How to Set Boundaries with Dominant People (In-Laws, Bosses, Family)

We all know one, and in fact, we might just be one ourselves. Today's episode is all about how to communicate with and handle a strong personality. When it comes to handling that strong personality in your world, number 1, don't sweat the small stuff. Don't attend every argument that you're invited to. People that are strong personalities like to make issues of every little thing, and it is up to you whether you take that bait or not. Arguments are often like chess. You have to give up some pieces in order to win. So don't sweat the small stuff. Number 2, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. People who have strong personalities often don't know that they're coming on that strong. It's just a product of their nature. So if you take it personally, you are going into the area of no return where you're going to find that you are at the bottom of a vortex and you're asking, well, how did I even get here? It's because you took it personally. We're going to talk about how to separate the person from the problem. That's why number 3, we're going to give and talk about phrases that help cue this strong personality to back off nicely, respectfully. Cues such as, "Is this something we have to agree on?" "Is this something we have to agree on?" or "Are you asking me to agree with you?" or "Do I need to agree with you?" You are letting them know that they are being a little bit too pushy, coming on a little bit too strong, and they need to back off. Just because it's a strong personality does not mean it's a bad personality. There are plenty of people out there that are wonderful. They just have strong personalities. They come on really strong, and that can happen for any number of issues. Maybe it's part of their nature. It's what they grew up in. I'm in a family of strong personalities. I'm surrounded by attorneys in the legal world, all very strong personalities. It might be a symptom of or a consequence of that's how they control their surroundings. That's how they operate. Again, it's part of their nature. And if you leverage a strong personality, they can do wonderful things. Many successful people are strong personalities. So it is not something— I want to make sure that you understand, I am not saying that a strong personality is something negative. It is something that can be highly positive. I'm a strong personality, all right? But it is in these moments where you are having an argument or a conflict or a disagreement that you tend to take that strong personality as something negative. I want you to stay away from that. Strong personalities are something that can be very positive and benefit any environment that they're in. I want to talk more on number 1, don't sweat the small stuff. Now you might say, Jefferson, that's easier said than done. I know, I know. Now in my world, my dad would often, when I'd come to him with issues and say, this is what's happening, and maybe I'm arguing with my mom as a teenager or one of my siblings, my dad would say, don't make it your alamo. Don't make that your alamo. In other words, he was cueing me of this Is this issue really something that you want to die on? Is this the hill that you want to die on? Is this what you're going to put your flag in the ground and say, I'm not moving from this? Often that question would make me go, you know what, yeah, you're right, that's not, that's not that important. Often that's just part of human nature. We find ways to go, they're not doing what I want, so I'm going to argue with them, and now it's their fault. And that often just causes a whole lot of problems in our life that can be avoided if we just don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe it's that moving the couch, you know, to the other side of the room. Maybe it's a different detergent. Maybe somebody sat in your seat when you just got up. Little things that in reality, they don't matter. And the more you find that you sweat the small stuff, you make an argument out of everything, and you attend every argument you're invited to, it's going to slowly erode your peace of mind. You're gonna be more and more sensitive. You're gonna be more and more on attack mode and on the offense all the time, and it's just not worth it. And that goes hand in hand with the concept of not taking it personally. When somebody with a strong personality is coming on and wanting their way and pushing, the question that I like to ask myself is, what does this person need? What do they need? What are they needing in this moment? What are they— not just for me, but from the whole context of the conversation. Maybe it's they need to feel like they're secure. Maybe they need to feel like they have confidence. Maybe they need that sense of control. Maybe there is the unknown that they need a few things. There's always some kind of hidden need that is beneath the surface of their personality because you and I both know people that have very strong personalities at the same time can be entirely insecure. And so it's that insecurity that is driving and forcing that. So ask the question and find out whether or not Where does this push come from? When we say somebody's a strong personality, it's often because we say it feels like they're pushing in the conversation. They're always pushing their opinion, pushing their point of view, and there's no neutral territory for us to talk in. So often you have to separate that person from the problem, meaning instead of saying, "God, you're so pushy. You, you, you, you," talk about their character. "You never listen to me. You always want your way." Instead of the "you," You're talking about the problem, meaning you're talking about the issue itself. Let's get back to the issue at hand. I want to talk about the issue. Let's talk about what you're needing out of this conversation, what I need out of this conversation, instead of focusing on talking and disparaging each other's character. And the phrases that have always worked for me are what I call cues. I've mentioned that several times in this episode. These are just questions that I ask, and they're really statements that sound like a question that I'm using to prompt them to look at themselves. That's the point. Instead of me pushing something, like using an arrow to shoot at them, I'm using a mirror to get them to listen to themselves. For example, if somebody's strong personality is trying to push something onto me, I will use the question, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Usually the answer is no. Almost always the answer is no. They're just talking about it to talk about it. If by chance the answer is yes, 'Is this something we have to agree on?' I followed that up with, 'Well, is this something we need to agree on right now? Is this something we have to agree on now?' That adds the component, component of timing, because often it's not the right time. People with strong personalities push time frames on you. They want you to have that conversation when they want to have that conversation. That doesn't mean it's right for you. So often you need to have that conversation when you're ready too. So when you can prompt them by saying, 'Is this something we have to agree on Now, almost always the answer to that is no. They're going to say, "No, I mean, we can talk about this later. You're right, we can talk about this later." And 9 times out of 10, whatever was so important to that strong personality right there in that moment, in a few hours, it's not that important. The next day, totally forgotten. When you can delay it, not sweat the small stuff, and not take it personally, it takes away the teeth out of it. Some other questions that have helped me in the past is asking them, Is this something that we need to agree on at this moment? I'm asking them, do we need to agree on this? Are you asking me to agree to this? That's what I typically go with. I'll ask, do you need me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you? Do I need to agree with you on this? I'm just pushing that question to them of saying, hey, you understand that you're pushing your own opinion. Are you asking me to agree? Do I need to agree with you? Often the answer is no. Accuse them that they're being a little bit too pushy in the conversation, and they will back off. The answer I typically get is, no, no, no, no, you know, I'm just wondering about— that's what you want. You want that no, no, no, no, no, I, I— what I mean, what I'm just trying to say is— and it backs them off and lets them know that they're coming on just a little too strong. Now we're at one of my favorite parts of the podcast, and that's when I get to read a question from a follower. I have a weekly newsletter where I send out a email right to your inbox once a week that gives a short, concise communication tip. If you're not part of that newsletter, you're going to find it there in the show notes below. I get to ask, you know, get a question from a follower, and I pick one out. This one right here, let me pull up my phone. This one is from Shannon in Dallas. She says, Jefferson, thank you so much for your content. Thanks, Shannon. I have an issue with an overbearing father-in-law. He always tries to push his opinion onto me, especially if it's only he and I in the room and nobody else around. He's trying to get me to agree with his side, whether it's politics or how things should be done around the house or my role. Any advice would be helpful. Shannon, I hear you, and that's difficult. That is a strong personality, especially in-laws. In-laws can, you know, they typically have strong personalities. That doesn't mean it's bad, it's, it's often good. Here's what I'm going to recommend to you. Anytime— one, I'm assuming I'm going to make some assumptions. Number 1, I'm assuming that the conversation is appropriate, meaning he's talking about something that is okay to talk about. He's not asking inappropriate questions. He's not pushing something that is making you super uncomfortable. He just has a pushy, strong personality. What I'm going to recommend to you is, 1, you use the question of, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Or, "Are you asking me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you?" Often the answer you're going to find, and I, I'll be surprised if it's not, the answer that you're going to get is no. No, no, no, I'm just, you know, I'm just asking, I'm just, you know, wondering your thoughts on this. It's okay to prompt them with those questions, but often you'll find they'll move on because you're indicating to them that he's being a little bit too pushy in the conversation. Here's another thought that's coming to my mind. Often you can frame a conversation in a way that allows them not to have that control in the first place. So if you find that he raises an issue and he's trying to push something on you and you want to get out of it, you need to tell him how you want the conversation to end. Meaning you call your shot ahead of time. You're just telling them how you want the conversation to end. And it sounds like this. If you're getting into that conversation and you find maybe you're 2 minutes into it, you go, look, I want to walk away from this conversation with us with the understanding that this is going to be this way, or this isn't going to change. I want you to have— I want to walk away with the understanding of— I want to walk away is the key phrase. I want to end this conversation understanding blah blah blah. I want to walk away from this conversation with X, Y, and Z. It's not you actually walking away. I'm not saying you leave the conversation, though if you need to, you certainly could. It is the idea of, I am telling you right now how I want this conversation to end. And that's how this is going to go, period. That way they can't guide it anywhere else. You're saying, look, I want to end this conversation with, let's say his name was Carl, I don't know. You said, Carl, look, I want to end this conversation with you and I on good terms, all right? Carl, I want to end this conversation and us have a great day. I want to walk away with this conversation feeling good. I want to walk away from this conversation excited for the dinner we're about to have. Just find ways to cue them out of saying, look, this is where I want to end this conversation. Don't take us to a bad place. Don't take us towards somewhere difficult. It's okay to have a strong personality, but understand that on the end of it, I want to come away with a positive takeaway that's going to preserve both of our peace of minds. Now, we all know people that no matter the conversation, they always find a way to talk about