How to Break Up with Someone You Still Care About! | Jefferson Fisher

How do you end a relationship? Whether it's for work, whether it's romantic, how do you cut ties with someone? Well, at the end of today's podcast, you're going to walk away with exactly how to do it.

You ready?

How do you end a relationship? This is how it typically goes. This is how it typically goes. You come down, you meet with me, we sit down over coffee, you come into my office. So let's just put it, let's roleplay this right now, wherever you're listening. Maybe you're walking, you're sitting down. Let's imagine it. You and I come into a space and I am the one that has to deliver bad news. I'm the one that has to end it. You sit down and I say, so how are you? You good? Yeah. How was your, how's your family and everybody? They all right? Oh, oh, that's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy, right? Uh, in this, this weather, this weather is just doing wild things. I know they said it was going to be hot, but if it wasn't, man, yeah, and rain, it's crazy. So, uh, so listen, I, um, I think you're just— you've been such a good, you know, person, and you're so great, and I've really enjoyed getting to know you, and it's Stop.

Timeout.

Cut.

Is this not just painful?

I mean, I'm the one roleplaying this and it is painful for me. It's awkward.

It hurts.

Oh, anytime you need to deliver bad news, the person who has to deliver it is one of the worst feelings because you know that it's coming. It's a cliffhanger. I bet you, you know people, and maybe you're one of them, that will delay doing it as much as possible. You, you will be in a relationship for 6 months longer than you need to. You'll let that person work with you for 6 months longer than you need to because you're not sure how you need to end it. You talk to somebody like, are you breaking up with that person? Like, ah, yeah, I need to. I just, I don't really know how. And it, it is such a disservice to you.

Please stop.

I'm going to teach you how to do this instead of this horrible this mush, this quicksand of, I don't know how I'm gonna feel. You have a pit in your stomach when you're brushing your teeth, you're on the commute. Whenever you know you're going to meet with that person, your heart's just beating in your chest. Stop, stop. We're going to clear that up. Number 1, first problem is the small talk. Number 1, do not begin with small talk. When somebody's coming to sit down with you and you're like, hey, so how are you? Oh, you're good? Yeah. How's your your pickleball. Did you see that bird the other day? Yeah, man, that's— we always like to say it's crazy. Oh, that's crazy. There's nothing crazy. There's nothing crazy about it. Stop doing that. The small talk is one of the worst pain points because you as a listener, if you've ever been on the other side of this, you know exactly how it feels. You're like, what's wrong?

Something's off.

I can tell. We have this sixth sense about us where we go, nope, something's not right.

I can—

this is a setup, this is a trap, what's going on. And you're just kind of waiting for the hammer to drop. And what happens is there's small talk, small talk, small talk, and they give you the phrase. You ready? The phrase is, so listen. Boom. And it just tanks from there. They know the bottom has just dropped out. They know that it's, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. It's not genuine, it's not kind, and it's not honest. Stop doing it. Instead, in this small talk, what I want you to do is to label the conversation. Label the conversation. You're going to just— you got to turn on the cold water, y'all. You got to turn on the cold water sometimes. The, the— sometimes the, the most kind thing you can do is be the most direct that you can be. Meaning when you delay the hard conversation, you are only making it worse for both of you because you are, you are not operating in a state of authenticity. The quicker you can get to that main point— I just hit my knuckles so hard. Whenever you connect together in a way that does not break your knuckles, whenever you get really— you bring that time closest to— let me rip off the Band-Aid instead of ripping off slowly. You're familiar with that. The better things are going to be. And it's true, it's true, because while they're waiting for the hammer to drop, You're the one that, let's be honest, the reason you do all that small talk is not for them. It's for you to make yourself feel better, to make you feel a little bit more calm and comfortable. You're doing it for you when in actuality it does nothing for them. It only spikes their anxiety. It makes them understand that what all came before it is just not genuine. It's not true. It was just fluff because now you're about to deliver the news you really wanted to do. Instead of all the small talk, you're going to label the conversation. What does that sound like, Jefferson? It sounds like this is going to be a difficult conversation. This isn't going to be fun to talk about. It sounds as easy as this is going to be a difficult conversation, or this is going to be hard. This isn't going to be fun to discuss. I'm not looking forward to this conversation. This might come as a surprise to you. This might come as a shock to you. For me, in my world, in my team, anybody law firm related, otherwise, when they have to deliver bad news, what I ask is they say, "You're not gonna like this." First thing, the phone call, they say, "You're not gonna like this." And it allows me to go, "Okay, I'm ready." And like mentally, I'm kind of preparing myself to go, "Okay, all right, let's hear it." And then whatever comes after, it is what it is. Instead of leading with the phone call of, "Hey, so, okay, well, we," We got an issue. It's not just ending a termination. It's not just ending a relationship. It's not just terminating a relationship. It's also any bad news at all. But I like— I want to focus specifically on ending a relationship today. You hear how small talk is not kind. Being unclear is not kind, even though it tries to make yourself feel better. Label the conversation. You get to sit with them, let's say, in a romantic setting. You need to break up with somebody, it can be as easy as, "This isn't going to be a fun conversation." Or if it's totally catching them off guard, you can even say, "This is probably going to catch you off guard. This is going to— this might come as a surprise to you." 2, number 2, let's move to number 2. The first thing out of your mouth after that, you're going to give it a 2-second little break to allow them to ready themselves, and they will. First thing out of your mouth is the news.

Is the news.

In a work context, you're saying, "We need to let you go." In a romantic relationship, it's, "We need to break up." Whatever it is, you have to get to the bottom line immediately. Don't start going back to small talk. Don't start going back to mush. You're going to deliver the hard news. This isn't working out for me. That you're not gonna— this, this isn't working out.

That's fine.

Deliver the, the bottom line right out of the gate because it is being direct. Remember, bring in connection. So number 2 is get to the point right away. Number 3 is— so you see how simple that is? I guess it's self-explanatory.

Get to the point.

Number 3 is now you can lead with the gratitude. Now you can bring on the compliments. We always do it backwards. We love to do it backwards. Let's say you and I are in a romantic relationship right now. And I'm saying, the first thing out of my mouth is I sit down with you and I immediately go into what? Past tense. Hey, so you, so you're really, I think you're really great. And I've really enjoyed, you know, just getting to know you these past few months. What's the first thing you're thinking? What's happening? Uh-oh, we're breaking up. This is terrible. What did I do? And all of a sudden I'm going, no, no, no, it's not you. It's me. You're darn right it's you. I mean, it's when I say it's you, I mean it's me. Meaning it's me. I'm the one that is leading this conversation. Yes, I'm the one. It's not about them. It's not about what they've done wrong. It's not you, you, you, you. You've done terrible stuff. If you're gonna do anything, number 3 says, add on gratitude. Now you can add the compliments. Now you can add the positivity, because you want to end on a positive note. This is not where you start laying out all the things they've done wrong. When you say, look, this is going to be a difficult conversation, it's time for us to part ways. You know, you're just— you're not for me. I really don't like— I don't like the sound of your voice. Uh, you always come in late. Uh, you never get your projects on on time. You're not really my cup of tea. When you just go, you, you, you, you, you, you, there is nothing left. This person will end up hating you forever. When this might be your last conversation, in the conversation on a positive note, as positive as you can make it, even if you don't really care for this person, I don't care. End your life in a positive way. It will always last longer than you ended in the negative. If you just want to burn every bridge, kick down the house, whatever it is, always in positive. So this is where you get to say, I have to say, let's put in an example. This is where you might say, I need to have a difficult conversation with you. It's time to let you go. You hear, I just said that. I'm going to add on the, you've been a great, you've been a great person. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. These last 2 months, and I think I'm really looking forward to your career and where you're going to be headed. It's just not going to be here. Really, really enjoy, you know, getting to know you. You see how I am— I am looking forward to whatever the future is for this person. In a romantic setting, it might be, listen, this is going to be hard to talk about, it's not working for me. I've really enjoyed just getting to know you, and I think we've had a lot of laughs and a lot of memories. I know you're going to have an awesome future. This is not going to be— not going to be together. You hear how that's a whole lot more kind than if I were to say, this is going to be hard to talk about, we need to go separate ways. Yeah, you're just not for me. You're pretty terrible. And I just lay out all of my grievances. Don't— that's not the time. That's not the time. So how do we wrap this thing up? How do we end this conversation. Number 1, anytime you have to have a, a conversation where you're breaking things up, ending a relationship, whether it's romantic, work, friendship, skip the small talk. Number 1, skip the small talk. Label the conversation, pour the cold water on it. This is going to be hard to talk about. This isn't going to be fun for either of us. I'm not looking forward to this conversation. Easy as that. You're ripping off the Band-Aid. Number 2, get to the point immediately. We need to sep— we need to go our separate ways, I need to let you go, you're off the team, we need to break up. And 3 is own the I. It's not you, all the things you've done wrong. It's me. I'm talking about me, and I'm going to add on the positive of the things that I enjoyed about us that is going to be where it is, but it is not going to be continuing on in the future. Far better than the small talk of, oh, you good? Uh, so listen, uh, don't do that. It's not kind. Let's be kind in our conversations, especially when it's time for you to break them off. And that's just normal. That's natural. Now I want to add on this bit about there might be times where you think, oh, I can't, I can't do that. They're gonna hate me. They're gonna hate me. Let's talk about that. They're not. They're not. I mean, they might. They might, depending on it.

