Communication Habits That Build TRUST

My life was on a big whiteboard and somebody came with a rag and just wiped it off. And I had to start all over in building a reputation and how I'm going to communicate and make people feel. This is what I would do. Here is my blueprint. If I had to start all over from scratch, you ready? Number 1, I'm going to speak as if every word matters. I'm going to talk as if every word matters. Now you might think, Jefferson, that sounds like a lot. It's not. I'm not saying you have to go, uh, just a minute, let me think about it, every single time you talk. That's not it. It is a mindset. It is a mindset that what you say today, today affects everything about who you will be tomorrow, who, how you'll be talked tomorrow. In my book, The Next Conversation, one of the first things I teach in the essentials is that your words have a ripple effect. Meaning what you say today affects everything else in your life. Communication touches everything. How you talk to the person behind the counter or the waiter or waitress affects how they talk to their family when they go home. How you talk to your friends or people that are strangers affect what they think about you. How you talk at work affects how you move up in your job. How you talk to your kids affects how they will talk to their kids. People you will never meet are affected by your words today. And that's including words you say to yourself. I came across something on social media that really hit me hard. I wish I took a screenshot of it, but the essence was this: every time you act, you're trying to make two people proud, or you're trying to honor two people. That's your younger self and your older self. And that, that was almost a mind-blowing concept to me of when I choose to say something, I am saying it sometimes for my younger self to stand up for myself, to make them proud of where we've, where we've come. You've made it, you're okay. And also what I say and do for my older self, the person who's going to have to live with the consequences, the person who's going to have to pay the cost. So it was just a great way of kind of putting a spectrum on it. The younger self, the 5-year-old, 8-year-old me, I can see it with my big, you know, bottle glasses. And my older self, who hopefully still has hair, if you— what am I doing for that person that I could be choosing to do today? Every word matters. Your words have a ripple effect. And so You say, okay, what's the practical effect of that, Jefferson? What do you, what do you do? Here's what I would do. I would understand that when I speak, I'm going to speak in a positive way, meaning I'm going to use positive words. Why? Because then I will be feeling more positive to myself, meaning I'm giving myself positive words and I'm sending out positive words. If I'm being generous with my positive uplifting kindness, I'm going to receive that back. And it just, it works in a loop. You know those people, they go, oh, they're so nice, they're so pleasant. You know why? Because they're generally nice and pleasant. They say nice and pleasant things. If you say I really like that person, most likely what you mean is they said nice things to you. Like rarely do we see the hidden act of kindness from someone. That's rare. Like, yes, yes, actions can speak louder than words. They're not a replacement for them. It's your words. You remember how a friend talked to you when you were on the playground when you were 6 years old, and if it would brought you up or put you down, you remember it. You remember what your parents said. You remember how your grandparents treated you. Everybody has a memory that is tied to how people's words affected you. They remember it. I can remember getting in trouble in PE, which was like our recess kind of class, because this kid and I got in a spat. And I remember the coach coming up and saying, "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you." And I thought, what an odd thing to say. I was like maybe 7. I even just remember going, yeah, that's such a weird thing to say. That's just not true. Our words matter. Our words truly matter. So when you choose to say uplifting things rather than negative things, you're going to start and build a legacy, a reputation that is built upon that. You choose the words that you want to make people feel. So your words are who you are. Put in a nutshell, what you say is who you are. People only experience you based on what comes out of your mouth. They only— that's really how they base your entire personality. One of these days, every one of us, we're not going to be on this earth anymore. And the people that, when they are at your funeral— and you've been to funerals— all we think about, all we think about is how that person made us feel. These conversations that we had with them, these memories that are tied to words and expressions and feelings that are wrapped in Conversation, communication. So I would first have the mindset that every single word matters, and I'm gonna choose words that uplift. I'm gonna choose words that are warm. I'm gonna choose a tone that is going to uplift them. I like to say that your tone is your trademark. You say, okay, Jefferson, you sound a certain way. Maybe it's my voice makes people feel something or how I treat them. Everybody has a distinct, unique voice that I can never replicate.. And you make people feel a certain way. Your tone is your trademark. So how do you want to, how do you want to be remembered? Every single word matters. So choose words that serve you better. Choose words that serve the other people better. Cool. 2, second thing I would do is consistency. Meaning I'm going to show up every single time in that same mindset. Let me give a practical application of that. When we get in a conversation, what typically happens is we only think about the words, we don't think about the feelings after. We only think about the current present moment, we don't think about what comes next. We just think of right now. We don't think about episode 8. We only think about the trailer. We only think about the pilot episode. We're not thinking about what episode 9's gonna look like or episode 10. So it's very easy for us to say things that hurt or say things that are flippant because we are not paying attention to what comes after. Consistency means I'm going to be very careful that when I say things, I'm going to remember the next moment because I have to continue to show up in that consistent form. What that says is I want you to think of conversations sometimes as you're watching them. You're watching them happen as if you're in the audience with popcorn and you're watching the conversation. You're going to ask yourself, Will I be proud of my performance? Will I be proud of how I reacted? Will I be proud of myself? I can't control a lick of what the other person says or does. Not a thing. They have free will. They can do and say whatever they want. But will I be proud of me? Will I be proud of me? I can remember my parents getting on to me and my siblings And, you know, I, I would say something, well, my sister did X, Y, and Z. And they're going, I'm not talking to your sister. I'm talking to you. You can't, you can't control anything about how they're reacting. I can only tell you about how you're behaving right now. It's that same kind of concept. You can't control what anybody else is doing. Will you be proud of what you are doing in that instance? Consistency. What I would even, Link, you wanna take this even further? There's something in my mind that I kind of have as signature habits. I would create a signature habit, and that is what are you going to be known for and what you continually show up to do. So maybe your signature habit is, I'm somebody who's very quick to apologize. I'm somebody who, if somebody wants to get in line, absolutely, I'm going to let them in. My signature quality, um, is that I don't mind if somebody merges right in front of me. Go right ahead. My signature, my trademark is how I am going to always end the conversation with a compliment or how I shower people with compliments that are genuine or how I end a conversation with, is there anything else I can do to help you? What is your signature action that it's a habit that you can continually be as yours Everybody does one. You probably once already come up to your mind of like, this is what I feel like I do every single time. It's become your trademark. It's your signature habit. And these are important because they show up as your continued legacy when you're building that. And that's part of consistency. So number 1, we talked about using words that are more uplifting and using positive words. Number 2, what I would do is make sure I'm solidified on a signature habit. For me, What I like is my signature habit is I want to feel, make people feel very warm. That is my habit. This is what I love to do. I talk the fastest I ever talk really when I am in my car, on the social media, or on a podcast because you have to get information out pretty quickly. In life, I'm a little bit slower, just a little bit slower. And maybe you're listening and going, Jefferson, you already talk pretty slow, man. Well, my default is even slower than this, and I, I like to make people feel really warm. And so I am going to give compliments, I'm going to show gratitude, I'm going to let the other person be first. I like the acts of service, even when I'm especially in conversation. And that's, that's how I have been raised, and that's, that's what relates to me, resonates with me. So that's, that's what I would do. Number 2 is consistency. Number 3 If I had to start all over from scratch, I'm going to practice the hard conversations. I'm going to welcome the hard talks. When there's a difficult conversation, I'm going to have this mindset of, okay, awesome, yes, this is, this is my chance. Rather than having the mindset of, I don't know, no, I mean, no, we can just put this off. No, it's okay, don't, don't worry about it. And finding that I'm always backpedaling, I'm walking on eggshells. Absolutely not. If I want to build a a communication legacy of how I want to be remembered. I want to be seen as somebody who is attacking in the best way possible difficult conversations, as if it's something I'm excited about doing, not in a negative way, but I'm understanding that the difficult conversations are the best opportunity to build the best relationships. Now, I know that you also, um, you've done so much research. In fact, have a whole separate book on just Habits. The power of, yeah, habits. And of course, everybody's looking for better habits. What would you say to the person listening right now is one habit that they can work towards in their life right now to simply improve their communication?

