How To Make Small Talk Fun and Avoid Being Awkward

If there is one thing to unite this world, it is the hatred of small talk. It doesn't matter if it's a corporate company event or maybe it's just a weekend networking. It can be terrible. It can be downright scary at times. So how do you do it and how do you get better at it? Well, I got you. Today we're talking all about how to never struggle with small talk. Small talk. It's gross. So how are we going to fix that? Let me give you some hints. Number 1, instead of just asking, how's work? How's home? Those kind of questions just fall flat. They do nothing for you. They don't move the conversation at all. Instead, we're going to switch it to ask questions that are action-oriented. That means questions about the doing. So instead of how's work, how's home, how are you? You're gonna be asking questions like, what did y'all do this weekend? What do you have coming up? Getting things that they're excited about. What are you excited about today or tomorrow or this week? When you say, what are you doing or going? Those are action-oriented things and they're going to help push the conversation forward. Number 2, now what matters is how you do it. If you notice, I didn't say, do you have anything going on this weekend? Because how are you going to respond to that? You're going to respond to that as either a yes or a no. That's it. When you ask questions typically that are did or did you have fun today? Did you have a good day? You ask your kid when you pick them up from school, did you have a good day? You're really only giving them a few options to say yes or no. When you ask questions that are closed, that's what they're called, closed-ended questions, they only leave you hardly anywhere to go. It's just a yes or no question. Did you go to the store? Yes or no. Instead, you're going to be opening it up with asking and beginning the phrase or question with what. What you say, always say, what did y'all do this weekend? Or did, instead of did you have fun this weekend? You hear the difference between what did you do for fun this weekend versus did you have fun this weekend? One invites you to open up, the other closes it down and ends the discussion. So anytime that you can, I want you to ask an open-ended question. You do that by beginning with what or how or when, because it gets them to continue to talk. That's what you're after. And also, number 3, if you find that you just don't have that much to talk about, or it starts to go downhill and you're finding that each of your responses are getting shorter and shorter, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. People feel like there has to be a certain amount of time for it to count as small talk. No, if you just say hello to the person and you engage maybe in one little back and forth, that's small talk. You've done it. Congratulations. There's no medal. There's no reward. There's nobody counting and timing you to see how long you've been talking. Just if the conversation comes to a natural end, then just say, "Hey, great to talk to you," and politely end the conversation. Don't feel like you have to keep pushing and pushing to have some green check flag to say, "I have accomplished small talk." It's a lot less than you think. To make that happen. All right, now on top of making sure your questions are action-oriented, asking about the going, the doing, what they're excited about, what's up ahead, what's going on in the future, on top of making sure that you're asking open-ended questions that are leaving lots of space and begin with what, how, and when, and not did, that's going to close things off. On top of that, there is a formula that I'm going to teach you. Real quick, and it has always worked for me, and I know it can work for you too. This is how it goes. Number 1, you just pick a topic, any topic to talk to this person about. So let's say it's as boring as the weather. You could say, "And this weather was crazy. This weather can't make up its mind today." They're going to come up with something. They're going to say, "Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah, right. It's crazy." They're going to acknowledge you in some way. Perfect. You have now set the stage for you to give options. I like to think of it as a poll, um, and a P-O-L-L, meaning you're going to say, for example, in, in this example, you can say, so you, are you a fall person or you a winter person? You like it hot or you, you like it cold? Or maybe it can be summer or winter. Are you, you a fan of summer or do you like it cold? Would you rather be too hot or too cold? You're giving them options. That's the key. Options. Because options give us something to talk about rather than just forcing it down one chute and hoping that it works. So if I were to say, you know, are you— do you like the beach in summer or are you more like you like the mountains and the snow? They're going to give you one. They're going to give you one option. They're not going to just leave you hanging. Or they might just say, you know what, I really like spring. Spring's kind of my thing. It reminds me of blah, blah, blah. Well, then you get to interact and say, well, I totally hear you. Well, I happen to be a fall person because it makes me think of football and Thanksgiving. And here in America, we have Thanksgiving in November. And so that's what I really like. And then you get to kind of interact with them and say, well, what about you? And now you're getting to get to know them on just a little bit deeper level. Because here's, here's the trick on this formula is why it works for me at least, is that when you share something that is more personal about you, 99% of the time it then opens it up for the other person to share something a little bit more personal about them because they feel like, oh, well, you've shared something and now I'm going to share something. It's It's very— it creates kind of this mutual contract that's hidden in a way that if I share a little bit about me and what's personal to me, what I like, you're then going to feel a little bit more comfortable sharing more personal things about you. And that's what you're curating in that experience. You can take it wherever you want to go, but that's, that's the formula. It's that simple. Pick a topic, create options for them. Maybe you create 2 options, at least 2, maybe 3 or 4, and then you share something as to which one is your favorite and then ask someone about you. Even the question, what about you, continues to open things up in the dialogue and it never can really go wrong that way. I mean, they call this small talk, not big talk. It's just something short, compact that you left that, oh, okay, I learned a little bit more about this person. And it's something that you can knock out really in just an elevator ride. It's very quick, very easy. Let's say you're coming off into the elevator straight from some rain or whatever. You can easily just open it up talking about really the weather, the news, whatever you want. Try that. And because this episode is about small talk, I'm going to keep this episode small. So let's go ahead and get into my favorite part of the podcast, and that's where I get to read a question from a follower. Those that are part of my newsletter are able to ask me questions by email and I'm able to answer them. So if you're not part of the newsletter, you can sign up. The show notes are, or the link for it is down there in the show notes. All right, this one I have picked one out. This is, let me pull it up. This is Linda and she lives in Lubbock, Texas. Linda from Lubbock. I think there's a country song in there somewhere. I went to law school in Lubbock, so I'm very familiar with it. Linda says, Jefferson, I need some advice. Thank you so much for your clips. You're very welcome, Linda. I am, I work at a, I'm not gonna say where she works, but I have networking events and I tend to absolutely clam up where I stand in the corner and I'm not sure how to approach anyone or to get to a point where I feel comfortable talking to anyone. Do you have any advice? Linda, I'm sorry you're having trouble with that. And that's absolutely okay. Absolutely okay, because what makes you special is what makes you you. So just because you're not going around talking to every single person that is in the room, Linda, does not make you any less special or important or of less value. You find that people can talk a lot and say nothing at all. All right, so a lot of the times these networking events are really just more of a social dance in a way of just finding who's comfortable with who and who's friends and who's not. So I don't, I don't want you to overthink it, but I know that's not all that helpful to Linda. I'm going to say some things that I'm going to try to say some things that are. So when somebody is talking with you, one thing that you can do that I like to do is I will, um, it becomes subconscious, but if you want to find that you're more engaged with people and get kind of curious with people Physically, one thing that you can work on is I like to slowly cut— you just kind of cock your head a little bit to the side. That makes it look like you're much more interested in what they have to say rather than just like, I just want to talk to you. So it's— you don't want to have crazy eyes, you don't want to have it to where you feel like you're in front of their face. You're just kind of at a distance where your shoulders are relaxed, you feel relaxed. It helps me if you're holding something especially these networking events. Everybody kind of expects you to have something in your hand. It does not have to be a drink. It can be a snack. It could be any kind of refreshment that they have, but it keeps your hands busy. And that's, that's why I'm saying it, because it keeps your hands from having to like fiddle with themselves, or maybe you don't know what to do with them, so you kind of cross them. When you hold something, it keeps your stance open. And what I'm going to encourage you to do on top of that is to just barely slide your head to the, the side, either side, it doesn't matter, the left or the right. But it, it gives us posture of wanting to kind of be curious. And when you smile and you're asking questions and they start to respond, if you can just move your head just a little bit to the side, it's going to open them up as if, hey, you're being a little bit more curious about them to have more conversation. Another thing that's going to help Linda is understanding that don't go into these events thinking you have to talk to every single person. Like there's a win and a loss kind of thing. There's something to win and lose. That's not it. If you can just go in with the idea of just talking to one person— yeah, it's that basic— just one person and having a good conversation with them. I would rather trade 20 little small talks that mean nothing at all versus one awesome conversation with somebody that I want to talk to. Every time I'll trade that every single time. So when you're going into these types of scenarios, Linda, just it's going to help you if you already know who's going to be there and you make sure that you go talk to that person. If it's a friend, awesome. That's great. The biggest thing is that people just see you around. They see that you're having a good time. But if you're closed off in a corner, even if you're talking to somebody and you just have, you have a closed off posture, your arms are closed, your shoulders are hunched and you're kind of turned off to the group. They're going to find that a little bit more— it's going to signal at least that you're not wanting to talk to anybody. Maybe you don't, but you ask the question, how can we— how can you get better at that? Keep a much more open stance and, and go in trying to think of just one or two people that you want to make eye contact with in conversation with. It doesn't mean you have to plan out these conversations ahead of time. You certainly can. And what I would encourage you to do is take some of the things that I said at the beginning of this episode of asking, go up to somebody, say hi. I assume either it doesn't matter if you know them or not, and you can ask them the question of what, what was something exciting happened in your week? What's, what's, um, what's exciting in your life right now? See, it's just one question right there. What's exciting in your life right now? Easy. And you let them talk. And then once they share it, you share something that's going on and exciting in your life. You can't just ask a question and then expect not to have any kind of answer of your own. So it's that kind of that back and forth, that mutual contract that I talked about, Linda, that's going to make sure that you are keeping the ball rolling in the air. And it is much easier for you to end the conversation. This would be point 3 for you. If you feel that the conversation is starting to run low, get out fast. Say, hey, it's been great to talk to you. I'm gonna go grab something to eat or drink, whatever it is. I'm gonna run to go see whatever. It doesn't matter. The biggest thing is if you can end the conversation on a high note rather than forcing each other to talk when you really are kind of done talking to each other and then leave the conversation, well, now you kind of drained each other. So if you can, try to leave the conversation on a high note. So if they responded to your, what's most exciting in your world today? And they give you an awesome answer, you say, oh, that's fabulous. Ask maybe another question about it. Go, oh, that's fantastic. And if they don't ask anything of you, typically they should. I mean, they should. But if they don't, that's cool. We just say, well, that's awesome. Well, I'm super proud of you. That sounds really exciting. It was great to talk with you. And then you leave and now you've left on a high note. Now, Linda, you've made a good impression because all you do is talk about them and they're going to— they're really going to like that. So, Linda, those are just some quick takeaways. But at the end of the day, you just do what makes you special. All right? You do what makes you you. And if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. You stick with what feels good in your lane and what resonates and feels right to you. You don't like them and you definitely don't want them. But sometimes, no matter what you say, you find yourself getting sucked into them anyway. But with what I'm about to show you today, you're going to handle them like a pro. Today's episode is all about how to handle unwanted conversations. If you want to avoid an unwanted conversation, number 1, don't fight them. Because the more that you do, the more you're going to find yourself in one. Instead, just let it go by. You do that by making yourself sound, well, disinteresting. This is what I mean. When somebody's pushing an opinion onto you, any controversial topic, whether it's religion, politics, whatever, they're trying to push something onto you and you say, "Yeah, I don't know." Simple as that. "Yeah, I don't know." Or, "You know, I'm not sure." "Yeah, I'm not sure about that." You're finding ways to communicate to them of, if you're looking for a fight, you're not gonna find one here. Number 2, this one is the easiest, but it's the most critical. You are making them feel heard. It's just simply acknowledging their point, and it's very simple to do. This is what it sounds like. I agree that's an issue. Period. Somebody's wanting to get all worked up and they're telling something to you. All you need to respond is, yeah, I agree that's an issue. I agree that's an issue. You're not saying whether you agree with it or disagree with it. If anything, they just feel acknowledged and heard and they say to themselves, oh, okay, they understood and heard what I said. And number 3, if you need to be a little bit more direct, You need to tell them that you're not interested in this conversation. If they're not getting the point, here's the way I suggest to do that. You say, "I typically avoid this topic." The keyword is typically. Yeah, I typically avoid this topic, or I typically try not to talk about X, Y, and Z. The key here is when you say typically, you're communicating, "I've had this conversation before. It's not really stimulating to me anymore, so I just avoid this topic altogether." You're not saying that wrong.