themselves. And even if it's not about themselves, it always seems to be their voice that takes up the entire conversation. On today's episode, we're discussing how to handle people who dominate conversations. When it comes to somebody dominating a conversation, and not in the good way, as in they're not letting anybody else speak, they're the ones always having to hear their own voice, there's some things I need you to do. Number 1, interrupt them. You interrupt that person. Now, I know it doesn't sound like me to suggest that, but it's true because if they're not going to respect your time, then you have to do it. And there's a particular way I want you to do that. You interrupt them by using their name. You start low and then you go higher because people listen to their name. Their name gets their attention. It's the best word they can ever hear is their name. So if I were to hear you and I, or somebody was listening to me and I just said, hey, Jefferson, Jefferson, Jefferson, you say it as often and as loud as you need to because it will eventually make them stop. Number 2, when they do stop, I want you to filter and pass it. Here's what I mean. Filter as in you're going to summarize what they just said very quickly and then pass it to somebody else to say, "Hey, I totally hear you. I understand what you're just saying. I'm curious to hear what Bob has to say or what Susie has to say." Or you turn it on yourself. "My thoughts are..." And number 3, if they're still dominating the conversation, then you gotta put a time limit on it. You have to find a way to get out of there because you're not reaching them. So it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I got about 5 more minutes and then I need to..." I need to do other things. But time limit is the only way to make sure that they're just going to continue to talk as long as they have an audience. And at the end of it, you just have to understand when somebody is dominating the conversation, it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. It's a monologue and you didn't buy a ticket to hear it. So if they're not going to respect the way conversation should happen, it's time that you respect yourself. And most of the time, these kind of scenarios happen in meetings. Zoom meeting, in-person meeting, it doesn't matter. Where I see it most is in Zoom meetings because now after COVID with everything, a lot of the legal world has moved to Zoom where everything is virtual, and I'm sure that's the same way in your world. But what typically happens is that there is, let's say, a dozen people, 10 people, 8 people on the Zoom, and before you know it, it's just one person talking the entire time. It's one person who always has an opinion. It's one person who always has to feel like contributing to the conversation way more than their share. And they think truly inside themselves, they just don't have the emotional intelligence to realize that people aren't really— they're kind of getting tired of you talking the entire time. That filter isn't there for them, so they just, they keep talking the entire time. And in meetings especially, you have to make sure that person doesn't do that because it'll just kill your meeting. It'll ruin it. It will reduce productivity. It will get people aggravated. You know that feeling where All of a sudden they need to come in again and everybody kind of lets out a sigh like, "Great, this person again. Oh geez, I wish we could just go." It'll absolutely ruin your meeting and the productivity and where you want to go. So when that kind of thing happens, you have to step out in front of it the first time. If you just let them drone on because you're afraid to offend them, you're afraid to come out in front and feel like that's being too direct, then you just have to be okay with a bad meeting because it's, it's not going to happen. Also understand that when people are dominating the conversation, it's often a sense of insecurity. Like most things, we feel that the more we talk, the more intelligent we are, the more people will see how smart we are, how much we're trying to contribute. But often what I find in meetings is The person who speaks the most is typically the one that knows the least. It's the person who's the least out of touch, so they have to overcompensate and feel like everybody around them can have some kind of faith in them, so they talk a whole lot. But often the more you say, it just shows the less that you know. So you're going to be careful about that in your next meeting. But here's the takeaway: when somebody's dominating and trying to control the conversation, you have to step out in front of it quickly, because if you don't, it can go south in a hurry. And I hear some of you already going, Jefferson, I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting this person. I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting them. They're going to get upset if I interrupt them. No, they're not. They're going to want to stop and listen. Maybe they might be a little bit frustrated, but your purpose is true. And here's how I'm going to help you with that. When you need to interrupt somebody, there's a difference between me just starting to share my thought Let's say, for example, you're talking to me, telling me a story. I've heard this story a million times. There's a difference between me cutting in and going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we all know. We all know." Okay? And then just ignoring you and continue to go on with my thought. That's going to upset you, right? That's going to make you feel like, "Oh, they just interrupted me. They just cut me off." But if I were to use your name and say, "Jefferson, I need to interrupt you." All of a sudden, it doesn't feel like an interruption. Because I told you what it is. I told you that I'm interrupting you. And I know we've discussed this before on the podcast on how to handle interruptions, but it's the same, same true for people who dominate conversations. If I tell you that I'm interrupting you, if I say, I know I'm interrupting, or I need to interrupt you, nobody takes offense to it because here you're acknowledging what you're doing. It's the acknowledgement of the formality. So yes, I understand. Typically, I should not be interrupting. I should be hearing you out. And in this case, you have to because they're not respecting the formality of I say something, then you say something. I say something, you say something. It's just all about them. So if you think about it in a pie chart, there's these people who control the conversation to hear their own voice a lot of ways, and they're totally fine with taking up 98% of the pie and leaving 2% to you. Really, for that 2% to tell them how great they are or how smart they are. We're not going to be doing that here. It's as simple as using their name because it's going to get their attention. They're going to perk up to that. When you say, hey, Jefferson, it's going to automatically turn to you. They're going to look at you, especially the more you raise your voice in that way. But you're going to do it kind. You're not going to do it in a way that is rough or rude or just exasperated. That's going to that's going to make it go further south. Here you are pulling them back in, in a way nudging them back in to how a conversation is supposed to go, especially one that you're going to be involved in. Because understand, what you're doing here is also informing them, "Hey, if you want to have a conversation with me, this is how this is going to go. I'm going to say something, you're going to say something, and we're going to acknowledge each other's points. I'm not here, I didn't buy a ticket to listen to the show where I just sit and you get to say everything and I have to be quiet." That's not it. Here you are showing them your manual. If you want to communicate with me, this is how you're going to do it. So when you use their name, it gets their attention. And it's an easy way if you feel like you're being too direct to tell them, I need to interrupt you. Mind, this is a big key. This is a big key point of this. Mind you, do not apologize. Look at me. Listen to me. Don't apologize. Don't say, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. You are not sorry for it. You are not sorry for it. Here, you need to do it. It is them that has put you in this position. So you're not going to apologize for having a boundary. You're not going to apologize for needing to take a stance and say, this can't continue. Cool? So you're not going to say, I'm sorry. It is, I need to interrupt you. That is as simple as that. Or, I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting you. Both of those will even allow them to go, "Okay, I'm listening." It'll totally turn it to you, and they're not going to take offense to it because you're acknowledging it in the moment. And one point I want to make very clear is that once you interrupt them and filter and pass it, part of that is the acknowledgment. It is key that when you need to take the conversation away from somebody who is dominating and monopolizing the conversation, you acknowledge what they have said. Summarize it very briefly, even if just one sentence, because it— otherwise they're going to feel totally shut down and dismissed, and it's going to lead to negative things. I don't want that for you. You can simply cure that by summarizing what they just said. For example, let's assume that, um, you are talking to me on a given topic and I interrupt you. Let's say your name's Jefferson. Weird name, such a lame name. And I need to interrupt you and I just go, hey Jefferson, Jefferson. And then all of a sudden I just start cut off my thought and I go, hey Jefferson, I want to hear what Lauren has to say about this. You hear how all of a sudden I just felt— you, you feel cut off from me? If I were to say, hey Jefferson, I want to, yeah, I want to hear what Greg has to say. You're going to feel cut off immediately. Instead, if I said, hey Jefferson, I hear you. I agree that this point and that point and that point, or I hear you that this is something that is frustrating you. I don't disagree. I'd like to hear what so-and-so has to say on this point. Here I just summarize it. I say thank you for what you've shared. Again, I'm distilling it to the important point, and then I pass it to somebody else. Or you can pass it to yourself easily. It's just as simple as saying, hey Jefferson, I hear your point. I'm not saying I agree with it. My thought here is blah blah blah. You're just taking it because you've acknowledged what they've said, and then now you're passing it on to the next one because they're not sharing the ball. Right? They're hogging the ball the entire time. So it's on you to kind of kindly take it from their hands and pass it on to continue playing the game. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen. I also want to make sure and add a disclaimer in here that people who monopolize conversations and dominate them, it's not necessarily on purpose. It goes back to what I originally said is it's an insecurity. Bottom line, it's an insecurity type thing that they don't realize how much they're talking. I find in my world that it is people who get older in life and don't realize how much they're talking. It is also the plain sense of let's just, let's approach that situation with some grace so that you may be the only person they've spoken to. You might be, if it's somebody who's older and they haven't seen anybody today, and you're now the one that's going to be talking to them, they might have a week's worth of information of stories and things that they just want to share because in that moment they have a reason for feeling like they're alive and valuable and important, and you're going to be the one that the focus in that. If that's the kind of situation, then you just need to be patient. It's that moment where instead of going, ah, this is such a waste of time, being reflective of saying, I need to slow down a little bit. What's here for me? So understand there's always two sides of the same coin, especially for even people that are neurodivergent, they have ADHD, maybe they have other kinds of issues that make it difficult in the way their brain functions to not stop talking. And that's nothing— that does not mean that it's a weakness. It just means it's something to learn and to deal with differently. And that's my whole point of this episode, is not that people who dominate conversations are evil and terrible. It is simply that it happens naturally with everybody, including yourself. And that just means it's something to handle and react to and respond to in a very productive and efficient way.

