How To Handle Fake Apologies and Become Someone That Can’t Be Manipulated!

When someone gives you a bad apology, it's one of the most frustrating experiences because you want them to apologize, and they know that you want them to apologize, and they know that they could. They could say the words, and they might know deep down that they should, but they won't for lots of reasons. Maybe this person has narcissistic tendencies. Maybe this person has a very defensive behavior at the moment. And let's be honest, there's times where I just don't feel like apologizing right now. Maybe I will, but I don't feel like it in the moment. And maybe that's the same way with that other person. How do you handle a bad apology? There's two choices. You could either accept it or choose not to accept it. Too often there's the tendency to accept that apology and just move on. Just life goes on. You're gonna accept it, be done with it, and get over it. Or you're not going to accept it and escalate the situation. You're going to say more things like, "You don't even care about my feelings. Whatever, I'm out." The fight or flight is going to kick in. You're going to say things that are more harmful and hurtful, or you're going to want to shut down and hang up the phone or leave the room. So it's these choices that I'm going to ask you to set aside and choose a different option. There's a third option, and that is to assertively stand your ground and ask for what is yours. And that is an apology if they're willing to give it. Some people aren't, but we're going to talk about that, of that state of mind that you go into to understand, "I hear what you're saying, and that's not a genuine apology. Here's what I'm willing to accept." One of the most common culprits of bad apologies is number 1, the no-apology apology. These are the type that say, "Well, I'm sorry if you feel that way." Ever heard somebody tell you that? I'm sorry you feel that way. And you're left standing there going, how do I respond to this? I'm gonna tell you how. When somebody says, I'm sorry that you feel that way, you're going to respond, don't apologize for my feelings. Apologize for what you said. I'm gonna say that again. The next time that somebody says, I'm sorry you feel that way, yep, Hey Jefferson, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. They tell you that, you're not going to accept it and you're not going to escalate the situation. You're going to calmly respond, don't apologize for my feelings. Apologize for what you said. Here, what you're saying is, don't apologize for my feelings. I got those. These are my feelings and nobody needs to apologize for how I feel, let alone the person who has caused me harm or made the error. It should be your action that you're apologizing for. So you're calling them out and saying, no, I need, I need you to take some accountability for what you said. And you say it in a way that says, no, I kind of, I appreciate the thought. You don't need to apologize for my feelings. I need you to apologize for what you did, for what you said, for whatever it is. You're flipping the dynamic. That takes away the power of their bad apology. Another A very popular apology is the justification apology. This is where they blame what they did on something else. Maybe it's stress related to work. Maybe it's something else going on in their life. And you typically hear it like this. This is number 2. I'm sorry, I've just been so stressed lately. I'm sorry, I've just been so under the gun. I'm sorry, I've just been X, Y, and Z. Whenever you hear that, I'm sorry, I just, and they're shifting the responsibility of what they did or what they said to you onto some third party, some external factor. When you hear that, you're going to, one, listen and calmly say, "You don't need to apologize for your stress, but you do need to apologize for what you said to me. I need you to apologize for what you did." You see how you flip that dynamic? Instead of getting more upset and saying, "What are you talking about? You haven't been stressed. Stressed? How about you live, you know, walk a mile in my shoes and see how stressed I am." and you start comparing who's busiest, and it goes south really quickly. So whenever they blame something, it's often stress. Say, I'm sorry, I've just been so stressed lately. I've just been so overwhelmed. Whenever you hear that, you sound a lot more calm and controlled when you say, you don't need to apologize for your stress. You don't need to apologize for the week that you've had, as if it's in an understanding way to say, yeah, I get it. I'm not trying to doubt. I'm not trying to debate. That you've had a hard week or that you've been stressed, because if you start to challenge that, it's going to spiral down and it's not going to go well. Instead, you're just going to acknowledge it. So, yeah, I understand. You don't need to apologize for your stress. I need you to apologize for what you just said. If you want this conversation to continue, I'm going to need you to apologize for what you just said, unless you meant it. And if you did, then we need to have a more serious conversation. See what I mean?

A lot stronger.

And number 3, another big major category of bad apologies are conditional ones. These are the ones that say, "I'm sorry if..." "I'm sorry if you were offended by that." "I'm sorry if you didn't like what I had to say." You've heard that before? I know that I certainly have. As you can imagine, between attorneys and phone calls and judges and hearings, there are a lot of bad, disingenuous apologies that get thrown around, especially right after saying something that's very inappropriate or impolite at the moment. So if you hear the phrase, I'm sorry if you, I'm sorry if you were offended, I'm sorry if you didn't like what I had to say, you're going to go back to what we talked about in number 1 and calmly and coolly say, you don't need to apologize for my reaction. I need you to apologize for what you just said. See how you sound much more assertive, how you're leaning into it? See, most of the time if they say, well, I'm sorry if you were offended, You go into, "Well, I mean, I wasn't really offended," and you start trying to justify your feelings. You start trying to explain to them your feelings of how you meant in that moment and what they said and what they said meant to you. So often you can eliminate that altogether and flip the dynamic to say, "You don't need to apologize for my reaction." Kind of like number 1, I got that.

That's my reaction.

I need you to apologize for what you just said. Or if they say, well, I'm sorry if you were upset, you can respond with, it's not an if, it's a that.

You hear me?

