Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to follow this podcast. If you would leave a review, give it a like, give it a star. It all matters, and it matters certainly to me because I look at it all. So if you have any feedback or topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments and I'll be happy to look at them. My book, The Next Conversation, is officially out. You can find the links down there in the show notes. And on top of that, if you're looking for ways to continue to further and practice your communication skills, you can go to the Jefferson Fisher School of Communication, and it has been a complete ball of fun in there. I have live classes, I have an AI that teaches you things to say, and you can practice on all the videos and library of resources at your fingertips. You can find those down in the show notes. Have you ever been in a conversation that really felt like a negotiation, or almost you felt out of your own depth? Well, I've brought you somebody that is the master of all negotiations, Chris Voss. You know him, you love him. Former FBI negotiator, author of Never Split the Difference, an international bestseller, and CEO of the Black Swan Network, a group so focused is to improve your negotiation skills no matter where you're at in life. Chris, my friend, good to see you again.

Yeah, Jeff, it's an absolute pleasure. I always enjoy talking with you.

Yeah, it's, um, it's so cool to be able to talk. You're such a hero of mine. I know I've told you this. We've been able to have a friendship outside of this right here, and it's just been— you're a huge role model to me. So I want to make sure I have it on the record. I've always loved your stuff, and tactical empathy is right in line with my omission in the world. So thanks for putting this out here for us.

Yeah, man, it's my pleasure. I think our thoughts overlap in our approach to life, collaborative. I love your book. And so yeah, it's a pleasure talking with you.

Thanks, man. I have a quote that I pulled from your book. Now, anybody listening right now, if you don't have Never Split the Difference, you're missing out on something that I'm going to tell you is going to immediately make you a better communicator, especially when it comes to positions of negotiation. And that doesn't mean just in the workplace, also means at home too. And it's this right here. For those people who negotiate, who view negotiation as a battle of arguments, it's the voices in their own head that are overwhelming them. I love it because I think there's so much truth to that, that people get so caught up in that anxiety because it's not what you're saying, it's the voices in their own head of what they're telling themselves. I want you to expand on that some more because I love this quote.

Yeah, well, you know, it's sorting out which voice in your head you're going to listen to also. And most of the time, the voices in your head are your amygdala, your fear centers. They're kicking into gear on you, and they're just— they're not your friend. They're just not. You know, a friend of mine, Sean Stevenson, was a great, great guy, died tragically. 5-ish years ago. And it just started to get to know Shawn and collaborate with him. And I knew right away that we're on the same sheet of music because he just flat out said to us, like, our biggest enemy is our amygdala, the fear center in our brain. It just was necessary to keep us alive when we were actually being chased by saber-toothed tigers and being, you know, chased down outside the cave, away from the campfire, where all sorts of creatures that wanted to eat us on a regular basis. But just not our friend these days. And the voice in your head can just make you do stupid things and make you paranoid and overreact. And what voice should you listen to? Like, the intuition. If you can sort your fear centers from your intuition— and I even sometimes say to myself, like, what is my gut telling me? Because I get problems overcoming my amygdala too. You know, if you're tired, it's been a long day, you didn't get a good night's sleep, the night before, like your amygdala just spoiling for that opportunity to take over the controls. And if you can listen to your gut instead, your gut's really accurate. It's a real help. It's just sorting the two out.

Yeah, there's something about the voice inside your own head. How our brain does that, I really don't know. It doesn't matter. It's going to happen anyway of just what's the voice that you're listening to and what's really Your gut. You have this line about getting a no isn't the end of a conversation, it's the beginning. What is the importance of getting to no in an argument or a conversation?

Yeah, we didn't even realize how significant that was when we first wrote the book. The book's a collaboration between me and my son, Brandon, Brandon Voss. Uncredited co-author Tal Ross. And Tal's doing his best there and did a phenomenal job capturing our thoughts and putting in our voice. But like, when somebody says no, something happens to them, the, the person who utters the word no versus the person who hears it. The person who says no feels safe and protected. And so that's how that becomes the beginning of the conversation, because having feel like they protected themselves and they feel safe, then they're more open to dialogue. They're more open to listening. You're not a threat, or the issue isn't a threat. There's this Pavlovian response to uttering the word no that opens people up. And that's why in so many cases, if you're willing to give it the space, no will start the conversation.