You're not giving them a fight.

You're not giving them anything for them to bear their teeth on. You're just simply saying, I tend to avoid this. I typically don't do this. And I'm going to give you a disclaimer on this episode, particularly when it comes to political topics. I'm all in favor of educating yourself and making sure that you know about the issues out there. I think you should absolutely exercise your right to vote, no questions asked. That's a different question on whether or not somebody is allowed to force their opinion onto you and say whether they're right or wrong, or if you're supposed to push your opinion back and always have these discussions where, you know, it's just beating your head against a wall. If this person is open-minded and it's a discussion that you enjoy having, and people have political discussions all the time and there's no issues, but other people, it's not so much about change. They don't care about the change. They care about the competition. It's like a sport to them. It's like arguing over their favorite sports team— who's going to win, who's going to lose. Day to day, the ultimate consequence of the discussion and who wins makes no bearing, no change on their life. It's just something that they feel like a team on. So they want to have this discussion, uh, of intellect to intellect or just issue to issue, and they just want to talk it out. All kinds of different reasons why these kind of topics should or may come up in your life. The key is how do you balance them? The reason why I have number 1 be to pass it by is because it's that idea of don't attend every argument you're invited to. Just because somebody pushes their opinion onto you to talk about any controversial topic does not mean that it's an invitation for you to mandatorily give your opinion right back. Whenever you decide, "You know what? I want to push against you. Actually, I don't agree with that." You can disagree all you want. Just know you're walking right into the conversation. It's no longer an unwanted conversation. It is a desired conversation now that you're giving your opinion. If you want to avoid these, then you need to just let them pass by. I say disinterested or be disinteresting because in many ways you're taking all the oxygen out of the room and their fire can't burn. They have nothing to get upset about because you're not giving them anything to jump onto. You're finding ways to say, you know what, I don't know about that. You know what, that's a good question. I'm really not sure. I'm not sure. It's not that you're— that you don't have your own opinion. It's not that you're uneducated. It's just you're not in a mood to say, "I don't want to get in this conversation right now." And there's nothing wrong with that. When it comes to agreeing with them, understand nobody can make you agree to something you don't want to agree to. Nobody can force you to say something you don't want to say. But it's critical that these kind of people, when they're pushing these unwanted conversations, just feel heard. Often if they just feel acknowledged in some way, they're going to go away. Not only have you made yourself disinteresting, they know they're not going to get anywhere with this. They know that you're not going to give them that fight and that excitement that they're looking for. They just want to feel acknowledged. So when you can say things like we mentioned in number 2 of, "I agree, that's an issue. I hear you." Simple as that. "I hear you. I agree, that's an issue. I agree." That's all you have to say, even if you disagree with them. You're just making them feel heard. But if they continue to push and press on you to make you feel uncomfortable in some certain way, don't hesitate for one second to say, "I prefer," or, "I typically." You're talking about what you do in the past. "I prefer not to talk about X, Y, and Z." "I typically try to avoid topics about blah, blah, blah." You can make it even situational. "I typically avoid topic X." at dinner or at home or at work. You make it situational where you are in your environment. Simple as that. And if they continue to press the button, it's absolutely okay to say, I'm not going there, period. I'm not going there. You're saying, I'm not going into this conversation. I've given you plenty of lead-ups. I've given you signs that I'm not interested in this. That, that means I have to be explicit with you. I'm not interested in this conversation. I typically don't enjoy talking about topics of X, Y, and Z. This subject matter isn't for me. That subject isn't for me. You find ways to, if they're not gonna be taking the signs, be very direct with them to say, I have a boundary here. I'm not gonna be goaded into this. I'm not gonna be led into this conversation. I'm not going there. Now we're at the part that's one of my favorite parts, and that is I'm going to answer a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my weekly newsletter, I send one email once a week right to your inbox on a communication tip. And those that are on the newsletter can email me questions and I'm able to answer it here on the podcast. So I have my, my other phone here and this one that I picked is from Sammy. Sammy is in Florida. He says, hey Jefferson, uh, love your tips. I have an issue with work. There is a boss that I have who always likes to talk about whether it's gossip or politics, whatever it is, he's always wanting my input on it and I'd rather not give it. It's not that I don't have opinions, I'm just not that much of a social person and it makes me uncomfortable. Love to hear your thoughts on this. Sammy, I feel you, man. So anytime— let me give you an example of what's this making me think of in my own mind, my own, my own world is I'd have these conversations with my grandfather I'd go up every summer to see him, and it never failed. And this happened definitely in the last 5, 10 years or so, where I'd start to come talk to him, and every time he'd turn the conversation to politics or some issue that I did not want to talk about. It's not that he— he and I agreed on some things, we also disagreed on some things, but that's all he ever wanted to talk about. It just kind of consumed his mindset. This is what I'm going to encourage you to do, Sammy. Often the issue that you hear is not the real issue, all right? It's not the political issue that they want to talk about, or that, let's say, maybe he's oversharing, or there's gossip, there's something else. It's not that. It's an underlying layer. I'm going to continue on with my grandfather example. My grandfather was the type— is the type that, you know, he doesn't see a whole lot of people day to day. And so whenever I'm coming around and I'm giving him my full attention, I might be the first person he's really been able to talk to that day, and he wants to get out everything that's on his mind. There's also that element of he kind of wants to— there's people out there who want to feel impressive with their knowledge, regardless of what side of the fence anything is on. It doesn't mean it's political, not political, or religious, or any other controversial topic. They just want to share that they're knowledgeable about a given topic. So I'm going to encourage you to look behind the issue. Why does he continue to come to you with this, this boss or manager, Sammy? Why does he continue to come to you with this? Is it that he's just looking for other conversation with you? Maybe it's he just wants to have some kind of interaction with somebody, especially if it varies. If it's always the same issue every single time, that's a little bit different. But if he always comes to you with something different, that might be a suggestion that, well, he just wanted to interact with somebody. Like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, some people, it's not about who's right, who's wrong. It's just the competition. It's like a— it's a hobby for some people to find out, hey, can we just kind of feel alive for a second if we get up and angry about things, even though nothing in our world is going to change? So when that happens and you feel like you need to set some boundaries in this discussion, I would, number one, I'd encourage you to continue to indicate to him that you're not going to give him any kind of fight. You're not going to be on his side or against his side. You're just going to be disinterested. You're going to be disinteresting by saying things like, you know, "I don't know," you know, "I'm not sure about that," or "Man, if I had an opinion, I'd give one." Simple as that. I don't know enough about it. Or it's, hey, I agree this is an issue. Yeah, I agree, that's, that's definitely an issue. You're simply just acknowledging something that they said. Or if you need to be really, really, um, clear that this is not something you're interested in and you don't like this, it's okay to say, I'd prefer not to discuss this kind of stuff at work. Simple as that. You have to do things that sound authentic and genuine to you. What you can't do is start to engage. If you start to engage, or you begin to just agree and be a yes man to everything and go, yep, you're exactly right, you're exactly right, then he's going to continue to come to you with things. But if you continually show that you're not going to be that much fun, you're not going to be his person, Or you just find that these aren't the kind of topics that he's going to get with somewhere. If you were able to say, you know, I'd rather talk about you. That was the key of how I kind of had to fix my grandfather in our conversations. I had to tell him anytime he got into this rut, this continuous repeat of a hamster wheel conversation, I'd say, you know, I'd much rather hear about you. That was it. I'd rather hear about how you're doing. Nobody gets mad. Sammy, nobody gets upset if you want to move the conversation about them. Nobody's like, oh no, I don't want to talk about that. Everybody likes to talk about themselves. So when you just kindly say, genuinely say, I'd rather hear about you, how's everything going, we're good, how's everything, it shifts the mindset. And they're not gonna be like, oh, you, you change the topic. Everybody likes talking about themselves, especially if it's genuine, this, this social connection that you're creating. So that's the way I'd handle that, Sammy. Best of What about the subject of small talk, which we all—

I mean, I think most people hate small talk. I especially don't like small talk, but many people hate small talk.

Is there a skill at all to being a real master of small talk in your view? One would be don't ask questions that elicit a one-word response.

These are what they call closed-ended questions. You want these for cross-examination because on cross-examination, I just want yes or no questions.

Did you go to the store? Yes.

No. I want you on open— when I'm on direct examination, I want to open you up to discussion. I want you to talk more. So what you do is you take advantage of asking questions that open you up. Ask open-ended questions. These are questions that begin with how or what or when or where instead of like, did you go to the store? The same effect would be, did you have a good weekend? I'm only limiting you to a yes or no.

You talk about these conversational goals. Yeah, having a conversational goal in your small talk. You talk about that on page, I think, 40, 45, and 46 of this book.

Yeah.

So as a conversational goal, I'm a podcaster, I know I'm meeting you today, so I walk in here with a goal in mind that when I start speaking to you, I'm trying to get somewhere.

All right.

Is that what you mean by conversational goal?

Well, there's two separate sides. You want to have a conversational goal really for any conversation that you're going to have. Now, that's different if like you're in your hoodie and sweatpants with your friend watching a movie, like You don't have to have a conversational goal.

I'm saying if you're on one-on-one with somebody at work, it's not a bad idea if you go into their office, you have a goal for where's the conversation going to end, because otherwise it spins anxiety in the other person.

Like if somebody texts you and says, we need to talk, period, you're like— I automatically think it's the worst. It's like, oh, something's terrible. They were— we're breaking up.

Something's terrible.

Something's on fire. It's the worst because it's that anxiety, that trigger. Of the unknown. So instead, you always want to have a conversational goal, like the frame we talked about. You're telling them how you want the conversation to end.

Same kind of thing with small talk, but when it's much easier when you set a goal that's very low.

Like instead of saying, I want them to be so impressed with me, they don't know what to do. What's more impressive is when you're curious about the other person. I want to make sure that I ask at least 3 questions of this person and see what they have to say. That's a great goal.

I want to make sure that my goal is understanding where they're coming from just a little bit more.

So with small talk, people love to tell them how they got there.

People love to talk about themselves.

Everybody knows that.

One question to ask is how they got to the present moment.

For example, how did you learn that?

Where did you come across this?

