How My Parents Raised an Expert Communicator

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to please follow this podcast. And if you would leave a review, my new book, The Next Conversation, is out to order. You can find the links there in the show notes, as well as my school of communication and membership. Today, I am— I cannot be any more excited to be speaking and bringing to you some people that mean the absolute world to me. Where it all started, and that would be my parents. Hey, Mom.

Hello.

Hey, Mama. Hey, Dad. How are y'all? Doing great. Awesome. I want to, uh, are y'all comfortable? You're all good? So for anybody listening, this is the very first time I've ever had a guest, and so I want to make sure that my first guest that I ever had was going to be y'all and make sure that this was important to me and that y'all knew how much I loved y'all and how thankful I am for everything you've done for me. Uh, this is the very first time I've had guests, so we're We're just gonna make it work. Anybody listening, they know how my style is, and they know that this is just a casual conversation. There's none of this that is pre-done or set up. Y'all really don't have any idea what I was gonna ask you. And Mom, you look beautiful. I know you were worried about what y'all are gonna wear. Y'all did great.

I wore whatever she tells me to wear.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah. So I want to make sure we're all good and comfortable. And so I have some, have some questions. There's some that I pulled from people that follow my content that I put out on social media. And I, I also had some of my own. So I want to— here's my plan for this is for anybody listening, we're going to talk a few things about Jefferson because I know there's some curiosity of how did this guy gets so weird about communication. And on this other end of making sure that we're giving very practical solutions and techniques of how y'all raised me and my siblings. I'm the oldest of 4, for anybody that doesn't know, how y'all kind of laid the strategy for how you wanted to be parents. So I'm going to ask right at the outset is what was the main themes and thoughts and hopes and prayers before you had children, before you had me, to anybody out there that is hoping to have children, they have very new kids, what were some of the things that was very important to, to y'all?

Sure, you go with that one.

Yeah, this is my mama, Sherilyn.

Sherilyn?

Yeah, Sherilyn. I've always called her Mama, so she—

Yeah, he always calls me Mama.

Yeah.

Well, of course, you always want your children To love the Lord and to be respectful and kind. And, but I do remember praying for you that, that God would give you charisma, and I feel like he answered that in spades for you.

Yeah.

And what do you think it is about with charisma? How do you, how do you define that?

Charisma to me is where somebody just you're very likable and they like you. They don't even realize why they like you, but they just know they like you. Yeah, that God would just give you favor wherever you went. And you always had lots of friends and— yeah, and your teachers loved you.

Yeah.

So, uh, you know, I feel like he answered that.

Yeah, I feel like it's a, um— the people that are charismatic tend to be very warm.

Yes.

It's just something about them that you—

Yeah, you're always very caring.

Like to listen to them. Well, I feel like, I mean, you had— when until Sarah, my sister, was born, it was just me and you.

Yes.

Really, for 4 years.

Absolutely.

So how— I mean, that's a very pivotal time.

It is. I spent a lot of time with you one-on-one.

How was that?

You wore me out. You talked.

Yeah.

You talked. 24/7, from the time your eyes opened to the time they closed. You talk to me all day long.

Yes, he was born talking.

Yes. Yes. In fact, I remember when I put you in Mother's Day Out, I had to fill out on their form, when did your child first start talking? And I put as long as I can remember. And because I was serious, I was like, when did he— it's been as long as I can remember. Yes. Yeah, I'm sure by 8 months you were saying one words, you know, and then by a year I had a whole list of 20+ words you were saying. And by 15 months you were saying sentences.

Yeah.

And I remember a mirror. Oh, yes. In the way the living room was set up, there was a mirror behind the couch.

You drove me crazy. Yes.

And why?

Well, behind our couch was an entire mirror on the wall just to, you know, make your living room look larger. But it was your complete mirror. You would get on the back of the couch on your knees, make faces, talk to yourself.

And I never do that. I never talk to myself. I'm so glad I grew out of that.

Well, I mean, you would make faces. And so if I were fussing at you on the couch, Instead of looking at me, you're looking at yourself in the mirror to see how pitiful you look while you're crying or answering me. It was hilarious. And finally, I would say, David, you've got to take this mirror down.

Come home from work. I'd come home from work and she says, David, you got to get this mirror off this wall. It's driving me crazy. When he's crying, he looks in the mirror to see how much he can look pitiful. Yeah, right. You got to get this.

Got to get rid of it.

You were very drama.

Very drama.

Yeah, you were.

Well, it was. I mean, for 4 years it was just me, so I was—

Yeah, no, it was cute. It was cute. But after a while I got irritated because when I wanted you looking at me, you were looking at yourself in the mirror behind me.