Do you find that It's just because, I mean, as we were little kids, I mean, for anybody listening, I know if you have your own kids or you remember being a kid, we just have a gut reaction to go, no. Even if you know, like to my son, this is your favorite meal. What are you talking about? And he's just, no. Or my daughter just decides she no longer loves strawberries. I'm like, you couldn't eat enough strawberries yesterday. It is this sense inside of us where Maybe it's just our own independence. Where do you think that comes from, this desire for us to immediately just go, no, I'm going to go for what's safe, and that's not filling me right now, I need to just say no?

Yeah, well, it's an interesting question. I mean, the parental dilemma is your kids don't do what you tell them to do, they do what they see you do. Yeah. And your kids saw you say no. You know, your kids see you say no to them all the time, and that's how you assert your autonomy and control of the situation. So they want to be like you. They're seeing you say no, and they're like, oh, okay, saying no is a way to assert my autonomy, to protect myself, to gain control of my environment. It makes me feel good to say it. And that's what's happening, right?

And that's really what's happening. Just, it feels good to say it. I think that explains it perfectly. You have a way of, which is brilliant, of asking questions to get to a no. For those listening to us right now, what is the importance of flipping a question to get to a no rather than finding a way for them to say yes to it?

Yeah, and that is the craziest thing. So it's kind of like a two-step explanation, maybe three-step. Everybody's been bamboozled with yes. The Yes Momentum, momentum selling, ask them 3 questions, 3 different questions. The answer to each question is a micro-agreement or a tie-down. And would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a bigger house? You know, they seemingly, and there may be at a point in time where this worked. And I think everybody has been hustled by this at some point in time in their life. Before you realize that you were being led down a path. And you got led down the path so many times that your gut instinct— oh, last time somebody tried to get me to say yes, you know, they ended up trapping me. And so then you have a Pavlovian response, you know, Pavlov's dog, the bell rings, they feed. Then every time the bell rings, the dog salivates. Well, every time somebody tries to get you to say yes, they led you down a path. There was a trap, there was a bear trap there, that, all right, so the minute somebody's trying to get me, they say yes, there's a trap. So there's a psychological Pavlovian response. So, and as stupid as that and true as it sounds, it seems stupid that the opposite would be true, that people feel safe when they say no and they'll open up. And, but in point of fact, they do. We were, we were teaching this, we're doing a course for, um, a, a company that does business with hospitals, probably about 5 years ago. And this woman, the head of their sales, is trying to get the head nurse of this particular hospital to accept a system. It had been a yes-oriented approach. And she says, look, this woman is in a no mode. She says no to everything I say. So I'm like, all right, flip your questions. She's like, no, that's not going to work. That's stupid. I mean, if I just reword it and she says no, it's going to change things? And so she got up out of the room, left the training, went to the hallway, sent the head nurse a text, are you against implementing this program? The head nurse immediately texts her back, says, no, just let me know what we have to do to move forward. And she comes walking back in a room with her phone in her hand. She can't believe what's on. 'Cause you guys are not gonna believe what just happened. And so people have conditioned themselves that when they say no, they're safe and they're willing to entertain stuff that they've been blocking previously just because saying yes scared them.

I think that's just so cool. I mean, just how funny to use how our minds naturally work. I mean, for a wonderful positive way, it's just defining how, you know, our own idiosyncrasies and our defaults of saying no. If you're anything like me, when you get home, you want to take off your work clothes and just get comfortable. One of my favorite sponsors of this podcast is called Cozy Earth, and the reason why I went with Cozy is because I already use their stuff. Their sheets are on my bed right now. My wife loves their pajamas. I, when I get home, I take off my suit and I put on a hoodie and some sweatpants. You can go to cozyearth.com/Jefferson, and for this weekend only, March 14th through the 16th, you'll get up to 45% off on Cozy Earth. You can go to cozyearth.com/Jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 45% off to celebrate World Sleep Week. Nothing better than that. Let's— for people listening right now, what are some great lean-ins, um, or let's say lead-ins for how they might begin a question to flip it to no. So how would you teach somebody to begin a question to get a no answer? I've heard you say, like, are you against, right? Would it offend you? Would you hate? Or is there a certain way? What's the magic behind it?