What do I know?

But they're— they can't do it forever. And you, you can't control that. That's my point. You can't control somebody's feelings. My dad would tell me anytime I, uh, I can remember not wanting to do something because of being afraid of somebody else's reaction to things. And I would say, well, Dad, they're gonna be mad about it. And he'd go, yeah, I guess they'll be mad. Or I'd say, they're gonna be disappointed. And he'd go, yeah, I guess they'll be disappointed. And it was such a way for me to start thinking of the, yeah, you know what, it's true. I can't do anything with their feelings. Yeah, they're gonna be sad. Yeah, they're gonna be sad. And then life's gonna continue on. Yeah, they're gonna be disappointed. Then life's going to continue on. Can't control anything about their opinions. For you to say, "What if they're not gonna like me?" 'Cause that's why we delay it, right? We're disappointed of, or worried about their reaction. How are they gonna feel about it? But you can't carry that. Don't carry the weight of their own feelings. Don't feel their feelings for them. Don't feel their feelings for them. Best thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. That's how you end a relationship, whether it's romantic, friendship, work-wise. And this is where I have to say, it's time for us to go.

If I had to design in a lab an environment to create somebody like you, I would have said, why don't we raise them in a family of attorneys whose father practices the Socratic method, who is very intentional in communication and tone, and a mother who believes in kindness and generosity? And let's raise them in the South, right? You know, it's like, and then there you are. Yes, just out of a factory. Like, what else could have happened to create such a person? Now, I see you as a person who is not only practicing the Socratic process but as a Stoic. Um, I, I have to ask, because people ask this of me often, is do you practice some form of mindfulness? Do you meditate? Do you do any of the woo or any of those things that help keep you centered?

Yeah, I, I, I'm not as consistent with the meditation, but yeah, like I have a I've certainly meditated, certainly in prayer. Um, I think there is— you always have to have a, a sense of a greater purpose, a greater calling, uh, and, and an understanding. To me, in my opinion, there's very much a spiritual world, um, and that gives me a, a certain mindset and a sense of purpose. So there's certainly that. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm nowhere perfect. I def— I go to therapy. I certainly have my share of, um, arguments. Um, but yeah, I would definitely say that there is a sense of wanting to have mindfulness. It's not a habitual practice, but yeah, it's something definitely I do.

Okay. Um, you mentioned therapy. I've watched a bit of your content, and some of the things that you talk about, intended for adults, uh, through the lens of like, here's what I've learned as a trial attorney that can help you communicate better, sounds a lot like therapy. Now, I've only seen my therapist like a dozen times and was a family therapist, and she taught me how to deal with a challenge I was having with one of my boys. I have two boys. They're not boys anymore. They're adults. But when one of them was— I think he was 4, so he skipped the terrible twos, he jumped into the fearsome 4 or something. And he was, uh, he was, uh, like a handful. He was, he was having like hour-long tantrums, screaming at the top of his lungs, slamming the door. And I'm like, oh my God, what has happened? And it's usually pretty peaceful house. And he and my wife would get into some kind of crazy argument and they would spin each other out of control. No one's willing to back down. And it was just like, it was heartbreaking for me. And I had another little boy who was like 2 years old, like, oh, I don't want you to think this is normal, so I gotta go deal with this. So I go to my boy's room and he just says the rudest things to me. He's like, get out of here, I don't love you.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh shoot. So I went to see my therapist, of course. Her name is Joan. And Joan says, you know what, Here's what you do, Chris. You go back in that room next time and you take control of the frame. I'm like, what do you mean? She said, go in there and say, I came in here to check in on you. I see that you're fine, so I'm leaving. If you want to talk to me, I'll be downstairs. And I was just sitting there thinking, there is no way this is going to work. This is impossible. This kid is out of control. And I literally go in and do that. Knock on the door open. I came in to check in on you. I see that you're okay. Uh, I'll be downstairs if you want to talk. And I leave, and I'm like, he's still yelling, crying, screaming. And then like 5 seconds later, it goes quiet. I'm like, oh my God, what has happened? And then the door slowly creaks open. He walks downstairs as if nothing has happened and just goes about his thing. I did that twice, it's never happened again. Now I share that with you because I've heard you say this in the car talk, things like this. So please share those ideas and let's see if there's a parallel here.

Yeah, that's, that's interesting to me about the, the therapy thing. You know, I— a lot of mine derives from things that I naturally do when I'm questioning witnesses or in court. Because people often don't want to give me information. And so I have to find a way to inviting them into that conversation to where it's, it's to their benefit to be honest with me, and I make it natural and comfortable for them to do so. I definitely raised on you get more with honey than you do with vinegar. And I have gone to therapy when I— it was like, that was probably 2 years ago when I really first started going. Because of— I started having panic attacks, Chris, of like, I realized that there was a lot of people following me, and I'd never thought about this, and I— what am I doing? And so it was just a lot of eyes on me, and for whatever reason, they would happen at night. Well, you know, what kind of parallel— you know, what kind of parallels can we draw from it? That when you put a frame around conversation, you make people feel less anxious. If I come in and I just walk into the room and say, we need to talk, that's not a statement that makes anybody comfortable. If I— if you texted that to your wife right now, you said, we need to talk, or better yet, let's say she texted you that. We need to talk. What are you thinking? You think, absolutely, this is the worst. What did I do? And it will throw you sideways. You can't concentrate, you can't think, you can't do anything until she calms that fear. I mean, she's like, oh, nothing, I just needed, you know, you to pick up some groceries from the store, whatever. Yeah, but, but in that moment, you're like, this is the worst possible thing. Um, we will often make people anxious in conversation, including our kids, when we try to make them guess about where we're going or what we're wanting to talk about. Where we have to make them— what we're doing is we're like triggering their fight or flight. They don't know, do we have to be worried about it, do we not? With people like, say, with, um Even people who are neurodivergent, people are ADHD, they, they have a sense of they need to know right now. Like, there is— I, I will not be able to focus on anything else until we get a hold of, of this issue.

So the more clear you are, the better it would be.

What I teach is sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. So when you're talking to your son, for example, just adding a frame You see how you're not in the conversation with them, you're talking about the conversation with them.

That's very different.

Um, you're not talking to him directly, so to speak. You're talking about what you're going to do and giving the option for him to be in it or not, but you're laying out your choices and why it's happening. So when you start to find ways to remove the anxiety from conversation, things will go better. It's like when you have to deliver bad news to somebody or you need to break up with somebody and they sit down and you go, hey, so we— look, you've been great, you know. Instantly they're like, why are you talking in past tense? What's happening? And they think just the worst is okay. Then they start spinning in their head of, okay, oh my gosh, I thought you were mad at me. Like, oh no, no, I was just you know, no, no, nothing's bad, nothing's wrong. It's because we're always on that— we're always in that defensive mode to protect ourselves. And when you provide conversations as a frame for more invitations and you give them the freedom to opt into it, better things are going to happen rather than just forcing them.

Okay, it sounds like there's a pattern here I'm seeing. We're going to zoom out, we're going to be slightly objective and emotionally detached from the moment, we're going to describe what's going on, and so that we both can decide if this is something we want to do. That's seeming like the frame. So in the example when you just brought up, I thought you're going to show us like how you break up with somebody. How would you set that up? Because we've all been there before where we've said something like, it's not you, you've been great, and yeah, you know, exactly. Okay, how do we do that?

Yeah, you label the conversation rather than putting them in the fear of, wait, what?

What's happening?

Oh, this doesn't sound good. Like, they're all of a sudden, their sirens are going off because you're leaving them to just twist in the wind is what you're doing, which is a very unkind thing to do. Label the conversation. So that sounds like this is going to be hard to talk about. This is going to be a difficult conversation. This isn't going to be fun. This might come as a surprise to you. Anytime you can label that conversation and then give them a pause, wait 1 to 2 seconds, it allows them to kind of ready themselves. Because if, let's say, I need to fire you, right? And you come in, I go, hey Chris, how's it going, man?

You good?

You're good?

Yeah.

Are those new glasses? No, you've— oh, okay.

All right.