You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to. Yeah, that's brilliant.

It is a mindset. Of instead of the default where somebody is engaging in opinion with you, like we're opinion-making machines. Something happens in the world, where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion. To who? Their audience of 6 people that are on their Facebook or something. And they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree, they disagree, and who's attacking who, and who's a snowflake, and who's the whatever. And that kind of behavior solves nothing. And in fact, it's very draining. In fact, if we want to say that's a symptom of very bad health, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are unhealthy, not just physically, but mentally unwell. All right. So if you want to make sure that you stop attending every argument you're invited to, you need to understand that there is a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely, if they don't like you, they're not that important. You know, who do you wanna keep in your life?

Yeah.

Yeah, who do you wanna surround yourself with? And I feel like anytime somebody gives you an invitation to an argument, we go, "Oh, yep, absolutely, check yes, I will be attending." And that's a one-way ticket to bad health.

It comes down to emotional awareness, self-awareness, emotional regulation, doesn't it? Because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated, I think it becomes easier to not attend every argument. When your nervous system is in high alert, when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode.

Yeah.

It's sometimes harder to separate, right? And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also our ability to communicate well, right? And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, hey, you know what, I didn't— I don't want to get involved with that, you know. Uh, something I've learned being online sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or you can have an opinion and not share it.

Yeah. I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything. Now people can expect me to.

Right.

I should be commenting on this event. Great. No problem. I don't think I should.

Right.

I don't want to. And ultimately it's up to me what I, what I will and what I won't communicate on.

Right.

It's kind of interesting. What have you learned? Right. This is interesting. You already An exceptional communicator. You started sharing things online in 2022, so about 3 years or so. You've had a lot of experience with comments on social media. So what, what has being on social media and reading comment sections taught you about other human beings?

You know, I, I'll tell you, I'm blessed with a wonderful audience. I, I can probably count on one hand, truly, the amount of times I've had a negative troll type of just nasty comment, which is just wonderful. And most of the time they're bots, they're not real. But what I have seen, of course, because I'm on social media like you are, I have seen people leave negative, horrible comments in YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, you name it, where the quick little clapback that's ugly, maybe on somebody's weight, appearance, looks, what they said, and it gets a lot of likes, like a crazy amount of likes, because there's this anonymity of being behind the keyboard and you almost in some sense get rewarded for it. When somebody is liking your comment, what are you encouraged to do? Say more ugly things to get more like an appreciation and that dopamine hit of you're doing something well. So what I have seen is that people in comments can be— I've seen it both ways. I've seen the negative side of it and it's detrimental. I've also seen the very positive side of people can create a community in the comments. And you take something like TikTok, for example, sometimes the comments are more entertaining than the actual content itself. People immediately, what they would say, run to the comments because there's so much interaction or things that are funny. People are hilarious. Yeah, I mean, one thing about social media is that there's so many talented people and so many funny people that you would never know that, you know, they're totally, totally total introverts, but they're funny and creative and things you would never be able to see in the world and environment that you're in. So I've been blessed with being able to see the positive. I've been blessed with being able to see the negative of it in social media. And I find, I mean, I'm certainly a product of it. I wouldn't be here with you today had people not resonated with the content that I make.