You know, how can you give yourself a lot of practice to start with? First of all, to test, see if it worked. And the most common thing is calling somebody on the phone or even stopping them and saying, have you got a few minutes to talk? Flip that to, is now a bad time to talk? That will get you practice. Now I'll tell you in advance what the reaction is going to be when you say, is now a bad time to talk? They're going to hesitate for a moment and then they're like, no, no, what do you got? Or they'll say, yeah, as a matter of fact, it is a bad time. And then they'll tell you when they can talk. And what you want is you want a conversation where they don't feel guarded. And I've never had anybody not give me a better time. And plus, in many cases, they may be able to talk to you, but they're distracted. A lot of people make the mistake of multitasking. When We were talking about, you know, the bourbon that my company's launching. You know, I got my bourbon shirt on, The Difference. Nice. You know, anything I get in, I'm a human billboard. I'm going to advertise my stuff when I get the opportunity.

Yeah, I can learn some things.

But the guy that did the bourbon previously, he'd done a documentary film on my company, Tactical Empathy. If you're interested, it's on Amazon.

Yes, please.

But so he screened it for me first time in Vegas. The— and the plan was a month and a half later, I was going to show it at a function in Beverly Hills. And the night I saw it, you know, I loved it. And I woke up the next morning and I realized there was a fundamental flaw with the documentary. I was— I was not going to allow it to go out unless this thing was fixed. So, um, it's a Sunday afternoon. And I, I got to talk to him. We got to fix this now. I sent him a two-line text: Is now a bad time to talk? You're not going to want to hear what I have to say. So in point of fact, he was on a Zoom call, and he texted me back immediately and said, I'm in the middle of a Zoom call, and I can talk to you at 3. I'll call you at 3. Now If I'd have called him, he would have answered the phone because we have that kind of a relationship. We're good friends. He's going to pick up the phone, which means he would have taken my call while he was on a Zoom call, which means he would have done a bad job at both. I don't need that. I need his undivided attention because we got a problem and the clock is ticking on us really hard. And so I need him to let me know when he can speak to me. Undivided attention is now a bad time to talk. What is a bad time? I don't want to talk to him when it's a bad time. I want him to give me an alternative time, and I need 100% focus. He's dialed in. He's prepping for bad news. Now, I don't know what was going through his mind. When you prep somebody for bad news, the worst that happens is they imagine something equal to what you have to say. 9 times out of 10, they imagine worse. Yes. I don't know what was on his mind. But again, the clock is ticking, and we don't have time to argue about this. He calls me on the phone. I say, "Look, this is a problem. Derek Gaunt, he's the head of coaching. We left him out of the film. We have to put him in the film. He's been too critical to everything we've done." Now, we've been working on this film for a year. And Nick could rightly say, "We've been working on this for a year. You know, what's the matter with you? This is gonna cost me money. It's gonna be a problem." But since I dialed him up with those two text messages, he says, okay, this is what we got to do. I need Derek's schedule. We got to get Derek on camera. That means I got to get a camera crew to him, or we got to get him to a camera crew. Now we're showing this film in a month, and it's going to take— once we get the film, it's going to take me 3 weeks to edit it in. So we have to do this now. And I'm like, done and done and done. But it all started with me not letting him have a multitasking conversation, which was the point of, is now a bad time to talk? I need focus. And that's what's going to happen when you throw it out there to people.

Yeah, it's like the magic that can happen that all you have to do is just the turn of phrase. What I see, for those that are listening to me and Chris right now, I think a good takeaway for how to get people to answer no is to begin with a negative in the first part of your sentence. So instead of asking someone, is it a good time to talk, is now a bad time to talk. So you find ways to flip the positive words into negative words. Would it be terrible of me to ask you this? Would you be offended by— is now a bad time? Um, use words that are negative in the first part of your sentence, and that's going to flip for them to have to answer also in the negative rather than try to, to say something positive in the beginning. Would you agree with that?

