Happiness Expert: Communication Hacks That Instantly Boost Your Mood

Today in this episode, at the end of it, I promise you, you're going to feel a little happier. Today I have brought you what I would consider to be the world's number one influential leader on happiness. Today is Gretchen Rubin. She is amazing. Her resume needs no introduction. Her name has been actually an answer in Jeopardy, and that tells you the status of Gretchen. She was also a clerk for Sandra Day O'Connor at the Supreme Court. As an attorney, totally nerded out after that. She went to Yale Law School, so she's a fellow attorney, and she loves turning big complex ideas into very short, simple theories, as you know, listening, which I am all about. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time here today.

I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Yeah, this is just fantastic. So I want to, um, I already have your book, which we're going to go into. And I, I also first want to talk about, uh, you have multiple books. She's, y'all, she's written multiple books on all kinds of different topics. The biggest one right now that I also have is The Happiness Project, which I had already bought a long time ago. Um, I would love for you just to kind of introduce your concepts of Happiness. To me, you are the, the leading expert on all things happiness and human nature.

Yeah.

Well, yes, I love studying happiness because it's, it's everything, right? It's relationships, it's exercise, it's creativity, it's how we organize our spaces. It's the 5 senses. It's— there's so many avenues to pursue within this larger subject of happiness. So, yeah. And The Happiness Project, that's where I sort of laid out my basic framework for happiness. And then ever since then, I've just gone and deeper and deeper and deeper into it. Like I have a personality framework that divides people into 4 categories. And I stumbled onto that distinction as I was writing my book, Better Than Before, which is all about habit change. Because if you're talking to people about how to be happier, very often you very quickly get to the issue of habits because people are like, I know I would be happier if I got more sleep or stopped doom scrolling or read more.

Precise.

If you know me, you know I like distilling big ideas into something very short, simple, practical. That's exactly what this is. In fact, it's a very small book. It's very easy because it's full of what I would call, and I know you're going to give me the more technical term, is isms. Little isms of things. Like my, as you know, I'm also a trial attorney and we have a bunch of attorneys in my family. So it's just old Southern isms all the time. I think like we only talk in isms.

Love it.

Yeah.

I call those proverbs of the professions, which is like, oh yeah, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, or, you know, the house always wins or whatever. Yep. I love, I love proverbs of the professions.

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Do you find that when you're studying happiness, how important is communication and how we communicate to each other?

Well, it's extremely important because if you had to pick one thing to be the key to happiness, Now, you could answer that question in a couple of different ways depending on sort of what perspective you're taking on happiness. But certainly one answer might be, and maybe the best answer would be relationships, because as human beings, we need intimate, enduring bonds to be happier. We are among the most social creatures on the planet. We need to feel like we belong. We need to be able to get support. And just as important to happiness, we need to be able to give support. We need to be able to confide. We need to feel like we have strong relationships with other people. And when you look at the people who say they're happier, people are happier when they have more friends. People are happier when they have a friend at work.

Relationships really, really matter. And what is key to relationships? Communication. Because that— it's the communication that allows us to maintain enduring bonds over years and separation. It's the communication that allows us to work through conflict. Resentment, pure bafflement. It's the kind of communication that lets us feel like we can confide an important secret and that other people have our back, that we feel trusted and understood. So communication is really, really important for a happy life.

Do you find that there are certain tools that our listeners can use in your studies that you've seen that are practical strategies that they can use to increase their happiness?

Oh, I've got a million. I mean, that's kind of my mission in life.

I know you do.