Right. I'm with you. Dad, I want to make sure and ask— this is my dad, David— what did, um, for you— I'm going to kind of pose that same question— what were some of your goals before having, um, kids and me coming into the world as a just for any— not just because it was me, but because any child— you're now a father. What were some of the main themes?

I can't think of any goals that I had before, but I do remember specifically praying over you as, as a child, as an infant, before we go to— you go to bed. And we'd always, you know, we'd tell stories. And usually I'd put you in the story where you were the hero. You know, Prince Jefferson was kind of come save Queen Carolyn from the Dragon, you know. So you loved— oh, you just giggle and laugh. You love those kind of stories. But the thing that I really remember, and I believe has been a moving force in your life, is I pray, so dear God, give Jefferson wisdom and always be his friend.

Yeah.

And that's how we ended prayers.

Yeah.

And he's done that.

Yeah.

And I believe that. I think it's so important for parents to bless their children, say good things over them, speak good things over them. Don't— I've seen other parents, you know, where they say, oh, you're a little monster, or you're a little meanie. Or no, no, just speak kindness over them, speak encouraging words, things that build them up of what you want them to be. And, um, and I believe it happens. I really saw that in your life.

Yeah. And when, um, When I was— as long as I can remember, you've prayed that prayer. I mean, as long as I can remember. Um, I truly credited y'all's prayers for how, how I've turned out. I've had a little bit to do with it, but for the most part, I mean, a lot of what y'all put me, uh, in, uh, positioned me. And so this is really for the parents that are, are listening, or people that are wanting to have kids, or maybe you have nieces and nephews. It it matters when you have goals and themes and a focus of where your heart is and how it develops their character.

Yeah, I can remember my mother doing the same thing to me. Oh, David, you're so smart to know how to do that. And it really builds a child up when you do that. And we did the same thing with you. You know, oh, you're so smart and you were so thoughtful. You speak kindness and you speak edifying words over your children. And I believe they become that. Now, if you tell the kid he's a horrible person or you're such a bad kid or you're always doing something wrong, well, that's what they a lot of times become.

Yeah, they kind of absorb what they see. If you're always—

absolutely.

If you're not—

absolutely.

If you're not living up to what they have. Yeah. Now, I am also curious, when I asked this mom, Mama, what do you— how did you see the dynamic between once— so I'm the oldest of four. There's Sarah, Jonathan, Jacob. Once Sarah was born, Jonathan, Jacob, you know, how did you see me being from, you know, a one-child, um, by myself to now kind of taking on this role as brother? And how did you feel like you saw that developed in me and little things maybe you saw in communication. And the reason why is I'm asking is so that anybody listening can spot some things of how they saw the oldest child versus the youngest child and how you saw some of those dynamics changing in our house.

Well, when I was pregnant with Sarah, um, I just didn't want you to feel left out. I remember telling you when I was pregnant, this is going to be your baby sister. She's going to be your baby sister. And you were so excited when she was born and very protective of her and very proud. I don't feel like you were ever jealous of her. And I feel like with each one, you just kind of just enlarge your brother, big brother role. You were always very kind. Very protective of them. And even with Sarah, she was kind of a late talker because you talked for her. Yeah, she would point and you'd go, Mama, she wants this.

Yeah. And then when Jonathan— yeah, same thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan, my younger brother Jonathan, couldn't say his vowels very well. And so, um, consonants. Thank you.

We called him the vowel man.

The first consonant of every word he dropped off.

Yeah, that's it.

He called him our owl man.

Yeah. And that's, that was what he did. So I just kind of became that. I loved, I still love being big brother. There's a theme that I pick up on, and I'm sure anybody who's listening senses this from you, Mama, and is just the kindness. I don't know a single person or human that does not like Mama. And so you've always radiated kindness. And yeah, of course. And I got to see a lot of that growing up because I can remember coming in saying that somebody had done something that made me upset and I'd bring it to you to complain and you'd say, well, were you kind? And I'd say, but, but Mom, you don't understand. They got it and you didn't. You wouldn't have any of it. You just say, well, I think you should be kind. I mean, that was, that was the whole outlook from that. So what, how do you see kindness and what does it mean to you? How do you, how do you like to put it out into the world? What's your secret?

Oh goodness. I don't know if there is a secret, but kindness matters. And I just, you always had such a sweetheart. You had a very sweet heart. I think you were naturally kind, but I wouldn't let y'all be rude and ugly to each other when y'all were fighting. I wouldn't let you name-call or any of that. I would say, no, y'all are going to be sweet to each other.