That's perfectly described.

Yeah, well, I think that's a— and I'm going to do that in my own life. Also, I want to make sure we get this. This is Tactical Empathy on Netflix?

Uh, yes. Yeah, it's on Amazon.

Amazon. Sorry, Amazon. Okay, I'm gonna put that in my cart. I wanna, I wanna Um, bookmark that. Yeah. Uh, record it in my memory. Oh, I think that is one of the just magical ways by just a simple turn of phrase will create so much power in the conversation that the other person really just has no clue about it. It's still the same thing. You're still wanting to get that same information, but you're using the fact that we naturally want to say no because no's very comfortable. Mm-hmm. Not that they're trying to turn you down. It's just no is more comfortable to say. Um, and so by using that to your advantage, you're going to get more of what you want. There's something else that you teach that it's called an accusation audit. Yeah, I, I love these. Uh, when I first read the book and saw that, I was like, this is brilliant. Uh, for anybody who has not heard what an accusation audit is in your world, can you just tell us?

It's Principally, we try to make it self-defining. So think of yourself as an accountant who's going to do an audit. Now do an audit slash assessment slash inventory of the negative thoughts the other side might be harboring against you, their accusations. And be liberal, um, thinking lots. You know, once you start thinking about this, a lot of stuff will occur to you.

Yeah, you say be liberal, like be creative.

Be creative.

Yeah.

And then what you do is you lay it out up front. Now, what scares most people about this is even if they believe that labeling, identifying a negative diffuses it, and it does, there's actually brain science that backs it up, not denying it, you say something like, it sounds like I'm going to sound disrespectful instead of I don't want to sound disrespectful. I don't want to sound disrespectful is the wrong way. That's a denial. I'm going to sound disrespectful is the correct way. It's a prediction. It's an observation. So if it's there, it deactivates it. Now what scares everybody is that you can plant the negative. You can plant the negative emotion. You can't plant emotions in people's heads. You can't plant negatives. You can't plant positive. You can only work with what's there. So the accusations audit is probably one of the single most effective, most used strategies that we coach people on to break open negotiations, to break down barriers, to solve problems in an accelerated fashion, to really get to the heart of the matter really quickly, because it just deactivates and disables the negatives and inoculates from any that may pop up.

You don't know what just my nerd, weird communication brain, like how much I love— I love this so much. Uh, I've been dreaming of this conversation with you. Uh, what is the one thing that somebody can do in their conversation that is going to apply the principles of an accusation audit? And let's put in maybe a home scenario and a work scenario.

Uh, you know, I'm glad you asked that because my staff is doing this to me all the time. And why do they do it to me all the time? Because it works at home. Like, they'll walk into my office and they'll go, is that— is now a bad time to talk? No. You're going to hate me for this. I got— you know, my girlfriend— I got to take my girlfriend to the grocery store. Like, I don't know what it is. Like, they are— they're throwing this one word out, you know. And when you're doing the accusations audit, I mean, go for the strong word. You know, don't, don't pull your punches, which is why they say, you know, you're going to hate me for this. Like, no, I'm not going to. You know, my first reaction is like, you know, what are you going to do? Are you going to, are you going to, are you going to set my house on fire? Are you going to dump your garbage in, in my, in inside my truck? Like, I imagine something horrible and they'll ask me something that is less than what I was worried about. And, you know, they're preempting it. And so You're going to hate me for this. Start that on your ass, on the people in your life. Now, why is everybody on my staff doing this to me instantly? Not because they're trying to show off. They got an inkling of this and they actually started using it at home. And they changed all their conversations at home. And so they're like, hey, this works. And if it works at home, it's going to work out on the street on a regular basis. So Yeah, start trying. You got to ask if it's going to make somebody uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Say, you know, I don't— and don't say, I don't want this to make you uncomfortable, which is again the denial. Right. Say, you know, you're going to hate me for this. And then see what happens. Do it playfully. See what happens on small stakes stuff. You know, get some data.