How did you get in where you are today? And people are like, oh, well, let me kind of talk about myself for a minute. And people love it because they get to tell a story. Very different if I just said, hey, what'd you do this weekend? Oh, it was good. We just, you know, stayed home. That's not— there's no story element to that. There's nothing you can do with that. But if you get them to talk about a story of what led them to their present moment, much better. Another tip is you get to talk to them about things that are happening in the future rather than looking at the past. The past is really not that great for people because they feel like it's boring. They don't feel like the past is something that remarkable. But they typically find things that they will look forward to in the conversation. What are you looking forward to doing this weekend? What are you excited about? What's coming up for you? They'll find things that go kind of like, oh, well, I'm kind of excited about this, Y, and Z. But if you ask about what's happened in the past, they kind of have this like, ah, you know, I just, it's in the past. I didn't really do anything.

Now, we all know people that no matter the conversation, they always find a way to talk about themselves. And even if it's not about themselves, it always seems to be their voice that takes up the entire conversation. On today's episode, we're discussing how to handle people who dominate conversations. When it comes to somebody dominating a conversation, and not in the good way, as in they're not letting anybody else speak, they're the ones always having to hear their own voice, there's some things I need you to do. Number 1, interrupt them. You interrupt that person. Now, I know it doesn't sound like me to suggest that, but it's true. Because if they're not going to respect your time, then you have to do it. And there's a particular way I want you to do that. You interrupt them by using their name. You start low and then you go higher because people listen to their name. Their name gets their attention. It's the best word they can ever hear is their name. So if I were to hear you and I, or somebody was listening to me and I just said, hey Jefferson, Jefferson, Jefferson. You say it as often and as loud as you need to because it will eventually make them stop. Number 2, when they do stop, I want you to filter and pass it. Here's what I mean. Filter as in you're going to summarize what they just said very quickly and then pass it to somebody else to say, hey, I totally hear you. I understand what you're just saying. I'm curious to hear what Bob has to say or what Susie has to say, or you turn it on yourself. My thoughts are, and number 3, if they're still dominating the conversation, then you gotta put a time limit on it. You have to find a way to get out of there because you're not reaching them. So it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I got about 5 more minutes and then I need to get going. I need to do other things." But time limit is the only way to make sure that they're just going to continue to talk as long as they have an audience. And at the end of it, you just have to understand when somebody is dominating the conversation, it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. It's a monologue and you didn't buy a ticket to hear it. So if they're not going to respect the way conversation should happen. It's time that you respect yourself. And most of the time these kind of scenarios happen in meetings, Zoom meeting, in-person meeting. It doesn't matter. Where I see it most is in Zoom meetings because now after COVID with everything, a lot of the legal world has moved to Zoom where everything is virtual. And I'm sure that's the same way in your world. But what typically happens is that there is let's say a dozen people, 10 people, 8 people on the Zoom, and before you know it, it's just one person talking the entire time. It's one person who always has an opinion. It's one person who always has to feel like they're contributing to the conversation way more than their share. And they think truly inside themselves, they just don't have the emotional intelligence to realize that people aren't really— they're kind of getting tired of you talking the entire time. That filter isn't there for them. So they just, they keep talking the entire time. And in meetings especially, you have to make sure that person doesn't do that because it'll just kill your meeting. It'll ruin it. It will reduce productivity. It will get people aggravated. You know that feeling where all of a sudden they need to comment again and everybody kind of lets out a sigh like, "Oh, great, this person again. Oh geez, I wish we could just go." It'll absolutely ruin your, your meeting and the productivity and where you want to go. So when that kind of thing happens, you have to step out in front of it the first time. If you just let them drone on because you're afraid to offend them, you're afraid to come out in front and feel like that's being too direct, then you just have to be okay with a bad meeting because it's, it's not going to happen. Also understand that when people are dominating the conversation It's often a sense of insecurity. Like most things, we feel that the more we talk, the more intelligent we are, the more people will see how smart we are, how much we're trying to contribute. But often what I find in meetings is the person who speaks the most is typically the one that knows the least. It's the person who's the least out of touch, so they have to overcompensate and feel like everybody around them can have some kind of faith in them, so they They talk a whole lot, but often the more you say, it just shows the less that you know. So you're going to be careful about that in your next meeting. But here's the takeaway. When somebody is dominating and trying to control the conversation, you have to step out in front of it quickly, because if you don't, it can go south in a hurry. And I hear some of you already going, Jefferson, I don't feel comfortable interrupting this person. I don't feel comfortable interrupting them. They're going to get upset if I interrupt them. No, they're not. They're going to want to stop and listen. Maybe they might be a little bit frustrated, but your purpose is true. And here's how I'm going to help you with that. When you need to interrupt somebody, there's a difference between me just starting to share my thought. Let's say, for example, you're talking to me, telling me a story. I've heard this story a million times. There's a difference between me cutting in and going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, we, we all know, we all know, okay? And then just ignoring you and continue to go on with my thought. That's going to upset you, right? That's going to make you feel like, oh, they just interrupted me. They just cut me off. But if I were to use your name and say, Jefferson, I need to interrupt you, all of a sudden it doesn't feel like an interruption because I told you what it is. I told you that I'm interrupting you. And I know we've discussed this before on the podcast on how to handle interruptions. But it's the same true for people who dominate conversations. If I tell you that I'm interrupting you, if I say, "I know I'm interrupting," or, "I need to interrupt you," nobody takes offense to it because here you're acknowledging what you're doing. It's the acknowledgment of the formality. So, yes, I understand. Typically, I should not be interrupting. I should be hearing you out. And in this case, you have to because they're not respecting the formality of I say something, then you say something. I say something, you say something. It's just all about them. So if you think about it in a pie chart, there's these people who control the conversation to hear their own voice a lot of ways, and they're totally fine with taking up 98% of the pie and leaving 2% to you, really for that 2% to tell them how great they are, how smart they are. We're not going to be doing that here. It's as simple as using their name because it's going to get their attention. They're going to perk up to that. So when you say, hey, Jefferson, they're it's going to automatically turn to you. They're going to look at you, especially the more you raise your voice in that way. But you're going to do it kind. You're not going to do it in a way that is rough or rude or just exasperated. That's going to make it go further south. Here, you are pulling them back in, in a way, nudging them back in to how a conversation is supposed to go, especially one that you're going to be involved in. Because understand, what you're doing here is also informing them, hey, if you want to have a conversation with me, This is how this is going to go. I'm going to say something, you're going to say something, and we're going to acknowledge each other's points. I'm not here— I didn't buy a ticket to listen to the show where I just sit and you get to say everything and I have to be quiet. That's not it. Here you are showing them your manual. If you want to communicate with me, this is how you're going to do it. So when you use their name, it gets their attention. And it's an easy way if you feel like you're being too direct to tell them I need to interrupt you. Mind, this is a big key. This is a big key point of this. Mind you, do not apologize for that. Look at me. Listen to me. Don't apologize. Don't say, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. You are not sorry