starting it all over again.

It's too late then.

Yeah.

Yep.

I think the good recruiters realize when, oh, this is going to be a big ask, and they start thinking about what's my plan B and my plan C. Do I need additional resources or help? And being transparent with your customer, your hiring manager, or your recruiting team around when you feel like your load is too much and, you know, how do you navigate? I think the more seasoned recruiters are able to navigate that.

Yeah. So basically it's being— it's alignment, right?

Right.

Yeah, OK. All right.

And planning and anticipating and reading the tea leaves as to, you know, what's really happening and how do we, how are we going to make sure that we get ahead of successful outcome?

Oh, that's bit me, that's bit me in the rear end quite a few times over my career. You know, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can get this done." And then, you know, "I'm going to have some candidates for you in 4 weeks." And 4 weeks come around and I have no candidates. You know, of course, what the hiring manager thinks is I didn't do my job. Doesn't matter how long I, I worked for that job 4 weeks straight, you know, no sleep, and, and it still didn't get anything. But they don't know that. They think I was on the beach, you know, drinking Mai Tais. Yeah.

And the advantage we have today is like there's more intelligence, you know. When you and I started the business, we didn't have LinkedIn. We had to do—

we didn't have the data.

Yeah, right. Now we have the data, we have market intelligence, we can give us insight as to where the talents Who are— we can do talent mapping. We can do a lot of things that we couldn't do before. And so part of this is thinking strategically around how we're going to solve the problem and how can I make sure that what I'm doing is really productive and efficient. And the coaching I would give to, like, junior recruiters, you know, talk to the seasoned recruiters that have done this well. Find people within your organization that seem to have figured it out. Everyone has strengths on your team. You've got some people who are really good at the applicant tracking or the CRM systems. Others are good at time management and and the automation. Some are good at using, have a stronger network. And so rather than working in a vacuum, you know, make sure you're leveraging the resources around you to help you solve the problem so you can deliver on what you said you were going to do.

And that, you know, that comes from necessity. So I want to add that as a consultant myself, you know, I had my consulting practice for many, many years, and worked with a lot of different companies, I very often get asked how to improve the skills of the entire team, especially as a trainer, and then they want me to teach these things to everybody where it's not necessary for everybody, right? Like, what I mean, just to get specific here, you've got 5 recruiters. One of them is extremely adept plowing through 2,000 applicants in the ATS. All the jobs they fill, they fill literally through just applicants in the ATS. They don't need to learn how to source because they're not working in jobs that need sourcing. And you have another one who's really adept at LinkedIn, and they send out in-mails and they get great responses. They have learned how to work the system to get the high response rates. So I— they, they bring me in and they say, can you tell— can you teach the first person how to do LinkedIn and teach the second person how to plow through the ATS? Well, yes, but they don't, they don't need that, right? It's not, it's not— if the job requires LinkedIn, then maybe assign that job to the recruiter that already knows how to do that, you know, or, or have them partner, because it's not necessary to teach all the skills to everybody. Necessarily, you know, that's why I created an instrument that tells me what the gaps are in individuals so that I can actually work on those gaps. And only after diagnosing it with the, with the manager of the team and say, OK, is this a recruiter, you know, yet they don't know how to use Google. OK, do they need to know how to use Google? Are they going to use? They might in the future. OK, so we can teach that to them as a formative skill, but it's not necessary today, right? That happens a lot where companies want to square peg everyone, even though some of those, you know, people by necessity have advanced their skills in other areas.

So what we've done is we've— it's what we had to do this a year or two ago when things were heated and everyone was losing recruiters because there's such a demand. And so we had to rebuild the team, and we actually asked for feedback from our team, like, what do you want us to start, stop, and discontinue doing?