I mean, and you can already sniff like what's What's happening? And then I do this, I go, so listen, uh, you already know that's the hammer's dropping right now. I finally, I've said, so listen, we got some— listen, that's it. We know right there, it's like all that stuff you said before didn't matter. So you label the conversation so there's no question over, hey, what we're about to go through is rough. So if I'm going to say this is going to be a rough conversation, you know what you're going to do? You're going to go like this. You're going to— okay, that's what happens every time. Every time they take a breath, they nod and go, all right, like you're kind of readying for it. They're allowing themselves. So if, let's say, I need to fire you, for example, instead of this, oh hey, are you good? Hey, listen, we, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, turnover in just the market, and we just, we need to That's the worst thing to do. Instead, be very honest, direct. This is going to be an uncomfortable conversation. I'll give you a second.

You're going to nod and say, I need to let you go.

Just like that, you're being direct as you can be. Then you can add on the, I've loved having you here, you've been a great team member. And then you add on the compliments. Then you add on the stuff instead of front-loading it and then making it mean nothing. Then you can add on the, you know, I'm looking forward to what you do in your career. It's just not going to be here. I mean, you, if you need me, and now you can provide the support if it's deserved. Now you can be there with them and actually have the conversation. But rather than just slowly tearing off the Band-Aid, you got to rip it.

Okay, let me, let me get this straight. I mean, letting people go is one of the hardest things you're going to do.

It's terrible. It's terrible.

Yeah, yeah, it really is.

But what I do is exactly what I do, like, in my law firm. I, I've probably had to let— yeah, I've probably had to let 7 people go in the last 3 years, uh, all wonderful people, um, but yeah, you, you gotta have it.

Okay, quick label, and then I gotta let you go, and then whatever positive things you want to say, if appropriate, you say.

Exactly, a quick label and then, then letting them know, this is your last day, or Friday is your last day at, you know, here with us. Whatever it is, you have to be able to label it. The biggest thing is, rather than the slow walk, the small talk, which is not kind and disingenuous because you really don't mean it— you're saying it to make you feel better, not to make them feel better. Is to label the conversation. This is going to be— it's as easy as, this is going to be a difficult talk.

This is going to be a difficult conversation.

And they kind of go, okay. And like, now they're ready for it. Now they can embrace it.

I want to ask this. This is pretty nuanced. Instead of saying this is going to be a difficult or rough conversation, could you say This is really tearing me up inside. Pause. And then say, I gotta let you go.

So I would tweak that a little bit because you haven't described what this is.

Um, I—

now we can hit on that same vein and say, this is a discussion that has been tearing me up the last 3 days. 'Or this is a discussion that I'm not looking forward to.' Um, any, any of that, you can definitely personalize it if it's genuine. You know, 'This is, this is a conversation that truly just makes me sick inside.' You're letting them know rather than letting them go and then saying, you know, 'Oh, it tears me up too. I don't like it,' right? That then you've, then you've lost it. It doesn't matter now.

Do I need a second statement before I say I'm gonna let you go, or this is your last day, or can I say this discussion has been tearing me up inside?

You can. You're just prolonging the, the hammer.

Okay.

Um, and so I, I would— you want to get to the hammer as quick as possible. So if you were to say, and this, this isn't going to be fun for either one of us Pause. I need to let you go. Yeah, this is a conversation that it's going to tear me up, but I'm willing to sit with you throughout all of it. I mean, you get what I mean? Like, that's— yeah, as quick as you can get to the hammer, the better, because now you're talking productive, now you're talking resolution, now you're talking— you've already hit the dip. All right, now it's up to you to talk about the positive of what else, because life is going to continue to go on.

Right.

So rather than us having a— like, why would you have a slow, steadily downfall and then just stay down, right? You want to have like a little dip and then let's, let's talk about that, because there's more life, there's more life to live, and you have to remember that.

Okay, so in the graph of my mind, visually speaking, if we're here and we don't know what's about to happen, and if you just slowly just bleed them to death, that downfall takes forever.

They will remember that longer than anything.

And then everything you say afterwards feels— it just is all messed up at this point, right? So it's rather we take them from here, we drop them right down, and then we start to build up.

Exactly.

They're going to leave away, they're going to walk away with that feeling like, yeah, you know what, it was a tough situation. I'm really glad my boss really supports me and just— I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out the next move in my life.

Yeah, and it will— they will— they're not gonna like it then, right? Rarely are they going to like it then, but later they're going to say, at least he was honest with me, at least he was truthful with me, rather than the small talk of how wonderful you are, how great you are. And then you're like, oh, we gotta— I'm, I'm sorry, it hurts me to say this, you know, and I hate it, but I, I gotta let you go. And it's like, then why were you saying how great I was? But, but I thought you said— and so then they start to like second-guess. Oh, so everything you said you didn't mean? Like, when you throw in the word 'but,' it deletes everything you said. And it's for anybody listening— get in the habit of changing your 'buts' to 'and.' You're going to find that you're going to talk so much better, I promise. It's like, it's easy to say, like, I love you, but you can't— like, it's the same, you just deleted it. You did. So Whenever you're delivering that advice, label the conversation.

Okay, I want to say this on behalf of the creative entrepreneurs that are listening. Many of you are still solo practitioners because the idea of firing someone hurts your essence. You can't even do it, so you'll never hire somebody. You might have a few freelancers, but you don't do that. But then it really— it's really hard to grow a business when you don't hire people, and the thing that you're most afraid of is the firing part. So I want you to listen to this part and feel empowered. Like, not that you're looking forward to firing people, but you need to hire people, and every once in a while it doesn't work out. So what we've learned here is that the speed in which you say what the hard stuff is kind of important. You need to get to it, you need to use the right tonality, and you need to label it right at the beginning. And you got to get to it pretty quickly. And just notice how deliberate and intentional the words were. I have to let you go. There's nothing that gives me joy in saying that. And then if you want to, you can do the positive stuff. So the sequence matters so much, the tone matters. And what you're saying— and it's probably the last thing I have time to ask you about— which is being clear and direct is kind. Because like, you're torturing somebody. They have that sixth sense. They know there's no reason why I'm in your office today. You've never called me in here before. You've never said a thousand nice things. I already know what's coming. And it's like the lamb, it's like, it's freaking out. I'm gonna get slaughtered here. But you're just torturing people at this point.

Exactly.

That's not what you want to do. Okay.

No.

You've given us a better way forward.

A lot of these questions, Jefferson, are very selfish because I want to learn how to be a better communicator. But I know that my audience, we're very much the same in all of this. So this next question I think will resonate with my audience as well. And that is that many of us, now I have seen this with women more than men, but there's always an exception, we really want to be nice in conversations. We really don't want to hurt people's feelings. And so we get into these conversations and sometimes we don't get to the point, or sometimes we do not say exactly what we want to say because we're afraid we're going to hurt the other person. What is your advice for that? How do we navigate this so that's not the case for us?

Hmm. We could take this a lot of different ways. Amy, what comes to mind first is when you are afraid to say something because of what it might do. Here's what the default sounds like in a difficult conversation. The default sounds like, hey, Amy, so you've been great. And here, let's put it into context. Let's say I need to let you go.

Okay.

Okay. You've been, you haven't been that great at—

You really went there. I'm fired.

Yeah. Let's just go ahead and get it all out. Okay.

Um, and I say—

So I come into your office and I have a seat. Okay.

Have a seat.

And I say, uh, how, how are you? How's it, how's it going, Amy? Everything, everything good? I'm good.

I'm good.

Yeah. Yeah.

I had a stressful weekend. I did this, I did that.

Right.

Right.

How's your pickleball? This weather's crazy. And then I say this, I go, So listen, um, right there, right there. That's— so listen, uh, that is the sound of going up a little bump and then going immediately down, and the temperature of the room entirely changes. This happens a lot when people are nervous to deliver bad news or say something sensitive or say something that they know they're, they're more afraid of the outcome than they are of what they're about to say next. So they are thinking, this person's going to hate me, I'm uncomfortable. They've been sick about this when they brush your teeth in the morning. It goes south when you start with little small talk, that is, you trying to make the other person feel good instead of getting right out of the gate, because it's kind of disingenuous. And it would be disingenuous to you too, Amy, in this scenario, because you're thinking the whole time, where is this going? Like your, your whole body is looking for the bear in the bush. Like you're going, where are we going? What's your nervous system is, I'm waiting for the hammer to drop. That's why a lot of people are listening for the word but, you know, we're just, I think you're great. I loved, you know, our time together and dating, but, and then there it goes. So anytime it says, so listen, you've ruined it. Instead, what you want to do out of the gate is be very clear of what the conversation is going to be like. So let's say you sit down again and I say, this is not going to be fun for us to talk about, Amy. Pause. And then I deliver. I need to let you go. Or this is going to be a difficult conversation. Or this is going to be hard for us to talk about. Or I don't like telling, saying this. Anything that is very upfront of delivering, categorizing what the conversation is going to be. Now it's very clear to them. All right. Now I'm going to emotionally kind of prepare myself for what's happening next. So for people who are more hesitant about it, it's because you're worried about making them feel good. You're worried about disappointing them. Let me tell you, that is the exact reason why you need to say it. So when you can start with something as simple as, this is going to be a difficult conversation for me. Perfect. Now the other person is tuned in. Now they know it's not all flowers and roses. And then for you to slide it out under their feet.