So it— so asking those deep questions is a great habit, right? That's one thing. And it's— and it literally is a habit. If you just kind of practice it, you get it, you start doing it without thinking about it. But there's another habit that's really, really useful, which is proving that you are listening. So one of the things that the research tells us, and I'm sure you know this as an attorney, is that oftentimes simply listening is not enough because the other person, they have this sneaking suspicion, particularly if this is a tough conversation, if this is something we disagree about, they have this sneaking suspicion you're not actually listening. You're just pretending to listen and you're waiting your turn to speak.

Right?

Like, yeah, like, yeah, you're just, you're just staying silent until I shut up for a minute and then you're going to jump in. So one of the things that we found is really important, particularly in what are known as conflict conversations, right? Where we just might, we might disagree with each other or we might be talking about something that's hard to talk about, like politics or religion. In those conversations, it's really, really powerful to prove that we're listening. And actually the proving part is, is a habit. So there's a technique for it known as looping for understanding that they teach basically in every law school now. And it has these 3 parts. Part 1 is to ask a question, preferably a deep question, right? Part 2, step 2 is when the person has answered that question, try and repeat back in your own words what you heard them say. And you've actually already done this a couple times in this conversation, right? What I hear you saying is, and I'm gonna prove to you 'Cause the goal here is not mimicry. I'm gonna prove to you that not only am I paying attention, I'm actually processing what you're thinking, right? Or what you're saying. I can put it into different words and maybe even give you a little insight on it that you didn't have when you said it. And most of us do step 1 and step 2 intuitively. Step 3 is the one I always forget. And this is where the habit comes in, is once I repeat back what I heard you say, ask if I got it right. Did I hear you correctly? Because when we do that, what we're actually doing is we're asking for the other person permission to acknowledge that we were listening. And if I believe you are listening to me, I become much, much more likely to listen to you in return. So when I ask you permission to acknowledge that I was listening and you say, yeah, I think you heard what I was saying, you suddenly become much more likely to listen to me. Even on a subconscious level. And that looping for understanding, that's entirely a habit.

Yes, I, I could not agree more. Uh, to put it in a nutshell, how I interpret this is that, for anybody listening, number one, if you can, ask a question instead of the response. So anytime somebody's sharing something with you, we make a mistake when we all of a sudden start talking about ourselves, like, like Charles was saying, you're just kind of waiting to be like, no, actually, you know what I did the other day? And instead of actually listening to somebody, you can cure all that simply by asking one question. One that I like to ask is asking them, what was your favorite part? Because everybody has a favorite part. I do this with my kids and I'm sure you have the same thing with yours. Day's done. And if I say, how was your day? It was good. Like, yeah. Yeah. What'd you learn? I don't know.

Like nothing.

Exactly.

It was cool.

It was okay.

Right.

But if I ask, what was your favorite part? They almost always come up with something that was like, ah, this is the thing that is my favorite part. And if you can just ask that one question, it makes them feel like you're actually, what they said has value instead of trying to step on their story or step on what they're trying to share. Because you're really trying to be relatable, but in some sense, you're you're taking that away. So asking just one question and then almost repeating back what they said to make you feel that connection is just a brilliant strategy. And it works every time. I mean, I've seen it work every time.

And what I love about that question is, what's your favorite part? Is that what you're actually asking is, how do you feel about your day? What was the part of your day that made you feel good? What was the part of your day that didn't make you feel good?

Right.

That's why I think that question is so powerful. With my kids, I try and, I have a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old. You know, when I ask them about their friends, I ask them questions like, what do you admire about Jasper? Like, it seems like you like him a lot. Right, because at that moment, what I'm actually asking them is I'm asking them, how do you feel about friendship? How do you feel about this particular guy? How do you, what are the things you look for, you value in another person? And we like being asked questions like that, right?

We really do.

We really do.

Anytime we get to, I think, talk about the emotion behind the words, we're really searching for that. That's exactly— I hear you on that 1,000%. Because when you say, what's your favorite part? It's not something practical. It's not saying what knowledge did you receive? It's being a favorite or having a favorite. It's a feeling of just—

That's exactly right.

This is what I gravitated towards the most.

Maya Angelou has this quote that research has borne out that Nobody will remember what you say, but they will remember how they made— how you made them feel. And it's exactly right. Now, I did want to address something that you had said before, because you're, you're exactly right. Asking these questions can be really powerful. And, and there's a— there are times when sharing about ourselves can feel really selfish, right? If somebody says, you know, oh, you know, I— if we ask, where'd you go on vacation? And they say, Oh, I went to, you know, I went to Spain. And then you realize pretty quickly they only ask 'cause they wanna tell you about their vacation and the fancy yacht that they stayed on, right?

Exactly, yeah.

That's not great. But there are times when looping for understanding, proving we're listening, does call on us to share something about ourselves. But the takeaway here is when you share something about yourself, it should be because you want to connect with the other person. You wanna show them that you wanna connect. As opposed to, I want to steal the spotlight from you. Yeah. And so oftentimes what we'll see is, you know, someone will say, oh, you know, my aunt passed away last week, and someone will say, I know exactly what that's like. My dog died 7 years ago and I still think about him. Like, that's not— I'm not trying to share to connect with you. I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you and, yeah, aim it on myself. But to say to someone, oh, I, you know, I was really close to my aunt too, and it— she was such an important part of my life. Like, tell me a little bit about your aunt. Like, like, what was she like? In that case, what I'm actually doing is I'm sharing of myself. I'm engaging in that social reciprocity, right, which feels really good and meaningful and trustworthy. But I'm doing it in the service of trying to connect with you, show you that I want to connect with you and learn from you.