I mean, give me some of your favorite. Get enough sleep, get some exercise, never overlook your body. Many people go straight to some kind of abstract thing or like, oh my God, I gotta start a meditation practice. And I'm like, are you getting enough sleep? And are you getting like some movement in your day? Like always begin with the basics like that. Are you getting morning light in your house? Your face. Like, there's all this research about the circadian rhythm now, um, because people often overlook their physical condition. But their— your physical condition is always going to influence your mental and emotional condition. So you want to just make sure that you, you're taking care of the basics. Another thing is, if you're trying to figure out how to spend your precious time, energy, or money, number one should be relationships, for all the reasons we just talked about. Like, if you're thinking, should I spend the money to go to my college reunion? Should I make the effort to go see my, my co-worker's new baby? It's like Probably yes, you should, because anything that deepens or runs relationships is something that's likely to make you happier. For a lot of people, not everybody importantly, but for a lot of people, outer order contributes to inner calm. And sometimes, like, a lot of people love, uh, the hack of the 1-minute rule of anything you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. Um, and that just gets rid of that scum of clutter and tasks on the surface of life. You know, if you're you're putting a mug in the dishwasher, you're putting a piece of paper in a folder, or you're shredding something and getting it off your desk. Like, this gives people a disproportionate sense of energy and focus. Another thing, I wrote a whole book called "Life in Five Senses" that's all about tapping into the five senses. And one thing is to really think about your sensory environment because sometimes we don't really pay attention. And so it's like, if you go, if you make like a, if you give like a salute while you're sitting at your desk and you feel relief in your eyes, that means there's too much light. Or maybe there's not enough light. Or maybe you have started working from home and you're still using some horrible hard dining room chair as your desk chair instead of getting a proper chair.

Hey, take it easy. Take it easy.

Yeah, maybe you don't like your sound environment. Okay, so for you, when you're trying to do like your most intense work, do you like silence, music without words, music with words, like chatter, busy chatter like a coffee shop, or cacophony? What do you prefer? I like silence. What do you like?

If I'm reading.

Or if you're doing your most intense work, is that what you're—

Then I need quiet. I need quiet 'cause most of the time I'm hearing it in my head. But if I'm doing something that is meaningless, like just going through emails or sorting them, I'm blaring some music.

Interesting. See, everybody has a different kind of sensory environment, which is why when they have studies when they're like, like jazz music, you know, increases creativity. I'm like, maybe for some people, but for others not, you know what I mean?

Because, right.

And then there's things like this is, and this goes to self-knowledge, which is, are you creating an environment that works for you?

Like what, with what's under your control? Because we can't control everything, but some things we can control. Like another distinction in terms of how we work is simplicity lovers and abundance lovers. So simplicity lovers like me, like bare surfaces and clear shelves and not that much going on, a lot of like really spare. And then abundance lovers like profusion and choice and collections and buzz and a lot going on. And like, it's fine to be either one, but if you're in an office situation and you're a simplicity lover and the person sitting like at the, at the, you know, in an open office sitting next to you as an abundance lover, like you might really feel distracted by that. So anyway, it's just self-knowledge and trying to think about what you can do within your control to make your life reflect the circumstances that work best for you.

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Did you find— when it— part of the census too is like colors.

I love color. Oh, I went through a whole period of being so preoccupied by color.

What was some of your takeaways here? What are some of the colors of happiness that we can— because I'm about to go in my closet and put them on.

Well, one thing that's interesting is there's no— like, people say like, like red is energizing. No, that's not true. These are all these are all cultural associations. So there's no inherent meaning to a certain kind of color, but it's whatever color makes you happy. Like, that's just— some people like neutrals and some people like really bright and some people like patterns. Like, I don't like patterns very much. I like a monochrome. But, you know, it's whatever it ever— whatever works for you. Again, like, it's very interesting. People want, like, there to be, like, a chart where everything corresponds.

Yeah.

And I could see that. And it's interesting, and this is true also from Life in Five Senses with smell. Like there are actually ingrained like preferences that we're born with. And that's really important because as a newborn, what you put in your mouth could kill you. So it's really important that even as a newborn, you know that if something's very bitter, it's more likely to be toxic. And if it's sweet, it's more likely to be nutritious. And so we're born, from the get-go thinking that bitter is bad and sweet is good. But we don't have any preferences for smells because the world does not offer us killer smells. And so all of the associations that rose smells good and, you know, whatever smells bad, these are purely cultural associations, which is kind of hard to wrap your mind around, right? Because you just say like, well, obviously this smells bad. But it's like, no, you've just been taught that it smells bad.