I had a zero tolerance for unkindness among the siblings. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you had a— I can remember there was— there was— it was very early on. For people listening in the South, it's yes ma'am, no ma'am. That is a sign of respect and manners. And if you said it, you expected that to be it.

Yes. And so really, like a lot of arguing, I just say all I need to hear is yes ma'am.

Yeah, that's, that's all I want to hear.

Just now.

That's very true. I think I just got— I think I just had PTSD for a second here. Hearing all that. Yeah.

There's no sense in arguing about it.

You're talking about kindness and the role that you stepped into is you took ownership.

Yes.

You felt that they were, they really were your brothers and your sisters. You know, they'd call you and you'd, and you would create a persona, Chef Bubba.

Yeah.

And you loved, you loved, you asked really, can we quit having babysitters? Can I babysit? Yeah, you know, you took that ownership and it was probably a lot of, of pressure. A lot of kids aren't asked to do things like that. You seem to enjoy it and thrive with it, and it really made you mature. Yeah, way, way early. You were kind of an old soul even though you were a kid.

Yeah.

And you were in a way almost like a second father. Because there was a little distance in time, but you, you did it because you enjoyed them.

Yeah.

And you poured yourself into them. Y'all were talking a second ago about how your mother was kind. And so you were very defensive about that. And I remember the story where that boy came up to you in day school and said, you're mean. And you came up and you pushed him down.

You were only 4.

You pushed him down and said, my mama is not mean. Yeah.

And I'm like, Jefferson, whoa, whoa, whoa.

And so you just— yeah, you were defensive for your parents too.

Yeah. Yeah. Very, very defensive. I mean, it's one thing for you to say something about your mama, but somebody else says something about your mama, that's— those are fighting. Those are fighting words. Yeah, every single time. I want to turn gears a little bit to specifically conflict and arguments. I remember in y'all's— in growing up in our house, y'all really did not argue in front of us. I mean, there were just normal spats. But when it came to serious arguing, y'all did it in y'all's room, because I can remember, like, keeping the kids away. I was like, Mom and Dad are talking, y'all go down the hall. That's right. Let's, you know, go entertain them for whatever. And then, or if it was late at night, you know, after the kids go to bed, and I was older, so it wasn't like, um, it wasn't that big of a house. I mean, if y'all were talking seriously, you could hear voices. I didn't know what y'all were saying. Outside of when we were in the car. I mean, of course, if you're late, late for church, everybody's just— yeah, yeah.

Taking off on vacation.

Yeah, yeah, on vacation for sure. Then you have to hear argument. But I'm, I'm curious on y'all's take about— for people who are just rethinking how they saw arguments happen in their life. I'm curious how you saw it with your parents and how that shaped you know, how y'all did it with us, specifically conflict.

I know with my parents, they didn't argue in front of us very often. They did the same thing back in the, in the bedroom rule.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really good policy. And the truth is, because if you get into a heated argument in front of the kids, they almost always blame themselves. What now? What did I do wrong?

Yeah.

What did I do wrong? And what, you know, oh, I should have done something. And they internalize it. And so we really We were friends for long before we got married and we just, um, we both agreed we're not going to have that kind of argument in front of the children. Now it's important for them to know that you disagree sometimes. And we would disagree that a marriage never has arguments because they need, they need to see then after the argument, they need to see mama and daddy holding hands, mom and daddy hugging, mom and daddy kissing to know that you can argue. And still love each other. And that's just, that's just crucial. There's some people who keep the conflict so far away from the kids, the kids don't have any way to process it. And then there's some kids who they are in the middle of just horrible conflict. And that's neither of those extremes are really healthy for kids.

Yeah. I, I totally agree because there's the flip side of you don't want to have zero conflict where you only have conflict in the bedroom.

Something's wrong.

Exactly. And so one thing y'all were so good at that I know I've applied to my marriage is y'all were very quick to forgive. Y'all were very quick to say I'm sorry. And I think that plays a big role in how long the argument lasts. Because if you just— for people who withhold that apology, like they use it almost as a punishment, in a way when they're withholding that. But I absolutely agree that on the flip side, having knockdown, drag-out arguments is not healthy. At the same time, you want to see— you want the kids to see you come to resolution. But I've had that too, where it is my son thinks that he did something wrong when we're arguing, or he'll say, I'm— or he'll mistake just banter and playful banter as argument, as conflict. And we kind of have to say, no, no, no, we're not, we're not arguing. Yeah. And so, and I think some kids are very perceptive of that, more sensitive to that. Like my daughter could really care less what we're— but son is especially in tune with what we're talking about. I mean, and you remember, um, I won't, I'm not gonna say his name, but I was, I grew up, uh, with a friend who lived not too far down the street. And his parents argued in front of us, like really did. And I remember looking like, is everything okay? And he just acted like nothing happened. I mean, just kept eating his cereal. I mean, never, never looked up, never yet. And I think so many people are now realizing in their own life how they handle conflict, you know, having, having that struggle to apologize, having those hard times, they don't, they're now seeing that reflected of how they, they grew up.