I find that even if somebody's telling me, let's say about their hard day. You just say, how was your day? And they go on and on and on. And you simply just say, that sounds hard.

Yeah.

Right. Like, oh, yo, that, yes. Like, that's all they needed. That's all they needed was, oh, that's, oh, that's, for, they're complaining about what somebody did to them. You go, yeah, that sounds rude. Like, isn't it? Like, it's just, that's all they're wanting, the feeling.

I was just gonna say, they teach teachers to do this by telling them that if, If a student comes in, they want to have a, you know, a conversation, start the conversation by asking them, do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard? Which is the practical, this emotional and the social conversation. Because to exactly your point, if a kid says, no, no, I just need you to like, I just need you to know what's going on. Then you can say, oh, that sounds really hard. Like that's all that you need. You've told me that's all that you need to feel good about this.

That sounds difficult. That sounds hard. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, all of that, it's much more powerful than just the words themselves. Mel, as you know that, and we've had the chance to establish a great friendship, which I'm so grateful for, is that the people that are listening right now care very much about how they communicate. And the question I first want to ask you is, How important is self-communication? What does Mel Robbins say to herself? How does Mel Robbins talk to herself?

That's a fantastic question. No, I'm serious, because how you talk to yourself matters. And I'm 56 years old right now. And how I spoke to myself, my self-talk was very different for the first 52 years of my life from how it is now. And I, you know, heard somebody, there's an incredible woman who I'm sure you know. And if, as you're listening to us, you don't recognize this name, that's okay. I'm gonna tell you what she shared with name, shared with me. Her name is Dr. Julie Smith. And she said recently to me, she said, now, Mel, I want you to imagine the experience of what it would be like to be locked in a room with your childhood bully for a year. Like, how would that feel? And I was like, awful. I mean, and if you just imagine the person that kind of picked on you or that you were kind of afraid of or the kind of mean person that you avoided, in your school, imagine being locked in a room with them for a year. It would be horrible. And then she said, well, great, now imagine what it would be like to be locked in that room instead with your best friend. And that obviously would be better because you'd have a companion, you'd have somebody that you could have fun with, you'd have somebody that would cheer you up and make you feel hopeful even though you're stuck in this room together, to play games with, to see the brighter side of things, to make you laugh. And I love that visual because that is your self-communication. The person that you're locked in a room with is a visual example of how you talk to yourself. And as I explain that metaphor for you, and as you visualize it for yourself, just the experience of what it would be like to be locked in a room with a bully versus locked in a room with a best friend, you could viscerally feel what that would be like. And I think what I didn't realize for a long time is just how loud and critical my self-talk and self-communication was. That I didn't see the things that I did well. I saw everything I didn't do right. You know, I could have done 100 things a day. And I'm sure as you're listening to Jefferson and me right now, you've done 100 things already today, even if it's only 10 o'clock in the morning. You've done 100 things correctly. You fed the dog, you got outta bed, you selected a podcast. Like so many things are like check, check, check, but you don't see any of those. You probably have more of a voice that's a bully. And that was my voice for 52 years. I was just laser focused on what I was doing wrong. The one thing I didn't get to, I would look in the mirror and pick myself apart. I think that there's this mistake in society that believes that if you are tough or if you are hard on yourself, that somehow that is motivating you. It actually has the opposite effect. Like somehow a lot of us are very successful in life or we get through the day despite the fact that our self-communication and the way we talk to ourselves sounds more like a bully than a best friend. And so a couple years ago, through a combination of just researching a project that I was working on and getting serious about therapy and working on some things in my marriage and really just saying, I don't understand why I've achieved all this stuff, but I am so burnt out and I feel like I army crawl through the day. And it was surprising to me, although looking back, it doesn't seem surprising when you think about self-talk as either being locked in a room with a bully or locked in a room with a best friend. Friend, it was surprising to me how long I lived with a bully in my head. And what I will tell you is this, I am still productive, but I am more motivated, I am happier, and I am able to see the things that are going well because I have changed the way I communicate to myself.

Mm, I love that. Yeah, thank you for taking us on this like 360 journey. I love Dr. Julie Smith, whose new book Open Win is out and is wonderful.

What about tonality, specifically raising your voice for assertion or lowering it almost to get them to lean in to pay attention? Is that any part of your belief system in influence or persuasion in a conversation?

Yeah, the, the idea is you want to lower your voice. No, I'm not talking really low. It's just you want to make sure it's always a downward inflection when you want to make statements that are foundational statements, that are concrete statements, that are, this is my value or my boundary. Um, when you have an upward inflection, it makes it sound like you're always asking a question. Like, if I was going to ask you say, pass the salt. I wouldn't say, can you pass the salt? As if like I doubt your ability to do it, or as if you don't know what salt is. It's the downward inflection. Can you pass the salt? So you want to make sure that you have a lower register instead of something that's really high. Same thing for like music. You take, for example, if you are always listening to fast-paced music, it encourages aggravation. It encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust me, I like all kinds of music, but my point is, if you start to— versus if you listen to something that's more easy listening, it will slow down your brainwaves. It slows down your entire feeling of how you're reacting. So when you are able to use a voice that is lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in control. There's a difference if I were to to say, for example, I already told you I'm not gonna do that, versus I already told you I'm not going to do that. Like, one sounds like it's grasping for control and it's not in control. The other says, I am fully in control of this moment.

Bro, you made me just think of my dad. My dad was a yeller when I was a young man, so he used his voice the worst possible way, right? Aggravation, stress, anxiety. He could take a situation that was a 2 and make it a 22 in like a second. However, as my dad got older, one of the things I noticed about my father when I had a major life problem, like a big, big one, you know, like one of those once every 8 or 9 years I'm in big trouble type things, and I would call my dad he would slow down the conversation. His voice would get deeper. And there was this— just his pacing and tonality calmed me down multiple notches. So much so that to this day, my father's passed away, that I have imaginary conversations with my dad when I'm under stress. Where I am listening and mirroring that specific tonality of his, where he slowed it down and calmed it down and gave me a sense of peace about the conversation to the extent that it was so influential on me that I will have these conversations with him even though he's not here because it calms me down. That's how powerful what you're— yeah, it's how powerful what you're suggesting is that when your children come to you under stress or in trouble, I've, I've worked so hard in those specific moments of just listening to them and slowing it down a little bit, getting a little deeper in my register. Go ahead, you were going to say—

no, I was going to say, you're right, you're, you're spot on, and I love that. I think that is so— I mean, he was your— that was the anchor in the conversation. I find that same way with the kids.