It's not an if, it's a that. It's a quick way to tell them it's not, there's no if here. It's not, I'm sorry if I hurt you. It's, I'm sorry that. See the difference? Good. Now, almost every bad apology has a giveaway. You ready for it? As a dead giveaway that you can tell right away it's not a good apology, they say, "I'm sorry that you," or, "I'm sorry if you." They rarely, by a few exceptions, will say, "I'm sorry that I." The good apologies will typically begin with, "I'm sorry that I." "I'm sorry that I said that." They will take responsibility because they're using the word "I." The ones that throw it back to say, "I'm sorry that you," No, that's never going to go well in any circumstance. So you need to watch out for the case that when they say, I'm sorry that you, I'm sorry that you feel that way, I'm sorry that you were upset by that, I'm sorry that, uh, you can't take a joke. It's never— I'm not gonna say never, it's typically not a good apology. It's a bad one. Okay, we're now at the portion where I get to read a follower's email. If you're not part of my weekly newsletter, I send out a tip, communication tip once a week right to your inbox. And I have the ability to interact with you and you ask questions, ask for certain advice on things. I can give it in my email. It's a whole lot of fun. If you're not part of that group, it's going to be in the show notes there at the bottom. Here I have it on my other phone and let me pull it up real quick. This is from Maria over in Brazil. Never been to Brazil. Maria says, thank you so much for your content. Thanks, Maria. I have an issue with my mother. It never fails that anytime that we are at a family engagement or we are coming to visit her, she always apologizes in a way that says, I'm so sorry that I'm a bad mom. I hear this all the time, no matter what I do. I'm so sorry that I'm a bad mom. What can I say to, what can I say to that? There's other like personal information that I don't wanna include. Maria, I'm sorry that you're having to go through that. That is not uncommon for people to certain people that they want to make sure that instead of apologizing, they want to make you feel bad for them in some way. Because that's what it is when somebody says, oh, I'm sorry that I'm such a terrible person. I'm sorry that you're so perfect. What they're wanting you to do and hoping— what your mother's hoping, or anybody who does this is hoping— that you will say, well, all right, I'm, I'm not so perfect, or you're not a bad mom. That's really— no, no, you're not a bad mom. You're a really good mom. And then they'll say, well, you always— you never do this. You never do that. No, you always tell me I'm so terrible. And they start making stuff up. You're going, what are you talking about? I've never done that. I've not said that. You're referencing something that happened 5 years ago. They're wanting to create a structure to manipulate the situation that has it to where you are the one that apologizes to them. You're the one that needs to say I'm sorry. You're the one that needs to owe them something in a way, because they want you to feel bad either about yourself or the way that you've treated them, all to get you to avoid having to hear them say an apology. So when that happens, when somebody says, well, I'm sorry that you're so perfect, well, I'm sorry that I'm such a bad mom, a bad dad, a bad person, don't take the bait. All right, Maria, don't take that bait. Just let that go. And only the only thing I want you to respond with is this: I'm willing to accept an apology. Mom, I'm willing to accept an apology. Here, what you're doing is just letting go what they said, the distraction, the potential manipulation, to say, I'm going to put all that aside. And I'm going to tell you what I'm willing to accept. I'm willing to accept an apology. I'm willing to accept a genuine apology. That I will accept, and then that we're going to be done. It's this mindset of you're just going to stay still and you're not going to go chase what everybody else is doing. Sound good? So it— just understand when that happens, it's very normal, it's very common. It's just ways of trying to get the spotlight off of them and deflect Right? You've heard that. They just want to deflect responsibility. It's another tactic of doing that. They just want to send it off to somebody else and it just happens to be you in the room. So they want to blame other people for how and why they're acting a certain way. So instead you say, I'm willing to accept an apology.

Yeah.

And if somebody says, well, I did apologize. I know I said, I'm sorry. I said, sorry. There it is. I'm done. I said, I'm sorry. That's not a real apology either because they don't mean it. So what I like to do when you kind of hear that, all you need to say is, I'm willing to accept it when it sounds like a real apology. I'm willing to accept it when it sounds like you mean it. I'll accept it when it sounds like you mean it. So just understand that when you're saying these phrases of I'm willing to accept or I will accept it, you're giving them an out. You're saying, hey, you can be out of this situation. I'm willing to accept it. At any point when it sounds like a real genuine apology. And I have to make sure that I tell you, some apologies are never going to come. They're not going to happen. It's not your fault. There's no magic phrase. There's nothing you can say that's going to make someone apologize. If they don't want to, they won't. You just can't do anything about that. But what you can do is to decide and reprioritize in your mind how important this person is to you. Because if they're not willing to apologize to something that is important to you, then that should be considered in a major way if they truly do care about you and want to be in your life and want to be the better part of your life. So understand that some apologies aren't going to happen. That doesn't mean that you've done something wrong. That doesn't mean that you're a failure, a failure. It doesn't mean that any of the blame should be placed on you. That's just not going to happen for some people for any number of reasons in any number of contexts. But I want to make sure that I tell you, when they refuse to apologize, don't keep digging a hole that you're never going to find water in. Don't try to force it when it's just not going to happen. If you need to, you can say, Hey, is there a chance that we can have another conversation? We can talk about how I need an apology from what just happened. Maybe if you postpone it in a certain way, because sometimes people don't want to apologize in the moment. To say, you know, I will apologize, I'm not ready to right now. That's valid. That's a real feeling. But to totally dismiss you altogether and say, I'm never apologizing for that, I'm not apologizing, I've done nothing wrong, I'm never going to apologize. You need to, instead of continuing to force it and pressure and make it look like you're pleading for this apology, what you really just need is, is an acknowledgment that they know what they did. That's really what you want at the end of the day. You just want them to acknowledge, because apologies often are really for you so that you can understand and hear that they acknowledge what they did and they acknowledge the consequences of it and those repercussions. So Make sure and hold your ground, and if they don't want to apologize, that's not your fault. Bad apologies are never fun. They're extremely frustrating. It makes you want to just scream out loud sometimes, but instead we're just going to keep ourselves calm and cool. And remember, when you hear bad apologies, go back to the mindset of where are they trying to take me and how can I bring them back to it? So if somebody says, "Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way," number 1, you're going to respond, "You don't need to apologize for my feelings." I need you to apologize for what you said. If they try to make something number 2 that's conditional to say, I'm sorry if— I'm sorry if you feel that way. You're going to go back to number 1. You don't need to apologize for my reaction. I got that. I'll control my reaction. I need you to take accountability for what you did. And if somebody is trying to push off that responsibility altogether, understand that it's okay to just let it go and understand where that person is in your life and how important they are.