How interesting. I want to change gears here real quick. And I have to say, I love that you're also an attorney. And I wonder how much us having gone through law school has affected how we think of communication and we think of We think really critically about things, I found. I mean, there's nothing an attorney loves more than being suspicious of just about everything. And we like to overthink, overanalyze. We like to play devil's advocate, and we like to very much synthesize. Like as a trial attorney, I'm taking a lot of big information, what might be 3 years worth of a case for a client, and I have to distill it. To two sentences that I'm about to tell the jury. And the same thing as you do in your practice. So I'm very curious for those who might be attorneys listening right now or interested in law school, I'm very, or they might be related to one. What do you think are some things as attorneys that we've been taught in our brains or maybe just the kind of personalities that we are affect how we have the lens on the world?

Yeah, it's a really interesting question because one of the things about law school is it definitely changes the way you think. And it's very— it's a very interesting process. Like, I remember as a first year being like, wow, this is really changing the way that I think. And I can feel the rewiring happening. It's, it's really very profound. Part of it is having a vocabulary to describe things that before, like, I remember learning about constructive eviction. And be like, I love that there's a word for that. Or acting in reliance. I was like, I'm so happy to know that there's a term for that because like we all know about acting in reliance, but I didn't know that there was a frame for it. So part of it is having a more sophisticated vocabulary.

Another is having just a more, a deeper understanding of how the world works because I was shockingly uninformed about like how courts worked and how the government works.

Oh my, yeah. And laws. Yeah, yeah.

I'm with you.

Like, you know, the common law.

I'm like, what? I remember like the first day of class, somebody was like, the answer was like the common law. I was like, whoa, I did not get the summer reading list on this because I didn't know that answer. Anyway, but what I really think helped, and this is really what informs me, there's two ways that it's affected me as a writer. One is, I think as a lawyer, you always say, but what if I were gonna argue the other side? What if somebody was gonna argue exactly the opposite? Because when I read a lot of op-eds or articles or things, people are arguing and arguing and arguing assuming that they're right. And I'm like, but you're not at all taking into account all the counterarguments. And so you're just jumping over massive assumptions that as a lawyer, we would have to lay every single piece of, of a foundation for everything that we're saying.

And like, so I clerked on the Supreme Court and I remember, you know, and of course, which is incredible, by the way, like for anybody listening, that's very rare. That's extremely, that's like, The top 0.0001% putting that out there. Yeah, that's awesome.

Well, and one of the things is every case that comes to the Supreme Court is by definition a hard case, because if it were easy, it would have been settled by the lower courts. And I remember over and over having the feeling like I'd read the briefs on one side and I'd be like, wow, gosh, good, excellent. This one's easy. Okay. Like, the law's here, the facts are here, precedent is here. This is a slam dunk. I don't know why everybody's, you know, why is the court wasting its time on this one? Then you read the other brief and you're like, whoa, step back. Now I have a whole different picture of what's going on. Now somebody is telling me exactly the same story from a different perspective and arguing and pulling out and shading the whole thing differently. And over and over, just seeing this. And this really taught me as a writer. Now, one thing I learned as a writer, as a writer for a popular audience, for a wide audience, is like, oh my gosh, I will never write like a lawyer again because it's so horrible. It's so boring. It has to be so detailed, so precise. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I love just trying to really be so clear and so concise in my own writing. But like, I remember there was a day where, and I remember this so well, I was writing a biography of Winston Churchill. It's called 40 Ways to Look at Winston Churchill. It was just an absolute joy to write that book. I'm just absolutely so fascinated by Winston Churchill. But I remember there was a line in that biography and I was like, Okay, wait a minute. Would I, do I really agree with what I've asserted here? And I, and I sat there and I was like, well, somebody could say this. And I'm like, well, then I would say that. And I'm like, but then they could say this. And I could say, well, but you were not remembering that. And then I'm like, well, what about this example? But then there's this other counterexample. And I later realized that I sat there for 20 minutes just going back and forth in my head, argument, counterargument, argument, counterargument to realize, no, I, I agree with what I said. I don't have to edit one word.. But I had to go through that process to be like, do I really believe in this assertion? Can I really back up this assertion? Now, sometimes you put all that work on the page because people are interested. In that case, I'm like, they are not interested in my inner psychic debate, but I needed to have that debate to know that I really do stand by what I say. And I do think that for people who haven't gone through this rigorous training, they can sometimes be sloppy. Or kind of casual in assertion. Like, one thing that really bothers me is people say like, well, why is it that now more than ever XYZ? And I'm like, well, that's an assertion of fact. You're saying to me, why is it that now more than ever people are anxious? And I'm like, are people more anxious than they were in the past? Are they more anxious than they were at the beginning of World War II? Are they more anxious than they were at the beginning of the Great Depression? Are they more anxious in the middle of the Civil War? I don't know.