Like, we never—

for the parents that are listening, you never you always want to be the person that your kids run to for help. And you know, when, when they make the mistakes, and if you always yell at them and, uh, raise your voice, they're not going to come to you. But when you can be a safe space and say slowly, thank you for coming to me with this, you know, that's going to just encourage that dialogue. And slowing down is, uh, there's a lot of wisdom in that. There is, brother. As any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online because you want to know, are people going to like the book? That's the whole— you get very nervous. Are you going to deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen, you are not a target. I was once told by my husband, you are an easy target and everyone knows it. Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips. That's what I thought it would be. No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind, I highly recommend. And I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle Edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people. I was just taken aback. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says verified purchaser. This is my point with this, is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number 1 in my book— there are 3 rules. It's rule number 1, say it with control. Number 2, say it with confidence. Number 3, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number 1 is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I can give you, none of it matters if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're going to talk about in this episode what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Anytime that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally through its biology reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments. Even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you, when somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, hey, brain, I didn't like that. And the brain goes, give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that. And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You want to say something back. You get heated. Your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number 1 in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds a distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you. And it also— the other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day there are little things that tell your body, I am threatened. Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic, somebody merges, somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, I am threatened. That's where road rage comes from. I feel threatened in this environment. When you're talking with your kids, when somebody says something to you that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, hey, that feels threatening to me. I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later. Do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you. And we're gonna put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude, whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just just feels like it sets you off, that just— you just explode when somebody does this to you. You got it? You find that word. Now write it down, and right next to it, I want you to write, 'Does not threaten me.' 'Does not threaten me.' So the sentence would be, 'Dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, hey, this does not threaten me. That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body what is happening in front of me is not a threat, right? It's this idea that, um, you have— you've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have like some— maybe a little dog or something, they just go, what is this? It's like a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, hey, what you're doing is— this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it.

Cool.

I'm going to tell you a quick story right now that I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared. This was, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks ago or so. And where was I? I might— I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early, give me a break, is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate, looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs, and then all of a sudden I was outside of it, outside of the, the security, the gate, the terminal. It wasn't the terminal, the gate was actually in a separate terminal, and I just walked myself all the way through. I'd already gone through security, I'd already gone through all the, the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID.

I had—

I started walking out and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, or has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look and I go— I say this out loud— I go, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again. Because I have to know I'm going further down where a separate terminal is. And I say, oh my gosh, I got to do this all over again. And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice, goes, that's why you should read the sign, sir. And I'm trying to find who that is. And I turn and look. And as I'm looking, she goes, you have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs. I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me. Just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I remember being just taken aback. Who, who are you? And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible. And I— hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There are some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was middle-aged lady. Just looked so smug when soon as she said that. And this is what my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was kind of, it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it— I looked at her for like 5 seconds trying to figure out, is this— did she say that? And I just give it time. And now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, how do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Does it give you joy? That's what I said, verbatim. And immediately she got red, like, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I don't have to prompt anything. She goes, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sir. You're right, that wasn't kind. You're right, sir.

I'm sorry.

Yes, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down. And now she was in helping mode. Now she's in helping mode. You can go right here, and this is where it's going to be. I would say, oh, well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right, you have a wonderful day. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life. How are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me, is that what Excuse me, are you talking to me? You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you. It's not going to work. It ain't going to work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today: you are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean— did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response, it's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "You spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character, and 9 times out of 10, The other person sees that because they— because you're giving them time to— are seeing. It's like the blood, the red— it's not blood— the red comes out of their system, you know, or somebody's seeing red. You have to give them time for that to go away, come back to normal, come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not— people are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So, when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that.

Do you lose respect faster when you can tell somebody is not respecting themselves or when somebody says something disrespectful to you?

When somebody says something disrespectful to you. If you don't respect yourself, That's it. That's a place for me to show you grace and kindness and patience. Like, yeah, I'll give you time for that.

I understand.

Yeah, you shouldn't have said that. This is what I'm thinking. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that, but I'm gonna let it go. You know you shouldn't have said it. Versus if they say something like much uglier that was only meant to hurt— again, it depends on context. But yeah, you can lose you can lose respect for them much faster when they choose harm over healing.

Do you think conflict can be settled at all through text messages or online messaging, or do you think with— when it comes to friendships, professional relationships, romantic relationships, it's always going to be best to hop on the phone, video chat, in-person meeting?

Yeah, I mean, they can be if you and the person are mature and intelligent and give each other the benefit of the doubt and not make a, you know, mountain out of a molehill. But if you're not, or if you don't know each other that well, always much wiser to just pick up the phone, let them hear your voice. That makes a, a big difference.

I, I, I do it—

I mean, I do it all the time. Yeah, text, text with my wife and Oof, I got a response that felt very cold. Uh, yeah, anytime you get the K text, okay, oh well, okay, she— they're ready to destroy me, you know, my life is over, I just got a K, or an MK, an MK. Like, there's all different ways that we go, oh, that doesn't sound— that doesn't sound good. It depends on the person. Like, my dad, my dad will just text okay to anything really you, you send him. I just know that's him, and I'll call him and he'll be like, oh, that's fantastic. But, you know, the text you got— so it just depends on the person. But yeah, you're never going to go wrong getting to hear their voice. And besides, a lot of times, like, hearing your voice can make somebody's day.

We, we were—

we are meant to hear and connect and speak as humans. It's not good for humans not to talk to other humans. I was always— there's that show I forgot what it's called. It's like they go up, they send them to Alaska for like, say, spend 100 days alone in Alaska. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Yeah. And for—

and at first they love it. They're so excited.

They build their shelter. They're like, oh yes, I just, you know, got— I just harvested this, uh, rabbit and I'm doing all this. But by like 20 days, they're like, I haven't spoken to anybody. I miss my friends. I miss hearing people's voices. It's the loneliness that gets them. It's not their capability. I just found that really interesting.

What are some subtle ways that people can sound more intelligent when they're speaking? I think sometimes people, when they'll say, when you'll hear people say, if somebody says like a lot or um, that they don't sound as intelligent. I say like a lot and um, and I'm like, I think I still am pretty smart, but I know I can get better. So what are your thoughts on just some subtle ways people can improve?

Yeah, you want to try to eliminate filler words the best you can, but it depends on context. So if you and I are just talking and I'm just being casual, say like and um as much as you want. But if you're in front of a presentation, a group of people, and you need to persuade, like and um become distractions. That's the problem. It's not that they're not comfortable— everybody uses them— it's that they're distractions. And that distraction is telling you, I'm not confident, I'm not knowledgeable, I'm nervous, and people start to pick up on those little bitty things. So all you need to do is just replace that filler with silence, and you sound a thousand times more confident. Then it sounds intentional. But yeah, it doesn't mean that there's something bad about them. I mean, I use them in just normal everyday speech, but it's when you want to— when you're on a different level of conversation with somebody that it makes a difference. So if you're like my boss or something—

you see how I just said that?

If you're like my boss, then if I need to approach you about a salary or whatever, I come up to you and I say, um, yeah, okay, so like, I am— okay, here's the thing, I like am really concerned about my— you've lost them. Yeah, you just wasted 12 seconds of them going, okay, whatever is coming out of your mouth, I'm already not wanting to hear it. Or if you say, uh, hey, I hate to bother you— like, great, you just told them, I— what I'm about to do is bother you, so, so buckle in. You know, there's these just phrases and ways to talk that they aren't going to be the best foot forward if you want to come off with confidence.