Yeah.

I'm so, I'm curious, Mom, how, what did you, how did you grow up with conflict?

No, my parents, uh, argued in front of us and I didn't feel like that was a good thing.

So you, you saw the, uh, the negative.

Yeah. It would escalate and, um, you know, I saw the yelling knockdown dragouts. And it was not good. So I determined in my heart that I was never going to do that to my children. And so I wasn't a yeller. I really wasn't.

That's true. I can attest to that.

I really wasn't a yeller.

Very rarely.

Very rarely. But my level, because I maintained a really calm voice most of the time, like if I raised my voice because I was aggravated, let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, I raised it to a 4. Y'all would say, Mama, you don't need to yell. And I would be very offended because in my mind that was only a 4.

Yeah.

Because I was like, no, no, no, you don't, you don't understand. I used to hear 15 at my house.

Right.

Yeah.

So a little bit different.

Yeah. I would be highly offended because I was like, this is not yelling. This is just raising my voice.

Yeah.

Because I'm aggravated. Yeah.

You said one other thing a little bit earlier. I think it's really important is the willingness and the not only the willingness, but to do it, to say, I'm sorry. Yeah, I was wrong in front of your kids.

Yes.

Now, whether it's because I say that to my wife, I was wrong, I'm sorry. And but to say it to your kids.

Yeah.

Yes.

Because sometimes we can misjudge what they did or why they did it. Or, you know, maybe one, they're picking on each other and one started it and you jump to a conclusion too quickly. And it's important to be able to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong.

Right.

I was wrong. Will you forgive me?

Yeah.

And I think that's really important for dads, especially because I know people who say, my dad never said he was sorry.

Yeah.

And I just can't imagine that. I mean, yeah, you know, we mess up regularly and just need to tell people, I'm sorry, I was, I'm sorry, I was wrong.

I think that's, that's a crucial point. It's not just to apologize, not just so your kid hears you apologize to your spouse. To them, but also that they hear, I am sorry.

Sure. Because you're not perfect either.

Exactly.

And that's not a sign of weakness. Yeah, it's a sign of strength in my, in my mind. That's a strength to say I'm, I'm secure enough about myself to admit that I was wrong.

Yeah.

I can— what can we do to fix it?

Yeah. Confidence is, is not all about only saying it when you're right. It's It's admitting when you're wrong. That's where the conflict is.

Insecure people can't say, I'm sorry, and I was wrong.

Yeah, that's very true. When you see now kind of where this whole thing has taken in my life, just the whole social media thing, I'm curious, this is aside from communication advice for a second. Because I get this question of, you know, what do your parents think? Usually what Sierra thinks, what's the family think? What do you all think about all of this stuff? When I first told y'all, like, hey, I'm having some people follow me on social, on social media, and then you continue to see it grow. So, Mom, I'm curious how you've seen it from your end.

I think it's crazy how it's It's, um, yeah, your followers have just increased exponentially.

Right.

But you being a good communicator does not surprise me.

Right.

I guess just the social media aspect. Um, I think your generation is more in tune with that and, um, the Instagram and all the other social formats. But, um, no, as far as you communicating well, That did not surprise me. You have communicated well ever since you were 2 and 3 and 4. You've been an excellent communicator.

Yeah.

In fact, I remember, and I guess because I talked to you all day long and like you said, it was the two of us.

Yeah.

You know, at home, I remember at church one day a friend of mine coming in saying, hey, Sherilyn, I just asked Jefferson if he'd seen his mama. And he said, uh-huh, she's in the auditorium. She goes, what 3-year-old says auditorium?

Yeah.

I said, I don't know. I guess that's the way we talk to him at home. But you were an excellent communicator.

Yeah. He always would say, talk, talk, talk.

Yeah.