I would bet that one of the reasons you don't get many negative comments is because of your energy. People respond to energy. They, they do. You know, we all respond to energy and the vibe of the people around us. And so if you're putting out content with a really warm, compassionate, grounded energy with a real desire to help people, right, it's just not gonna lead to that many people, you know, trying to meet that energy with division and criticism. Do you know what I mean? Whereas some people, their whole brand is about calling out, or this is what's toxic, or whatever it might be, whatever it is. So of course that energy is going to attract more energy like that, right? Which is super interesting. I mean, I also very rarely get negative comments, um, but I've always had a rule, actually an internal rule with myself, which is— which maybe I didn't follow in the early days being, you know, online sharing information. But I've learned through the process, which is— it comes back to some of your teachings in this book, right? Which is, if I'm not feeling calm, do not respond to a comment.

Yeah, that's so true.

You know, don't do it. Yeah, it's never going to come— go well. You know, only respond— so sometimes it's like, I think actually that's worthy of a response. Like, I, I feel that'd be good to interact with that. But only do it when you're feeling calm. And calm doesn't just mean my internal state, it also means what's going on in my life.

Yes, right.

It's more important that I'm going to spend quality time with my children.

Yeah.

Or my wife, or going around to see my mum.

Yes.

Actually, you know what, that is more important than a random comment on my Instagram page.

Absolutely. And probably the truth is that's one comment out of 200. Yeah, you know what I mean? And so you have— you might have 199 wonderful comments And we see that one and we kind of go, and we want to comment right there. And you know, it does nothing. I get questions, I know you get questions of people when I post, I get negative comments and, or, you know, how do you handle it? And I go, do you have to? What do you, I mean, the algorithm doesn't care if it's happy or sad, it's a comment. But at the same time, do you know this person? Are you going to actually sit down and spend time with this person? What's going on in your life?

I sort of, In my last book, uh, Jeff said Make Change at Last, there's a chapter called Take Less Offense. Okay, I think you'd really enjoy it actually. And, um, in that chapter I make the case that offense is something we choose to do, right? Nothing is inherently offensive because if it was, we'd all find the same thing offensive.

Yeah, I love that.

The fact that we don't means it's not the comment or the thing that was causing the offense. It was something within us that was being activated, right? Right. I'm not excusing poor behavior here.

Sure.

I'm just saying that nothing is inherently offensive. We're choosing to take offense, right? And then I sort of also make the case in that chapter that on some level, taking offense is actually, or could be argued to be, a little bit arrogant and, and And the reason I say that is because if you think about it rationally, there's 8 billion people on the planet, right? Is it reasonable to believe that every other human being on this planet is going to have the same view and perspective on the world as I do? No, right? It's not reasonable at all. Clearly, some people in the world are going to see the world differently from me. They're going to have different ethics, different religion, a different way of being brought up, different levels of trauma, whatever it might be. They're going to see the world differently. So they may actually disagree with me on certain things. They may see things completely differently. It doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right, or I'm right and they're wrong. Yeah, just means they see it differently.

Yes.

And I, and I kind of feel, bringing it back to your book, one of the things I love about it is I think there's a real deep compassion behind the tools, which relates to what I just said, which is you don't know what's going on with that person. You know, what the person you see is not always the person you're talking to.

Yes.

And that's, I think, one of the things I love the most about it.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right. You choose to take offense to certain things. And I'm of the mindset of anytime you just hear change, you hear about change, it makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you, that's change. You're hearing, it makes you go, "Meh, I don't like that." So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe. We like what is known. Let's say I want to change your mind about something and you have this political view, let's say it's a religious view, for example, and I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are going to happen. Because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother's wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life, is all wrong. And people will do anything far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you in order to preserve what they know. And it is so easy for people. That's why a lot of times in a political climate, they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I I'm comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it comes down from the people that put their value in us. And we will defend the people in our lives that have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong, but if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you don't get to say my dad's wrong. I'm the one. And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity. And so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence. Even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it, we will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with.

Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, obviously you— are an American citizen, and, you know, American politics is, uh, very interesting.

That's a great word. Yeah, let's keep it to that word.

Yeah, it's very interesting. And I think 12 months ago, the statistic that I came across, uh, was that 1 in 6 US adults are not talking to another family member because of a difference of opinion. Yeah. Over politics, which I found utterly remarkable, right? And really just speaks to what you just said, right? Yes. And I guess that in many ways highlights why a book like yours is so important, right? Because it should be possible for two people with completely different religions or completely different political beliefs within the same family— it should be possible to have a conversation with them. Yes. And still love them and still respect them. You know, of course people will argue that there are extremes, there are certain things that people can't get over. Okay, but as a general principle, you should be able to get on with people who see the world differently than you do. Yes. Which is something you don't see online much. But if I think about even my best mates from university, like there's 4 or 5 of us, and you know, we're— we'd be there for each other you know, we could rely on each other for anything. Doesn't mean we all see the world the same way, right? We, you know, we have differences of opinions on things. We're still best mates, right? But it seems as though the world, at least online— well, I say online is getting more divided, but that statistic would suggest that actually offline as well. Yeah, it's getting more divided as well.

Yeah, I definitely believe so, because we're not allowing real conversation. We expect that we can solve all issues in one conversation. In fact, I'll go even more. We feel like we can solve everything and change someone's mind by saying one sentence. And we just think, because I said it, well, then they have to wholeheartedly swallow it, agree with it, take it and say, I'm the most amazing genius they've ever heard. Yes, of course you're right. And that's just never going to happen. And instead, you have to see that If you want to change someone's mind, you better be ready to have multiple conversations. I'm talking conversations over years, things that you're going to have to invest in asking questions and finding out why someone believes what they do. When you actually take the time, rather than fighting the opinion they have, you take the time to find out why they have it and how they learned it. And where they picked it up and when they learned it, all of that information is going to give you way more knowledge and realize it's not the symptom, it's the cause.

Yeah. Is it even possible to change someone's mind? It's like maybe the goal is never to change someone's mind. Maybe the goal should be to learn.

Yeah, I like— well, I would reframe that. Yes, you can change someone's mind, but what you said is right. You have to change the goal. Too often we put a bar on conversations of, and that bar is, they have to admit I'm right. They have to say they're wrong. That is rarely, if ever, going to happen. I can't get my child to say that. I think I'm going to have someone who's a grown adult say that, who's had a year or years, a whole life of experiences. And I think just because I uttered sound into the ear, they're automatically just gonna go, "The scales have fallen from my eyes, how wrong I am." That's not going to happen, right? And so you can absolutely change someone's mind, but one, you have to live it. You can't just say it and there be misalignment in how you're living. Two, yes, evidence helps, but sometimes when you're trying to push your opinion, that makes me come closer more. So for example, the more I tell you you're wrong, the more convinced you're gonna be that you're right. Yeah. You're gonna protect what you know, because this is the one thing you feel like you do know that you're sure about. Why? Because your dad told you about it when you were 5. You know, so you will wrap yourself onto that memory. So can you change someone's mind? Yes, 100% you can, but you cannot do it when you raise the bar as I'm right, you're wrong. Instead, I'm telling you to lower the bar. That's what the book does. It tells you to lower the bar. Instead of saying, I need to prove that I'm right, my goal is to understand where you're coming from. My goal is to ask more questions than I say things. My goal is to— am I showing appreciation? For the time that we're spending in this conversation. When you set the bar really low, I'm just making sure you feel understood and they feel understood and they feel acknowledged. Set a bar of how can I show that I acknowledge them in this conversation? That's going to lead to more of what you want rather than setting that bar that you can never meet.

Yeah. Some of what you just said there speaks to one of the other life lessons in the book, which is never win an argument. Yeah. What does that mean?