So the best way is just to be direct, like if you were talking to your boss and you wanted to raise, saying something like Hey, I want to talk to you about something that's super important to me.

I would even make it more specific. I'd like to talk to you about my salary. When's the best time we can visit? Okay. Yeah, just right out of the gate. And there's no question because you have to think of from their point of view as somebody who's of the employer side, what are they thinking? They don't want to be blindsided either. So why do you make it to where you wait until you're face to face for them to have any clue of what you're talking about. You need to be able to prep them for that conversation. You need to let them massage it, let them think about things. So the more specific, the better.

And you think it's better just to lead with that out of the gate? Because sometimes people will put a buffer at the beginning, like, hey, hope you're doing well, hope you had a great weekend, hope that blah blah blah.

Yeah, you just think it's just be direct with it. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, because it— they know that's not— that doesn't matter. They know it. It's the same way with delivering bad news, right? If you're going to deliver bad news, same— delivering bad news is the same way of delivering sensitive— want to have a sensitive conversation with somebody. If, if you are— I need to deliver bad news and I say, hey, so how are you? So how you been? I know, I know. Yeah, you doing good? You feeling all right?

Okay, okay.

Well, I got, I got some things to tell you and I mean, you're just going— just making them twist off in the wind of going, okay, what's happening? What's going on here? Are you quitting? Are you not quitting? What's going on? Versus if you come out right out of the gate, you know, with bad news, they say— just go, I got bad news, and give it a 2-second beat. I need to let you go. Well, now they know.

Great.

But if you have need to have a sensitive conversation about something, it's much easier to say, hey, I need to talk to you about what you said at the party on Friday. When's a good time to talk? It'd be very specific, and then, then they know, then they're prepared. Instead of just the vague text, we need to talk, period. Nobody likes that. Nobody loves that text. We need to talk. Talk about what? Yeah, be more specific.

And if the other person doesn't respond to that, do you give them any time window before, like I mean, like, for instance, like, if it's a relationship situation, you're texting somebody like, hey, I'd like to speak with you about what you said to me on Friday, and they don't respond to you about it, or they beat around the bush or whatever. Do you follow up with them about it in a few days, a few, like, a week? Like, how does, how do you handle that? Because sometimes that does happen.

Yeah, well, it depends how much that person matters to you, but the fact that they don't want to interact should mean maybe you've made a mistake. On how high up that person is on your priority list or how important you are to that person. Because often, you know, people will want you for what you give them, not the other way around. And so if they're not willing to talk with you and reason with you and empathize with you and listen, they may not be your person. They might just want to use you for whatever. I feel like if they're not one to engage, that is a big red flag of they don't value you as much as you think they do, which is a hard realization. How some people just might— they might miss the text, they might not get it, they might try and push it off. But understand, if it's important to you, it should be important to them.

If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you?

It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really want to portray confidence, there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big. You need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. That does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just— you're sitting with me, uh, or with anybody, and you come on super strong, that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation, or it's going, oh, this is, this is, this is too much. I'm just getting to, to know you. So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I want to portray confidence, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I'm focused right with you. My chin's up. I'm not looking down. My shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy.

Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations?

A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It's just overcompensating most of the time. If somebody is— you're wanting to project high energy, it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people, you're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it. You need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates.

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with who— with the person that I was. I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me, um, because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering, I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms— fitness, my relationship to myself, my personal relationships, purpose, and so on— that, that allowed me to be able to, I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high value, high level of self-respect, et cetera? Or is it just exposure therapy through practice, through having conversations like this?

It's a comfort with yourself. Exposure helps just by repetition. You can only know so much. It has to have application. It comes from within. I see this a lot of time at a jury trial. So as a litigator, I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They want to need to portray some— maybe they need to portray sympathy, hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense. About them. We can just tell. There's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, that person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is— I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it. You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are, but that typically draws away.

It doesn't—

it rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. People, leave the window fronts for shopping, but don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down because after a while it's just going to be friction. And that's going to have a rub and that's going to get worn and that's going to be hard to— you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right? Where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do, and people can pick up on that right away. But I will say, I think on the opposite end of that, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell like they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And people who walk with and looking at the ground when they're walking because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So, do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident. How, in your experience, like, what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person, which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

It's a, it's a balance, and that balance is specific to context. It's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors. There's this fear, and it's a type of psychological threat of identity, and that makes you question, what if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment? And that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake, but it causes you to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always, always needing to be the person to say something, often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person, knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is Understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this, this understanding of, I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am. And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more, when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's always the reverse of what we originally think.

I want to ask you, you know, with what's happening with the offering you're putting out in the world of teaching people how to communicate. I'm curious for you, Jefferson, like, what are some of the traits that you admire most in people who you feel are the best communicators in the world?

The number one would be warmth. And people that you just— you don't even have to talk to them. You can sit in a room and just feel it. And maybe it's their energy. Maybe the vibe, maybe it's their spirit, just whatever it is, the frequency that they're putting out into the world calms you. And I find that to be very— it makes you attracted to them because you like that warmth and that comfort that when you talk to them, you feel just a little bit calmer. And so people who communicate very well are not only good at being clear and direct and assertive, but they're also emotionally intelligent enough to know when to slow down. Because things are so busy and we ramp up, but they know that good communication happens in the smallest of words, the shortest of sentences.

When someone allows their warmth to just be, do you feel like it's easier to listen to them and be around them? Because I think a lot of people, especially women, feel like, "Oh, I've gotta—" "if I show my warmth, I'm weak, and I need to," you know, all the things. And I just think that's kind of powerful and insightful, what you just shared, is that when you think of the best communicators, that there's a warmth.

[Speaker] Yeah, well, I think you'd agree, you never wanna hide your light. And I mean, there's so many opportunities that we have to do that, and it's leaning into it. If people feel like, "Well, I'm gonna be weak if I'm perceived this way," Just if you go by how you listen to music, things that are very fast affect you, makes your mind race. When somebody's talking really, really quickly and then you can't hardly understand what they're saying and they're getting ramped up and ramped up, that kind of gets you and your anxiety up. But people who slow down and they show more control, it's not the opposite. They show more control. More confidence. When you're adding distance to your communication, you are showing them that you are comfortable exactly where you are. And that also shines onto them to show that, and where you are is okay too.