To you.

Bad apologies, never fun. But you handle those tips, you get a hold of those tips, take them to heart, you'll be able to do it better next time.

If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you?

It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really want to portray confidence, there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big. You need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. That does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just— you're sitting with me or with anybody and you come on super strong, that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation, or it's going, oh, this is too much. I'm just getting to know you. So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I want to portray confidence, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk, with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I'm focused right with you. My chin's up. I'm not looking down. My shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy.

Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations?

A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It's just overcompensating most of the time. If somebody is— you're wanting to project high energy, it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people, you're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it. You need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates.

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with who— with the person that I was. I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me, um, because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering, I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms, fitness, my relationship to myself, my personal relationships, purpose, and so on, that, that allowed me to be able to, I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high-value, high level of self-respect, et cetera, or is it just exposure therapy through practice through having conversations like this?

It's a comfort with yourself. Exposure helps just by repetition. You can only know so much. It has to have application, but it comes from within. I see this a lot of time at a jury trial. So, as a litigator, I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They need to portray some— maybe they need to portray sympathy, hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense about them. We can just tell. There's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, that person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is— I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it. You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are, but that typically draws away. It doesn't— it rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. People, it's leave the window fronts for, for shopping, but don't, don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality, because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down, because after a while it's just going to be friction, and, and that's going to have a rub, and that's going to get worn, and that's going to be hard to you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right, where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do. And people can pick up on that right away. But I will say, I think on the opposite end of that, like, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell, like, they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but. But for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And people who walk with and looking, you know, at the ground when they're walking, because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how, in your experience, like what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

It's a balance and that balance is specific to context. It's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors. There's this fear And it's a type of psychological threat of identity. And that makes you question, what if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment? And that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake, but it causes you to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always always needing to be the person to say something. Often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person, knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this understanding of, I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am. And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's, it's, it's always the, the reverse of what we, what we originally think.

As any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online because you want to know, are people going to like the book? That's the whole You get very nervous. Are you going to deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen, you are not a target. I was once told by my husband, you are an easy target and everyone knows it. Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips. That's what I thought it would be. No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people. I was just taken aback. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says verified purchaser. This is my point with this is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, This is where it stops. Rule number 1 in my book, there are 3 rules. It's rule number 1, say it with control. Number 2, say it with confidence. Number 3, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number 1 is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I can give you, none of it matters if you do not say it with control if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're going to talk about in this episode what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Anytime that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally, through its biology, reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, That's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments. Even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you, when somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, hey brain, I didn't like that. And the brain goes, give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that. And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You want to say something back. You get heated. You're nervous. Neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number 1 in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds a distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you. And it also— the other benefit is It allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, I am threatened. Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic, somebody merges, somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, I am threatened. That's where road rage comes from. I feel threatened in this environment. When you're talking with your kids, when somebody says something to you that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, hey, that feels threatening to me. I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later. Do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you, and we're going to put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just feels like it sets you off? That you just explode when somebody does this to you? You got it? You find that word. Now, write it down. And right next to it, I want you to write, does not threaten me. Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life.

Why?

Because it is telling your body, hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, hey, this does not threaten me. That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body what is happening in front of me is not a threat, right? It's this idea that, um, you have— you've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have like some, maybe a little dog or something, they just go, what is this? It's like a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, hey, what you're doing is— this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it.

Cool.

I'm going to tell you a quick story right now that I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared. This was maybe 3 weeks ago or so. And where was I? I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's blurring, blending together at this moment. And it's early. Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate, looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs. And then all of a sudden I was outside of it, outside of the security, the gate, the terminal. It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal. And I just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID.

I had—

I started walking out and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, or has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look and I go— I say this out loud— I go, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again because I have to know I'm going farther down where a separate terminal is. And I say, oh my gosh, I got to do this all over again. And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice, goes, that's why you should read the signs, sir. And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, you have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs. I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me, just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I remember being just taken aback. Who, who are you? And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible. And I— hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There's some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was middle-aged lady. Just looked so smug when soon as she said that. And this is what my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was kind of, it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it— I looked at her for like 5 seconds trying to figure out, is this— did she say that? And I just give it time, and now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, how do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Does it give you joy? That's what I said, verbatim. And immediately she got red, like, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I don't have to prompt anything. She goes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sir. You're right, that wasn't kind. You're right, sir.

I'm sorry.

Yes, you can find the terminal if you go straight down. And now she was in helping mode. Now she's in helping mode. You can go right here and this is where it's going to be. I would say, oh, well, thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

All right, you have a wonderful day. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life. How are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me, is that what Excuse me, are you talking to me? You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you, it's not going to work. It ain't gonna work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say. And we have different podcast episodes on that. And I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know, and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean— did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response, it's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "You spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character, and 9 times out of 10, The other person sees that because they— because you're giving them time to— are seeing. It's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red— it's not blood— the red comes out of their system, you know, or somebody's seeing red. You have to give them time for that to go away, come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not— people are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that.

So these are what I call dismissive comments in that they are dismissing your feelings, trying to dismiss any consequence of what they said. And in many ways, I want you to see these comments as them trying to control the eventual outcome. Imagine somebody, imagine me just punching you in the arm and you go, "Ow!" I go, "That didn't hurt." You ever had that happen? Maybe as a kid growing up or you have a sibling? I know I'm the oldest of 4 and that definitely happened when you're roughhousing, you're wrestling, you do something, you go, "That didn't hurt." And they go, "What do you mean that didn't hurt?" So I want you to imagine that in your mind, that somebody's hit you in the arm and then they tell you that didn't hurt, as if they get to decide that, yeah, I hit you in the arm, but it didn't hurt. So no, no harm, no foul, right? You are the one that gets to decide that. And we're going to talk about these techniques on each one of these. And I want you to emphasize the idea that They don't get to say the outcome. They don't get to say the consequence.