Whenever you set out to win an argument, you will lose the relationship over time. If I were to say, do you know anybody in your life who always has to be right? They always have to have the final say. They always have to have the last word. Those kind of people are not someone anybody wants to be around. It's typically an audience of one. And the more you try to win and prove, you lower the quality in connection of that relationship. What you've really won is their contempt. Let's say you and I are in an argument. Rather than me trying to understand you, I have to win. Win often sounds like I'm the last one to talk. That's what we typically have in conversations. The one who says something last is the one who somehow wins. Maybe you said something really ugly because you and I have been personal friends for forever, and I know that one button that I can say that speaks right to your insecurity, and all of a sudden you shut down. Does that mean I win? Probably not. But that's the feeling. Or if you and I are in a conflict of opinion and I'm the one that says, no, I have to be right, and you go, you know what, fine, you're right, you're right. Is that really winning? Over time, they're going to feel contempt for you. What you really want is to be the first to apologize. I mean, that's kind of the procedure of arguments. The person who said the worst thing last is typically the one who has to apologize first. What I like to teach is instead of trying to win the argument, you look to unravel them. You find the knots in the conversation and get really quick and really proficient at loosening them.

Why do you think so many people take things personally when they're having a conversation?

Our default is to make things about me, make things about I, not so much you. And it's just a shift of perspective that we make everything, everything about us. Like, as me, as a young associate at the law firm, us associates would complain about the partners. We go, the partners don't care. Partners don't listen to us. All they do is think about themselves. When I made partner, I got a, within probably 5 minutes, I got an email and I thought, these associates, all they do is care about themselves. You know, it's very us versus them mentality. When you're the employee, you hate the management. When you're the management, you hate the employee. You always find a way to make it about you. It's our default. It's why we take things personally. It's why when you— if I were to text you, "Okay," you're not gonna be, "Look at that. Look how nice Jefferson is. He said, 'Okay,' in the happiest way possible." Instead, you're gonna go, "Okay, what kind of okay is that? Is that an okay, okay? Or is that like an okay?" We find ways of reading the negative in text and email, any transactional correspondence like that.

Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody, or is that you literally mean that? Don't try to win an argument.

I literally mean that. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge,, and the other side's arguing. Again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this, and they just— I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better, but you get into, especially in the courtroom, the ceiling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see, something that— how to win every argument— it's, is lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship, you're going to lose their respect, they're going to close themselves off from you, you're going to be less approachable, you're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument. Hmm.

What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words, where perhaps you are the secondary person, is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of— wrestle's the wrong word— but reestablish pecking order, or at least equality in a conversation? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to— and they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication. The conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog. Is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

You say that about leaders too. This struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator, of a leader, correct?

Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to, and they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go, the best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove, they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever's happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor. What do you personally do when you get frustrated in an argument? Or, I mean, you've shared some things, but, uh, have you just done it so much that these are your go-to phrases when you feel like someone's attacking you or saying things that are just blatantly wrong or blatantly a lie? I mean, when that sense of justice kind of comes up in you, how do you keep yourself calm? How do I keep myself calm? Breathing works every time. I am a big proponent of the breath because I can tell in my shoulders, my shoulders are getting tense. That's what happens, the traps, that my muscles get real tight and I realize, what am I doing? So if I breathe big breath in and out, that helps me a lot to calm down. But I also tend to— this is just from repetition. I am— I like to detach myself from bad arguments, so I, I like to kind of watch them, third party kind of thing, of understanding what's, what's happening in that moment. So when somebody's saying bad stuff to me, I picture myself having like a garbage, like trash can right here. So whenever I get it, I just put it away. Like, I never allow it to I don't allow myself to carry it. I don't allow myself to take it personally. Yeah, I hear it. I don't even— I'm not even putting in my basket. I'm just putting it in the trash. And that image to me helps keep me a lot more calm so that I'm not chasing rabbit trails to, to no man's land. If I want to stay right on path, that's one of the most frustrating things I think for people when they get really mad in an argument is the person who's being logical. Because at that moment, you want to be emotional. You want them to be emotional. You have to find a way that, oh, this is threatening to me. I have to fight or flight. I need to fight you. I want to say something hurtful. I want to throw something. This is my fight mode saying I need to beat you. But if you don't ever present yourself as an opponent in a way to where they're never able to rise to really grab onto something, like if I yelled back at you, I've now just gave them a pedestal to jump even further. If I say something ugly, I've now just justified their words. Now they get to grab for more every time. But if I just never offer that, I defuse it every time. And so often I'll have other attorneys go, man, I, I wish you weren't on this case, or else I'd be able to make, you know, I'd be able to get a lot more passionate and angry. And, and they're just not able to because I never I never provide them that, that rope. So breath works a lot. Slowing my voice and my words down help a lot. Slowing your words is always very useful and calming. And calming. Yeah. So it calms, it calms them down. If I have somebody on the phone or in front of me and they're all worked up, Just for me to say, look at them and say, I hear you. Like, it doesn't matter who it is. They go, okay. I just, they just want to know that I'm acknowledging them oftentimes. And that calms them down pretty quickly. Are there ever times though, when you want to excite them? So instead of calm them down, like you need them to actually be a bit more passionate? And then what do you do in those instances? Just the opposite, like talk faster. You got it. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So if I'm, if I'm wanting to amp somebody up, if I really want to get things going, I'm going to talk a whole lot faster and my volume is going to start to increase. And I'm going to say, hey, look, I need you to be engaged here with me. When I say this, I need you to be there. And then now I'm starting to like get them elevated because they're starting to match my frequency, right? So that's That's what I do. That's right. I was like, I'm all in, Jefferson. Tell me, where are we going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, hey, we're gonna do this. Come on. Yeah, yeah. Then they are, um, now, now they feel like, all right, we're on a team. Let's go. I'm ready to just run through a brick wall.

So I would love for all those people at home who are either in partnerships or friendships where arguing happens— yeah, Jefferson Fisher You and your wife being attorneys, being phenomenal communicators, right? Having sometimes your job depending on it. And then you, of course, becoming now one of the most well-known communicators in the world. Tens of millions of people going to you for this. How do you and your wife argue? And like, let us in on all the secrets that we all need to be doing differently.

Are you ready for the tea? Yes. Okay, my wife, no, I'm kidding. She's a fantastic communicator. Law really teaches you to be concise, and what I like to compare it is I'm a lot slower, she operates a lot faster, but often we have to communicate the same level. You have two kids and you're raising a family and everything, it's a lot. Our arguments are very short, and the reason because of that is we operate on this very quick to apologize, very quick to resolve. If you want your argument to be shorter with your spouse, with your partner, with your friend, be quick to apologize. So often it is the continual circular arguments that just tend to roll on forever because you can't really sleep when you're having that bad argument with your spouse or a significant other. It keeps you up at night. It begins to live and seep, and now you're having to put on an act for your kids when really you're irritated at each other and you want to lash out, being quick to apologize and quick to resolve, that makes our arguments very short because we're fast to say, that's not what I meant, or, you know, I, I can see how that's how you would take it. I didn't, I didn't mean it that way. I didn't intend it that way. Whenever you can push out your intentions rather than pushing how they should react, that's a big difference. "Here I am taking the accountability of, 'I could have done better communicating that,' versus, 'Why would you behave that way? Why would you even behave that way when I said this? Who reacts like that?'" So, when you take the responsibility for being understood, radical things can change.

Even if you think they're completely at fault, they don't get it, they should do different, they should do better, but that's gonna go for an argument forever, 'cause I've tried that. So, you're saying, that you're not saying they're right by apologizing or by, you know, you're saying, "Oh, wait, maybe I could have communicated that differently." You're doing your part to try to make the argument shorter.

There are times when— and again, I'm not pointing to where people are in toxic relationships, people with narcissistic tendencies. Yes, that can be circular and terrible. I'm not saying you should just apologize to apologize. What I'm communicating is whenever there is a friction in the conversation, we make sure that it doesn't get heated. In other words, it doesn't combust and turn into flame. It is trying to draw it out by unraveling the knot and going, "Okay, this is how I understood it. What did you hear?" "Okay, that's not what I intended at all. I'm sorry. What I meant to say was X, Y, and Z." So, the quicker you can get to that, the better.

That's so good. Okay, so, "This is what I intended. What did you hear?" And then, "Oh, okay, well, that's not what I intended. Here's this." You know, I want to just share something that I think is so profound, because every time I was growing up, when I knew my parents were arguing, or this or that, you know, they didn't argue much. My parents actually just didn't talk about hard things. When they did argue, and I knew that they were, I would go in and I would be like, I would say, "Is everything okay?" And they're like, "Absolutely." And they cover it up. We think we wanna protect our kids and hide it. But if the argument's getting drug out and we're actually hiding it, I read something where children are learning to not trust their own intuition. 'Cause they're saying, "Is everything okay?" We're like, "Oh, it's fine, it's fine." They know it's not.

[Speaker] Yeah, they can sense it.

[Speaker] They sense it. And we're saying, "Don't trust your senses," or, "Your senses are off," or something like that. And so the idea of, the stronger you become at communicating and learning how to respond in an argument with someone you love in a way that diffuses it. Yeah. Um, just has so many ripple effects beyond just that particular thing. So I love that.

I want to make sure I tell you, right along with that, um, this happened sometime last year with my son, um, who's now 7, and I got home, long day, suit and tie, and I'm starting to make their lunches for tomorrow. Son asked me, "How your day was, Dad?" And I said, "It was fine, buddy. It was good. It was a good day. How was your day?" And I'm continuing to make the sandwich. And he doesn't bring it up again. We go on about dinner and bedtime, bath, everything. I'm sitting on his bed for prayers and songs. And first thing he asked was, why'd you tell me it was a good day when it wasn't? I kid you not, that is exactly what he said. So I said, I said, what did you mean? He said, you didn't say it like it was good. You said it like you were sad. And I mean, it was such a just slap in the face of, I'm never going to say it was just good again. I need to— he needs to hear that from me. Even when the day's been bad. He needs to hear when it's been tough. I mean, that's— and it was just this moment of, how dare I try to just gloss over the fact that he needs to know that I have hard days too? And that hit me just like a ton of bricks. So yeah, no hiding from him.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, you say, I think this is something really, really powerful because a lot of people don't they don't wanna get in an argument. A lot of people don't even wanna have a conversation, especially if there's like anything hard or difficult or challenging or, you know, any of it. And you say that when you align your conversations or your arguments with your personal values, that you're sort of aligned then ahead of time with your goals before you go into it. Can you explain to us what that means and how we all do it right now today in our lives?

So values are intrinsic to everybody. What I value is gonna be different than what you value. They might be similar, but we all take it different ways based on how we've been raised. What values do is guide you like a, a North Star when there's— you don't have any kind of compass. What I do, what I encourage is that people have conversational values because when you do, decisions become easier. Take it for example with a company, your major Fortune 500 companies, like your company, there are ones that have values. And when you have a value, decisions become easier because you don't have to question it. You follow the value. If my value is I only work with clients who align with me, comes easy. I don't have to make that decision. I know that that's who I'm going to work with. Same thing in your conversation. So one of my values that I hold dearly is, where there is kindness, I will use it. Where there is room for kindness, I will use it. Doesn't matter what they did. Doesn't matter what they caused. The question is, is there room for kindness? And that comes from my mama. I would complain about something that someone happened at school, expecting her to buy into the tea. Let's get some, you know, how dare they kind of thing. And what my mom would say is, "Were you kind?" I can hear it in my head. She'd say, "Well, were you kind?" And I would always go, "I mean, probably not, Mom." And she'd go, "Well, I think you should be kind." I mean, that was just her thing. And that became such a value of me. When I'm talking on the phone to an opposing attorney and he says something snide, I know that he's trying to jab me. Is there room for kindness? I'll use it. And I'll say something like, well, you know what? I know you really care for your clients. I know you really care for your clients, Matt. And that really shows. Any way that I can just share a little bit of kindness, I don't have to worry about the next zinger. I don't have to worry about what can I say to impress them. Is there room for kindness? And that's what I'll do. But I have others—

And you feel like that works to your advantage.

Every time.

Even with a snide attorney on the call. Yes, because— They don't mistake it for weakness.

Because how they interpret it is going to be how they interpret it. Interpreted. I'm the one that has to be left with it. I'm the one that has to walk away and go home to my family. And if I'm carrying that conversation that I had with that opposing attorney home, why? They don't deserve that. That's not what that conversation was for. That's not why they said it. And so having these values, another that I love to use is, if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. If things burn down don't work out with other people, well, that's okay. They'll always still know where I'm at. They always know where to find me. So when you have these ideas in your head of what my value is—

Explain that a little bit more, if I could be a bridge. Be a lighthouse.

Be a lighthouse. Yeah, so let's say you and I been friends and we have a big fallout. Despite what I say, and I'm really trying to mend this relationship, and it's just not happening. You've written me off. It's not working out. The bridge is really burned. Well, that's okay. I'm still going to be a lighthouse. Maybe I'll see you in 5 years. Maybe I'll see you in 15 years when life has happened to both of us. But I'm not going to change the light that I'm going to put out into the world just because our bridge was burned.

Or the light you wish that other person.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And so when you have these values, and every one of us has a value, of you. And you, you— that's how you handle your conversations because it allows you to— I don't have to worry about decisions. The values make the decisions for me.

That's so good. I love that too, because I've had to do this. I wish I've never had to do this. I had to do this even recently where a friend just, uh, just like completely wasn't the friend I thought they were. And I think parts of our humanness want to you know, tell them all the reasons they're wrong or this or that or all the things. And it's like, I think when you can just be a lighthouse and go, okay, so it's a different friendship than I thought, and I'm just gonna pray for them and love on them. And I feel like what happens then is you meet the vibration also of attracting great friends.

Yes.

You know, when you—

when you—

and that's your gift.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's where it comes back. Whenever you send that zinger, that clapback, that that sense of, "Oh, man, I just put together the perfect paragraph that's gonna punch them in the mouth." Yeah. It always has a bad aftertaste.

Yeah.

Always. Yeah. It may not be right within that moment, but it'll probably be the next morning, and it'll definitely be a week from now. And I mean, it's— the longer it goes, the harder it is to come back together.

I even think about that when I see comments online. Someone just like, you know, it can feel like a temporary relief or something when you just, you know, get that hateful comment out or attack someone, but then you're meeting the vibration of that in your life. So it just comes all around you in different areas. So that's so beautiful. Be the lighthouse. Even if you're not the bridge. That's right. Even if you're not the bridge. What role does self-worth, play and communication with others and with ourself?

Self-worth matters of who you're listening to. It's the question of who are you listening to when it's, say, I have the confidence, or I can be assertive, or I shouldn't have said that. It is the line of who are you listening to in your life that's driving your own value. So much of what we put in self-value is a lie often. It's doubt. We sow a lot of doubt into ourselves, and that can grow over time to where when you get that one comment from a troll, all of a sudden you feel like they're telling you the truth, when really all they're doing is speaking to your doubts. And self-worth is something that you can grow into. And I don't want to say lean into it. It's something you step into. Because when you can learn how to communicate effectively, to stand up for yourself just a little bit, you have that self-worth. When you can tell somebody no and it works, you feel excited about it. You feel worthy. Hey, you feel like, hey, I have that within myself of good, good job. Okay, now you feel a little bit better, and then you continue to grow in that step by step by step. But self-worth is very much tied to your communication, because again, how you communicate is who you are and how you feel about yourself.

And how you communicate with yourself, right?

Oh yeah. Yes. No doubt. And because it's— remember, who are you listening to? Am I listening to my own doubts? People who are negative say negative things. And people who are positive say positive things. It's as simple as that. When you start to doubt yourself, it's because you're listening to your doubts. You're not listening to the positivity. When you feel anxious, you're listening to the anxiety-inducing thoughts of what-ifs, of what-ifs, rather than the comfort in knowing, I knows, I knows, I knows.

These are such powerful tools that we can apply to our life right now, right? Like, and what I love is they're free.

They're free.

Yeah. And they're not always easy, but we can get in the habit of them and we can apply them right now. So thank you for these tools.

People want to feel like they're, they're respecting themselves and they're standing up for themselves. They're not letting people walk all over them in conversation. And some of the stuff that we've been talking about over the last few minutes is really how to make the other person feel heard, how to not pour gasoline on the existing fire with our words. In the context of speaking with authority and conviction and standing up for yourself to somebody, what have you found to be an effective way to do so without being disrespectful?

Well, I see two sides of that question. You know, there is what we just talked about, the person's desire to feel acknowledged, to feel heard. And you can do that with phrases like, that's helpful for me to know, I've learned that X is important to you, or I understand that this is important to you. And you can lower their barrier that way. But to continue to stand up for you, there's got to be a boundary. There's a lot of— I'm going to use the word peace— that and clarity that comes with putting a frame around your life and around the conversation. That means you are focusing what is in it and excluding what is not. Just like you would put a piece of frame, a frame around a piece of art, you are enhancing what's inside it. So if you want to put up a boundary with somebody, somebody's pushing your buttons, you need to say no, you need to stand up for it, you're using assertive language. So I, what I like to give it for people is you're giving them a manual rather than giving them a remote. So instead of letting them control your behavior by pushing all your buttons, you're telling them I don't accept the way you talk to me. So there's a difference in saying, you can't talk to me that way. I don't allow people to speak to me that way. So, or even stronger, somebody says, you can't speak to me that way. I don't respond to that. I guess just this shift of this reactive versus responding in a way that keeps you grounded by having a boundary of what's important to you and how you're going to speak and how you're you're going to assert yourself in the conversation.

So in real time, if you and I— let's just pretend we're actually having coffee right now.

Oh yeah, coffee sounds good.

I need some. And you say something to me about something, and I go, that sounds really stupid of you. What would be the— instead of you, what would be like the real-time like response to me in that situation?

So there's two that come to mind. Let's assume that we are friends, that we know each other, we're good. My immediate reaction would be, was that meant to be hurtful, or are we just being funny? Get that to clarify. I'm giving them that grace of, I know you didn't mean to, I know you didn't mean to insult me. Now, if we're not friends, I'm gonna let that linger give it 5 seconds of quiet, and then repeat what you've just said, or ask you to repeat what you just said. So if you said something, and for example, if I just had quiet, I could say, so that sounds, that sounds stupid to you. All I'm doing is repeating it. And then they go, well, what I meant was blah blah blah blah blah. So, but what you're doing is saying, hey, this is, I'm standing here I'm standing right here, uh, and I'm not, I'm not moving. So understand, if I don't like something, I will push it back rather than me continuing to carry your words and me feel less and less and less of myself.

So we talked about like how like the biggest asset you can have is using your breath and practicing the pause before saying anything in the midst of high-conflict situations or conversations like we just went over. Is the opposite also true? Because you hear a lot of people, and I've definitely been guilty of this, is like the tick-for-tack. Like somebody says something to you and you try to one-up them with something else, and it's just this never-ending battle to the bottom, right?

Right. Yeah, the race to the bottom is exactly what it is.

Is that the biggest mistake you see people make, is just this tick-for-tack approach when they're—

Yeah, it's this perception that you have to win the argument. When my advice is always never win the argument. Winning an argument is not a thing. If you win an argument, you've won contempt, you've won regret, you've won resentment. It's a lose-lose game. What you've really lost is that person's respect. You might have lost the relationship, the connection that you once had because you thought that saying that hurtful thing was going to make you win. It was going to end the conversation. Like in a negotiation, the advice is the person who speaks loses, right? Well, in a relationship you want to build, it's typically the person who speaks last loses because you went too far. You ratchet, you ratchet. So as soon as— let's say you said something to me, Doug, that was at a louder tone. If I go louder than you, in my mind, I'm winning. I need to beat you. Well, I've now just done two things. I've justified your ability to go even louder. I've also just confirmed every fear that you had about me. I've now confirmed every thought you had. I am rude. I am ugly because I haven't denied it. I've just given you all the tools and resources to feel even more afraid. So it's—

it—

I'm— I am— it's like, it doesn't make sense to me that how would you respond to a threat with a bigger threat? Often that just— that does not create connection with the other person. It doesn't. It just makes them not like you more. So that's—

that's—

that's kind of the advice that I always fall back to. Is that if you win an argument, your priorities are in the wrong place. It is a race to the bottom. Whenever you just ratchet it, eventually it hits a tipping point. You know, the sympathetic turns into the parasympathetic. The ratchet, the fight or flight— you did something to— you fought too hard, you threw that very hurtful word, and now it's the cooling point where you feel regret, you feel dread, you feel sad, and you go, I just feel bad about the whole thing. And then you focus on what matters, but you should have done it in reverse.

Yeah, there's nothing that drives somebody more nuts, like, in the midst of a high-conflict conversation is when, when the other person says, like, nothing, you know, they kind of walk away. And it really drives that— I can't believe they're not reacting and responding. Yeah, how I am, right? And it's like, it's like sometimes when you send, like, a hurtful text, another person just doesn't respond, you just send more and more and more.

It's killing somebody. Yeah, because you wanted that dopamine, right? You wanted that, like, You wanted that, like, ah, yes, they are fighting back with me.

And you feel powerless now because you feel like that person has gained authority over you because they're not giving in exactly to what you want. Like, why are we so driven to not walk away from arguments even though deep down we know that that's how we gain respect, authority, value through somebody else's eyes has been—

is by knowing when to walk away. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, what's, what's worth your time? Uh, and, and exactly right, you can, you can shoot that text that you thought was a zinger, right? You thought you just sent that zinger of a text, and then they don't respond to it. And all of a sudden, when 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes go by, it feels less and less like a zinger and more and more like you're wearing You know, the dummy hat of like, why did I send that? Ah, this doesn't make— and now you're frustrated. Now you realize, oh, they just have full control over my emotions. Now I feel like I'm, you know, I'm not anywhere where I need to be. You know, meanwhile, they look like they're calm, cool, and the bigger person.