One thing that you seem so masterful at that I feel like I need to work on more is this idea of pausing and of giving space space. And this is gonna be a big thing for everyone listening because when we dive into all the different topics that are gonna affect our lives in so many different ways, when we start applying the tools that you share, there's this consistent theme of pause and of space. And I'll never forget the first time I ever gave even a keynote speech, right? It was like a room of, I think it was like 10,000 people. And all this stuff was, it was for, Brandon Burchard event, actually. And it was the first time outside of IT Cosmetics. And it was a long story, but he's like, "I have an opening." And I'm like, "I'm in." And it was this hour spot. And it was the most phenomenal hour. But every time people cheered or even stood up and cheered or any of the things, 'cause it was really fun. And I was just like pouring into them. I didn't know how to pause. The second they started clapping, Didn't know, and I just kept talking. And I remember afterwards he came up to me and he says, first of all, like he said a million great things, which I'm so grateful for. And then he's like, you need to learn how to pause and let the audience like have their moment. Like they're excited, they're cheering for you, they're into it, they're so excited that you overcame this huge obstacle. And I was like, huh, I didn't know how to let the pause happen. And what I love is you guys, you give so many examples in your book of ways the pause is so powerful. But just really high level, this is for everyone listening, I want you to think right now as you're hearing me and Jefferson talk about this. When you're talking with someone, do you ever just pause and like let there be space? And maybe you're looking at them in the eye, or do you start to feel uncomfortable and wanna fill the space with words? Can you talk about the power, the power of the pause and how right now everyone at home, like different ways you can use just pausing in your communication and how it actually literally helps change your life. Yeah.

Yeah.

The pausing is the most powerful tool you can use in communication because it gives you time to choose things. It gives you time to choose, is this worth my words? Is this worth my attention? It also gives you a chance to calm your own emotions, to regulate your emotions. It gives you time to think. And when you're able to pause in conversation, it allows you to show control. If you were to ask me, Jamie, if you said, Jefferson, how was your day? And I immediately said, good.

I mean, my day was fine.

It was good.

It was good.

That tells you one thing. If you ask me again, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, It was good. It was good. Very different connotation. What you're telling in the first one is, I didn't really listen to your question.

The second pause is kind of clarifying of, I listened to you.

When somebody even gives you 1 second, 2 seconds of a pause after a question, it tells you that they're thinking about it. And it's allowing you to show that you're actually acknowledging, taking it in. Before you just spit out a response right away. Because we're such in a world of immediacy, of texting back right away, having that clapback as soon as you get it out. And where the real power in communication is, is slowing things down. It's the pause. Because it allows the other people, just like you said, when you're speaking to people and maybe they clap or they cheer, it's allowing them to contribute to the conversation.

I just had a big aha moment, like a big aha moment. I'm ready. Because at our core, we all just wanna be seen and understood and also feel connection and belonging. And so many people feel so lonely right now. And often, you know, social media can be great in so many ways, but we're lonelier than ever. And one tip you just gave, I think this is so big and I wanna say it. In the way where it really hit me is that example you gave. 'Cause we all have this happen every day, right? How are you? You know, we go and grab a coffee and, you know, we might ask the person ringing us up, how are you? Or they might ask us, how are you? And we just default, oh, I'm great, thanks, how are you? You know, whatever, boom, boom. And we don't even know what we're saying. It's just like autopilot. And yet we're all lonely and we all want more connection. And we're like, why is my husband and I sitting here scrolling our phone? And I don't even know how he's doing. I told him how I was, but I don't think he cared. Like whatever our scenario is, or, you know, moms at school drop-off or whatever it might be, that example you just gave is so powerful and it's so relatable because, you know, when someone says, "How are you?" And you're like, "Oh, I'm good, thanks." There's pretty much no connection happening, right? And when someone says, "How are you?" And you just pause, And you think about it, and then you say your answer. Maybe it's like, I'm good, or whatever it is. That pause instantly tells that other person, I see you. You matter to me. I'm giving you my energy and consideration, 'cause I care to connect with you over the question you asked me. Yeah, you got it. Holy moly. That is like instant hack to connection with humans, and we're all, So many of us are just feeling like we're missing that in our lives more and more. I have heard you use the pause in so many different ways. And this is the first time I'm having this big aha over this, because right now, every person listening, every person watching us right now, today, they can watch it, walk into a coffee shop. They can look at the person sitting next to them in the room right now, right? They can, whatever, next time they're interacting with people, and someone asks them this, or they ask someone else that, add this pause in it. Yes. Because then it almost catches someone off guard too, and they realize you are— you're connecting with them, right?

You're connecting with them. Yes. When you're able to ask that question—

I'm gonna do this with my husband tonight. You should do it. I'm doing it tonight. I'm doing it tonight. And I'm gonna do it with my kids, actually. I'm gonna do it with my kids too.

Well, it's so— um, what we fall into is instead of living in it, we just We're just pressing the buttons. You know, the barista asks, "How's your day?" "Oh, it's good.

I'm fine. How are you?" "Oh, I'm good.

I'm fine." We're just pressing buttons. We're not really living in it. Let me tell you the one trick to making sure that it does work with your kids and with your husband.

We want the tricks.

We want the tips.

This is what I live by, and I teach this to every one of my clients, and it is this: let your breath be the first word that you say. So where your first word would be of going, "No, I'm good, I'm good," you put a breath in its place. And so when you have the mindset of a breath being the word, I mean, it's because you're saying something even in that pause, in that breath, in that silence. It might be the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication. So if you ask me how my day was, And I go, I conveyed something right there. That's a sigh. I'm sending the message to you without words. It was heavy. It was a load. It was a lot. I mean, yeah. And when you have that pause, it's the invitation to connect. Hmm.

So good.

Yeah. So good.

Oh my gosh. Okay. I'm already excited for the way everyone is going to share how this impacts their life. Yes. Like, the DMs are gonna come in, comments, the messages, and we're just getting started. But that one tool, that one tool, I'm just thinking about, and the ripple effect of that. Yeah. Because as a society, we're really close to bankrupt when it comes to like true, just connection.

It really is. And the thing with communication, what it makes it so important on top of just the pause and the ability to take a moment and express how you really feel, is that what you say for the vast majority of your life is who you are. That's how people will experience you. That's how people will experience Jamie. That's how people will experience Jefferson. It's not by really what you do, though they might see that that act of kindness, it's what you say. When you say, "I like that person," you just met them. You say, "I like that person, they were nice." What you really mean is they said nice things. Somebody's rude and you don't like them, "That person's rude," just means that what you heard is you didn't like, it sounded rude to you. So for the vast majority, it is your words is what describes who you are to those people. That's what's gonna describe evaluate your legacy. That's the ripple effect. One major question that I see a lot of people asking is, how did you teach—

I say me, but really all of us, all of my siblings—

the balance between being assertive, meaning not being a wallflower and getting stepped over? How do you also balance kindness? You want to not be rude to somebody, but at the same time, you want to be very direct. I'm curious if y'all had any mindset or tools for how you thought or how you gave me advice about that. Like, for example, Dad, you would tell me if I came to complain about something, you'd say, don't make that your alamo. That's what you'd say. You say, don't make that your alamo. In other words, don't, don't be that— let that be the hill to die on. Um, and there was this kind of sense of So, you know, I mean, the kind of the— when Jonathan was upset that Mom was all in his business and he's— and Mom just— and you say, so? I mean, there are just things about that. I'm just curious what the balance was like for y'all, what y'all saw. You want to go first?