What I find so fascinating about this is that it uses our contradictory nature. Like, if I was going to tell you, like, you're probably really exhausted today, naturally you're going to be like, no, I'm not exhausted. Like, you naturally want to find another word. Well, no, I'm not exhausted. I mean, I'm tired, but I'm not— like, we naturally kind of just have this contrarian sense to us, some more than others in our lives. And it just plays to that so well. Like, if I was going to tell you, where, like you talked about, the bad way to do this, the wrong way to do it is to say, I don't mean to offend you, but now you've only almost confirmed that you will. You've almost guaranteed you will now offend them. But if you come at it from, you're probably going to think this is offensive, but, and then tell them that, now they're going to think like the contrarian in the head goes, no, that's not offensive. No, you can't offend me like that. Now they have to push against you. Do you find that it's this contradiction that we like to have of just natural disagreement with somebody, no matter what it is? It's like our gut instinct, and it's that disagreement that makes this work so well.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think you're definitely on the right track. I think it's probably 2 or 3 things, um, and very similar to the contrarian, uh, correction as well. I mean, it's, it's a correcting, not, you know, I don't feel that way. That's both, that's both contrarian and correcting. And people love to correct. I mean, you know, people love to correct.

We do. Yes. So I think that's it. Yeah.

You know, there's a famous Judge Judy thing. You know, this guy, this girl's accused of this guy stealing her purse. And, you know, she's sitting there and she outlines all the stuff that was in her purse. And then of course she throws in there like $40 in cash. And the guy immediately says, there was no cash in that purse. And the judge starts to laugh and said, the only way you know that is if you stole it.

Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah. Judge Judy, what an icon. Something I want to make sure and bring up so that my listeners can hear this. The phrase, sounds like there's a reason for saying that. Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. What is the power behind that phrase that somebody can use immediately in their next conversation, and what will that do for them?

Yeah, that is one of the magic wand phrases, uh, and we've, for whatever reason, just for the fun of it, you know, we label the number of go-to phrases magic wand phrases because it just changes so much instantly. It's like waving a magic wand. So you— what is behind what somebody said is always more important than what they said. It's always more important. You know, some people call it the question behind the question, the thought behind it. Like, what makes them say that is so much more important. You need to know what their thought process is. And your guess at best is going to be accurate about 30% of the time, which is not a bad accuracy. You know, it's not better than half, but it's not, it's not a horrible percentage. But That means about two-thirds of the time your guess is going to be wrong. So you need to pull out why they said that. And, you know, it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. It seems like you have a reason for saying that. Whatever sort of take you want on that, you want to approach them in a way, and that's different than a question. Because if I say, what makes you say that? The word what causes you to stop and think. You're going to go into in-depth thinking. Which means you may not have the energy to answer, number one, because in-depth thinking is tiring. And number two, you're going to think about it before you answer me. And I really want an unvarnished answer. I want it coming right out of your mouth without sucking a lot of energy out of you. And I know that if I say, it seems like you have a reason for saying that, you are more likely to give it to me straight right off the bat. It doesn't feel judgmental on your part. It feels very encouraging. It feels open and collaborative. It opens all these doors to sharing information that is not exhausting and actually develops rapport. So it's, it's, it's a great way to find out what made them say what they just said.

Listen, I care about you. If you're listening to this podcast, I care about you. And because I care about you, as somebody who also loves communication and conversations, I know that you can't just have all these conversations in your head. Yeah, I can give you advice, but sometimes you need more. You need to talk to somebody else who's trained in helping guide you through this. And that's where therapy comes in. I go to therapy. It's incredibly helpful. And a sponsor of this podcast is BetterHelp. What they do, it's an online platform where they can connect you with online therapists. All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire and they match you with a therapist. And if it doesn't work out with somebody else, they can easily switch you to somebody new. But the point is you're getting it out and diving deeper for better answers. Because conversations come with questions, therapy comes with answers. You can go to betterhelp.com/JeffersonFisher for a discount on your first month. That's betterhelp.com/JeffersonFisher. It's— I find that when in my world I cross-examine people in a deposition, and if I say, sounds like there's more to that, which is very similar, I mean, it's the same type of method here, they always have a reason for saying it. They always have more behind it. And I think you're absolutely right. It's such a good way of getting more information out without making them defensive, like making them feel like you're on the attack.