That is a factual assertion.

I don't know that. Now you can say, wow, people are really anxious today.

And I would say, wow, it really does seem like they're anxious, but they're throwing in facts without even realizing that they're throwing in facts. You know what I mean? Because now more than ever is a factual assertion. Yes. And I'm like, well, where's the footnote on that?

Because I don't know that that's true.

Yeah.

Well, what, for the listeners right now, what you're hearing are two attorneys nerding out over attorney things. And what it means on a, to me on a very base level is that what law school teaches is that there is rarely one side of an issue. There's always another. When you think something is so easy, you don't ever really consider the other side of it. So you hear things from people. That goes, you know what, I don't understand how you could possibly think, or, you know, how could you even imagine voting for, and there is this only one side of it. Whereas I feel like our, like you said, we learn to think differently, which is exactly right. And it is this mindset of understanding how can I articulate their position better than they can? And when you fully understand the other side, And this goes for any conversation. If I more fully am interested in understanding why, why are they saying the rude thing? Why are they raising their voice? Why are they X, Y, and Z? When I try and look on the other side of it, it better informs the full picture, which is what we want. Because we know that there are certain things in the world that are malleable. There are certain elements that can form a full Full picture.

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All right, so now that we've talked about, you know, what an attorney's mind might think of how we break things down a little bit differently, especially with your resume, I want to have a quick discussion on how, outside of just relationships, forming better relationships, how can communication bring happiness? What are practical strategies we can do to better, you know, bring the effect of happiness? What comes to mind for me is one, using more positive words, because if I feel like I'm saying more positive things than I am 1, creating a more positive relationship and environment for the conversation. 2, I am— put yourself in a more positive environment, such as instead of having a conversation in the office in the cubicle, have the conversation outside, have it on a park bench. You're gonna have bigger perspective of things. I'm curious what comes to mind for you, Gretchen. How can we use communication, little tips and strategies to better increase or boost our happiness, even if it's just 1%?