You go ahead. I don't remember you having a problem with assertiveness. You were always very assertive. You were never timid, and you did it with a cheerful disposition. So you had a very cheerful, assertive disposition as a child, and you were rarely disrespectful. And because we had a zero tolerance for that, you quickly, quickly stopped. And so I don't remember us having to encourage you to be assertive. What I can remember doing is, is sitting down and explaining maybe how do you deal with disappointments or something that didn't go well. Just, well, you know, don't worry about it, right? And be thankful. That was one thing y'all hated, you know, say, well, give me 10 things that you're thankful for. Yeah. And that's a good way to do it with a child. And, you know, and you start, well, I'm thankful for Daddy. Daddy and Mama. Yeah, yeah. You know, Sarah and Jonathan. No, no, not family members. What are some things you're thankful for? Uh, the downside was, is when I'd get upset, y'all would turn it on me. He said, Daddy, there's 10 things you're thankful for. Yeah, yeah. Turnabout was fair play. But, um, y'all were— y'all really were— y'all were sweet children. And yeah, and I give that to your mama because she, she demanded respect, not only for herself and for the parents, but for y'all to respect each other. Yeah. And to defend each other and to be kind to one another. I don't remember y'all ever coming to blows.

You know, that was never in the question.

And, you know, every now and then y'all would yin-yang. And, but she really did a good, good job of saying, that's enough. Yeah.

How did you see that mom Maybe not with just assertiveness, but on top of how you— when we say zero tolerance policy, like what was your mindset of what you— how you would handle me or any of us when we said something that was disrespectful, which I'm sure was very few times, Mama.

I can just— I just remember saying, you're not going to talk to me like that. That's not acceptable to me. Yeah. You say, yes ma'am, no ma'am. And sometimes it's not only what you say, but the tone. Yeah. You know, and I'd say you better watch your tone. Yes.

That's true.

Would you like to say that again? Yes. A little bit more respectfully too. Yeah.

Yeah. Mama would always say, let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something.

They say that a lot. I can remember you being just in your little infant stroller. Yeah, you were a very strong-willed child, right? Not in a mean way, but you were very strong-willed. Yeah, and you'd go over and start, you know, knocking off the magazines. And, and, you know, even from a very young child, would, you know, just not hurting you, but spat your hand or say, no, don't do that. Yeah. And then you'd go back and you'd do it again and would have to discipline you then again. And discipline you again and maybe do it 4 or 5 times in a row. And finally, that 4th or 5th time, you go up to it and look at it and look at us to see whether we're watching. And we just look at you and you'd pull the hand back and you'd scoot off and do something different. Yeah, his walker. In your walker. I mean, that's when you were those little bitty walkers. And so I think that we were, we were consistent.

Yes, that's part of it right there.

And that's what what's so hard for parents is, is they'll do it a couple times or say, well, I'm going to count to 3. No, no, we don't do that. If I tell you to stop, stop. And if you don't, then there's a little bit of— not, not being abusive in any way, but there's a repercussion. But you were a people pleaser in the sense that you wanted your parents to be happy to you. In fact, that's what you would say when you were a child. We wouldn't discipline you. You'd say, please be happy to me. Yeah. Happy to me. And you want to be held. And so you wanted to please us. And so it hurt your heart to know any displeasure. Right. And so it's— but it's important for children to know the boundaries. It's important to be consistent. And it's so hard for a parent to stay consistent. Yeah. They do it a couple of times. It's just worn you out. You got it. They're looking— kids are looking for boundaries and they're always going to push them. Yeah. And you want them to do that. It means there's something— they've got a strong personality, which is good, which is good. You just got to mold it right in a way that's helpful without breaking their spirit. And you can do it. You're not going to break their spirit by spitting in their hand.

You just know. Yeah. And it was barely just like, no, no. Oh yeah.

No, it was not like a— Yeah, it was not like a spanking hard way.

It's amazing how smart children are. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. How did you see the dynamic between— once— so I'm the oldest of 4. There's Sarah, Jonathan, Jacob. Once Sarah was born, Jonathan, Jacob, you know, how did you see me being from, you know, a one child, um, by myself to now kind of taking on this role as brother. And how did you feel like you saw that develop in me and little things maybe you saw in communication? And the reason why is I'm asking is so that anybody listening can spot some things of like how they saw the oldest child versus the youngest child and how you saw some of those dynamics change in our house?

Well, when I was pregnant with Sarah, I just didn't want you to feel left out. And I remember telling you when I was pregnant, this is going to be your baby sister. She's going to be your baby sister. And you were so excited when she was born and very protective of her and very proud. I don't feel like you were ever jealous of her. And I feel like with each one, you just kind of just enlarge your brother, big brother role. You were always very kind, very protective of them. And even with Sarah, she was kind of a late talker because you talked for her. Yeah, she would point and you'd go, Mama, she wants this. Yeah.

And then when Jonathan—

Yeah, same thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Jonathan, my younger brother Jonathan couldn't say say his vowels very well.

And so, um, consonants, we called him the vowel man.

The first consonant of every word he dropped off.

Yeah, that's what he called him, our vowel man.

Yeah, and that's, that was what he did. So I just kind of became that. I loved, I still love being big brother. There's a theme that I, I pick up on, and I'm sure anybody who's listening senses this from you, Mama, and is just the kindness. I don't know a single person or human that does not like mama. And so you've always radiated kindness. And yeah, of course. And I got to see a lot of that growing up because I can remember coming in saying that somebody had done something that made me upset and I'd bring it to you to complain and you'd say, well, were you kind? And I'd say, but, but Mom, you don't understand.

They got it.

And you didn't, you wouldn't have any of it. You just say, well, I think you should be kind. I mean, that was, that was the whole outlook from that. So what, how do you see kindness? And what does it mean to you? How do you, how do you like to put it out into the world?

What's your secret? Oh, goodness.

I don't know if there is a secret, but kindness matters. And I just— you always had such a sweetheart. You had a very sweet heart. I think you were naturally kind, but I wouldn't let y'all be rude and ugly to each other when y'all were fighting. I wouldn't let you name-call or any of that. I would say, no, y'all are going to be sweet to each other.

I had a zero tolerance for unkindness among the siblings. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you had a— I can remember there was— it was very early on for people listening in the South. It's yes ma'am, no ma'am. That is a sign of respect and manners. And if you said it, you expected that to be it. Yes.

Like, I didn't really like a lot of arguing. I just say, all I need to hear is yes ma'am.

Yeah, that's—

All I want to hear is yes ma'am.

That's very true. I think I just got— I think I just had PTSD for a second hearing all that. Uh, yeah.