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah, and one of the feedback was, you know, folks want more training. We brought in more junior folks onto the team. And so we actually created like a couple of TA days and we continue to do that. And it's really asking for insight as to what are the areas where you feel like you've got gaps and want to learn from. And then we've taken people on the team that have that expertise and they've done a presentation and created materials that can be used kind of as your playbook as to how do you get better at those types of things. So, continue, you know, when you think of like what's the skill set or capability you're looking for really good recruiters, it's that ability to continue to learn. And we have like really senior people on our team that are probably the ones that are most interested in learning more, you know, and like especially now in the age of AI and what's emerging and the things that you can do more efficiently. If you're not staying on top of your game, if you're not investing and trying to learn and read and share that knowledge across across your team, and you're in situations where people are navigating. And when you have those big asks from the business to figure it out, you know, you're not able to deliver on it. We had one situation where we were going into a new market and the ask was pretty big. So we pull a pod in, and I think a lot of teams are doing that, where you pull in people with different types of experience. It's almost like a sprint, and you get everyone working together and you have different skill sets, and you're able to solve the problem quicker than, you know, doing it traditional way of, you know, one-to-one. And at times, that just doesn't work.

Yeah. Before we go, because I know you had a limited amount of time, and I appreciate you being on the show. Thank you very much for that. It's definitely a good, very special to have you on here. But I did want to get to this one last topic that you said hiring manager expectations are high. And what I want to ask about that is, aren't they always? Or maybe another way to ask the question is, are they higher now than before and what's changed?

I don't— I think the— I think it depends on what industry you're in. So I've always— I spent most of my time in professional services, so our people are basically our product. And in order to generate revenue, you need more people because people are billable consultants. And but so what we're creating are solutions and solving problems and generate profit.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, so we're in business to be successful, so there's a sense of urgency around getting the right people in the right roles to deliver on that. And then the other thing we're actually thinking about now is more about internal mobility, that making sure we've got a good platform because another source of hires could be your internal talent that wants to move and develop in the organization. So that's another part of it.

So are, Hiring manager expectations have always been high. But has something changed in general with hiring? Are hiring managers today expecting more than they would have expected 5 years ago? Is, is, is there a difference? Because of what, technology or more availability of candidates?

I think there's There's pressure, especially, you know, part of it is like what's going on in the economy. You know, some industries are going through transformation, others are stressed. You've got high interest rates. So, you know, that's impacting, has impacted things. So organizations are, you know, managing their business pretty efficiently if they are not able to see the growth in revenue. So that puts more pressure for the roles that are being open. They're critical. And even companies that are having layoffs are actually hiring more strategic areas. Yeah, okay, yeah, they're redeploying their assets. But so if they're making investments and they realize they don't have the talent to fill the open roles that they have, there's a sense of urgency about getting that skill set. And I think there's a common demeanor on the type of people we're looking for, which are, you know, strong leadership skills, strong functional knowledge or whatever it is, competencies and capabilities to navigate in the gray, agility, Grit. So, all the things you actually are looking for in a recruiter, you're oftentimes looking for in your, you know, your performers for critical roles. And so, if everyone's looking for similar type of talent, it means that those, you know, top 20% performers are doing well and probably not looking for a job or they have options. And so, it just makes it more challenging to fill those critical positions.

Essentially, yes, hiring managers are getting more demanding. Their expectations are higher. And it's because the risks are higher. It's because the stakes are higher. So it's, you know, it's a combination of a change in the business environment where perhaps, not to point any fingers, but some companies might have just overhired because they had the money, right, and they could. So they just hired more than they needed. Now, that's, those days are probably gone. And companies are not doing the same kind of overhiring. Even companies that have never had layoffs are having layoffs, but still hiring, like you said. So that's where it's coming from. It's economic, it's an economic shift that's leading to this increased expectation from hiring managers then.