for it. You are not sorry for it. Here, you need to do it. It is them that has put you in this position. So you're not going to apologize for having a boundary. You're not going to apologize for needing to take a stance and say, this, this can't continue. Cool. So you're not going to say, I'm sorry. It is, I need to interrupt you. That is as simple as that. Or I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting you. Both of those will even allow them to go, I'm listening. It'll totally turn it to you, and they're not going to take offense to it because you're acknowledging it in the moment. And one point I want to make very clear is that once you interrupt them and filter and pass it, part of that is the acknowledgement. It is key that when you need to take the conversation away from somebody who is dominating and monopolizing the conversation, you acknowledge what they have said, summarize it very briefly, even if just one sentence, because otherwise they're going to feel totally shut down and dismissed, and it's going to lead to negative things. I don't want that for you. You can simply cure that by summarizing what they just said. For example, let's assume that you are talking to me on a given topic and I interrupt you. Let's say your name's Jefferson. Weird name. Such a lame name. And I need to interrupt you, and I just go, hey, Jefferson, Hey Jefferson, and then all of a sudden I just start cut off my thought and I go, hey Jefferson, I want to hear what Lauren has to say about this. You hear how all of a sudden I just felt— you feel cut off from me? If I were to say, hey Jefferson, I want to— yeah, I want to hear what Greg has to say, you're gonna feel cut off immediately. Instead, if I said, hey Jefferson, I hear you, I agree that this point and that point and that point, or I hear you that this is something that is frustrating you. I don't disagree. I'd like to hear what so-and-so has to say on this point. Here, I just summarize it. I say, thank you for what you shared. Again, I'm distilling it to the important point, and then I pass it to somebody else. Or you can pass it to yourself easily. It's just as simple as saying, hey Jefferson, I hear your point. I'm not saying I agree with it, My thought here is blah blah blah. You're just taking it because you've acknowledged what they've said, and then now you're passing it on to the next one because they're not sharing the ball, right? They're hogging the ball the entire time. So it's on you to kind of kindly take it from their hands and pass it on to continue playing the game. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen. I also want to make sure and add disclaimer in here that people who monopolize conversations and and dominate them. It's not necessarily on purpose and goes back to what I originally said is it's an insecurity. Bottom line, it's an insecurity type thing that they don't realize how much they're talking. I find in my world that it is people who get older in life that don't realize how much they're talking. It is also the plain sense of let's just, let's, let's approach that situation that situation with some grace, and that you may be the only person they've spoken to. You might be, if it's somebody who's older and they haven't seen anybody today, and you're now the one that's gonna be talking to them, they might have a week's worth of information of stories and things that they just want to share because in that moment they have a reason for feeling like they're alive and valuable and important, and you're gonna be the one, the focus in that. If that's the kind of situation, then you just need to be patient. It's that moment where instead of going, "Ah, this is such a waste of time," being reflective is saying, "I need to slow down a little bit. What's here for me?" So understand there's always two sides of the same coin, especially for even people that are neurodivergent. They have ADHD. Maybe they have other kinds of issues that make it difficult in the way their brain functions to not stop talking. And that's nothing— that does not mean that it's a weakness. It just means it's something to learn and to deal with differently. And that's my whole point of this episode. It's not that people who dominate conversations are evil and terrible. It is simply that it happens naturally with everybody, including yourself. And that just means it's something to handle and react to and respond to in a very productive and efficient way. Here's a hard truth. If you don't advocate for yourself, nobody will. And if you don't assert your needs, let's face it, you will get walked over every single time. At the end of today's episode, you're not going to have to worry about it. We're talking how to stand up for yourself. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. Because number 1, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality. And we're going to talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number 2, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before you say what you need to say, like, hey, I'm sorry, but I just feel like maybe— we're going to talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number 3, Stop justifying the nos. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turn somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence, and I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they throw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to. And often that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life. The people that, that rank low in our priority list, but yet we, we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk. Eliminate that concern. When people play chess, it's expected that you're going to take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook, Okay, they want to take a queen. That's different. Understand that there's going to be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life. Lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The, the feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you had the choice of just letting it go, saying, that does not require any response from me, that is not worth my time. That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, ask the question, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy, because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Because I, I know my worth. And please understand, that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not gonna be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm gonna take it and set it aside. Personally, what I do in my own life is I have a wastebasket, all right? I have a trash bag right next to me in my mind. And if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them, I have to pick up that trash, that gross nasty thing that they said, and give it right back to them, I just take it and I move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like at a computer or a laptop, you just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a— I don't know, what do they have, like the cold plunge? Or a pool that's filled with cold water. If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse. When you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them. This sounds like, "Hey, you know, I've just been— I just feel like I need to say this, I guess. It's— and maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but—" Ever heard that? Ever said that before? When you say, "Ah, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm sorry, but maybe, you know—" I'm just feeling more like you are trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, when it comes to stating your needs, nobody's going to do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices: you don't say it at all, or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, they don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of, I'm going to put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not going to feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not going to feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time. If it is something that is on your heart and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it right here for you to be able to state your peace, assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're going to talk later in this podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying no because after the end of it, using that word because to justify it, and just saying no. For example, let's say you ask me a question and I just said, "No." No. Versus, "No, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about and, you know, I got to make sure that I take care of this and it's just been really busy lately and I've just been so stressed, you know, and so, well, I have that other thing, you know." You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden, I've added 3 more sentences after the "no" and I've slowly water down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying no because. It's just no. And if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, all right, on this idea of Just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation, or if there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal— it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer. You add in everything afterwards. No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z. You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say and what I support is no is a complete sentence.