There's no sense in arguing about it.

You're talking about kindness and the role that you stepped into is you took ownership. Yes. You felt that they were, they really were your brothers and your sisters. You know, they'd call you and you'd, when you would create a persona, Chef Baba. Yeah. And you loved, you loved, you asked really Can we quit having babysitters? Can I babysit? Yeah. You know, you took that ownership and it was probably a lot of, of pressure. A lot of kids aren't asked to do things like that, but you seem to enjoy it and thrive with it. And it really made you mature. Yeah. Way, way early. You were kind of an old soul even though you were a kid. Yeah. And you were in a way almost like a second father because there was a little distance in time. But you, you did it because you enjoyed them. Yeah. And you poured yourself into them. You were talking a second ago about how your mother was kind. And so you were very defensive about that. And I remember the story where that boy came up to you in day school and said, you're mean. And you came up and you pushed him down.

You were only 4.

You pushed him down and said, my mama is not mean. Yeah.

And I was like, Jefferson, whoa, whoa, whoa.

And so you just— yeah, you were defensive for your parents too. Yeah. Yeah.

Very, very defensive. I mean, it's one thing for you to say something about your mama, but somebody else says something about your mama, that's Those are fighting words every single time. I want to turn gears a little bit to specifically conflict and arguments. I remember in y'all's— and growing up in our house, y'all really did not argue in front of us. I mean, there were just normal spats, but when it came to serious arguing, y'all did it in y'all's room, because I can remember, like, keeping the kids away. I was like, Mom and Dad are talking, y'all go down the hall. That's right. Let's, you know, go entertain them for whatever. And then, or if it was late at night, you know, after the kids go to bed, and I was older, so it wasn't like, um, it wasn't that big of a house. I mean, if y'all were talking seriously, you could hear voices. I didn't know y'all were saying. Outside of when we were in the car, I mean, of course, if you're late, late for church, everybody's just— yeah, yeah. Taking off on vacation. Yeah, yeah, on vacation for sure. Then you have to— your argument. But I'm curious on y'all's take about— for people who are just rethinking how they saw arguments happen in their life. I'm curious how you saw it with your parents. And how that shaped how y'all did it with us, specifically conflict.

I know with my parents, they didn't argue in front of us very often. They did the same thing back in the, in the bedroom rule. Yeah. And I think that's a really good policy. And the truth is, because if you get into a heated argument in front of the kids, they almost always blame themselves. What?

Oh, yeah.

What did I do wrong? Yeah. What did I do wrong? That's a good point. You know, Oh, I should have done something. And they internalize it. And so we really, we were friends for long before we got married. And we just, we both agreed, we're not going to have that kind of argument in front of the children. Now it's important for them to know that you disagree sometimes. And we would disagree that a marriage never has arguments because they need, they need to see then after the argument, they need to see mom and daddy holding hands, mom and daddy hugging. Mom and daddy kissing, to know that you can argue and still love each other. And that's just, that's just crucial. There's some people who keep the conflict so far away from the kids, the kids don't have any way to process it. And then there's some kids who they are in the middle of just horrible conflict. And that's neither of those extremes are really healthy for kids.

Yeah, I totally agree. Because there's the flip side of you don't want to have zero conflict where you only have conflict in the bedroom. Conflict, something's wrong. Exactly. And so one thing y'all are so good at that I know I've applied to my marriage is y'all are very quick to forgive. Y'all are very quick to say I'm sorry. And I think that plays a big role in how long the argument lasts. Because if you just— for people who withhold that apology, like they use it almost as a punishment in a way when they're withholding that. But I absolutely agree that on the flip side, having knockdown, drag-out arguments is not healthy. At the same time, you want to see— you want the kids to see you come to resolution. Right, right. But I've had that too, where it is my son thinks that he did something wrong when we're arguing, or he'll mistake just banter and playful banter as argument, as conflict. And we kind of have to say, "No, no, no, we're not arguing." And I think some kids are very perceptive of that, more sensitive to that. My daughter could really care less. Son is especially in tune with what we're talking about. I mean, you remember, I won't— I'm not gonna say his name, but I was— I grew up with a friend who lived not too far down the street, and his parents argued in front of us, like really did. And I remember looking like, is everything okay? And he just acted like nothing happened. I mean, just kept eating his cereal.

I mean, never Never looked up. Never.

Yeah. And I think so many people are now realizing in their own life how they handle conflict, you know, having, having that struggle to apologize, having those hard times. They don't— they're now seeing that reflected of how they, they grew up. Yeah. I'm so— I'm curious, Mom, how, what did you— how did you grow up with conflict?

No, my parents, uh, argued in front of us. And I didn't feel like that was a good thing.

So you, you saw the negatives.

It would escalate. And, you know, I saw the yelling knockdown drag-outs. Yeah. And it was not good. So I determined in my heart that I was never going to do that to my children. Yeah. And so I wasn't a yeller.

I really wasn't. That's true.

I can attest to that.

I really wasn't a yeller. Very rarely.

Very rarely. But my level, because I maintained a really calm voice most of the time, like if I raised my voice because I was aggravated, let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, I raised it to a 4, y'all would say, mama, you don't need to yell. And I would be very offended because in my mind that was only a 4. Yeah. Because I was like, no, no, no, you don't understand. I used to hear 15 paint at my house. Right. Yeah. So a little bit different. Yeah. I would be highly offended because I was like, this is not yelling. This is just raising my voice. Yeah. Because I'm aggravated. Yeah.

You said one other thing a little bit earlier. I think it's really important is the willingness and the— not only the willingness, but to do it, to say I'm sorry. Yeah, I was wrong in front of your kids. Yes. Now, whether it's because I say that to my wife I was wrong. I'm sorry. And but to say it to your kids. Yeah. Because sometimes we can misjudge what they did or why they did it. Or, you know, maybe one, they're picking on each other and one started it and you jump to a conclusion too quickly. And it's important to be able to say, I'm sorry, I was, I was wrong. Right. I was wrong. Will you forgive me? Yeah. And I think that's really important for dads, especially because I know people who say my dad never said he was sorry. Yeah. And I just can't imagine that. I mean, yeah, you know, we mess up regularly and just need to tell people, I'm sorry, I was— I'm sorry, I was wrong.

I think that's, that's a crucial point. It's not just to apologize, not just so your kid hears you apologize to your spouse, but, but also that they hear, I am sorry, because you're not perfect either. Exactly.

And that's not a sign of weakness. Yeah, that's a sign of strength in my, in my mind. That's just— yeah, I agree. To say I'm, I'm secure enough about myself to admit that I was wrong. Yeah, I can—

what can we do to fix it? Yeah, confidence is, is, um, not all about only saying it when you're right. It's, it's admitting when you're wrong.

That's, that's where the confidence— people can't say I'm sorry and I was wrong.

Yeah, that's it.

That's very true. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.