You do.

They don't get to say what hurts. You do, right? You with me? All right, let's go. So first up is, I was just joking. I was just joking. That's just a joke. I hear that all the time. I know that you do too. When you get that dismissive comment back to you on something, I was just joking. Here's what I want you to do. Play off of this. If they want to make it a joke, then it better be funny. So what I like to say is, if somebody tells you, "I was just joking," you respond, "Then make it funnier. Then make it funnier." Easy as that. That's number 1. Number 2, you could easily say, "Then work on your material or find new material." How about that? "Then find new material." In other words, don't be making a joke about me. Don't be making a joke about something else. If they try to say, something that is hurtful to you. Let's say they made a comment about your looks or your weight or your age or whatever it is, and then you kind of take offense to that and they go, "Hey, it was just a joke, okay?" As if all of a sudden they've taken away any stinger that they have. When they make that kind of stuff, you say, "Well, then find new material." Or, "Was that supposed to be of the funny kind? Was that supposed to be funny?" "Hey, it was just a joke." Then be funnier. Then find new content. Then find new material. Any way that you can play off the word of a joke, it's going to work to your advantage. My favorite is, then be funnier, because it is a reminder right there in that moment of, if you wanted this to be a joke, that's not what it is. This— you can't just tailor a dismissive comment that's meant to be hurtful to me and just call it a joke and make sure everything is— then we're all good. And we're all good. No, no harm, no foul, like I talked about. When that kind of stuff happens, easily twist it back on them as, was that supposed to be funny, or was that the funny kind of joke? Whenever you can ask those, those kind of things and put them on their heels to say, that's, that's not going to pass with me. Number 2, one of my least favorite, is don't take it personally. Hey, don't take it personally. Like, come on, then, then don't say it personally. What do you, what do you mean don't take it personally? You just said it to my face. How, how can it not be any more personal? It is to me one of the just a total withdrawal of all accountability, of any ability to say, look, that was on me. You know what? I shouldn't have said that instead of this. Don't take it personally. I can't stand that comment. Here is some things that I like to use, and I know you can use them too. I get to decide that. I love that one because it is very immediate and clear where the boundaries are. Somebody says something to you and then they go, don't, don't take it personally. You respond, I get to decide that. It's the whole thing of hitting you in the arm kind of concept of, look, I get to decide to take it personally or not. Don't, don't tell me how to take something. If you're going to send the paper airplane, I have a choice of how I'm going to catch it or if I let it fall. If you're going to throw the ball at me, I get to choose whether I want to catch it or I don't. It's all within my choice. So having that idea of I get to decide that puts you in the control seat every single time. Another that I like to use with don't take it personally is don't say it personally. Don't say it personally, or then say it differently. That one is a comeback that you can use with all kinds of different dismissive comments, but I like that specifically with "don't take it personally" because of it sounds like alliteration in a way. We say personally, differently. They both have the adverb -ly in them, and I feel that they're great at— it's a great little comeback to say, look, if you don't want me to take it personally, then say it differently. Say it again. Say it a different way. It's a very strong, straight-up front to say, look, if you don't want me to take something personally, then try again. Take it— say it differently. Okay, number 3 is don't be so sensitive. You heard that one. I know I have. Don't be so sensitive. And to be honest, I've definitely been one that said that too. And that wasn't fair. Say, don't be so sensitive. It is this idea that you go, look, don't— can you just let things go for a bit? I just said something, all right? Do you have to turn everything into a fight? You have to do this. There is a toxic element of that type of dialogue because yes, you want to control the reaction, that's understandable, but That is just part of the battle. That means you're not doing the work up front to think about the consequence of what you're saying or to think about how your words sound. You just expect them to go how you want them to go. You want everybody to react how you expect them to react in your head, and that's not fair. So when you say the phrase, "Don't be so sensitive," understand everybody is sensitive. Everybody is sensitive. It just depends on the topic. It depends on the context. It depends on the environment. So it's subjective to everybody. So let that be what it's going to be. But when they say, don't be so sensitive, one thing that you can do that I love to do is play off the word sense, S-E-N-S-E. Say sense. So they say, don't be so sensitive. No, I'm sensing X, Y, and Z. So if somebody were to say, hey, look, it's just a joke. Don't be so sensitive. You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing you're not that funny." You see what I mean? If somebody were to say an inappropriate comment and they go, "Don't, like I just said it, don't be so sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's appropriate to say out loud." You feel the difference? Here, you're not getting upset. You're not getting defensive. You are playing off of their words. "Oh, don't be sensitive? No, I'm sensing, I'm sensing X, Y, and Z." And that's going to put you in a much better position to stay steady rather than a weaker position. And the key to each one of these replies that I'm suggesting for you to try is that you cannot let yourself become defensive. I know that's easier said than done, but I want you to play it out. If you were to automatically, somebody says, don't be so sensitive. And you're like, sensitive? I'm not sensitive. What are you talking about? That's getting defensive, and all of a sudden you sound weaker and they sound stronger. Let me put it differently. They sound right and you sound wrong. You hear it? If you were to say, I'm not sensitive, what are you talking about? Me? I'm not sensitive. They sound stronger, you sound weaker. Instead, when you can stay exactly where you are and say, no, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's okay to say to each other.

Oof.