So no small talk is needed in situations like this. You just get right to the point.

Yes.

Okay.

So it would be one, no small talk. Two, get straight to the point as quick as you can. So it's, I need to let you go. I'm asking for a raise. I need to change what we're doing.

Anything.

I mean, that's the next sentence that you need to have once you kind of prep that and prime that conversation. 3 would be you need to make sure that you keep it as short as possible. Because if you can't say it in 2 minutes, you probably couldn't say it in 20 minutes. When we've been in those kind of conversations where you want it to be very short beginning, and then here you are in minute 20 and you're all, you're just saying the same thing over and over again. Y'all are just saying it in a different way and it's becoming circular and that, that's not serving you in any way. So it's more confident position to be kind of tough about it that, you know, there's going to be a hard, hard cutoff.

And that reminds me of what we started where You could say a lot by saying less. So that plays a part in this conversation. And also I've heard you say this on your videos that people really respect you for that. You know, that you just got down to the point and you made it as short and painless as possible. I think that there is a lot of respect for that. We recently, um, let go of a few people on the team and when they would, when we had to have the conversation, getting right to it, I could tell that they just were like, okay, this is happening. Where what's going on is like such a mean thing to do to someone when you're going to be delivering bad news.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's the best way to do it because it, uh, clarity is, is kind. Being direct is, is kind. You just have to get over that hump of disappointment. But the thing was, they're going to be disappointed anyway.

Like, that's the thing.

You have to disappoint them. You cannot please everybody. It's not their business. It's your business. And you're doing what you need to do.

What you gotta do.

Yeah.

Even if you need to have the start with, this is going to be a business discussion.

I mean, you're making it clear.

This is not us talking personal life. This isn't because I don't like you. This is a business conversation. Anything that you can do just right out of the gate, that's going to put that in a perfect little spot. Also, if for anybody listening, this is Another tool that I love to talk about, and you can apply this really for anything, both at home and work, are frames. And framing a difficult conversation is one of the best ways to make sure it always ends well because it's built into the system. And I'm going to tell you, number one would be you tell them what you want to talk about. Two, which is the most important, you tell them how you want to end the conversation, how you want the conversation to end.

Love that.

Most people go into conversations and they have no clue what they really want out of it. They just, all they know is they want to feel good about it.

And 3, you get their buy-in.

So let's say, for example, you made a comment last week that I need to address. I'm the employer, you're the employee. I can say, making sure I set a time for this conversation. I'm not like knocking on your door. Hey, do you have 5 minutes kind of thing? Set aside time. And it's, Amy, I'd like to talk about some comments you made at last Tuesday's meeting. That's number one. I just told you exactly what I want to talk about. Number two, and I want to walk away from that conversation making sure we're on the same page. Or, and I want to make sure that we're aligned on where we want to go. Or it's as simple as, and I want to make sure that that's not going to happen again. Like you could even make it enforcement. Then you, the third is, does that sound good? Can we do that? Anything that is getting their buy-in, say that, that work.

As soon as they nod their head and say yes, now you got it.

It's like an invisible contract where they feel like, okay, now I'm very clear on what, what you want to talk about, how it's going to end. And I'm at the buy-in and now there's, there's no fear of the unknown. Now you don't have to talk about, you know, Brad in HR or Greg in accounting. Like, you know exactly what you're talking about and you can keep it with the frame. And people like to, people don't like to go back on their word. So when they agree to this conversation, they almost always stick to it at the end. And you know when it's done, when you're both on the same page or they both understand it's not going to happen again. I mean, whenever that goal is reached.

I love that you brought this up because that was one of the points I wanted to talk about. In your book, you do such a great job of talking about have a goal for the conversation, like, and, and make it clear. So that's exactly what you just explained here, but it reminded me of something you and Mel Robbins talked about on her podcast. I loved this and I wanted you to share it with my listeners as well. I, I might get it wrong, so you'll have to correct me, but you go into a conversation and you say something like, I've gotta tell you this because I know you can handle it. And, or something like that. Can you explain why you would do, maybe give us some examples and what that does to the conversation and to the person that you're talking to?

Yeah, you are wanting to equip them with the tools for the conversation. And you do that by just telling them what they have. So let's say you could say this, for example, I'm telling you this because I know you can take it, or I know you value. Let's say I need to— these are also what I call priming a conversation. You may have heard that phrase, and that's me saying, I know you value honesty here, or I know transparency is important to you. And then you go into the conversation. So you're kind of giving them the quality that you want them to have, and they will almost always rise up into this. So if it's like, I'm telling you this, Amy, because I know you like to have an open mind. Now you can't do it if this person is an absolute jerk and it's not really part of their ethos for them to be like that. That's manipulative. That's not true. But if you know that this person really does value patience or being open-minded, or if you suspect that they can, say, Amy, I'm telling you this because I know you can take it. I mean, that's—

I feel like I can take it.

Absolutely. Now you're empowered to go, oh, whatever you have to say, I can take it. Oh, I do have an open mind. You're so right. I am transparent. Yes, I do love transparency. You're giving them the quality that you want them to have in whatever that is. I also like to prime conversations with the room. So if, let's say it's an office or a conference room, before the conversation starts, I might say, let's say you and I were in the same room. I might say, I want to make sure that this is a space where I can be totally honest with you. Now you understand how I didn't say, I want to make sure that I can be truthful with you. It's now talking about the room, or I want to make sure I'm in a room where we can, we can really get it all out right here. And so now it feels like we're under the umbrella of honesty or truthfulness or whatever it is. So you can have that difficult conversation. Without attacking the other person, saying, I want to make sure that you're going to be honest with me.

Today we're talking about how to have a difficult conversation. What is it about difficult conversations that will make them so difficult?

And how can you make them a little easier in your life?

When it's time for that difficult conversation, number 1, don't begin with, how are you? How are things? Difficult conversations are not the time for small talk. The only thing that should come out of your mouth is, thank you for making the time to talk with me. Number 2, follow that up with, I need your help. I need your help knowing how to feel about this. I need your help knowing what to do about this. When you say, I need your help, it takes it from opponents to teammates. And number 3, end with how you feel about the conversation. I feel better having talked with you. I feel more settled after discussing this. And the key is you then end it with, "So how about you?" When you say, "How about you?" You are getting them to connect with you to say, "How do you feel about this conversation? Do you feel better about it or do we need to continue to talk?" Now, when I get questions about how to have a difficult conversation, it typically revolves around having to deliver bad news, meaning there is something negative that you need to say to someone and you know they are not gonna like it. You know, they're going to get upset. It's going to bother them. It's going to ruin the mood. It's going to ruin the atmosphere or possibly ruin the relationship. Or you see it with how to address a sensitive topic. Maybe it's something that's been laid heavy on your heart and you don't know how to start, or something that's been bothering you and you know it's for the best that you talk to this other person about it and you just don't know where to begin. You remove the difficult from difficult conversations when you break it down into bite-sized pieces that are going to connect you to that other person. Now, typically in my life where I see difficult conversations is when I have to deliver bad news to a client. You know, not every case is perfect and not every client is a good client and not every case is a good case. The law applies to the facts. So, Sometimes you have to tell them, I'm sorry, but the law doesn't allow this, or the law is against you on this case. So that just is part of normal life and how you handle that conversation, meaning not just what you say, but more importantly, how you say it can mean the difference between making what comes after the difficult conversation easier or just more difficult. Now, the strategy does change slightly depending on whether you need to deliver bad news or simply discuss a sensitive topic. When it comes to strictly bad news, the faster you get that bad news out, the better the conversation is going to go. For example, if you have to fire someone, the first thing out of your mouth should be, "I have bad news." Or you need to say something that's hard for them to hear, you tell them that. "This is going to be hard to hear. This is going to be a difficult conversation." This is not going to be fun for us to talk about. You give them a pause and then you deliver the bad news. In that moment, directness is also kindness.

All right.

And when it comes to sensitive topics, it's much easier to follow steps 1, 2, and 3 where you're going to say, thank you for talking with me. I need your help. I feel better about this. So let's go through an everyday typical conversation where you need to say something that's hard for them to hear. So let's assume you need to have a difficult conversation with someone and let's make it about something they said, a comment they made at a dinner with friends last week. You've tried to let it go, but it's just not happening. And you know that you need to talk with them about it. If you're following rule number 1, what you're not going to do is begin with, so how was this work? How was this work today? When you know good and well, that's not at all what you really care about, because what's worse is when you make them talk about work. And then you just drop the hammer and say, oh, that's nice. Listen, you remember what you said last week? That's a safe way to set this up for failure. Instead, what you're going to do is set aside time and say, hey, when you have a moment, can we talk about something? Next, you're going to go to rule number 2: I need your help. I need your help knowing how to feel about a comment you made at dinner last week. I've tried to let it go. I have dealt with it and and just kind of simmered on it in my mind, and I need your help with it. Then have that conversation. Tell them what they said. Tell them how it made you feel. And that's the difficult part, is that you have to express your own thoughts, and nobody can do that for you. But what makes it easier is when you lead with, I need your help. People love to be helpful. They want to be helpful rather than coming in and making them defensive and going into attack mode. When you can say, I need your help, it doesn't feel like you're sitting on two separate sides of the table, right? It makes you feel like you've instead scooted up a chair beside you and said, let's sit together and look at this problem that's on the table in front of us and let's work through it together. And when you're able to have that conversation and say what you need to say and get it all out, or maybe you just need to hear their perspective of what they meant by their comment last week. It's going to make it better and bring you closer together because it's the difficult conversations that allow you the chance to dive deeper into your relationship and grow and build. And then after you've had that conversation, number 3, you're going to end with, I feel X. I feel better. I feel relieved. I feel more settled. I feel better knowing your perspective or where you are coming from. In it. And then you ask, how about you? Or how are you feeling?

What do you think?

Get that connection just a little bit closer to, to, to wrap it up in a bow and say, hey, we just went through something that, that was a little difficult. We went through something that was not easy, and let's walk out of it hand in hand. Let's walk out of it together. Whatever it is, you have that meeting of the minds to say, I feel okay about this. You feel okay about this? Got it.

Good.

But there is an art to communicating. There is an art to arguing. There is an art, which I think has become the phenomenon of you and what you're speaking about. And you have a 3-part framework, right? Say it with control, say it with confidence, say it to connect.

That's right.

And why is that order so important?

That order is important because it begins with what you can control first, and that is yourself. So often in conversation, the first thing we want to do is control them. We're looking for what can control you. Now, you're not saying what I want you to say. You're not responding how I want you to respond. Now, what you should say is X, Y, and Z. And when you set out that way to control the other person, you're losing the most important moment and regaining your composure in conversation, and that is controlling yourself. So that's why rule number 1 is all about controlling yourself. 2 goes into the confidence, meaning that you can't get it across unless you have the assertive voice to say what you need to say, to be confident in it. And then when it comes to the difficult conversations, rule number 3 is you're saying it to connect, meaning you're having understanding, you're having acknowledgement, And that's going to build connection and build a better relationship. But it's a framework that if the conversation's not going well, most likely one of those three are missing. Maybe you're not saying it with control because you're yelling, or maybe you're not saying it to connect because you're caring more about what you're saying.

I yell, Jefferson. I don't mean to yell, but then I get all— You don't realize you're yelling.

In your defense, you don't realize you're yelling.

I get all fiery.

Nothing wrong with that.

I mean—

It's natural. That's the point. It's natural.

You know what it is? I get invested, right? I get invested in people, or I get invested in things. Like, I really put my heart, my soul, like, I get invested, and then I just, like, lose all my boundaries.

Like, I lose—

like, say it with control. I never say it with control. I never say it. Do I ever say it with control? My team's over there. I don't. I just— I don't.

They work for me, but Would you, would people say you're passionate? Is that what you would call it?

What, Rosie, you can, would you say I'm passionate? I'm very passionate. I'm very, but I'm passionate about everything.

Right.

Like I'm a passionate person. Like I'm not, I don't know. You're passionate too, but you're in a different way. She's much calmer.

Got it.

That would mean you're dynamic in conversation.

I mean, your highs are really high and your lows are really low.

There's typically no middle.

Yeah, I don't really have gray. I don't have a middle. Like, yeah, but then I'm trying because I started a company, so I'm really like, I'm trying. And like, I had to fire someone the other day, and normally I'm the one who does it with, you know, HR or somebody because I feel bad or I feel guilty or— and it was the first time where I couldn't do it because I was so upset about having to do it. Like, I literally couldn't do it. And so I took myself out of it, which I never do. And I ended up speaking to the person like 4 days later, and it was the best thing I ever did.

There's nothing wrong with taking time. I think there is this stigma that when you're in conversation, you have to have this immediate response. Just because they said something or just because they have an opinion, then you are automatically required to also have an opinion. And in fact, you have to share that opinion right now.

I think when you're on the receiving end too, it's sort of—

I listened to a podcast episode with Mel Robbins and you were on it. And sometimes it's like you realize that when people are arguing with you or if you're having an argument with your husband or whatever, a lot of the times it actually has nothing to do with the recipient, right? Like it doesn't have anything to do with me. And I think that what this episode you guys were talking about was You know, goes back to the whole let them theory that Mel has.

But you have to sort of—

I think it's one thing to know how to argue and have all of that, but it's another— there's another side of it, which is to know how to receive the argument, right? And I think that's equally important, right? Because your reaction can then trigger something further. So it's kind of like, yeah, sparring a little bit and knowing in both ways what your defense should be to an offense.

Right?

Yeah. And we have the tendency to take things as a challenge. Any little thing.

Maybe it's an opinion you don't like, or maybe you see something differently than the other person.

You want them to accept your way of seeing it rather than theirs.

Totally.

Which is winning.

Exactly.

Which is winning. Because a lot of us were raised to think that winning the argument was the goal.

Right?

Oh yeah.

There's still books and blogs and everything.

How do you say the opposite though? What is the real mind— what the mindset that can be dangerous is that. So what do we aim for? So what do we aim for?

Instead of seeing arguments as something to win, I want you to see them as something to unravel. Meaning you think of them as a knot. So anytime, let's say there's a straight line between me and you, something's going to happen or there's a snag, like there's I'm taking something the wrong way, there's some kind of miscommunication, and a knot starts to form. What we want to do typically is say, "No, you see it my way," and then you go, "No, see it my way," and what it does is just make that knot harder and harder to undo.

Today we're talking about how to sound more assertive, that feeling of being honest and direct, but at the same time respecting the other person. What does it sound like, and how can you do it?

Right away.

When you need to sound more assertive, here's what I want you to do. Number 1, stop over-apologizing. This is where you say, "I'm sorry, so sorry," in every single sentence. I know it's a tick. I know it's a habit, but you gotta stop, and I'm gonna explain why. Number 2, stop undervaluing what you have to say. That's when you downgrade your comment before you even get it out. Again, this is hurting your confidence and we're going to dive into it. And number 3, get comfortable with the word no. Get comfortable disappointing people. No is a complete sentence. I want you to think back to a conversation where you wish you would have sounded a little bit more assertive. Maybe it was at home with a partner or a spouse. Maybe it was at work with a coworker or a boss. A time where you wanted to be honest. You wanted to be direct. But you just couldn't find the words. Think back to that conversation in your mind and wonder, what could I have said differently? And here's what I need to tell you right out of the gate. If you don't find your assertive voice, you will be walked over. It will affect your confidence and it will affect the trajectory of your life. It sounds harsh, but it's very true. Now, in my life, where I found that I struggle with assertiveness the most was anytime I was new somewhere, maybe it was a new school or a new law firm, and I felt like I was crawling into it, I found myself being deferential to anybody and everything, even at the sake of my own well-being and my own boundaries. But what do you do? You're new, you, you feel like you have to do it. Well, that's not exactly true. When you find that assertive voice and you're able to say what you want to say and do it respectfully, it will change your life. And I mean for the better, because people will take notice. Your reputation will change, your credibility will change, and man, that's the good stuff. So I'm going to throw out some scenarios to you and you let me know if any of them ring a bell. You walk in 1 minute late to a meeting and the first thing out of your mouth is, "Hey, so sorry I'm late," when you throw all of your stuff down. Or it took you 2 days to respond to somebody's email and the first word in your response back is, "So sorry." So sorry, I just saw this. Sorry, I am just now getting back to you. Or you're trying to get somebody's attention and the first thing out of your mouth is, so sorry. Hey, so sorry, 2 seconds. Hey, so sorry, I just need to talk to you for a second. You gotta stop. Listen to me. You have to stop. Those aren't apologies. And if they are, well, then you're just apologizing for all the wrong things. You're apologizing for your existence. You're apologizing for your time and you're apologizing for your priorities. These aren't real apologies.

All right.

You're finding ways to feel like you're an inconvenience to someone. But let me tell you, your, your, your worth is far more than just trying to feel that you're not an inconvenience to someone, that you always have to prove that you're not an inconvenience. So we're going to fix that. And the way to do it is instead of saying, I'm sorry, you're going to say thank you. All right. It's as simple as that. Instead of saying, I'm sorry, we're going to use words of gratitude like I appreciate or thank you. So if you come in walking into that meeting and you're 30 seconds late, you're 1 minute late, nobody is expecting an apology for that. Now, if you're 5 minutes late, I think it's absolutely the right thing to apologize because at that point you're wasting their time. But if you're just a few minutes late, if you're barely over the line, it's okay to say, thank you for your patience. Thanks for waiting on me. I appreciate your time. That is assertive. Or if it's in the context of you sending an email to somebody, instead of feeling like you need to say, "Hey, so sorry, I'm just getting back to this." Just respond, "I appreciate your time. Thanks for your understanding. Thank you for your patience." These are all things that they're gonna say, "Oh yeah, well, you're welcome.