Well, one thing that I'm trying to work on is not just like not casually cursing. I think there's been a lot of— like, there's been a real increase in just cursing in all kinds of circumstances where it would have been like extremely inappropriate and rare. And I think it just adds an element of ugliness and ratcheting up an argument in a way that is often not helpful. And I think I can't change the way other people communicate, but I can change the way that I can communicate. And so unless I'm like, you know, just like, you know, slammed a door on my big toe or something like that, I really just try— like, not like I cursed like a sailor anyway, but I just, I just want to use more gentle words because I just, like you say, like the words that we use influence our minds. Um, another thing, um, to keep in mind that this is just a really fun one is the fluency heuristic, which is that if you say something in a very memorable way, like it rhymes or something like that, it's stickier in the brain and it's more convincing to people. So that's like, if it bleeds, it leads, like that's the fluency heuristic. And so that's just kind of a funny thing to keep in mind. Like if you're trying to come up with something that's really persuasive to people, which is strangely like if it's just very sticky in the mind, it feels more correct. And it's interesting that you say about putting yourself in a positive environment. One really interesting thing to do this is if you're having a difficult conversation, like, and of course you would want to do this in the right environment, like with like your sweetheart or something. But if you have to have a difficult conversation, well, first of all, have it while walking. That's always really helpful is if you're walking, you're releasing that nervous energy. You're side to side instead of face to face. And a lot of times with people in a difficult conversation, that just makes it easier. There's obviously a beginning, middle, and an end to it, like if you're going on a hike or you're walking around the reservoir or something. And so that kind of gives people this knowledge like, oh my gosh, this isn't going to go on forever if it's a really painful conversation. But another thing that I really like is to hold someone's hand. It's really hard to yell at somebody if you're holding their hand. And so if you have to have a difficult conversation, like look for a way to— now, obviously you're not going to do this with your coworker, but But there are times where you can really, you can just, if you're physically connected with somebody, in fact, somebody who was a couples therapist said that what she does when she has couples who are like just yelling at each other, she makes them lie down on the ground, like with their, they're like running, like with their sides touching, right? So from shoulder to leg, they're touching. And then she's like, you just cannot yell like that. You cannot physically have a shouting match while you're lying on the floor shoulder to shoulder. And I just thought that partly it's just so silly. I mean, one thing I would say about, and this is like, this is advanced, like this is if you are good, but if you are skillful, use humor. Humor is so effective if you, to lighten the mood, to make a point gently, to praise people in a way that doesn't embarrass them, in a way to like, you know, like point out your own flaws. Like one of the things about me is like my sister who calls me a happiness bully because if I think there's a way for you to get happier, I can get quite insistent. But this is actually a really useful thing for me because I say to everybody, I am a happiness bully. And it's like, and I'll say like, I have an idea for you.

And in my happiness bully way, I just cannot resist.

Like, do you want some advice? 'Cause like I'm thinking of something that might work for you. But that, and some people are like, Actually, no, no thanks.

And I'm like, cool, that's fine. But it gives me a way to like point out this aspect of my nature, which is kind of like part of who I am in a way that's lighthearted and in a way that allows people to say like, hey, back off, but in a lighthearted way. So it's like neither one of us has to feel uncomfortable. I get to offer like, I wanna get in there and muck around in your life. And you're saying, you know what, like, no thank you. And that's okay.

But this being able to bring in humor and it's also more memorable.

It's funny because like internally of what we consider to be serious literature, serious movies, it's always things that are very dark and sad. But actually, we're very attracted to what's funny. It energizes us. It brings people together. I mean, you know this as a trial attorney. Anything that people can laugh at, it just changes the mood. And if you're in a tough moment with people, if you can go to humor, to levity, you don't actually have to be funny. Nobody's asking you to be like a standup, but just introducing a moment of levity can do so much to just make it better. Like, this is one thing, because I am kind of like an uptight, this may sound surprising, but like an uptight, rigid person. And my husband and I, we just got a new puppy.

What were we thinking?

We completely forgot how much work it is to have a new puppy. And people were saying to me like, oh, is it bringing you and your husband together? And I'm like, no, actually we're, bickering all the time. And finally my husband was like, you're being so critical of what I'm doing with Taffy. Like, back up. And I, which was true, it was 100% deserved. But now I can just kind of laugh at it and still say like, you know, you're right. You know, I can make fun of myself and still say to him like, okay, but you know, we need to run her around before bedtime. So like, you're not doing that. You're just petting her on your lap. Well, you know, whatever. So he gives us away. So those are some suggestions I would say about the back and forth.