I mean, that is a verbal punch. I mean, that is such a stronger position to keep in that instance. So anytime that somebody says, don't take it personally, and you scoff at that, you get upset at that, you look weaker. If they were to say, don't be so sensitive, if they were to say anything else that is a dismissive comment like it was just a joke and you joke that, that, and you start to get, uh, you swell up about it and get defensive and start putting up your walls. The more it looks like you are exactly what they say you are, the more it looks like you're more sensitive, the more it looks like you're taking it literally, that you are everything that they say. So you have to make sure that you keep your breath calm Right? And I want you to stay exactly where you are. Try your best to not get defensive. It will really, really make a difference. The next time that someone tries to gaslight you, here's what I want you to do. Number 1, if they say, "I didn't say that," instead of chasing it and saying, "Yes, you did," or, "Then what did I say?" which allows them to manipulate the narrative, you're going to slowly respond, "That's what I heard." That's what I heard. It doesn't allow them to flip any message, and it keeps you in a position of strength. Number 2, if they try to personally attack you and say things like, you're crazy, you need help, you're going to calmly respond, I need someone who's helpful. I need someone who's helpful. What you're doing is saying, you're not the person that I need in this conversation, and you're not being part of the solution, and that's where I'm going. Number 3, if they say something like, "You're imagining things," you're going to say from a position of strength and assertiveness, "I do not imagine facts." Here's where you can get almost a little bit indignant. "I do not imagine facts." What you're saying is, "I know exactly what happened. I know what my facts are, and I'm not coming away from it." And before I continue, I want to make sure that I give this disclaimer. All right? I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. If you have legitimate questions about gaslighting, feel free to ask them. I'm going to tell you what I know it to be and what I've interacted with in my line of work in the legal field. Gaslighting is a term that can be thrown around way too easily. Okay, it's, it seems to be a very easy replacement for somebody who just simply disagrees with you that you don't really like. That's not it. So be careful with that term. Gaslighting is a much more serious issue. And the goal of it is to make you question your reality, to make you question who you are and how you make judgments and decisions about things. In a very simple example, let's say you and I are sitting across from each other and I start tapping my pen and then I stop. I start tapping my pen again. You go, I need you to stop. I go, what are you talking about? You were tapping your pen. I said, no, I'm not. No, I wasn't. I've never been tapping my pen. And I tap it a little bit later. And again, I denied. I said, you're You're just making things up. You're imagining things. Over time, that's a very elementary example, but in a bigger scheme of things, things happen that somebody is seeing and you're noticing, but they deny it. Deny that anything happened, and they start to make you feel bad about yourself. That you're wrong in your decision-making.

Wrong in your memory.

And then that you're just a person who feels very unsure about who they are in their reality. Make you question everything. To make you question the veracity, the truthfulness of things. And it's a way to manipulate you to form control. If people— if I were to say to you, everybody thinks you're crazy, and I hate to tell you this, but like all your friends, they hate you. Like nobody likes— nobody likes you. And I do that from a position of I'm the only one that can tell you this, I'm the one that really cares about you, when really all I'm doing is isolating you. Gaslighting is meant to question your reality. So anytime you get into an argument where you're thinking, I know, I know this, I know that that's not what happened, but this other person is totally denying it. It's a way of lying, but it's even more serious in that they're forming the lie to twist it to paint a picture of what they want you to see versus what the truth actually reveals. All right, and so that's the difference, and it's one of the most corrosive things I think can happen in an argument. So in my line of work, I often see people who attempt to gaslight in depositions under cross-examination because it's a very high-stress, high-conflict environment where I'm asking them questions. And often when somebody is caught in a lie or caught in a situation where it's not putting them in the best light, the very— the most cunning, the, the best liars will attempt to gaslight the situation. And this is what it is it sounds like. They will go, "Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's go back." That's a key phrase right there. "Let's go back." And they want to go to the very beginning of the timeline to them. And they want to go, "Okay, this said this, and he said this, and she said this." And they want to construct the narrative totally on their own. It's like they're rewriting history where I have the facts, I have the records, but yet they are starting to just lie. And you can tell they just drop little lies over time. To where at the end result, they expect that the only answer I could possibly have is that they're the one that is the most righteous. They're the one that is the most justified, that everything they've done is rational and reasonable, when really they are just digging a hole and asking me to fill it. This is what I mean. Often gaslighting is, the way I picture it is they dig holes and then kind of trick you, entice you into filling it. So they'll say some kind of lie, and then you get really defensive and go, that's not what happened, no, no, uh-uh. And they go, okay, what happened? And they're asking you to fill— just pick up a shovel and put the hole back in it. And then they go to another lie, and you go, no, that's not— no, what are you talking about? And you pick up your shovel and you start filling another hole. So all they do is just go around where you're losing control. Like a cat and a laser pointer, that they're holding the laser pointer all over the wall in the different areas of the room, and you're the cat just chasing it from point to point to point, not seeing that it's all about control. It's all about control. The more focused you are on constructing your own bridge, the more they're making yours fall apart without you even seeing it. So the key overarching message when it comes to gaslighting behavior is the less you say, the less they can control, the less they can do with it. That's why for them, bringing up the past is really just their playground, because they can construct the history of it in a way that puts them in the best spot and you at the most disadvantage. And so whenever you feel like, I'm just, I feel like I'm just chasing accuracy over miscommunication over inaccuracy and inaccuracy, It's gaslighting, manipulative behavior. And some of the biggest things to watch out for is talking about the past. And I can't tell you enough, when you get in those situations, you need to say less. You have very short sentences because it gives them less to play with. That's why when I give you these little phrases to use, they're not big explanations. They're short. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. I cannot imagine facts. Little things that once you say them, they can't really do anything with them. And your response when they go, "Oh," and they get all frustrated is just you repeat them. You say them again, and they really can't do anything, and they'll get frustrated. They'll leave. They'll change the subject. But just understand, that's what it is. It's manipulative behavior to have you under their control. And that's something I will not allow. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. Because number 1, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality. And we're going to talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number 2, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before You say what you need to say. Like, "Hey, I'm sorry, but I just feel like maybe—" We're going to talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number 3, stop justifying the nos. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turn somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence. And I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they throw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to.. And often that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life. The people that rank low in our priority list, but yet we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk.

Eliminate that concern.