That I talked a lot and that was the thing. And I was quick-witted. I think that was the, that was the very pull from there. And I don't know who I got that from. Probably a combination of you both, because I grew up seeing Dad very diplomatic. Dad's the peacemaker. Everywhere he goes, he's definitely the peacemaker. Where we have other cousins and other family, they're not that way. They're much more bull in a china closet. I mean, they, they'll rip you one side and down the other. But Dad's always been the diplomatic. And then you, I feel like, have always had a sense of just warmth. You're very loving personality. Like you're not You're not rough at all. So you're very easy to talk to. And I think the combination of that led to a lot of my philosophies and how I began to communicate early on. Dad, what do you think about this social media stuff?

I think it's amazing. I think it's just wonderful. It's just a different generation of communicating. So I think God just put you in that niche just the right time, and it took off much farther than you ever anticipated, right?

Yeah. Or it could see—

and I know that created a lot of anxiety. Yeah, I've seen a lot of that calm down. I think it's been a wonderful platform for you. I can't tell you how many friends that I've had from high school, college, and law school said, hey, man, was that Jefferson's? You know, that's your son. I said, that's got to be your son. I saw that video. You know, and it, it looked like you or sounded like you're the kind of thing I know you would have said.

Yeah.

And it's been really neat. What's really neat is to see friends of mine on Facebook who will tag you and share one of your posts to one of their kids.

Oh, yeah.

And when it first started to happen, I would kind of send them a private message. I said, you know, that's my son.

Yeah.

Well, I wondered if it was or not.

That's funny.

It's been neat. To have friends who have come across it, you know, people of my, our generation or older generation. Yeah, that's kind of the Facebook crowd. The Facebook crowds. Yeah, that's the '50s through '80s.

Right.

And but in age. But it's been, it's been a neat experience. Yeah, it's been a neat experience. And what's, what's rewarding to me is that we've, we've done some things right.

Yeah.

You know, and, and to see the post and the comments from people because it's given you an opportunity really to minister to a lot of people.

Yeah.

I've had friends tell me, oh, I used Jefferson's thing the other day and, you know, they listen to your one of your posts and they said, oh, tell him that it really helped me. It worked.

Yeah. Well, that's good.

That's good. I'm glad it's helping.

That's good. There is a there's so much of it, of people asking, how'd you get this way? Where you get all this stuff? And my— I always tell them, like, what I share is not something you read anywhere else. It's, it's just part of my experience.

Exactly.

And y'all have seen. And I just wanted to make sure that we shared some things about communication advice, some things about me personally that people have just been curious about. And I'm just, I find that when I say it has to do a lot with my experience, major part of that is y'all, just my, my parents. If I had been born to two different people, it would have been a totally different person.

You know, when you were speaking earlier, it brought to my mind that I, one other thing I did pray for, I prayed, Lord, just help this child have the best of both of us. I did. I pray for you to have the best of both of us.

Yeah.

And so I feel like he gave you that.

I agree. I agree. And it's been such a cool experience. Like, I never thought we'd be doing a podcast and getting to interview my parents. That's cool. And the whole thing has just been wild. Anybody who's followed me and listening knows how left field this has come for me. But that's kind of part of the authenticity of— there's never been a motive. There's never been a, I want to do this with this. So it's just been fun to enjoy it.

It's come a long way from the little I'm a lawyer ad.

Yeah.

Little discussion was that about almost 3 years ago?

Yeah, right about.

And boy, it's completely changed to something really, really productive.

Yeah, it really, it really is. Been fun to be part of. I mean, I can't believe it's happening.

Well, I'm very proud of you. And I just want to say that when people see your 30-second little post that you do, yeah, that is— that's really who you are. That is not an act. That is genuinely who you are.

Yeah.

And we're so proud of you.

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I want to take a second right now and tell you about a sponsor of this podcast, and they're called Cozy Earth. The reason why I said yes to Cozy Earth is because their sheets are on my bed right now. I've used them for months, if not years, and they're the best. My wife loves their pajamas. I love their hoodies and their sweatshirts. So if you want to be home and you're like me, you just want to be cozy and comfortable, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. So one major question that I see a lot of people asking is, how did you teach— I say me, but really all of us, all of my siblings— the balance between being assertive, meaning not being a wallflower and getting stepped over? How do you also balance kindness? You want to not be rude to somebody, but at the same time you want to be very direct. I'm curious if y'all had any mindset or tools for how you thought or how you gave me advice about that. Like, for example, Dad, you would tell me if I came to complain about something, you'd say, don't make that your alamo. That's what you'd say. You say, don't make that your alamo. In other words, don't, don't be that— let that be the hill to die on. Um, and there was this kind of sense of So, you know, I mean, the kind of the, when Jonathan was upset that mom was all in his business and he's in mom's, and you say, so, I mean, there are just things about that. I'm just curious what the balance was like for y'all, what y'all saw.