I think those are awesome. I really love the humor. Anytime that you can communicate just a glimmer of humor in conversation, the other person almost picks up subconsciously of like, I kind of like this person. They're realizing it's not as serious as it needs to be. I came across these videos, Gretchen, that I forgot, I'm sure there's some name for them, but there's sayings that you can use at the end of any situation that kind of add some levity to the situation. Like for example, just adding, "And that's jazz," to the end of it. Or, "And I've always said that." Like these little bitty things that you can add no matter how serious it is.

I add, as one does, a lot.

As one does? Yeah, exactly.

You're yelling at your husband about the puppy, as one does.

As one does. Yes. Those kind of things always make me laugh. Mine is, well, maybe so. Then again, maybe not. Like, that's my— that kind of thing. You don't have to be— like I said, you don't have to be a comedian. But to be able to add just a little bit of, you know, wouldn't Wouldn't you like to know? Or I think, you know, like just a little bit that gives a little bit of humor to it is a wonderful way of adding a little bit more happiness to the conversation. And I really like your point about the cursing, which I think is very self-aware of you. I am definitely a fan of less cursing because I compare it to over-seasoning your food. Like, if you always are just full of the season, you really can't taste what you're eating. You don't— you lose track of the message and you really sound more emotional, especially for leaders. Yes. You sound more emotionally unstable, so to speak, versus somebody who's very choosing. I'm not saying don't ever do it, even though you can all have your own beliefs. And again, it's cultural, right? In New York, where you are, It's a little bit more of the vibe. So I understand it's also dependent on context, but I think those are wonderful suggestions. I very much like hold the hand. Now I'm not going to be where it's like, hey, bro, come here, just let me hold your hand, man. Yeah, no, this is very context specific. Yes, I agree.

Or like with a child, like if you put your hand on their back and said, I know it's been tough. But the multiplication tables are really boring, but they have to be done.

Yeah. Yeah, everybody, I think everybody has a default love language, so to speak. But those are all wonderful takeaways that I think can instantly improve happiness to anybody's next conversation that they're going to have. So today I would encourage you, if you can, use some smiles, use some positive language, and find a way to add some humor into the conversation. Try out one of these little isms. I am curious before we end today, Gretchen, what are some of your favorites out of The Secrets of Adulthood? I need y'all, everybody to go get it. It's by Gretchen Rubin, Secrets of Adulthood, a wonderful little book. It's, I promise you, it's gonna, you're gonna get happy reading this thing. I'm very curious why you wanted to write this book and some of your favorites in it.

Well, I wanted to write the book for a couple different reasons. My daughters were going out into the world and I wanted to like write down the secrets of adulthood that I had learned I learned, you know, with time and experience, usually the hard way, to give to them, to try to spare them some of the suffering and experience that I went through. And I realized, like, I wanted to remind them of these secrets of adulthood, but also myself. Like, you know, work, you know, I need to be reminded that something that can be done at any time is often done in no time, as much as they did. And also just creatively, I was really pushing myself to write in this very brief format because creatively and intellectually to really distill a big idea into a line or two is, is very challenging. And like, and I, and I, and I thought that was really interesting. So some of my favorites are working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. That's one that I have to remind myself of all the time. So good. Another is we care for many people we don't particularly care for. I think.

Oh yeah, that's a good one, Gretch. I love that one. That one's a good one.

Okay, keep going. Another one is, um, love is unconditional and love is demanding. Love accepts you just as you are and love expects the best from you. This is like a paradox that took me a long time to understand. Um, uh, another one is, uh, well, so in the back, so Most of the secrets of adulthood are kind of, you know, I would say I'm there. I'm hoping that they're kind of big insights into human nature. So like the bird, the bee, and the bat all fly, but they use different wings.

Right.

But then in the back, there are these what I call simple secrets of adulthood. And these are more like hacks.

And I have to say that as I was writing my secrets of adulthood, I just can't resist a hack.

So I just couldn't resist making this kind of other list of more practical secrets of adulthood.

And when I submitted the manuscript, I really thought that my editor would say, "Gretchen, no, we're gonna cut these out. They don't belong." But she's like, "Oh, I think they're fun.