When people play chess, it's expected that you're going to take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook, okay. They want to take a queen, that's different. Understand that there's going to be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life. Lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you had the choice of just letting it go, saying, that does not require any response from me. That is not worth my time. That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, Ask the question, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy? Because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Because I, I know my worth. And please understand, that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not going to be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm going to take it and set it aside. Personally, what I do in my, my own life is I have a wastebasket, all right? I have a trash bag right next to me in my mind. And if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them, I have to pick up that trash, that gross nasty thing that they said, and give it right back to them, I just take it and move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like at a computer or a laptop, you just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a— I don't know, what do they have, like the cold plunge or a pool that's filled with cold water? If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse when you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate, and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them. This sounds like, hey, um, you know, I've just been I just feel like I need to say this, I guess. It's— and maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but you ever heard that? Ever said that before? When you say, ah, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm sorry, but maybe, you know, I'm just feeling more like you are trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, When it comes to stating your needs, nobody's going to do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices. You don't say it at all or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, They don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of, "I'm gonna put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time." If it is something that is on your heart, and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it. Right here for you to be able to state your piece, assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're going to talk later in this podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying no 'because' after the end of it, using that word 'because' to justify it, and just saying no. For example, let's say you asked me a question and I just said, 'No.' No. Versus, 'No, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about, and, you know, I got to make sure that I take care of this, and it's just been really busy lately, and I've just been so stressed, you know.' And so Well, I have that other thing, you know. You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden, I've added 3 more sentences after the no, and I've slowly watered down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying no because.

It's just no.

And if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, all right, on this idea of just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation. Or if they there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal—

it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer.

You add in everything afterwards. No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z. You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say, and what I support, is no is a complete sentence.

What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words, where perhaps you are the secondary person, is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of— wrestle's the wrong word— but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a conversation? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant.

Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say.

You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat.

We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted.

I got it.

No, if I have any questions, I'll ask.

This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication.

The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving?

Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know Ed? It's great.

Yeah, you need to—

and they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less.

You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening.

They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are.

The real top dog.

Is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud.

Confidence is very quiet. You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator, of a leader, correct?

Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation.

Great leaders leave room for conversation.

So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything.

Insecure people feel like they have to prove, they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart.

Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever's happening.

Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on?

Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next?

What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward?

So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business, employees, supervisors, whoever it is. They're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

Bro, that's so good. You, by the way, you exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live. There's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, the fewer words they use, it's almost like someone watching on broadcasting.

What would you say are the biggest mistakes that people make when communicating with others?

Biggest mistakes that people make in interpersonal communication?

They're communicating to win. Not communicating to understand. Too often they feel like they have a point that they want to make, and you have to understand that point. You have to take and adopt that point, not tomorrow, now. And there's this urge of control of, I need you to lose to me, I need to win the argument, when really conversations, especially the difficult conversations and arguments, there's something to to unravel, to find the knot in the heart of the matter, rather than finding that everything about it is conflicting. Because as soon as you win an argument, you lose a lot more. I mean, you lose your credibility, you lose that connection, that relationship. When— if you and I are in a bad argument and I, I throw that cutting word at you so I can win just for that moment, well, I mean, what'd I do?

Can You won. Congratulations.

I've now won awkward silence. I've now won contempt. I've now— I mean, we still have to probably communicate with that person in some way. You have to work with them, live with them. And that feeling of, oh, I finally gave that good zinger, it lasts 10 seconds. The next day you're going, why'd I say that? And now you regret. Now you have to apologize. And so that win you thought you wanted isn't what you needed after all.

You're so right. One of my favorite videos of yours, you share with people how to best apologize, which, which sounds like it would be so self-explanatory, you know, something just like hardwired into, you know, our psyche, but there's actually like a method to it.

So how do we best apologize? Well, it's, it's more difficult than you think to do it in the moment. That's the hard part. And I break it down really into 3 bite-sized steps anybody can implement. And one is, it's the apology. This is the easier part of, "I'm sorry, I apologize." It's as simple as that. Two, it is telling them how they feel is reasonable and justified. For example, let's say the first part is, "Hey, I'm sorry that I said that." Second part is, "I understand how that could be upsetting," or, You're right to be upset by that. You're acknowledging how they're feeling because that's really the key is you have to kind of agree and acknowledge of, hey, how you feel is absolutely okay. It's not the, can you just get over this?

It's the acknowledgement part.

And the last, third, is showing some kind of future step. In other words, you're showing that, hey, we're going to switch this in the future. And it might be that I understand now that this is important important to you, or I'm, I'm going to make sure I don't bring up this topic again, or in the future I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. That's the only way you learn, because there's all— there's always those people, Max, that when you apologize and they apologize to you, you know it's— they're gonna do it again. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's— they don't really mean it. But when you have some kind of future plan of action, it's showing that there's kind of a completion of the circle.

Hmm. Yeah, and also I love how you break it down where, you know, it's important to apologize by saying I'm sorry I, as opposed to I'm sorry you, or sorry that.

I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, the words I'm sorry if. Hmm. So a lot of times they have people that I'm sorry if that upset you. To that you respond, it's not if, it's that. It's a lot of times they want to make it conditional. I'm sorry if I hurt you, as if they don't know that it did. Or, I'm sorry that you— that's a terrible way to apologize. If you always say, I'm sorry that you— I'm sorry that you were offended, you don't apologize for their feelings. Apologize for what you did, you know, apologize for what you said. So it's always, I'm sorry that I—

it's taking that extra step of accountability. What is it about your background as a lawyer that has given you you this— that is such a unique skill set?

Um, it's a little bit a mix of my own personality and law. Like, law school teaches you how to read the law, it doesn't teach you how to read people. And so I think some of that is just a natural inclination of my own personality. If I were to say what trial experience does as an attorney— meaning you're dealing with litigation, parties, courtrooms, hearings is that it allows you to see the conflict. It's very easy to kind of, instead of being right up in it, it's that power of detachment of I can see the communication happening while I'm talking to that person as if I'm watching it from a movie. And having that wherewithal helps you go, now this is how I need to tweak this, this is how I need to prepare this. Because when you're dealing with that difficult witness on the stand and you have 12 jurors who are watching, a judge, a bailiff, and court reporter, you're not just thinking of your next sentence. You have to think of how it looks in the entire picture. What's it going to make not just that person feel, as you would in regular communication, it's all the more important that it's how the others are going to feel about that interaction. So that's, that's where it comes into this power of seeing it from a third-person point of view.