You wanna go first?

You go ahead.

I don't remember you having a problem with assertiveness. You were always very assertive. You were never timid, and you did it with a cheerful disposition. So you had a very cheerful, assertive disposition as a child, and you were rarely disrespectful. And because we had a zero tolerance for that, you quickly, quickly stopped. And so I don't remember us having to encourage you to be assertive. What I can remember doing is, is sitting down and explaining maybe how do you deal with disappointments or something that didn't go well. Just, yeah, well, you know, don't worry about it.

Right.

And be thankful. That was one thing y'all hated, you know, say, well, give me 10 things that you're thankful for.

Yeah.

And that's a good way to do it with a child. And, you know, and you start, well, I'm thankful for Daddy and Mama. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Sarah and Jonathan. No, no, not family members. What are some things you're thankful for? The downside was, is when I'd get upset, y'all would turn it on me. So, Daddy, here's 10 things you're thankful for.

Yeah, yeah.

Turnabout was fair play. But y'all, y'all really were— y'all were sweet children. And then, yeah, and I give that to your mama because she, she demanded respect. Not only for herself and for the parents, but for y'all to respect each other.

Yeah.

And to defend each other and to be kind to one another. I don't remember y'all ever coming to blows.

You know, that was never in the question.

And, you know, every now and then y'all would yin-yang, and, um, but she really did a good, good job of saying, that's enough.

Yeah. How did you see that, Mom? Maybe not with just assertiveness, but on top of how you— when we say zero tolerance policy, like, what was your mindset of what you— how you would handle me or any of us when we said something that was disrespectful, which I'm sure was very few times, Mama?

Um, I can just— I just remember saying, you're not going to talk to me like that. That's not acceptable to me.

Yeah.

You say, yes ma'am, no ma'am. And sometimes it's not only what you say, but the tone.

Yeah.

You know, and I'd say you better watch your tone.

Yes.

That's true. Would you like to say that again?

Yes.

A little bit more respectfully.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mama would always say, let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something.

I can remember you being just in your little infant stroller. Yeah, you were a very strong-willed child, right? Not in a mean way, but you were very strong-willed. And you'd go over and start, you know, knocking off the magazines. And, and, you know, even from a very young child, would, you know, just not hurting you, but spat your hand or say, no, don't do that.

Yeah.

And then you'd go back and you do it again and would have to discipline you then again. And discipline you again and maybe do it 4 or 5 times in a row. And finally, that 4th or 5th time, you go up to it and look at it and look at us to see whether we're watching. And we just look at you and you'd pull the hand back and you'd scoot off and do something different.

Yeah, his walker.

In your walker. I mean, that's when you were those little bitty walkers. And so I think that we were, we were consistent.

Yes, that's part of it right there.

And that's what's so hard for parents is, is they'll do it a couple times or say, well, I'm going to count to 3. No, no, we don't do that. If I tell you to stop, stop. And if you don't, then there's a little bit of— not, not being abusive in any way, but there's a repercussion. But you were a people pleaser in the sense that you wanted your parents to be happy to you. In fact, that's what you would say when you were a child. If we wouldn't discipline you, you'd say please be happy to me. Yeah, happy to me. And you want to be held, and so you wanted to please us, and so it hurt your heart to know any displeasure, right? And so it's— but it's important for children to know the boundaries, and it's important to be consistent. And it's so hard for a parent to stay consistent. Yeah, they do it a couple times, it's just worn you out. You got— they're looking— kids are looking for boundaries. And they're always going to push them.

Yeah.

And you want them to do that. It means there's something— they've got a strong personality, which is good, which is good. You just got to mold it right in a way that's helpful without breaking their spirit. And you can do it. You're not going to break their spirit by spitting in their hand. You just know.

Yeah. And it was barely just like, no, no.

Oh yeah. No, it was not like a— yeah, it was not like a spanking hard way.

It's amazing. How smart children are. Yeah.

Well, you, I mean, you would always, as I got to see, like we talked about, being kind of a second dad with Sarah, Jonathan, Jacob, and seeing that, I found myself a lot of times in the role as the mediator very early on with that to where a lot of the problems didn't, I kind of took it as like a thing of, I didn't want the problems to hit y'all's plate. And not in a bad way. It became like a thing that I enjoyed. I also know, I mean, just being reflective and open with my personality, and I can see that in my son. I was very perceptive of emotions, like how you were feeling. And so even now, if I watch a movie and there's an awkward moment, I can't take it. If there's a conflict, even in the movie, like, because I can feel it.