How do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should? The biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. There's a lot of people that you— if you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are going to get tired. Like, you just— some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't. There are some people that if you really feel like an injustice— like, for me, a driving principle is justice. If I feel like something is unjust, I'm much more, I guess it's unjust, then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, no, no, this is not, this isn't cool, that's not fair, this isn't equal, that you don't talk, you don't treat people that way. But if you, if you're the, the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen nearly as much. It's, it's the walk quietly with a big stick kind of mentality. When you want to stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I can choose to say nothing, and a lot of times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're going to say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang, oh, it's one of the most powerful things you can do. Is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me. And then they just don't do it as much. You're telling them it's not gonna be fun for you if you go down this road with me. Interesting. Where did you learn that? A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book, I talk about my, I'm the oldest of 4. I'm a 5th generation trial attorney. So I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood. Where a wonderful childhood where I get picked up from school, like get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of 4, had a lot of experience just resolving conflict, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister and then my 2 younger brothers. And then a lot of it is, you'd think it was law school, but it's not. You have trials. But it's— trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's— let's say you're my witness, and let's say you're opposing, you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's going to be ready to jump in and object to every question I have. You have a judge that's going to rule on the evidence of if my question passes. You have bailiff, court reporter, and then there's probably 12 people if we're in district court in the state of Texas that are going to all be listening to everything that I do. And it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it. So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're gonna think, oh, that's bad for his case. If you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad, like, oh, that's not true. They're gonna know, oh, this is actually bad for his case. It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it, there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing. Wow. So trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker. Oh, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play the hands that you're dealt. So let's put it at that. You know, I can't, I can't choose better facts. I can't choose the law that I'm wanting to use. And the same way, it's not really winning. I mean, you might have a better hand than me, but it's just how I play it. Yeah, and can I give it away or not? Yeah. Fascinating. Well, and the thing is, people think that trial is this whole gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows everybody's facts before you go in. None of it's a surprise. None of it. I know all your bad facts. You know all of my bad facts. We all know each other's bruises. It's just who can, who can play the fiddle better. And, uh, it's, it's a weird situation in which when I ask you a question, I'm also wanting the jury to hear what you say and how that compares with the facts that I have. So a lot of the tools that I teach about framing conversations, it's the same way of how I would frame a question, or how I give a big roadmap, or how I would kind of make you say what I want you to say, or how I have an open or closed-ended question. It's all kind of the same principles. Interesting. Do you use the principles with your wife too? No. She call you? She call you out? She's also an attorney. Oh, yeah. We went to law school together. Oh, oh my goodness. Yeah. And she knows immediately if I'm trying— she'd say, don't cross-examine me.

Like, it's very, very quick.

She's very quick to say that. And so it's— there's a certain style of cross-examination where if you start to just steam them out, it's like, nope, you can't. What would that sound like? Use short little statements. So typically in TV, you see the wrong stuff. TV is all so fake when it comes to questions. Isn't it true whether, you know, isn't true on or about December 21st, 2024, you were at the Buc-ee's in Bastrop, Texas? Yes or no? You're never going to get that, that kind of answer from somebody. And you've seen it like at the Johnny Depp trial, like people ask really bad questions, really the best cross-examination aren't questions. They're very short statements. And so maybe I'm wanting to draw out that the car that you saw that weekend was red. And so I'd say something like, you were out that weekend? You'd say, yeah. You see, I didn't say yes or no. I'd say, you were out that weekend? Yeah. Saw a car? Yeah. Car was red? And then sometimes they go, well, I don't know. I really don't. And they start going on and on and on. So the witness is trying to run on you, trying to make you look bad, and all you do is just come back, red. The car was red. Yeah. So it's really easy to do that in, let's say, at the kitchen table if you're like wanting to make a point, but that'll get you in trouble. Yeah, if your wife's an attorney. Yeah, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't allow any of that. She catches that real quick. Yeah, my husband does the opposite. He does the CIA method, which is often saying things like, Oh, like I'll be like, hey, you know, did you do X, Y, and Z? And he'll be like, X, Y, and Z? And then I'll be like, yeah, you know, when I said that we were gonna do this. And eventually he'll just keep asking the question back like, oh, did I do that? And finally I'll either just get annoyed and walk away 'cause I don't think he's understanding me. And it works beautifully. Like the mirroring? Yeah, exactly. Except now that I'm onto it. He got me for years with that. Years? Yeah, I think I was slow on the uptick. It was like, nevermind. That's funny. I'm just, I'm just not gonna get engaged.

If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you?

It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really want to portray confidence there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big. You need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. That does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just— you're sitting with me or with anybody and you come on super strong, that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation. Or it's going, oh, this is too much. I'm just getting to know you. So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I want to portray confidence, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I'm focused right with you. My chin's up. I'm not looking down. My shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy.

Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations?

A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It's just overcompensating most of the time. If somebody is— you're wanting to project high energy, it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people, you're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it, you need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates.

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with the person that I was. I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering, I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms— fitness, my relationship to myself, my personal relationships. Purpose and so on, that, that allowed me to be able to, I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high value, you know, high level of self-respect, etc.? Or is it just exposure therapy through practice, through having conversations like this?

It's a comfort with yourself. Exposure helps just by repetition. You can only know so much. It has to have application, but it comes from within. I see this a lot of time at a jury trial. So as a litigator, I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They want to need to portray Some maybe they need to portray sympathy, hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense about them. We can just tell. There's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, that person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is— I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it. You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are, but that typically draws away. It rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. Leave the window fronts for shopping, but don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality because eventually, it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down. Because after a while, it's just going to be friction, and, and that's going to have a rub, and that's going to get worn, and that's going to be hard to— you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right, where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do. And people can pick up on that right away. But I will say I think on the opposite end of that, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And people who walk with and looking at the ground when they're walking because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how— in your experience, like, what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person, which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

It's a balance, and that balance is specific to context. It's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors. There's this fear, and it's a type of psychological threat of identity, and that makes you question, what if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment? And that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake, but it causes you to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always needing to be the person to say something, often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person, knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this, this understanding of I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am. And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's, it's, it's always the reverse of what we originally think.

What are some things that we can say or even some actions that we can do to make people trust us more and maybe improve our credibility?

This could be how maybe what— how you do as a lawyer in a professional setting, or maybe even like in a personal setting. How do we get people to trust us more? That's a hard question.

I would say to want to be trusted more, you have to create a safe space for people to come into. Like, when you think about walking into a home, you can tell— or a room— you can tell pretty quickly if you walk into a room and feel, okay, I'm, I'm safe. You walk into a friend's house, you feel more comfortable. You walk into a stranger's house, you're much more stiff and rigid. You're just not as comfortable and their space because you don't know if it's safe yet. And I use safe in a way to say you don't feel like you can relax. You have all your systems kind of watching out for anything. What I like to do to create that safe space is to acknowledge that they came to me and that they're talking to me and that I show positivity in that. For example, with kids, All right, you, especially when they get older in years, you want them to feel like they can trust you with anything, right? That they're gonna— they're not gonna hide stuff from you. They're not gonna go to somebody else to share things with. You want to be their person. Same— maybe not just kids, maybe it's co-workers, maybe it's your employees. Whatever it is, you want to feel like you're a safe place. First step in that is to make them feel like their presence is invited, that you feel like I just— you're saying, I acknowledge that you had choices with who you shared this information with. I'm glad that you came to me. So an easy way to say that is, I'm glad that you came to me with this. I'm glad you're talking to me about this. So it's, I'm glad you are talking to me. Just that period alone is going to show it. Okay. Confirm in their mind what means more. You come to me with bad news and all of a sudden I just flip out. I start yelling at you. How could you? What are you talking about? You did this. That's not going to create trust because that doesn't create a safe space, right? Much rather to start with a big, I'm really glad you came to me with this. Now, now you feel safe. Now you feel a lot more at ease. Thank you for telling me. I'm glad you came to me. Thank you for telling me. And then when they get to share that with you, instead of trying to correct them, it's appreciating their perspective. Then, then get to share what your advice is or what you're feeling. But if you really want to create trust, you have to indicate to them that they are okay and they are safe. Something—

another example of this that I've heard you mention is it's like you had a case once where someone was like trash-talking all lawyers and they were kind of bringing you into the mix and your response was, you know what, maybe you're right.

And I feel like that, that statement itself builds trust too, right?

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Because I'm not disagreeing with them and they're hearing the, the word right. So there's a, there's concepts of, in psychology I know, of being flexible. So if you're being too loose in the way you think you open the door for chaos. If you're really closed-minded, keep everything really tight, well then you can't really let anybody in, you can't let anybody out. So if you stay flexible in this kind of, well, maybe so mindset of, uh, we'll see mindset, we'll see, maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong, who knows. You keep that kind of mindset, you're staying flexible. And in that particular position, when they're saying, you know, attorneys are the worst thing ever. All right, well, I could choose to get defensive, or I can choose to be flexible and say, well, maybe you're right. And what are they going to say? I mean, it totally like defangs the whole situation. I've shown some humility of saying, well, that's— maybe you're— maybe there's some truth to that. And there is. In any profession, in any— you always consider the possibility that I could be wrong at any given point. And to say that they're just used— for them to hear the word right is going to calm them immediately. Versus I could say, you're wrong, you're so wrong. They're just going to prickle. They're going to bristle right there. I don't lose anything at all by saying, well, yeah, maybe you're right. What would you say?

Why is it so important that people get communication right? Like, what do you think impact it will have on people's lives? Like, for the people that are listening, why should they care so much about their communication?

Communication is the thing that connects everything that has happened and will happen. It's impossible not to communicate unless you're not alive. If there's communication, that's one thing. But when you don't communicate, even when there's silence, you're still communicating something. If I don't respond to your text in 5 minutes, that says something. If I don't respond to your text in 5 days— It means you don't like me at all. It says something else. That's true. So, like in a silence, in a pause, it might be the absence of words, but it's not the absence of communication. Everything that's led you to this point has happened from your words. In many ways, it is very true that What you say is who you are, Christa. I mean, it's just, it's just what it is. It's for the vast majority of your life, people will only experience you based on what comes out of your mouth, what you say. Like, if somebody says something and you just meet them for the first time and they leave, right away you're gonna go, I like that person. What you meant is they said nice things. Or if you don't like somebody's attitude and they're rude, you're not going to like that person. So it's really the power of your words, or even go with conflict, like how you led to who you found now. Most likely, if you had ex-boyfriend, ex-husband, or whatever, there was a conflict, and how that conflict was handled led to the next event. How you left that job because there was a conflict and you got let go, or you left, led you to the next thing. So it's communication, it is, um, in everything that you do.

With relationships, if we were to speak on that, what I found in my relationships is like, yeah, it's so interesting you said it was so much the unsaid because it was so much more unsaid than said. And it was crazy to witness because I think my parents would do this too. My parents got divorced. They did their best, but it's like they would be having whole dialogues in their heads. That would not be verbalized into words or communicated into words. What's happening there when people, even with their bosses or friends, where it's just the mind is really going and the mind has a lot to say, but they're unable to bring it to words?

Well, a lot of the problem is they're waiting till they're talking to figure out what they want to say. So they haven't done the work ahead of time. All they've done is just expected to go how it's gone in their head. How they— he said it in the shower, how they said it. I mean, they make great points when they're driving in their car, but when it comes to meeting that person face to face, they can't, they can't do anything because they haven't, they haven't laid that groundwork. Or let's say you and I come home after a long day. You've been thinking about something you need to talk to me about, and you've been thinking about it for 8 hours. 8 hours you've been stewing on it, locked into my job.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, you know everything about what you want to about. Meanwhile, I get home and you're like, hey, can I talk to you for a second? Uh, and then you just dump 8 hours worth of thought and emotion that's important to you. I'm catching a cold. Yeah, I'm not ready. Where do you— where is this coming from? And all of a sudden you expect me to carry the same importance and weight to it as you have for the last 8 hours when I'm, I, I'm not ready for this. And so you, you have 100% of a subject you want to talk about when I have 20% of the bandwidth. It's just gonna, it's gonna go south every time.

How would you as a couple then, so because that's a situation that happens with people, what would you say? So let's talk about for her. Yeah, you know, if you are stewing all day, what's the strategy that she can take? And what is the strategy that the man, if we're saying this is a man, can take in that situation?

Yeah, one, you want, always want to make sure you have dedicated time for the important conversations. I'm not talking about like just, hey, how was your day? It was good. The little bitty things, that's, that's fine. The big major conversations need to have uninterrupted, dedicated time that you have set aside for it. Even if that person, you'll have 5 minutes to talk about it in that time frame, it's still better to push it off for another 5 minutes just so you both can ready yourself for what you're going to talk about. Hey, when you get about 10 minutes here in a little bit, just let me know. It's much better to prepare them. So if you're the— let's say from the woman's standpoint, uh, in our scenario, you want to use a frame. And how I teach frames is that you tell them what you want to talk about, how you want to feel after the conversation is over. And that's the big part, telling them how you want to feel after the conversation. And through you get their buy-in to it. And it sounds like this. Let's say, uh, We get home and you've already texted me in the day, hey, can we spend 10 minutes for a conversation that I want to talk about later? Perfect. So we're in that time. You're going to start with, hey, Jefferson, I'd like to talk with you about something you said.

You said the name, so that means trouble.

Yeah, well, you know what I mean. Let's just say, hey babe, hey babe, hey babe, babe, whatever it is. Uh, hey love, and I'd like to talk with you about you know, what happened last night, and I want to walk away with the conversation. I want to walk away from the conversation, or I want to walk away with— I want to end the conversation feeling like X, Y, and Z. So it could be as simple as even, I'm not asking you to fix anything, I just need you to hear me out, or I just want to say this, I just need to feel understood, I don't need you to do anything with it. Now, telling me that ahead of time Super helpful. Otherwise, I'm looking how to fix it the entire time. Totally. Then the third step is you're just getting their buy-in. And that sounds as simple as, that's not good, can we do that? Is that— are you willing to do that?

And you need a yes before you start.

Yeah, because now it's like I've signed an invisible contract. Now I'm in it with you, and I don't want to break my word because I've agreed to it. The key is, for both people, you stay within that subject. If you don't If you break out of that and you go, you know what, actually, and you want to bring up 5 other different things, well, now you've busted out your frame. Now everything can cut loose. Instead, you want to try and dial in just on that one issue. For the guy's perspective, one big part of it is conversations go south when somebody forces you to have a conversation you're not ready for. So if I need to say, I can tell I'm not ready for this, I do want to talk. About this, I can tell right now I'm not ready for a good conversation. I'm not ready for this conversation. I wanna talk about it. Let me, can we do it after dinner? Give me some time. You have to communicate that you're not ready. 'Cause when people say, hey, you have 5 minutes, what they really mean is, hey, do you have about 45 minutes for me to tell you a story that could really waste your time, means nothing. Like if somebody says, hey, you got a second, it depends. Like, do you have a second to what, tell me you like my shoes? Or yeah, are you about to just come in and wreck my entire day? Can you just let me know? Can we put—

Yeah, honestly, let's do the scale.

Yeah, I'm going to send you this feedback form so you can go ahead and let me know how that's going to go.

I really like the— I really like that frame for women to think about, especially with men, because a lot of men are going to be, what can I fix? What can I do? Right. So expressing the feeling that you're wanting to have. And I also think it's helpful because it gives women the clarity to really think about it. It's like, okay, how do I want to feel? Because I think if you're in the reactive mode of frustration or anger, you could be like, I want to feel fine. Okay. Yeah.

You want to get after it. Yeah. I want to square up. Yeah.

I want to punch you in the face. So it's like, okay, how can I regulate in my system? Like, coming out of the fight or flight. And I think this is a lot of— I want to talk about that too, like the relationship to the body. Yes. Because so much of it is you getting triggered and then you losing the plot or losing— you know what I mean? Like this, where it's like— because I was even thinking For a lot of previous relationships I was in, if I was like, hey, do you have like 10 minutes? It would be like fucking terrifying. And it was probably me creating the situation that made the terror. But like, I think a lot of people get really nervous with like the request for time because they think they're in trouble. Do you find that?

Oh yeah, it's— let me tell you why that happens. All right, because it is telling them that there is something to fear that is unknown. One of the biggest triggers is the fear of the unknown. Now, Let's say you and I are working and I text you, I need to talk to you, period. Or worse, we need to talk, period. You're going to think you want to call me immediately. What happened? What's going on?

Oh my gosh, something.

I mean, it is. Or, oh my, it's over. He hates me. Everything's gone.

I've done something wrong.

It's all fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. And that anxiety takes over. That's what happens. And that's why you're saying it feels terrifying. For that other person, because constantly we're looking to see that fight or flight. Is there a bear in the bush? Like, what's gonna come out to get me? So our body is already doing that. What I talk about in my book is like these 3 main pillars of say it with control, say it with confidence, say it to connect. And part of saying it with control is what you just lined out is with your body. So our body is very much tied to how we communicate. When you hear somebody yell, what they're trying to do is scare you away. It's the fight or flight. When somebody says a hurtful word or a word that is cutting, it's 'cause they're trying to physically make you go away. That it's a threat. Maybe you said something that undermined me and my body goes, hey, Jefferson, I don't, hey, so I didn't like that, that tone that I heard.

Hey, so I didn't like that.