I do have patience.

I do have understanding." Instead of you going, "Hey, so sorry," this less making you feel less in that way. It's instead you're being assertive with it. You're standing in your presence and saying, "Yeah, I had other things to do." I appreciate your patience though. In the context of the conversation of telling someone, hey, so sorry, can I have 5 seconds? You just erase it. Or you say, hey, when you get a moment, I'd appreciate some of your time. Or I'd appreciate some of your time when you get a moment. When you use words of gratitude, it is a cycle of saying, I am showing gratitude for your time. At the same time, they are appreciating your presence in the conversation. Rather than you always apologizing for it. Now, a separate but related topic to over-apologizing is number 2, downplaying your words. Here you are cutting down what you have to say before you even get it out. And you know what these sound like. For example, I hate to bother you, but I mean, this might be a dumb question, but you know, probably better than me, but these are all ways of chopping down what you have to say before you get it out. And what's worse is it makes it look like you have an insecurity when there may not be one. For example, when you say something like, well, I hate to bother you, but I have this question on X, Y, and Z. Well, before they actually answer the question, you have to have this mini conversation about whether or not what you have to say does or does not bother them. And 9 times out of 10, 99% of the time they're going to say, oh, that, that, you're not bothering me, you're fine. And you go, oh, you're not? Oh, okay, great. You're inserting something that's totally needless into the conversation. And I know why you're using these phrases, all right? I know why you're using them. And because it, you want to sound deferential, you want to sound like you're coming in from a low angle, a low perspective, rather than a high angle, as if you already know everything, you expect them to want to talk to you. So when you say, "I'm sorry to bother you," you're trying to sound less harsh in the conversation, but you don't sound that way. It makes you sound like you don't believe in what you're saying. So the key to getting rid of downplaying your words, it's just not to do it. You erase these phrases from your conversation, or what I like to do, and I recommend, is that you add onto it. So for example, in the scenarios where you say, hey, this might be a dumb question, but, or this might be a stupid question. Instead say, hey, can I build onto that? Or, hey, can I take that further? Or, hey, there's something I'd like to add to that. When you add to conversations rather than shying away and taking away from them, it makes you sound far more assertive. And there's something else I want you to understand about no. Number 3 is no is a complete sentence. And here's what I mean by that. Stop feeling like you have to over-explain or justify every action or inaction that you take. When you say no, period, and leave it at that— somebody asks you a question and you say no, no— instead of over-explaining and saying, well, no, because, well, you know, I had that thing, and yeah, I got the dog, and we got this, and we got that, all of a sudden you sound less assertive and you water it down. No is all you have to say. So the key here is to stop adding because to the end of no, because it'll add more words to it. And the more words you add, the more it sounds like you're needing to explain and to justify, when often the only word that you need to sound assertive is no.

I want to ask you, you know, With what's happening with the offering you're putting out in the world of teaching people how to communicate, I'm curious for you, Jefferson, like, what are some of the traits that you admire most in people who you feel are the best communicators in the world?

Probably number one would be warmth. And people that you just— you don't even have to talk to them, you can sit in a room and just feel it. And maybe it's their energy, maybe the vibe, maybe it's their spirit. Just whatever it is, the frequency that they're putting out into the world calms you. And I find that to be very— it makes you attracted to them because you like that warmth and that comfort that when you talk to them, you feel just a little bit calmer. And so people who communicate very well are not only good at being clear and direct and assertive, but they're also emotionally intelligent enough to know when to slow down. Because things are so busy and we ramp up, but they know that good communication happens in the smallest of words, the shortest of sentences.

When someone allows their warmth to just be, do you feel like it's easier to listen to them and be around them? 'Cause I think a lot of people, especially women, feel like, oh, I've gotta, you know, if I show my warmth, I'm weak and I need to, you know, all the things. And I just think that's kind of powerful and insightful what you just shared is that when you think of the best communicators, that there's a warmth.

Yeah, well, I think you'd agree you never wanna hide your light. And I mean, there's so many opportunities that we have to do that. And it's leaning into it. If people feel like, well, I'm going to be weak if I'm perceived this way. Just if you go by how you listen to music, things that are very fast affect you, makes your mind race. When somebody's talking really, really quickly and then you can't hardly understand what they're saying and they're getting ramped up and ramped up, that kind of gets you and your anxiety up. But people who slow down, they show more control. It's not the opposite. They show more control, more confidence. When you're adding distance to your communication, you are showing them that you are comfortable exactly where you are. And that also shines onto them to show that where you are is okay too.

One thing that you seem so masterful people at that I feel like I need to work on more is this idea of pausing and of giving space. And this is gonna be a big thing for everyone listening because when we dive into all the different topics that are gonna affect our lives in so many different ways, when we start applying the tools that you share, there's this consistent theme of pause and of space. And I'll never forget, The first time I ever gave even a keynote speech, right, it was like a room of, I think it was like 10,000 people. All this stuff was, it was for a Brendon Burchard event, actually. And it was the first time outside of IT Cosmetics. And it was a long story, but he's like, "I have an opening." And I'm like, "I'm in." And it was this hour spot. And it was the most phenomenal hour. But every time people cheered or even stood up and cheered or any of the things, 'cause it was really fun. And I was just like pouring into them. I didn't know how to pause. The second they started clapping, I didn't know, and I just kept talking. And I remember afterwards he came up to me and he says, first of all, like he said a million great things, which I'm so grateful for. And then he's like, you need to learn how to pause and let the audience like have their moment. Like they're excited, they're cheering for you, they're into it, they're so excited that you opened up I overcame this huge obstacle. And I was like, huh, I didn't know how to let the pause happen. And what I love is you guys, you give so many examples in your book of ways the pause is so powerful, but just really high level, this is for everyone listening, I want you to think right now, as you're hearing me and Jefferson talk about this, when you're talking with someone, do you ever just pause and like, let there be space? And maybe you're looking at them in the eye, or do you start to feel uncomfortable and want to fill the space with words? Can you talk about the power, the power of the pause, and how right now everyone at home, like, different ways you can use just pausing and your communication and how it actually literally helps change your life?

Yeah, yeah. The pausing is the most powerful tool you can use in communication because it gives you time to choose things. It gives you time to choose, is this worth my words? Is this worth my attention? It also gives you a chance to calm your own emotions, to regulate your emotions. It gives you time to think. And when you're able to pause in conversation, it allows you to show control. If you were to ask me, Jamie, if you said, Jefferson, how was your day? And I immediately said, "Good. I mean, my day was fine. It was good. It was good." That tells you one thing. If you ask me again, "Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "It was good. It was good." Very different connotation. What you're telling in the first one is, "I didn't really listen to your question." The second pause is kind of clarifying of, "I listened to you." When somebody even gives you 1 second, 2 seconds of a pause after a question, It tells you that they're thinking about it. And it's allowing you to show that you're actually acknowledging, taking it in before you just spit out a response right away. Because we're such in a world of immediacy, of texting back right away, saying that, having that clapback as soon as you get it out. And where the real power in communication is, is slowing things down. Pause, because it allows the other people, like, just like you said, when you're speaking to people and maybe they clap or they cheer, it's allowing them to contribute to the conversation.

I just had a big aha moment, like a big aha moment, because at our core, we all just want to be seen and understood and, and, and also feel connection and belonging. And so many people feel so lonely right now and often, you know, social media can be great in so many ways, but we're lonelier than ever. And one tip you just gave, I think this is so big, and I wanna say it in the way where it really hit me, is that example you gave. 'Cause we all have this happen every day, right? "How are you?" You know, we go and grab a coffee and, you know, we might ask the person ringing us up, "How are you?" Or they might ask us, "How are you?" And we just default, "Oh, I'm great, thanks. How are you?" You know, whatever, boom, boom, boom.

Boom, boom, boom.

And we don't even know what we're saying. It's just like autopilot. And yet we're all lonely and we all want more connection. And we're like, why is my husband and I sitting here scrolling our phone? And I don't even know how he is. I told him how I was, but I don't think he cared. Like whatever our scenario is, or, you know, moms at school drop-off or whatever it might be. That example you just gave is so powerful and it's so relatable because, You know, when someone says, "How are you?" And you're like, "Oh, I'm good, thanks." There's pretty much no connection happening, right? And when someone says, "How are you?" And you just pause, and you think about it, and then you say your answer, maybe it's like, "I'm good," or whatever it is, that pause instantly tells that other person, "I see you, you matter to me." I'm giving you my energy and consideration 'cause I care to connect with you over the question you asked me.

Yeah, you got it.

Holy moly.