Yeah, it's a great circumstance too, because if in that deposition, probably by definition, you're a threat. And so they're going to be reluctant and you want them, you want them to pull that information where they don't see you as a threat. And also, if it's a deposition, it's probably going to go on for hours. It doesn't really help you to exhaust them because the more tired they get, the less information they're going to be able to supply. Right.

Here's a question I got. What is the Chris Voss way of handling passive-aggressive people?

It would really be, first of all, um, They may be what I refer to as a 7-percenter, which is a person I don't want to deal with anyway.

Yeah.

I learned a long time ago, do I have to deal with this person? My former boss, Gary Nessner, used to say our approach to negotiation was best chance of success, which means by definition it's not a guaranteed chance of success. So I'm going to gauge the other person. How passive-aggressive are they? Do I have to deal with them? Do I want to be handcuffed to this person for the foreseeable future, for forever? Um, a friend of mine, Joe Polish, refers to these people as HALFs—hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. And Joe says, just don't deal with HALFs, cut them out of your life. And so if somebody's passive-aggressive, my first question to myself is, do I want to be handcuffed to this person over a long-term period of time? And if the answer is no, then I'm out. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. If you're passive-aggressive now, for me personally, there's a really good chance that you're going to get fired. I'm just going to continue the relationship. Yeah. Now, what happens if I feel like I have to? What if I'm handcuffed to them? What if I've taken myself hostage? Then probably going to start labeling. And then if it sounds to me like you don't want to give me an answer, because passive-aggressive, what they do is they throw stuff back on you. What do you want me to do is one of their favorite questions after you've just told them what you want them to do, right? Because they know how exhausting that is. They'll be like, ah, you know, look, I need you to go down, I need to do this, this is a problem, this is a problem, we need to fix this. And they'll be like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, like they— well, like they're deaf because you just told them. But it's a great strategy for exhausting you and wearing you out, which is what a passive-aggressive person is often going to do. So I'll— I might label them. I'm like, it sounds to me like what I just said was confusing. Yeah. Um, my first—

you say labeling, define that for for us real quick, how you apply that?

Well, the basic label is a verbal observation which starts with 'it seems like,' and then you make your observation. 'It sounds like,' 'it looks like,' sometimes it even 'feels like.' And if somebody's passive-aggressive, uh, they're dragging their feet, you can say, 'It feels like you're dragging your feet.' Uh, let's just make it an observation based on an emotion or dynamic that you see. It's a verbal observation. And if you see it, even if you sense it, it's now fair game to observe it verbally, slap a label on it, identify what you're seeing and say it out loud. And depending upon how you're wired or how it's presented, that's why the choices are basically like it looks like, sounds like, it seems like, it feels like. It's a very collaborative thing to do. It's— you're open to correction. Somebody can say, well, you know, don't, don't, don't tell, don't tell me what I am. My answer is going to be like, I didn't say you were, I said that's the way it looked, or that's the way it sounds. So it's, it's a— it's not accusatory, believe it or not. Yeah, this—

it feels very related to the, the whole sense of, like we said, correction. They'll, they'll want to correct you. So if you do something simple as labeling of, you know, I'm feeling like you feel nervous about this conversation, or you feel uneasy about this. It's just you labeling that. They're going to correct you and go, no, no, I'm not uneasy. I just— and they give you the truth versus you trying more to skate around it. So labeling is just verbally saying out loud what you're sensing and feeling in that moment. Exactly.

Yeah, well said.

One part of what I feel makes Chris Foss Chris Foss is what I guess the younger kids would call the vibes. Like, you have this vibe that you know is your vibe.

Where did you grow up, by the way? Uh, small town in Iowa. I'm a small town Iowa boy. Got it.

And it's, I don't know where your accent comes from. Is it, I don't know how Iowans sound. It's convoluted.

No. Yeah.

But it's this tone that you have that like, if you had told me like, look, I just wanna, I want your couch. I'd be like, no, Chris, you can't have my couch. I know it's a great couch. I shouldn't have it, but I just, I really like this couch. And I'd be like, gosh, you know what? You sound so good, Chris. Here, you can take it. It's what I'm getting here to is just the power of the voice and the volume and the tone, which you just have a signature style on. And I know that you talk about that as something that you were trained on, you know, that late night DJ voice. So what kind of lessons can somebody take from slowing down their words and lowering their volume regardless of their gender?