Right. So I think the challenge is, how do you solve the problem? So is it a problem that can be solved with contingent labor that to buy time to, you know, before you can get the ideal candidate to come in the door? Is it something where you build, buy, or borrow? You know, do you partner with another firm that can solve that problem? So those that are in, like, you know, recruiting and leadership positions within organizations are thinking about contingent workforce. How does that work into the equation? They're thinking of firms that haven't done anything offshore might be considering that to be more efficient in their dollars. To put the resources where they need it and build capabilities and expertise, not just in the location you're at, but somewhere else. So the complexity, I think, has happened because there's more options to solve the problem. So that's where the roles have become broader and more— require someone with maybe a different skill set than what we were looking for before. But clearly, there's a digital or technology component to a lot of jobs that maybe didn't exist before. Or it has to be— is an aspect of the job, you know, that didn't exist. So, you're looking for a skill set that might not be as available or everyone's competing against it. So, that's where understanding talent intelligence, the labor market, where that talent resides is going to be helpful from a recruiting standpoint. And as you do that, it gives— it takes a little bit of heat out of the room So the hiring manager really understands what we're dealing with. And so how do you solve that problem? Bring the hiring manager into the conversation and make them a partner of, you know, their network in the market too. Oftentimes you're dealing with leaders that have been in the industry for 25, 30 years. Turn them into brand ambassadors on LinkedIn, you know, teach them how to sell and motivate candidates to want to make the move. Make sure they're prepped on how to interview effectively. So we've candidates come in the door, they have a great experience. So you're looking at acceptance rates, you're looking at when people are dropping off, why are they dropping off. And it's, it's not all on recruiting, it could be something systemic within your organization, the way you're coming across.

So we have to respond to that, you have to respond to.

So that's where the roles are being, you know, using that data and insights to direct how can you fix the gaps you have within your organization, um, gives the hiring managers confidence that you're on your game and you're really you know, a talent advisor versus just focus on one narrow piece of it, which is just identify the, the talent, and, you know, the interview process is going to happen on its own.

Well said. What's that? Uh, so before I let you go, I ask all of my guests 2 questions to close things out.

Okay.

The first of those is, uh, most people will actually be watching this or listening to it over the weekend, and so I want to give them something to you want? So it's more of a, you know, something to go away and contemplate and think about, rather than having you come up with a nice pithy, you know, last words. What would you want them— what one thing would you want them to start thinking about? A thought-provoking question to ask themselves.

Yeah, are you asking your customers What they expect of you and what would you, what would they like you to be doing that you're not doing? Would be, you know, one thing. So asking for direct feedback, because that will give you insights as to how they perceive you and what you should be working on from like a career development standpoint.

What do you think they want you to do that you're not doing?

Yeah. And the other part would be, what do you think you need to do to round out your skills to get better? And be candid. You know, I'm really good at this, but I'm not as good as this. And then the question is, is that really holding you back? And if it's holding you back, what do you need to do to, you know, to fix it? And I think if you think about those two things around how people perceive you and how do you perceive yourself, that kind of might give you a roadmap as to what are the things you want to do and accomplish in 2024 to continually improve and get better at the game.

Okay, good deep thoughts there. And the last question is, who should be our next guest?

That's a great question. Um, you know, there's a lot of great people in, um, in talent acquisition. The things that I'm most interested in is how do you apply AI into recruiting. So anyone that kind of has a perspective of how to leverage intelligent automation to do our jobs more efficiently as a complement to the recruiting effort. We know that it's not going to replace what we do. There's still going to be a need for, you know, a strategic consultant to advise, but I think all of us, as we get, you know, learn and grow, having an understanding of what AI means to the recruiting industry and how we can leverage it appropriately. So anyone that can speak to that would be I think a good guest.

Okay, just any— do any names come to mind? I mean, they may not accept, but I can, I can sure be persuasive.

You know, I think a lot of the larger vendors are thinking about it. So, you know, I can think about it and send you some names, but yeah, yeah, the larger vendors are thinking about, you know, how can we make sure that we're still relevant, and are thinking about how to advance the, you know, their relevancy and how to use it to get things done quicker, more effectively, and do it in a way that's not going to disrupt us in a bad way.

Okay, great. That's, um, I will, I will dig into that one. I agree definitely on that. Thank you so much for being with us on this happy Friday. I hope for most of you the weather is going to be fantastic this weekend. And as usual, Um, you will see me next Friday on Shelly's Alley. Thank you, Paul, for being on with us today. Bye everybody, be kind to yourselves, take care.