That is like instant hack to connection with humans. And we're all, so many of us are just feeling like we're missing that in our lives more and more. I have heard you use the pause in so many different ways. And this is the first time I'm having this big aha over this. Because right now, every person listening, every person watching us, right now, today, they can watch it, walk into a coffee shop, they can look at the person sitting next to them in the room right now, right? They can, whatever, next time they're interacting with people and someone asks them this, or they ask someone else that, add this pause in it. Because then it almost catches someone off guard too, and they realize you are are— you're connecting with them, right? You're connecting with them.

Yes.

When you're able to ask that question—

I'm going to do this with my husband tonight.

You should do it.

I'm doing it tonight. I'm doing it tonight. And I'm going to do it with my kids, actually. I'm going to do it with my kids too.

Well, it's so— what we fall into is instead of living in it, we just— we're just pressing the buttons.

Yes.

You know, they— barista asks, "How's your day?" "Oh, it's good.

I'm fine.

How are you?" "Oh, good.

I'm fine." I just—

we're just pressing buttons.

Yes.

We're not really living in it. Let me tell you the one trick to making sure that it does work with your kids and with your husband.

We want the trick.

We want the trick. This is what I live by, and I teach this to every one of my clients, and it is this: let your breath be the first word that you say. So where your first word would be of going, "No, I'm good. I'm good," you put a breath in it. In its place. And so when you have the mindset of a breath being the word, I mean, it's because you're saying something even in that pause, in that breath, in that silence. It might be the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication. So if you ask me how my day was and I go, I conveyed something right there. That's a sigh. I'm sending the message to you without words "It was heavy. It was a load. It was a lot." I mean, and when you have that pause, it's the invitation to connect.

Hmm.

So good.

Yeah.

So good. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm already excited for the way everyone is gonna share how this impacts their life.

Yes.

Like, the DMs are gonna come in, comments, the messages. And we're just getting started. But that one tool, That one tool. I'm just thinking about— and the ripple effect of that.

Yeah.

Because as a society, we're really close to bankrupt when it comes to, like, true, just connection.

It really is. And the thing with communication, what it makes it so important, on top of just the pause and the ability to take a moment and express how you really feel, is that what you say for the vast majority of your life is who you are. That's how people will experience you. That's how people will experience Jamie. That's how people will experience Jefferson. It's not by really what you do, though they might see that act of kindness. It's what you say. When you say, "I like that person," you just met them. You say, "I like that person. They were nice." What you really mean is, They said nice things. Somebody's rude and you don't like them. Yeah, that person's rude. Just means that what you heard is you didn't like. It sounded rude to you. So for the vast majority, it is your words is what describes who you are to those people. That's what's going to describe and evaluate your legacy. That's the ripple effect.

I want to talk to you about like workplace disagreements because I think difficult conversations with family, with friends is one thing. When you're in a professional environment and you have to have a disagreement, and let's say, like, you really think you're right, right? You've got an issue, a colleague or your boss, but you can't go and have the conversation as you would maybe ordinarily with a friend. What is the proper way to handle those type of disagreements?

There's some things that come to mind. One is this idea of frames. And anybody listening right now can apply a frame to every conversation, whether it's the workplace, the boardroom, the living room, whatever one. And this is how you do it. Number 1, you want to tell the person what you want to talk about. Number 2, you want to tell them how you want to feel or walk away from that conversation. That's adding the goal into it. And number 3, you get their buy-in into the frame. So let's say I need to address some comments you made yesterday, Emma. It would sound like this. Number 1, I talk to you, I say, Emma, I need to talk to you about some comments that you made at yesterday's meeting. I wanna walk away from that conversation with the understanding of knowing that's not gonna happen again.

Oh.

Sound good?

Oh.

And like, now you have it.

Now you know exactly where you're going in that conversation.

It could be about anything though.

Hey, I'd like to talk with you about our meeting tomorrow and make sure that we're aligned on expectations for the budget.

Totally, yeah.

That work?

Perfect, they're gonna say great. Instead of the, hey, you got 5 minutes?

Mm-hmm.

And which is never 5 minutes. And also it depends, are you trying to tell me a story Are you trying to give me something that I need right now? 'Cause right now I'm focused on this email that I'm working on. So there's a lot of different ways of using that frame. Two, I want you to think of when you need to disagree with someone, especially in front of other people, but in any conversation, instead of the, I disagree, I don't agree, like that's gonna make them very defensive because they're gonna go, no, that's mine. You need to have my idea. Most people love ideas, they just love theirs the best. And so when you're able to say, Instead of, "I disagree," tweak that to say, "I see things differently." Talk in a matter of perspectives, not in points. So you might be making a great point, but what you need to do is just talk about the perspective. "I see it differently. I have another take. I have a different perspective." Whenever you can say that, they're not going to get defensive, so it's going to allow them to do that. Third is you can prime the conversation with something like, "I'm telling you this because..." Now you can use this in a romantic setting. I'm telling you this because I love you. I'm telling you this because you're my friend. Versus that, instead of that, hey, I love you, but yes, you hear the difference? Yeah, I totally hear the same thing in the workplace. I'm telling you this because I know you value transparency. I'm telling you this because I know we're all headed to the same goal and we all support each other.

I'm telling you this because I want to leave this meeting with alignment.

Perfect, there you go, just like that.

And I'll give you another thing that I really like for the workplace. Anybody who's ever can relate to this of throwing out an idea around a boardroom and somebody immediately tries to cut it down, it's because they think their idea's the best, they want, they're very protective of their ideas, and so they like to poke holes in yours 'cause it's not theirs.

Of course.

So, but when you say, I have 20% of an idea, use percentages. So I have 20% of an idea, I need your help with the other 80%. Then now—

That's a good one. Now you create this collaboration.

Now everybody's— now they feel it like a challenge to build to the 80%.

Yeah, because there's like a sense of ownership in the rest of the idea.

Now they feel like they're building it.

All right, so what happens then? Because I'm just gonna keep picking on this. What if you have to prove your case? Like, what happens when nobody's with you in the room and you feel very, very strong to the point of, like, emotionally strong in an idea? What do you do? Like, how do you create— it's not so much an argument, but when, like, the room is against you, like, how do you bring people around when it's like, I know I'm right about this thing?

So I would—

here's what my thought is. Number one, I would say out loud, I know you're against me on this. Because what happens is when we make a statement, people love to correct us, right? They love to correct us.

So what they're actually thinking is when you say, no, no, I'm not against you, that's what they're gonna do, right?

Exactly. You got it. If you're saying it, they they correct you. So there's a difference between this idea, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, that guarantees they're gonna take it the wrong way.

But if I say, you're probably gonna take this the wrong way, they're gonna go, no, I'm not.

So you lead with the, I know you're all against me on this. Automatically everybody's gonna go, no, we're not, in their head. And then two, you're gonna lead with the goal of whatever you're asking for, why, not their point, but where you're headed in this conversation, like the communal goal, which is always gonna be higher than the issue you're presenting. So whether it's, and it needs to be more specific than alignment. It needs to be, I know we're looking at trying to build X quarter. I know we have the, we wanna expand here. So you have to hit them with the common goal because now they're in. Now they're like, you're getting that first agreement with them. Yes, we all are. And 3 is you're giving the mission of what I feel strongly about. So when you can even prime it with, I am telling you this because I believe that I am very right on this subject, or I've— in my experience, this is where we're going to go, I need to voice this, or I— it can be simple as that. I'm telling you this because I have to say this out loud, or I do— I will not forgive myself if I leave this meeting without this unsaid. Then they're going to allow you to say it rather than take it as an attack.

Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. I feel like, so, you know, you can you know, all the best plans that you might have in the world, still sometimes things can just go the wrong way, right? They can just go a little bit, and they do, right? They just go a little bit left. Do you feel like you need to always bring like somebody else in to have the conversation? Do you think the disagreements are more easily settled between two people, or there's like a real need for HR to come into some of these workplace disagreements?

Depends on the topic. Yeah, there are some things where it is smarter and wiser for you to have a witness, right, to the conversation.

We're putting on your legal hat now.

There you go.

You need, you need to have a witness to that conversation for somebody who's objective and can, can hold, hold court on that. If you said something at the meeting and I'm— I have two choices. Maybe you said something I didn't like. I have two choices. I can spread things about you that's ugly and just breed toxicity, or I can address it with you directly.. And that oftentimes gets more respect from the other person of, you could have done this with that, you could have reported it here. I'm talking to you now. And it's that concept we talked about of you need to tell them who you are. And that doesn't mean telling them your name. That means telling them who your character is, your values, and has all to do with that direct one-on-one conversation.

Yeah, I love that. I also think you go back to what you said earlier about the end result. Like, what do you want? The end result. Nobody wants a problem in the workplace. You want to be able to get on with your colleagues. So it's like, what are you trying to optimize for here? It's not like to win the battle. It's like just to have the ease of a good work life. And so you have to think about that from an end result. What happens if you are really— if something happens in the workplace that does verge on unprofessionalism, if somebody insults you, if somebody is really rude or degrading to you in some way, is there like— what should you say in that moment? Because I feel like sometimes we get in our own heads and we'll go home and beat God, I wish I'd have been able to say that. How do you deal with that in the moment in a way that isn't lashing back out?