People connect to you a lot easier, and the connection tends to stick. If you're communicating with a high volume of words, with a lot of energy, with a lot of emotion, it has a really fast half-life. It goes away really quickly. And you want to communicate in a way with people they kind of resonate with, you know, it resonates with their bones. And they don't feel pushed. The energy is not necessary to continue the relationship. Um, yeah, I learned it on a suicide hotline, you know, then continue to learn it as a hostage negotiator. Ran across the hypnotherapist one time that said that's exactly how we get people to relax. Uh, and so then Ideally, the perfect combination, if you can downward inflect, if you can slow down, and you don't have to have a deep voice. Like women can downward inflect by simply dropping their chin downward in inflection. And then the occasional smile, like it just gives people a warm feeling. It's something they're drawn to that they resonate with. And you put the two of those together, it tends to really, it really lasts, it sticks. People like it and they feel comfortable with it.

I find that it's this, this sound. When you can hear it in somebody's voice, you just think to yourself, I want them on my side. Yeah. I don't know what they have, but listening to it, I, I want them on my side. What I try to picture often when somebody's communicating, I kind of apply a, a music style. Like if I had a CD album for this person's voice, what would I apply? You know, would it be something very Frank Sinatra? Would it be something super loud and crazy? Or would it be hip-hop? Like, what is the vibe of this person? And it all takes different walks of life. Some people are not for other people, and it's— some people are easier to listen to, and some music is easier to listen to. So I think you're spot on with, you know, having the ability to slow down is going to make people more drawn to you. Is that, would that be right? Yeah.

Drawn to you, less rushed, less cornered.

They feel voluntary.

They feel collaborative. It just makes it easier. Yeah. They're very drawn to you.

You have just been such a truly a legend in how the way you've turned, in my view, arguments and negotiations on their head of just, that's not how we think about them, but it's, The way you— the techniques you teach are really, I, I just find groundbreaking. To the person right now who is thinking, I don't want anybody to disagree with me, I want everybody to agree with me, I want every conversation I have, an argument that I'm in, I, I want to win it and everybody needs to go along with my plan— what, what would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation?

Yeah, you're driving people away from you. Yeah, you're just— you're consistently— you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart. You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I, I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect, like People get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine? I've read that the arithmetic, uh, the algorithm is if they let you win 1 in every 84 pulls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machine because the win is so celebratory. Like, if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission It's like the slot machine going off. The bells and the whistles are ringing, the lights are flashing, you're getting this huge hit of dopamine anticipation. It feels so good, and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times, and they're slowly draining your bank account. So if you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you, and suddenly You can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough, or nobody in your industry talks to you, or people, you know, pay the annoyance tax, make you just so you go away. And you got all these small wins, but they don't accumulate, they don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow they get along with people, they're not as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they got a better car. They're making more money. How did that happen?

I think you're exactly right. This idea of when you're trying to come in and prove everything and push people away, like you said, you're only draining your own bank account, bank account of life. And I think that's wise wisdom. All right. What I learned today in our conversation, and I wish this was 7 hours, is that one, it's easier to get questions answered when you flip them to get a no rather than a yes. And one way to do that is you can begin with a negative in your question. That's going to help get a negative response to keep you down the road. Second of all, accusation audit. It's a way of simply saying how you assume that they might be feeling in the conversation. And the idea here is one way they'll actually correct you and tell you more of what they're feeling behind the scenes. Or 3 is labeling, and that is simply visually saying out loud, it seems like, it sounds like, it feels like, of what you're perceiving. That's also going to get them to open up in this conversation. Chris, did we, did we hit it? Did we cover it?

Well said, brother. Very well said. I love talking with you, man.

It's the best. It really is. From somebody who, um, this is just like my I feel like I'm a minor league baseball player talking to Babe Ruth. Like, it's just, I think it's just so cool. That's kind of, I get so excited talking to you and love what you do. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's a true honor. Thanks.

Pleasure's mine, Jefferson.