Hmm, so how should we seek to make others feel about us when communicating? Is it all about just garnering likeness? Or like, how should we approach each interaction? Like, is it we want this person to like us, we want this person to respect us? I mean, maybe there are some people out there that appreciate being feared by others, which I think sounds actually quite pathologic. Yeah, but, but yeah, like, what is what should be the goal of— I mean, I guess it might differ context, you know, in different contexts, but like, yeah, what is the goal of like a healthy communication style?

Any healthy communication style is one where everybody is, for the most part, a balance. So there's not too much pressure from you and not too much pressure from me. It's not that you want everybody to like you. Now, that's an innate thing, I think, within all of us. Like, when you meet somebody new, meeting you for the first time today, there's always an intrinsic part of me is I want this person to like me, vice versa. And how you communicate, to me, the only way to do that is to be as authentic as possible. When somebody is trying to be somebody they're not, we sense it. Like, when somebody's on the stand The jurors have a sixth sense of if that person's being genuine or not. You can see it on social media. Somebody does a post and you go, I don't— there's something about this that feels off. It feels fake. They feel like they're trying to gain maybe sympathy, or maybe somebody is faking an emotion. Anytime you try to pour icing too much on somebody— if all I did was just compliment how great you were and how wonderful you are, it sounds good for a second, but then you go, ah, that's the more you the less I believe. Yeah. And there's this element of now something about this is a facade, surface of some sort. And what I teach and what I outline in the book is when you want to communicate truly, it's all about path of connection. Instead of always seeing things as a conflict, it's a way to connect to somebody. And you do that by one, saying things with control. I mean, you're controlling your— not just your own body, but acknowledging and being able to recognize the symptoms in other people. Two is to say things with confidence, to be able to assert yourself in ways that you can speak your needs more directly, because I think that's a crucial element of real communication, is when you are having that heart-to-heart, when I can share that and say things to you directly without feeling rude or that I'm taking advantage of you or manipulating the situation. And lastly, you say it to connect, meaning you handle that different difficult conversation with one that you feel like you really stood your ground on, or you feel like you represented yourself, rather than feeling like you always regretted that conversation. Because we've all had those difficult ones where after you got done, you go, 'God, that went terrible,' or, 'I don't feel like I represented myself well.' And that's, um, I think that's the way that you try to handle almost any conversation you can.

Yeah, and it speaks so much, I think, the times that we live in where, you know, we're seeing now that long-form conversations by way of podcasting has really supplanted in many ways legacy media, the media of the past, you know, couple of decades, right, century almost, you know, where the communication style was inherently inauthentic, you know, like local news reporters. I mean, they speak a certain way, and the way that they speak, right, is not how any other normal human being speaks.

Not even how they speak.

It's not even how they speak. Yeah, exactly.

I think you're right.

I, I believe that when COVID hit, it changed a lot because you saw people for who they were. You saw, um, people just posting from their phone, hair all messed up, just rolled out of bed, um, I mean, messy bun, the whole thing. They're just real. And slowly, I think we're transitioning more to wanting to see the real, not the polish, not the fake, the facade. They truly want to feel that. I mean, a lot of your most followed creators that are not celebrities, they don't have— I mean, if you see ones of somebody putting on their makeup, right? I mean, that's what a lot of women do, and it's real. Or guys that are just getting done with some kind of workout, or they're talking about kid stuff.

It's—

people are looking for the real. Same in communication.

They just want the real.

What about for people who struggle to find their authentic voice?

Yeah.

Do you lose respect faster when you can tell somebody's not respecting themselves or when somebody says something disrespectful to you?

When somebody says something disrespectful to you. If you don't respect yourself, that's a place for me to show you grace and kindness and patience. Like, yeah, I'll give you time for that. I understand. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that. This is what I'm thinking. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that, but I'm gonna let it go. You know you shouldn't have said it. Versus if they say something like much uglier that was only meant to hurt— again, it depends on context. But yeah, you can lose respect for them much faster when they choose harm over healing.

Do you think conflict can be settled at all through text messages or online messaging, or do you think with— when it comes to friendships, professional relationships, romantic relationships, it's always going to be best to hop on the phone, video chat, in-person meeting?

Yeah, I mean, they can be if you and the person are mature and intelligent and give each other the benefit of the doubt and not make them mountain out of a molehill. But if you're not, or if you don't know each other that well, always much wiser to just pick up the phone, let them hear your voice. That makes a big difference. I do it all the time. Text with my wife and, oof, I got a response that felt very cold. Anytime you get the K text, okay, oh well, okay, she— they're ready to destroy me, you know, my life is over, I just got a K, or an MK, an MK, like there's all different ways that we go, oh, that doesn't sound— that doesn't sound good. It depends on the person. Like my dad, my dad will just text okay to anything really you, you send him. I just know that's him, and I'll call him and he'll be like, oh, that's fantastic, but you know, the text you got. So it just depends on the person. But yeah, you're never going to go wrong getting to hear their voice. And besides, a lot of times, like, hearing your voice can make somebody's day. We were— we are meant to hear and connect and speak as humans. It's not good for humans not to talk to other humans. I was always— there's that show, I forgot what it's called. It's like they go up, they send them to Alaska for like, say, spend 100 days alone in Alaska. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And for— and at first they love it. They're so excited.

They build their shelter.

They're like, oh yes, I just, you know, got— I just harvested this rabbit and I'm doing all this. But by like 20 days, they're like, I haven't spoken to anybody. I miss my friends. I miss hearing people's voices. It's the loneliness that gets them. It's not their capability. I always just found that really interesting.