Right.

It's not unprofessional, but by the same token, it's like you've crossed a line here.

You want to make sure you add about 5 to 7 seconds of silence.

We're going back to the silence. This is really hard for me. All this breathing and silence. I'm such a lasher out. I don't know what to do with all this breathing. Yeah, we're breathing. It gets 7 seconds this time.

I was good.

I could get on the 4, but the 7 is a lot for me.

Okay. Yeah, well, depends what they say. Depends what they say. You know, something not nice.

Exactly.

So let's say you said something ugly to me.

I would never.

You would never. But let's say you did. That was truly insulting or condescending. There's a difference between me catching it and throwing it back at you harder, because that's what you want to do. I want to say something harder. Well, then now I'm the one that has to apologize. Now I'm the one that's had the the worst offense. But if I just give it 5 seconds of nothing and I let it, what I picture is you just let their words fall to the ground. They don't even reach you. And then now you kind of get to look at it on the ground and look at them like, is that what you wanted to say? Kind of give them, that's what the silence does. And so when they realize that they didn't get that hit of dopamine, they didn't get that reaction, they didn't get that response, Oh, it just makes them feel uncomfortable. They're realizing it's not fun. That's why oftentimes they'll already apologize for it, or they'll take it back and they'll say, no, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that, because they heard it again in the silence. And so long silences are like mirrors that allows them to hear their words back. I do that a lot of times in litigation with people who I know are lying under oath. If you add that silence It just eats them. It eats them up. And they'll often get to the truth before you even have to say anything because they know you're not buying it. So one would be the silence.

Silence is great.

I've been really tripping myself up my whole life. I just chit-chat to fill the gaps.

I'm so annoyed.

Silence is a whole lot more powerful because it's—

though it's a tool, the way you're talking about it is it's literally, as you know, it's a mirror.

It's a tool.

It is. And though it's the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication. I mean, you're still saying so many things.

And what you're saying is, especially when you look at them and the words and they're falling on the floor and we're both looking at the word. I mean, it's the whole thing. I can totally visualize this whole thing. And you would feel embarrassment.

Right.

And I guess it's the same, like, if you lash out at your partner, if you have that moment of silence, you will feel horrendous.

Yes.

Because now you've put that word out on a plank, like you've exposed it. You've exposed your ugly. And people don't like their ugly being exposed. And so when you have that silence and then you can ask them to say it again, which is the best.

Have you done this?

Oh, yeah.

Have you?

Yeah. Would you say— can you say that again? Would you repeat yourself?

Yeah. So you ask—

you can—

yeah, either one of those.

You could say, I need you to say that again, but not like, say that.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I need you to say that again.

I didn't catch that. I need you to say that again. "Can you repeat that?" Anything like that, it's— they don't want to do it because it's not just a spotlight on their bad behavior, it's getting them to double down on it. And that's a whole lot harder for people. They often will not do it. And number 3, what I want you to do is ask a question of intent. This is for the people that do double down. This is for the people who really want to go that far. And you can use this in everyday even at the workplace, you say, did you mean? That's what I want you to begin with. Did you mean? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to hurt my feelings? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to belittle me? When you ask that, it's doing two things. One, it's giving them this, particularly in text message, you say, did you mean? Like, did you mean for that to be short? Have you ever with a significant other?

Totally.

And you're like, oh, I guess you're mad because you sent okay or K or whatever it is. You say, did you mean for that to be short? They go, no, no, no, I'm busy with the kids. I'm dropping off something else. Giving them the grace. Number 2, it's making them have to hear their words and the intent. And they have a hard time living with the intent when it's actually to hurt you.

Wow. So you're going to go— the insult is that the insult happens. Yes. You're going to go, 7 seconds silent, and then you're gonna repeat it back to him. You're gonna get him to double down on it.

Yeah.

It's almost like I'm wishing for someone to be rude to me now.

Yeah.

Wow. That's some powerful stuff.

I'm better than reacting to it.

I know. And this is— I just feel like so much of this is ingrained. I watched so many interviews with you where you are so even-keeled. You have such a beautiful way of communicating. And I feel like I'm gonna blame my upbringing. But I just— I kind of feel like I was forged in fire, right? I was raised to fight fighting words head on. And I think that my immediate kind of reaction is to do this, what the kids would call crashing out, right? I'm literally ready to go headfirst into this horrible reaction. Can you train yourself? Can you train yourself to be— more thoughtful? And, you know, like, you have so many tips, but like, how does that become ingrained in who you are and how you choose to communicate?

We often think only of the moment in time and when we're talking together. We rarely think of the moment after, after you said the hurtful thing, after you said something you can't take back, when you can't unring the bell. And when you start thinking of the issue behind the issue of, yeah, okay, we can talk about this, but we have to think of a life together. We have to think about the kids that we want to raise. We have to think about the company that we want to build together. Whenever you're thinking about the issue that's behind it, it allows you to slow down.

Yeah.

You want to be the one who leads the company, then show more control. You want to do that and slow your pace. You want to do that and stop with the reactions. You want to do that, then control your emotions. It's not that difficult unless you just choose to say, you know what, this is a moment that I can take, and I can either choose to say something or I can choose to breathe. One of those is going to lead to better outcomes.

Yeah, I feel like you're completely right about that. I mean, because I think the reason that I have so much been able to, in my older years, calm down and be more thoughtful about the way I communicate is because I didn't like the way I felt after the reaction. Right. And so it's like you see yourself in that moment and you stop wanting that feeling of like, God, I wish I could have done better. I could have handled that situation. I didn't like myself in that moment. And that kind of distance, being able to see and be like, I don't want to feel like that, will really change the way you speak.

It feels good in the moment.

Yeah.

For 20 seconds.

Feels good in the moment, but then the bad feeling lasts a lot longer.

That's the problem, right?

Yeah.

You don't want to be the one left holding the consequence of your own words.

Okay, so this is a question on communication. So when you say for people to prepare what they want to say before they say it, I have had issues where I would prepare so much in my mind that I would play out the whole situation, then I'd be like, you know what, I'm not even going to talk. Yeah, you know, I mean, I've already had the conversation in my head. I'm like, I say this and then they say this and then I say this and then I do this and then we're back to this place, and they didn't even know that I had the whole thing. So how can the people prepare for conversations but not create a scenario where they're affirming stories in their head about the relationship and they're allowing breathing room and space for a different texture to arise? So it's like, if in our relationship, instead of being like, he always does this, he never listens to me, he never does that, if I say this, he's going to say that, how can I be like, I want to prepare what I'm going to say, but I also want to create a space where I'm not overpreparing so that you can show up differently?

Yeah. So what you do is you prime the conversation.

Okay.

And this is how you do it. You're going to tell the person, I have something I want to share, but it's not fully thought out.

Or, I'm nervous about sharing this. Or, this is going to sound confusing.

Or, this might jump around.

You are telling—

you're being vulnerable in this moment when you can say, I'm nervous to share this with you. Would you just listen anyway? And they're gonna say yes.

That's what's gonna happen.

'Cause if they don't, then they're a jerk. Sorry, if I'm like, I'm nervous to share something with you. I was like, I hope I find a man that says yes. Yeah, I mean, but the thing is, nobody's gonna—

No, for sure.

They're just not going to, particularly in a romantic relationship. And when you can say, this is not fully thought out, I'd like to say this to you, or I need to, I need to say this. This is what's on my chest, what's on my heart, what's in my head. What I'll often leave with is, I don't know where this is going. I just need it out of my head. And so when I can start with, I'm not sure where this is going yet, but I need it out.

I need to say this out loud. It's just letting them know.

It's kind of striking that balance, like you said, of I don't want to over-prepare. At the same time, I want them to know This is an evolving conversation. Another thing you can do, let's say in the workplace, let's put it for anybody listening in the workplace context, use a percentage. So what I mean by that is, let's say you need to throw out an idea. People think when you throw out an idea, it has to be a bow on it, needs to be 100% of an idea, and it's for them to decide to say it's great or not.

Like, you give an idea for a meeting or something and somebody goes, that's a terrible idea. Go, okay, well, you think of something.

Well, use a percentage of, all right, I got 10% of an idea. Y'all let me know on the other 90%. Or I got 30% of an idea. You're telling them that this is not fully thought out. You're responsible to help me with the other 70%. We're brainstorming here. You can still do that even in the romantic relationship setting. Okay, I have, I have 20% of a thought here.

And I'd like to hear you on the other 80%.

And it just tells them that, hey, I don't have everything figured out.

I don't have all the answers, but I have something that I need to say. I need to get out of my head and communicate with you.

I love that. It's vulnerability. It's creating freedom.

Yeah.

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