Like, they're interesting too.

They're valuable too.

Let's put them in." So they're in there too.

And that's things like, if you don't know what to do with yourself, go outside or go to sleep.

That's one of my ones I have underlined twice.

Oh, okay, good.

If you feel like you're in a place, you're like, "I don't know what to do with myself." Just go see some grass. Right, yeah. Or go to bed or— Go out and touch a tree. Yeah. Yeah, go to sleep or go touch a tree. Yeah, you need to go pick up a stick. Yeah, find something else that's gonna nature it. I, I love everything about this book. I would encourage everybody who's listening, go get The Secrets of Adulthood: Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives. So if you're feeling of anybody who's graduating, I know you wrote it for your daughters, which I love. I also like it as a big fan of isms myself, and I, I think it's fantastic. All right, I wanna make sure we leave with 3 takeaways as we do. What we talked about today is how do you create a happier life based on your communication and your conversations? What I left and took away from is, one, you can talk about happier things. Understand what's gonna build your happiness is talking about the relationships that are important to you because we all desire that human connection. Two, if you can touch a friend, get outside, change your environment. Go for a walk. I really like that suggestion. Go for a walk when you're having a difficult conversation. Change your environment, which is going to change the way each of you is going to interpret it. And 3, I'm going to throw this out there. Gretchen, you can tell me if you agree. Use metaphors anytime that you have a hard time expressing something. You know, whatever it is, find a way to use a metaphor to express how you're feeling. It's going to make it go a little bit easier. And that's certainly, I feel like, how our brains have certainly been wired to look on the other side of the issue before you start thinking that you're the only one who has a point. What do you think about those, Gretchen?

I think those are great.

That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for all of your time that you spent here with us. Where can my listeners find more of you? I know you have The Happiness Project as well as your podcast.

Yeah, so the podcast is called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, but you can find out everything about me on my website, gretchenrubin.com, like about my books. I've got a bunch of quizzes. If you love a self-knowledge quiz, I've got like some really great quizzes. I have a 5 Things Making Me Happy newsletter. I have a Substack called Secrets of Adulthood, which is teaching stories. If you love a teaching story, lawyers love teaching stories in my experience.

That's true.

And I'm on social media all over the place as Gretchen Rubin. And I love to connect with listeners and readers. The world is my research assistant and I love to have, questions and insights and observations and examples from people. So hit me up in all the places.

Tell me, what quizzes do you have? I'm curious.

So I have a quiz of the Four Tendencies. So I have a personality framework that divides people into Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, Rebels. That's my most popular quiz. Like 3.5 million people have taken that quiz.

That's—

oh wow. That's a very useful quiz. Like it will tell you, like it will reveal so much to you about yourself and also about everybody else in your life and help you figure out how to change your habits. Then I have a What's Your Neglected Sense quiz. This is a super fun quiz about the senses. I have a Habits for Happiness quiz. If you're saying, I wanna make myself happier, but where should I start? This is a quiz that kind of in an uncanny way can tell you, not just anybody, but you specifically, what kind of habit is gonna move the needle most for you right now. This is a quiz that you might get a different answer in a month because your life may have changed. This is gonna tell you what to do right now. And then I have a very silly quiz, but super fun, super popular, which is, it's a gift appreciation. 'Cause I noticed that there's different styles of gift receivers. You mentioned the love languages before, but it's like if you're trying to buy a gift for your, you know, for your father for his birthday, it's like, what kind of gift should I get? This tells you what kind of gift. It's just, it's just a fun, it was just something weird. It's a weird thing about human nature that I noticed and I just couldn't resist turning it into a quiz. Anyway, they're all super fun in their own way.

No, I love it. All right, so I, as soon as we get done with this conversation, I'm gonna go take one of these quizzes cuz I think those are so awesome. And I encourage everybody to get it. Go follow Gretchen Rubin wherever she is. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time. I truly appreciate it.

Thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation.