How I Handle Arguments In My Family | Jefferson Fisher
In this interview, Jefferson Fisher shares his practical approach to family arguments, conversational values, and personal habits that support confident, assertive communication. He explains his "house rules" that let his children argue while prohibiting personal attacks, using debriefs to teach persuasive techniques. Fisher extends this framework to broader conversations, emphasizing conversational values—like kindness and biblical principles—that act as decision‑making guides similar to company values. He reframes confidence as the result of taking assertive action, not a prerequisite, and outlines three concrete ways to adopt an assertive voice: replace excessive apologies with gratitude, eliminate self‑deprecating filler phrases, and cut unnecessary adverbs. He also discusses the problem of "word salad" and the importance of clear language. When asked about balancing professional and personal life, Fisher describes a seesaw metaphor of balancing yeses and nos, and he identifies signs of success as feeling naturally enthusiastic and smiling without dread. Finally, he shares daily rituals that sustain his performance—prayer, regular workouts using a Tonal home‑gym system, and focused breathing—to manage stress and maintain confidence.
Chapters
I want to know how you handle arguments in your own house. And I bet our community does too. And then the second question is, you talk about this idea of having goals and values, like going into conversations. So tell us about that, because, you know, we love a goal and we love a conversation. So let's put them together. But first, tell us how you handle it at your house.
Of course. Well, there's exceptions for everything, but we have what we call house rules. And that is, if my sibling— like, my kids are arguing now, they're 5 and 7, all right? But if they're arguing, number one, I let them argue. Like, I don't try to stop it. I try to let them argue because I truly think it's a wonderful training ground for them to be able to express themselves and to try it. So, I mean, they're stretching the limits of what they can say and what they can't say. Now, it's good, these rules I mean, you cannot say anything about their intelligence or say anything like a personal attack. You can't say someone's stupid. You can't say someone's anything that is harmful in that way. You can't put them down. It's more of a prove your point. And so it will also sometimes have these debriefs of, okay, Ruby, you know, my daughter's Ruby, so what are you trying to say? Okay, you'll hear how you just said that to him. Yeah. Okay, well, you hear how— what do you think he's going to think about that? He's not going to like it. Okay. And so like trying to teach how they're going to construct their argument. My son is much better at it than my daughter. One, he's older. Two, he's like a mini me, uh, and she is my mini wife. And so sometimes I have to be like, Jet, I know what you're doing. Like, I, I know, because he can be— he can try it. Like, if he wants to get something, he'll come at it multiple different ways. I'm like, man, you think I don't know what you're doing? But the, um The best thing about it is using that as a place for them to express. Like, if my son wants something, I'll say, tell me why. Tell me why I should say yes. I do that a lot. So he might want me to do something, and typically it's right before bed, of course. And I'll say, well, tell me why I should say yes to this. And I never allow them just to say, well, because I want you to. I'm like, that's not a good reason. I need you to tell me why. Convince me. And it's a great way to get them to think outside the box. And one of my favorites that he landed on was, well, you don't want me to be sad because I'm your son. And if you don't do this, well, I think I'm going to be really sad. And like, when he said that, I was like, okay, that's fair. Every once in a while, they'll say something so good that I'm like, you know what? I gotta respect— game respects game, you know. I, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta allow it to you because that was a really good argument. But yeah, it's teaching them, teaching them of how the right way and the wrong way to try and persuade, to get your point across. How do you communicate? Love that.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah. And you say, okay, how do you add these to the values? How do you show up? I, what I believe in is that you need to have conversational values, meaning principles that you that guide yourself when things go unexpectedly in conversation. And they work the same way as a company value. Company decisions become easier when there's a company value. Values make the decisions for you. One of the principles of my law firm is biblical. It's feed his sheep. That's the commandment. And so I don't care if it doesn't make money. It's this idea of, Does it fit with our value? Is it going to— does it support our mission? If the answer is yes, then that's what we're going to do. Same thing with a conversational value. My mom taught me kindness. And so one of my values is where there is kindness, I will use it. If there is room for kindness, I will use it. I don't have to worry about the snarky thing I'm going to say right back. I'm not going to have to worry about the zinger. The question is, is there room for kindness? If the answer is yes, then I will show it and I will use it. It becomes easier.
You said in the book that this is like the most— I think you said this— this is the most common question you get. How can I be more confident? And I thought you had some surprising and very practical advice for that.
Yeah, I get the question a lot. How do you— how do you— how can I be more confident? And people see it as something you need to have before a conversation. I'm just building up the confidence to say this, or I wish I had the confidence to say X, Y, and Z. They got it wrong. This is the wrong way to look at it. It's the exact opposite. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is the reward. Confidence is the consequence of doing the assertive thing. So what I teach is confidence is as assertive does, which is like, it's kind of that Forrest Gump stupid is stupid does kind of thing. This mentality of when you say the assertive thing, when you can use your assertive voice, the result is confidence because confidence is a feeling. It comes from something. If I were to say, I need you to be mad at me right now, you'd have a hard time getting mad at me. If I kick you in your shin, you have no problem being mad at me. There is this feeling, it comes from something. So confidence is not something you can just summon. I need to be more confident and I got it. And now when I say the thing. It doesn't work like that. It's using your assertive voice to feel more confident.
You talk about over-apologizing in that context. And could you explain or give us some examples of what it would look like to be assertive versus sort of hesitation or over-apologizing?
Really, 3 main things when it comes to sounding and being and using your assertive voice. Number 1 is Removing or cutting down on the excessive apologizing. That's when you say I'm sorry in every single sentence. When you say, let's say you got an email you haven't responded to right away. Hey, I'm so sorry, I'm just now getting back to you. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I'm just now seeing this. Um, you cut in line by accident. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like these, you're 2 minutes late to a meeting. Oh my, I am so sorry I'm late. These, every time you have these unnecessary apologies, meaning apologizing for something that is not an error, it is not a mistake, it is not something like you have— you truly made a big problem. What it's doing is slowly cutting down on your, your self-esteem and your self-worth. Instead, just flip it to words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for giving me the time to respond to this. I'm grateful for the time to think on this. Thank you for X, Y, and Z. Let's put it in an email. Let's say you haven't responded to somebody's email in 3 days. Instead of the "Sorry, I'm just now getting back to this. I've just been so swamped and so busy, and I just have so many other priorities aside from you." Like that right there, okay? Instead of that, all you need to do is say, "Thank you for the time to think on this." I mean, and they're going to say, "Oh yeah, you're welcome." They're going to say, "Thank you for your patience." They're going to think, "You're so right. I am patient. Yes, I am. Oh, you're so welcome." Instead, just use words of gratitude. Just words of gratitude instead of over-apologizing. Two would be cutting down on your words. Meaning I'd say something like, "I hate to bother you, but," or, "This might be a dumb question, but," you know, every time you do that, you're just conveying the exact opposite of the message. In fact, you're inserting this mini conversation about your self-esteem, like right in between it. If somebody says, "Hey, I hate to bother you," What do they say? They're going to say, "Oh, you're not bothering me." And then you have to be like, "Oh, I'm not bothering you? Are you sure?" Like, "No, no, no, you're not bothering me." "Oh, okay." And all they think of when you're now talking is, "God, this bothers me." Like this, that's all they think about. Same thing with the dumb question. You say, "This is going to be a dumb question. What's the answer?" Everybody says, "There's no such thing as a dumb question." And then they have to go, "Oh, okay. Well, let me ask this question." And then all it sounds like when you're asking is, This is the dumbest question I've ever heard. So it's just, you're cutting down on your own self-esteem. Don't do that. You just remove it. In fact, instead of cutting away from it, just add onto it. You say, I'd like to build on something of this thought, or I'd like to add onto. People love that kind of language because it adds onto your experience, adds onto the conversation. One thing that I've been thinking about, one thing I'd like to add. Any of that kind of stuff is going to build onto the conversation. And lastly, you want to take away or at least minimize the use of adverbs, words that end in -ly, like literally, basically, essentially, or just, or so, or biggery. These are words that just water down your drink. If I said nothing but literally— I have one of my best friends, he begins with, so basically, uh, almost every sentence. And I'll, I'll say, Matt, what's, what's the basic part? And he, and he'll laugh because we've talked about this. I'm trying to keep him accountable for it. But people who say clearly, he clearly didn't, or obviously— if it was clearly or obviously, you wouldn't have to, you wouldn't have to say it. So those are some things that could help your assertive voice.
I love that so much because it's so practical, you know. I mean, we can all find ourselves in those recommendations.
Literally.
We can literally, very much so, identify with that. But I love that it's just, it's actionable. We can just go do it. And it's not some kind of philosophical statement. So I think that that's helpful. Yeah.
There's a difference between like somebody saying an easy sentence like, I want to increase the budget, period. Or somebody's saying, this is what we typically hear. So basically what I'm thinking is, and you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but so like, and maybe we, you're going, what are we doing here? What are we saying? So it's much harder to filter it out, sift it out to get the actual message.
We call that in our house word salad.
Oh.
You know, it just feels like, chop salad. Like, what are these words? There's a lot of words here, but I don't really know what they mean, and they just all sort of feel mixed up. Yeah, I love this point about confidence being the reward. I will often say to clients, confidence is not a prerequisite for taking the action that you need to take. And the idea of taking assertive action that you're talking about, to me, is a relief because it's like, oh, I don't, I don't have to gin up this feeling of confidence that I really have no idea how to access, which feels sort of like it just magically happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, that's not a necessary prerequisite for doing the thing that needs to be done. And on the one hand, that means you sort of have to come to grips with, I have to do this thing scared sometimes. I have to have a conversation that feels scary, but it also means it's in your control instead of sort of like waiting for the fairy dust to be sprinkled on you, at which point you are now qualified to go forth and have this conversation that you don't want to have. I love that because I wish someone would have told me when I was a kid, you know, because I think I always thought when we see people taking assertive action, they look confident. And so we assume that they are confident. You know, I had a— I don't know if I told you this when we were in Charleston. I don't think I did. But I used to have a debilitating fear of public speaking. And part of the reason that I had that fear is I wrongly assumed that all the people that I saw up on stage just loved it and were naturally great at it. Like they just rolled out of bed one day when they were 10 years old and they were just like made to keynote. And they never felt nervous about it. Little did I know, everybody feels nervous. It's part of what makes you good at it. Once you get up there, it's fine. You know, like all these things I had to test it. I tested it in front of 800 people, by the way, for the first time. So, you know, go big or go home. But it was great.
She did great.
It was great exposure therapy to realize, oh, I get the reward of feeling confident after I did the brave assertive action. It was not necessary before. Not only was it not going to happen, But it just wasn't necessary. And I think that's such great news for people.
Yeah, it's this idea of most people are confident because they've been there before. They've done it before. Right. You're not catching them the first time they've ever done it.
Well, listen, before we wrap up with our 3 questions, with these fast action 3 questions, but before we do that, the book is called The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. You guys definitely need to buy a copy of this. I bought copies for all my clients. And it was fun to get their response. In fact, you commented, Jefferson, when you saw— I did.
Yeah, thank you very much.
Yeah, happy to do it. But I just know it's going to be so helpful to them. But why did you call it The Next Conversation?
People often say the wrong thing in the first conversation. We tend as humans to get it wrong. We tend to muck it up. And it's the next conversation that truly has the power to change Everything. If you and that other person, everything always goes wrong, you have— you say the wrong thing, you can change everything by simply what you decide to say next. And the same thing applies with wherever you want to be in your life. The truth of it is, Michael, people watch my videos not to change what's happened in the past. They watch the videos to change what they say next. And it's not the conversation in the past they're trying to fix, it's the next one. And that's why I named it The Next Conversation, that they can use these tools, these tips for handling the next conversation, which is going to make their life a lot better and in exchange improve their relationships.
For you, what's your biggest obstacle, especially in this time of busyness, to getting the double win?
Like a work-life balance type of thing, um, is making sure my yeses and nos are balanced. Like, I see it as like a seesaw. And so that to me is my success with my life, my family, my work, as a dad, as a husband. And I need to make sure my yeses and my nos are balanced. If I have too many yeses, something else is going to suffer. I have too many nos, something else is going to suffer. So it's— that doesn't mean I'm just going to say I'm going to count them. It's not quantitative in some way. It's maybe it's a very big yes, and that means I have to have small nos. And so there's a— that's how I see it in my brain.
Love it. I don't think we've ever had anybody share that. That sounds great.
Yeah, that's great. Okay, next question. How do you know when you are winning at work and succeeding at life?
When you can walk in and you smile naturally. Uh, when you just— you feel like you walk in and you naturally feel enthusiastic. It's not even maybe so much enthusiastic, but there's nothing that you feel like you are dreading. I compare it to running with a parachute on. Okay, you feel like you have the wind in your face and you're really running and going and pursuing, or do you feel like you're dragging?
Okay, final question. What's one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do?
Oh, daily prayer. Aside from that, I, I really try to do my workouts and my breathing. So it's— I, I didn't learn until more recently in life, certainly more recently than I wished, how much our body plays a fact in our stress and our anxiety and how that impacts our outlook on things. And so if I can get my body moving, drinking more water and really focus on my breathing. 'Cause I didn't notice later that I'll hold my breath when I'm stressed. And that definitely weighs. I mean, it's like you're truly suffocating. So realizing that I need to work on my breath, it's a great ritual.
What is your go-to workout?
Oh, so I use this thing called a Tonal. It's like, it's, oh my gosh.
The thing that hangs on the wall and has all the little stuff on it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a, I mean, Remember, small town, we have one gym and the weights in that gym are so rusted and it's— everybody's there, it's fine. It just, it's one of those things where it's like, I need to drive there, make sure I'm back in time for the kids. We have early morning, blah, blah, blah. This Tone was awesome. And I've had more progress on that than anything. And you can just do it right there in your home, so. I'm a big fan. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.