What are some subtle ways that people can sound more intelligent when they're speaking? I think sometimes people, when they'll say, when you'll hear people say, if somebody says like a lot or um, that they don't sound as intelligent. I say like a lot and um, and I'm like, I think I still am pretty smart, but I know I could get better. So what are your thoughts on just some subtle ways people can improve?

Yeah, you want to try to eliminate filler words the best you can, but it depends on context. So if you and I are just talking and I'm just being casual, say like and um as much as you want. But if you're in front of a presentation, a group of people, and you need to persuade, like and um become distractions. That's the problem. It's not that they're not comfortable, everybody uses them. It's that they're distractions. And that distraction is telling you, I'm not confident, I'm not knowledgeable, I'm nervous. And people start to pick up on those little bitty things. So all you need to do is just replace that filler with silence and you sound a thousand times more confident. Then it sounds intentional. But yeah, it doesn't mean that there's something bad about them. I mean, I use them in just normal everyday speech, but it's when you want to— when you're on a different level of conversation with somebody that it makes a difference. So if you're like my boss or something You see how I just said that? If you're like my boss, then if I need to approach you about a salary or whatever, I come up to you and I say, um, yeah, okay, so like, I am— okay, here's the thing, I like am really concerned about my— you've lost them. Yeah, you just wasted 12 seconds of them going, okay, whatever is coming out of your mouth, I'm already not wanting to hear it. Or if you say, "Hey, I hate to bother you." Great, you just told them, "What I'm about to do is bother you, so buckle in." You know, there's these just phrases and ways to talk that they aren't going to be the best foot forward if you want to come off with confidence.

So the best way is just to be direct, like if you were talking to your boss and you wanted a raise, saying something like, "Hey, I want to talk to you about something that's super important to me." I would even make it more specific.

"I'd like to talk to you about my salary. When's the best time we can visit?" Okay, yeah, just, just right out of the gate, and there's no question. Because you have to think of from their point of view, as a, as a, as somebody who's of the employer's side, what, what are they thinking? They don't want to be blindsided either. Uh, so why, why do you make it to where you wait until you're face to face for them to have any clue of what you're talking about? You need to be able to prep them for that conversation. You need to let them massage it, let them think about things. So the more specific, the better.

And you think it's better just to lead with that out of the gate? Sometimes people will put a buffer at the beginning, like, hey, hope you're doing well, hope you had a great weekend, hope that blah blah blah.

Yeah, you just think it's just be direct with it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, because it— they know that's not— that doesn't matter. They know it. It's the same with delivering bad news, right? If you're going to deliver bad news, same— delivering bad news is the same way delivering sensitive— I want to have a sensitive conversation with somebody. If you are— I need to deliver bad news and I say, hey, so how are you?

So how you been?

I know, I know. Yeah, you doing good? You feeling all right? Okay. Okay, well, I got some things to tell you. And I mean, they're just going— just making them twist off in the wind of going, okay, what's happening? What's going on here? Are you quitting? Are you not quitting? What's going on? Versus If you come out right out of the gate with bad news, they say, just go, I got bad news, and give it a 2-second beat. I need to let you go. Well, now they know. Great. But if you have need to have a sensitive conversation about something, it's much easier to say, hey, I need to talk to you about what you said at the party on Friday. When's a good time to talk? That'd be very specific. And then they know, then they're prepared. Instead of just the vague text, we need to talk, period. Nobody likes that. Nobody loves that text. We need to talk. Talk about what?

Yeah, be more specific.

And if the other person doesn't respond to that, do you give them any time window before— like, I mean, like, for instance, like, if it's a relationship situation, you're texting somebody like, hey, I'd like to speak with you about what you said to me on Friday, and they don't respond to you about it, or they beat around the bush or whatever. Do you follow up with them about it in a few days, a few, like a week? Like how does, how do you handle that?

Because sometimes that does happen. Yeah, well, it depends how much that person matters to you. But the fact that they don't want to interact should mean maybe you've made a mistake on how high up that person is on your priority list or how important you are to that person. Because often, you know, people, people will want you for what you give them. Not the other way around. And so if they're not willing to talk with you and reason with you and empathize with you and listen, they may not be your person. They just— they might just want to use you for whatever. I feel like if they're not one to engage, that is a big red flag of they don't value you as much as you think they do, which is a hard realization. How some people just might— they might miss the text, they might not get it, they might try and push it off. But understand, if it's important to you, it should be important to them.

If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you?

It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really want to portray confidence, there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big. You need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. That does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just you're sitting with me or with anybody and you come on super strong, that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation, or it's going, oh, this is too much. I'm just getting to know you. So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I want to portray confidence, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I'm focused right with you. My chin's up. I'm not looking down. My shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy.

Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations?

A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It's just overcompensating most of the time. If somebody is— you're wanting to project high energy, it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people, you're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it. You need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates.

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with the person that I was. I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering, I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms— fitness, my relationship to myself, my personal relationships, purpose, and so on— that, that allowed me to be able to, I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high value, high level of self-respect, et cetera, or is it just exposure therapy through practice through having conversations like this?

It's a comfort with yourself. Exposure helps just by repetition. You can only know so much. It has to have application, but it comes from within. I see this a lot of time at a jury trial. So, as a litigator, I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They need to portray some— maybe they need to portray sympathy, hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense about them. We can just tell. There's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, That person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is— I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it. You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are, but that typically draws away. It rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. Leave the window fronts for shopping, but don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down because after a while it's just going to be friction and that's going to have a rub and that's going to get worn and that's going to be hard to you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right? Where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do. And people can pick up on that right away. But I will say, I think on the opposite end of that, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell like they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but But for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And people who walk with and looking, you know, at the ground when they're walking, because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how, in your experience, like what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

It's a balance and that balance is specific to context, it's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors. There's this fear And it's a type of psychological threat of identity. And that makes you question, what if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment? And that causes you to have maybe not the weak hand shake, but it causes you to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always always needing to be the person to say something. Often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person, knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is: understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this understanding of, I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am. And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's always the reverse of what we originally think.

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