Yeah.

And Jed has the same exact thing. And so I'm curious how you saw that transition with how I handled my emotions. And maybe there could be some nuggets in there of how we can teach some other people to recognize that in their kids. And what emotional intelligence means to you?

Well, I feel like you were always confident. You were confident and you were very kind and caring. And so if the siblings were fighting, you did want to mediate. You did want them to, hey, hey, hey, what are y'all doing? You know, even without me telling you to do that, it's like I didn't expect you to be the mom. And I remember one time saying, Jefferson, I'm the mama.

Yeah, that did happen.

You know, because I was like, no, no, no, I'm here. I'm the mama. So a lot of it you took on yourself.

Yes.

To do that. But they adored you.

Yeah.

They all just— and they still do.

Yeah. We have a very close relationship with my siblings still. But yeah, that was definitely— I mean, you were always there.

I was there.

You're always there.

And sometimes you helped more than I wanted you to.

That's no doubt. I'm sure. But yeah, I find that people who are really good at reading others' emotions— I mean, and we could even talk about this in like the legal space too, as we're both attorneys, as the— some of the most excellent communicators are those that can have high emotional intelligence and can read emotions in others' faces.

Just have that intuition.

And they can know how to say things a certain way to produce a certain outcome based on what they know about those people's emotions. And so I've seen that even with our son. And when he wants to, let's say, play a video game, which we do not allow until maybe a Saturday afternoon for like an hour. And the way he asks the— it's so funny, like every time he asks the question changes every week. Because he's like trying a different way to get in there. And now he's using his sister, of using her as what she would want and like seeing if I would give more preference to her versus—

He's testing.

Exactly.

I remember taking him to Dairy Queen and he wanted to throw away a paper napkin.

That's my son. Yes.

Yes.

Yeah. And he wanted to throw it away. I said, no, not now. We're still eating ice cream. Because it would make me very happy if I could go throw throw away this piece of paper. First he said, first my mama lets me, or my daddy lets me throw it away. I said, well, your mom and daddy aren't here. You're not going to do that. He says, well, next he then went to, it would make me very happy, very happy, Papa, to do that. I said, well, I'm sorry, but we're not going to do that. He stopped and ate some more ice cream. And then he said, it makes me very sad. Yeah.

He said he was, he was, he was trying to find He'll come at a different angle.

Trying to find that hole in the fence. You did that too, though. You did that too.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, you did that too.

Just trying to find a way to— I think that really developed a lot of my— how I come up with little phrases or metaphors or twists for things of how to say— like, I like wordsmithing. And so I think that helped develop that at a very early age of—

You had a knack for memorizing scripts, like in Disney movies and dialogues. Very, very gifted with that. And then knew how to use it.

Yeah.

And it was, was neat. Yeah.

And that's kind of developed what we're, what we're doing now. Well, I want to make sure and leave people with, if there is any thoughts that you have as a parent, not of a parent of Jefferson, just a parent of any child and what you find to be one of the biggest things that they can do to help give them confidence in how they communicate, maybe open them up. And we already talked about how it's great to apologize to them and let them see that. I think it's great that you encouraged me to not see problems as big as they needed to be. You'd say, is that going to be your alma mater? Is that really going to be that important? And when you asked me that question, it was like, you know what, it's really not that important. But that became— I mean, I still remember it. So it became so ingrained in me of seeing what was important. So what, what are some lasting thoughts that you might have for parents that are wanting to make sure that they put their kids on the right path?

Don't allow your children to name-call each other. I think that's detrimental to them in a way. I mean, that's— I think it hurts them. I think if they just verbally let them abuse each other, don't let your children do that to each other.

Yeah. Start even if they're brother and sister.

Don't let them say no, we're not going to be name-calling. No, we're not doing that.

Yeah. I think it teaches them at an early age to use that as a weapon.

Yes.

And without understanding that—

be very hurtful, you know?

Sure.

So, and if they remember it, you know, from years down the road, you just— no, to me, just don't let them do that to each other.

And to see value in other people.

Yes.