And all of a sudden I'm gonna get defensive 'cause my body's saying, I don't like this threat. I feel triggered by this. And there's lots of different ways to feel triggered. Knowing your triggers is very important. That's a good one. But when that happens, your body naturally goes into it. Like right at that moment between a conversation and an argument, like when there's just enough friction that it starts to ignite and things rub you the wrong way, it kind of just takes over. That's why your pupils will dilate. So you're focused in, your nostrils will flare to like get you more oxygen.

You feel like you're nervous. You shake.

Yeah. You get tense because your body's just physically ready to go. Or on the fight or flight, you're wanting to hang up the phone. You want to leave the room. You want to get out of here. Who— how many times have you said, I can't do this? I'm not gonna do this right now. And you're ready to go. It is your fight or flight saying, get out of there. Yeah.

And that's it. Yeah, exactly.

And it's just— it's— yeah, your communication is tied to how your body feels. And so you have to there are steps that you can use to regulate yourself so that does not happen.

Yeah, I realized how detrimental that was in past relationships, was my, I'm done. I'm so done. Yeah, I'm done.

I can't.

We're done.

Yeah, I literally cannot.

After 10 years of that, it's like, please, fucking, I don't believe you anymore. Something I want to just talk about, and then I want to talk more about the control. That was the 3. Was related to the first part where we were talking about that conversation between a man and woman. Say she has something she wants to talk about, preparing him to get home. I think something that's so important that you mentioned that I think is a game changer for relationships, and so I think women need to pay attention to do, is not loading everything on. So it's like, we're going to talk about one thing. Oh yeah. And you have to only talk about one thing. You can't— this is me talking to my previous self— you can't be like, okay, and then this feels good, and then I'm gonna talk about this thing and this thing and this thing. Like focusing on the one thing is such an important aspect of communication relationships. Yes.

I like to say if you're talking about everything, you're talking about nothing. So true. And put it even in a business context. Yeah, you have that meeting and your boss says, all right, everybody, we got a lot to talk about. And you already know right away, you're rolling your eyes going, this could have been an email. They have— when you're talking about too many things, nobody feels like it was a good productive meeting. Same thing in the intimate conversation when you're just lobbying issue after issue after issue, it's, uh, especially on the person, it's one, it wears them down. Two, they're not going to retain any of it. It's just, it's much better to go very deep on one singular issue. The most important thing on that frame is telling them how you want to feel or how you want to walk away. If it's, I want to walk away with this conversation with us having alignment or being on the same page, or just you hearing me out not needing to fix it, any way that you can give them a heads up of how you want to end. Because so many times we get in that conversation and you're going, at least from, let's say in this scenario, the guy's perspective, what do you want? What's your point? And so what do I say? I start to jump in and go, oh, so you want me to do this? You go, no, no, no, no, that's not, that's not it. Okay, so I'm still listening. And then later on I go, oh, so you want me to do this? You go, no, no, no, you're not hearing me. I'm like, I'm listening. And you go, it's because at that point in time, you, you truly don't know how to land the plane. You just, you don't know.

Sometimes it's like if you have, as a woman, you like have been in it all day, and then you finally have an audience.

It's like you don't want it to go away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're just like, I just need you to sit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're like, I'll just keep the microphones running, please. Yeah, yeah.

I just need you to, just need you to sit.

Yeah, actually, now that I see you're tuning to me, I just want rep. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Uh, but that's, that's what happens because you're trying to— you just get in and you wait until you're talking to figure out what you want to say. And I— what you'll hear is the person go, no, no, no, no, that's, uh, no, no, wait, wait, wait. And they start continuing to talk more, and you're just thinking, what's, what's your point? What do you need from me? And now, now you're going, oh, you don't even care. Like, you, you weren't even listening to me.

You're like, what are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in any conversation? Number 1 is silence.

Just nothing. So if somebody were to say something that's snarky, the best move is to say nothing. You just kind of sit back and you look around, you look up, you look off. I'm telling you, 9 times out of 10, they can't take it. Really? They can't take that silence because then, then it's spread out. You've just exposed— instead of you covering it up with something else that says, excuse me, did— what did you say? You're just leaving it open. Kind of like that. I really wish that the best foot you're gonna put out right now, you got one. You go, that's the one we're gonna choose. And if you just Let that silence sit there. Oftentimes, and you've probably heard this, they go, I shouldn't have said that. You gotta give them that chance. That's number one. Yeah, number one is you got to give them the chance of that silence. Number two, acknowledge that it could be without acknowledging that it is. And you said an example of saying, well, maybe so, maybe you're right.

Did I say you're right? No. But maybe you are.

Maybe, maybe you're right.

But it's that piece of humility that says, yeah, well, maybe you're right. I had a guy once who said, uh, I was deposing him and, you know, all these, all you lawyers, worst things that ever happened to America, kind of talk. I said, well, maybe you're right, but today's just gonna be a conversation between us. Is it okay if you're just talking to Jefferson? And he said, yeah, I can do that. Wow. And so it's that ability to just say, well, maybe so, but I could have, I could have gotten really defensive with them. I could have, I could have chosen to taken that personally instead. I just dropped it. Uh, the other power, other power move is to hold off on the timing. So when you are mad, that's generally not the best time to do it. When, like, when, when you know You've done something wrong. You want somebody to be mad at you, to like, fight me, please. Like, I know I've done something wrong. Let's, let's have this out. We'll talk about this. Yeah. You want to talk about this at noon?

All right, let's talk about it. Let's put it on the calendar for tomorrow. You got it.

Let's go. Well, I'm okay. And it's— I'm glad. I'm glad you said that. Well, then, you know, I don't really have my thoughts together on that, but Why don't we call in to talk about that at noon tomorrow? What do you think? Now they're like, oh my God, like I just said something that I shouldn't have said. But that's a much better way of handling it because at that point you have not lost any confidence, right? You have not lost your credibility. And you've maintained that you're the one in control at all times. I'm telling you, the key is just starting with your breath. In choosing to be quiet. Right. And if you were to, if you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like if you were to say, I don't know, do you, do you, do you enjoy matcha tea? I go, no. Versus me thinking, no. Like there's just a different connotation to it when you think about it. Yeah.

About 14 years ago, someone gave me a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I want or more of what I already have. And I use it all the time when I go order a coffee, I use it. When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it. When I'm working with partners and collaborators, I use it. And the line is, what's the chance? What's the chance you give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room? Yeah, it's a chance you can get me in first class.

Yeah.

What's the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way? Yeah. What's the chance you can go a little more on this? And I've used that over and over again because it continues to work and I almost use it as a game daily. Yeah. Any store I go into, I'm just like, what's the chance you got 10% off on this? Yeah.

Just to see what they say.

You can make something happen. Yeah. Because if you don't ask, you're not going to get it. Right. And It's just like a way to be playful. It's a way to like see, can I enroll someone in something that I maybe I shouldn't be getting? I would get— yes. And it often works where the unexpected happens. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly, that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?

So I do, I absolutely use the, what's the chance? Really? Yeah. So I will use that when it feels like a, like a stalemate between the other attorney. And look, what's the chance that your client's going to be able to do X, Y, and Z? Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client, same way I do with like the reception clerk versus the hotel, I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person because I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through. Right. And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine, you know, all the updates you're, you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I know that this is how you're doing the best thing you can for your client. I mean, between me and you, what, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were— if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do? And it gives them something to think about, right? The same way, like at a, let's say, at a hotel or something like that. I can only imagine you just been— how long's your shift? Yeah, yeah. 7 hours. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's going to be— and so you just— yeah. You kind of create that connection with them that says, I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole. And then, because that's who they are. Yeah, exactly.

That's powerful.

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