Even if they— if they do something wrong, see value in them. There's something good about that person. And, and if you have— if they're having trouble with other kids at school, instead of Even if it's a bully or somebody, tell me something good about them. And you try to speak to and encourage that positive aspect of that other person instead of just focusing on their negative qualities. Yeah, but as far as building influence in a child, I think the most important thing is just to hold them, just to touch them by the face and say, I want you to know I love you, and there's not a thing you could do in this world that would keep me from loving you. And, um, that's important. They— you've got— the world is ugly and nasty and mean. And I think we saw our role as parents is to give you the biggest shield, the biggest suit of armor that you could possibly have so that you could walk out there knowing I'm, I'm loved, I'm protected, and I'll always have a place and I always have people I can go to, to who will love me and build me up no matter who's shooting at me, no matter what people are saying. I am loved. And when a child has that foundation, it just builds them up because they're going to get attacked. Out in the world. Sure. Even as a child or as they grow into maturity. And if they don't have that foundation of knowing that they are loved by a parent like that, it's so much more difficult for them.

Yeah.

And so a lot of times those are the ones who go looking for things, just trying to find love.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's where you see so much dysfunction.

I can second that because I can remember Both of you, especially you, Dad, you would always, probably every day, I'm proud of you. I mean, you would make it mission critical to say you were proud of me. Now, I know being a kid, I'm looking all over the room, I'm being goofy. I mean, I try to talk to my kids and to get their attention, to look me in the eye and just say something that you feel is significant, very difficult because they're just they're everywhere and I might say something sweet and they go, you know, why does a pelican have a big beak? You know, it's just, did you even say it? And so, but I'm here to tell you that I did hear it and I remember it and that, you know, and I'll still do that. Yeah.

Oh, you send text messages to all of my children?

Yeah.

On occasion. Not every day, but, you know, every now and then. I love you. I'm proud of you, son. I'm proud of you, you know, to the daughter, you know, sweetie.

Yeah.

And I think that's so important. But my father did that to me. That's one thing that my father did. He regularly said, I love you. I'm proud of you. And that is so validating for children.

Yeah. And I think even for parents who did not have that role model, you know, um, growing up. I think there's a message here too of that they can change that.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. I mean, that's just because they had a, a rough upbringing does not mean that's the same upbringing that their kid is going to have.

Exactly.

And even if they didn't have that model for them and they didn't feel that, it's— they, they can they can set it right. I think it really just changes on the next generation.

Right.

And I'm sure we made mistakes. I know. I know we made mistakes. And so, and so you do your best to try to do better than we did.

Yeah.

And that's true.

You always want your children to do better than you did.

Yeah.

And to learn and to grow for sure.

And I think, I mean, now, I mean, there's so many podcasts on parenting and accounts, wonderful accounts and experts on parenting and things you should say, not say, what you do. I mean, and y'all just didn't have that. I mean, you just didn't have— that's what I mean. I mean, you just didn't, you didn't have nearly the— I mean, you can go to AI now and have like a whole plan, but I mean, you just didn't have that. So every generation is kind of trying to see what's going to be the best.

Y'all didn't know that you were loved.

And yeah.

I was very affectionate with y'all. I hugged.

Yes.

Oh yeah.

I hugged on y'all all the time. But to me, if the child feels love, then to me it's a safe space for them to be able to communicate anything to you.

Right.

They should feel safe to speak their mind as long as it's respectful, then they should be able to say anything to you.

Yes. No, that was One thing that I always felt very vulnerable, or I could be very vulnerable with y'all, I could say just about anything. And I talk about being a safe space in communication for your kids. And that is saying, thank you for coming to me with this.

Yeah.

Instead of just getting so upset to where they don't want to come back and say things. I can't imagine ever in a world where I am not my child's go-to. For when things go wrong. Yeah, you don't— you want to be that. You don't want to be where they're trying to hide it from dad or mom and not do that. So it makes a big difference.

And have fun. Yeah, enjoy it. And one of my— I'll just keep getting this mental image of your mom and I were in our bedroom. You were very small. And all of a sudden we looked over and saw these little fingers underneath the door. So it was you outside. And so I said, who's there?

Yeah.

And you got, it's Jefferson. I said, Jefferson who? Jefferson Fisher. I said, what do you do, Jefferson Fisher?

There was a pause, pause, like 10 seconds pause. I play, probably like 2 and a half.

I really enjoyed it. Started laughing. It started laughing and thought, you know what, What a special time that was. You know, you just wanted to play, right? And, and you wanted your parents to know where you were and checking on us with your fingers. And yeah, it was a joy. You were a joyful child and you're joyful.

Yes.

37-year-old guy.

Yeah, I still do, for sure. I, I could not be any more grateful that I want it on the record that I could not be any more grateful that y'all are my parents and that y'all have influenced my life forever and beyond. And I couldn't imagine ever having any other parents. So I want to let you both know I love you very, very much. And thank you for praying over me. Thank you for praying over me and, and just being who you are and a joy to anybody who gets to know you. So I love y'all.

Love you too.