And do you think that's like an ego thing, that like people, they just— they— their ego gets in the way, their, their self-esteem gets in the way, and that's why they feel they just can't walk away and they feel that if they're not winning this argument or being quote-unquote right, that it's just a reflection of how they feel about themselves.

That's part of it. I think it's part of a bigger picture. It has a lot to do with your upbringing, I think, and just what you saw as conflict. It's some people— you know, I grew up in homes like my house, my parents didn't really argue in front of us. They went in another room, you know, if they needed to have some words. There are other people who had it all out right there in the open. Didn't matter where they were. It could be at a restaurant, it could be at the house, it could be in front of other kids. So conflict looks different to other people. And some people have grown up in that very toxic argument behavior where they do say the terrible things, where they understand the really bad arguments as a process of feelings or to get it out. And so it's relative really to how they grew up. So ego is part of it, but a lot I think too is what they learned and imitated to see as their measure of this is how to handle conflict. They weren't taught or equipped better ways.

What do you think gets in the way of that? Is it when somebody wasn't raised in a way that modeled healthy conflict, they get into conflicts as adults A lot of times there's physical symptoms that come along with the conflict because you're in fight or flight mode. Do you think that is harder for people to deal with, or is it the, the lack of understanding on healthy conversation tactics in the midst of something like that?

Well, I think the behavior is, is learned. I, I mean, I don't think Yeah, we're born, we're born to say no, you know, to not like— you know, I got two kids. I didn't need to teach them how to argue with me. They just did it. You know, you want them to have this certain food? No, I don't, I don't want this. It's their favorite word growing up. No, that doesn't need to be taught. It's just within our, our system. But the people who— that's what they grew up with, are these toxic behaviors I think are much more prone to not knowing how to handle it. And on the other side, there are people that were taught it. They just find that when they behave a certain way, they get their sense of power, they get their sense of ego, they get— they think this is what success is. They think this is what it is to achieve and overcome and be machismo with it all. You know, I think there is a, a fine line between using what you know and falling back to what, what you think works.

How do we navigate conversations with more authoritative figures in our life?

Can we— let's talk real quick about why they feel the need to ask that kind of thing. So I think it's worth exploring with me and you, right? I mean, why would mothers— I'm not a mother, I'm a father. I know why I might ask something in a way that I don't mean it offensively, but I am curious. And I'm curious of why do you think parents want to ask that kind of thing? Is it disapproving? Do they feel like they disapprove of the kids? No. No? You think that they wish that they were more like them?

Yeah.

I suppose a component of it could be fear. The reason why I go back to fear is because I think, and this is another challenge that a lot of the audience has, and that is, you know, you should be married already. Right. You're 35. What are you doing? You should already have a child by now. You should be married. And I think a lot of it could be their fear inappropriately assigned. But I think that it could be I think that they could be reacting out of fear.

Right. I think you're right. I think a lot of it has to do, like with most things, has to do with the fear, whether they want their child to have a partner. They don't want them to be alone should they not be there. Now, there's also some other mother-in-laws who just need that control because their son is the biggest thing to them and they need to make sure that they are the ones controlling and thinking what the wife should do and disproving if it's not anything like what they would do, they need to voice that. Yes. Common, common across I think all cultures all over the world. Now, how do you handle that kind of thing? One, you need to see it for what it is. That's typically a show of personal selfish concern. From them. They're wanting something. It either needs to— the life needs to look more like they want it to be. So one, recognize where it's coming from rather than taking it super personally. Recognize where it's coming from. I would encourage you to ask questions that are going to open them up a little bit more. Questions like, what makes you ask? Something as easy as that is often to get them Why? Because we want to find more information. Sure. We want to find, is it really the fear? Rather than getting so worked up and personal enough and getting defensive, just ask one more question like we talked about. That's going to get you a little bit more information of where is the question coming from? Is it truly curiosity or is it because their friend Janice asked them two weeks ago and they didn't know what to say, so they need to, what do I know? Right. So number one, understand the context. Two, if you can, use words of appreciation but dismissal. This is what I— Appreciation but dismissal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean dismissive in the positive context, not in like a get out of here. Okay. So that would sound like, I appreciate the concern or happy. I appreciate the thought. We're good. Something as simple as that. You're not having to explain. Now, there are people who would probably rather hear me say the hard stuff of, excuse me, that's none of your business. In personal context with family and friends, that's not the best move. With strangers, sure. It's what makes you ask? Why should you know? Now, that's a defensive statement, but if it's a stranger, go for it.

Okay, I see it. I see it.

It's a nice dismiss. It's a nice dismiss.

It's a soft dismiss.

It is, yes.

Okay. So then rounding out this difficult conversation, right, this category is what happens if we need a hard dismiss, if we are letting someone go out of our life.

Oh, breaking up.

Oh, how do we approach and handle that conversation?

Those are hard. Those are probably some of the hardest conversations you'll ever have with people who you need to that you know that you need to let go of, people that they're wonderful people, you just know, you know, they're not, they're not your person, they're not your people, or you, they have a great job and they're good, but you, you know, they're not going to be with you. How do you have those kind of conversations? Well, you can use a frame like we talked about, the 1-2-3. What I would encourage is you need to eliminate the small talk. If you need to have a really difficult conversation with somebody, you need to end the relationship. Don't begin with the small talk. That begins— it typically sounds like, "So look, Paul, you know, I've really enjoyed getting to know you these last few hours and everything, but—" Right there. That's where it is. Or we A lot of times we like to use this other phrase. We'll say, Paul, it's been great. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. So listen, that right there is, we know it's all going downhill. Yes. And the other person is just in immense anxiety because they don't know what's happening. They're going to assume you're automatically, you hate them. Everything's going worse. That's why it's not great to start with the positive and then end with the negative. Not going to go well. Instead, this is what I want you to do. Number 1, eliminate the small talk. 2, get straight to the point. You're going to label the conversation. Label it before you even get started. You're going to say something to the tune of, this is going to be a difficult conversation. You know, see how easy that is? This is going to be a difficult conversation. Rather than making them assume or guess or figure out it's difficult, I'm telling you at the outset, "this is going to be a difficult conversation," or "this is going to be hard to talk about. You're not going to like what I have to say. This is probably going to come as a surprise to you. I'm not going to enjoy this conversation." Anything like that is going to allow— it's going to label exactly what's coming up and then allow them to kind of catch themselves, ready themselves, and then deliver what you need to deliver. Then you need to cut it. So 3 would be in the relationship, right? Then don't wait to the very end. Don't— I promise you, the quicker you pull off the Band-Aid, the more relief it's going to be and the more connection and conversation you're actually going to have. You see how it's not nearly as kind when you're indirect.

You know what's so fascinating to me about this is this once again is more advice that really flies in the face of conventional thought. Because I think that the conventional way of dismissing someone, letting someone go, etc., is the crap sandwich. Yeah, right. So the bread on top, say something positive, kind and nice. Then the meat, hit them with the, okay, this is not going to work. And then hit them with another piece of bread. Yeah, exactly. And it's a sandwich. And what you are suggesting that we do is much more effective. It's kinder to the individual. And I think that we, as the person who's delivering it, we can deliver it with more integrity.

Yeah, it's more genuine. It's more honest. I mean, it's even worse when you can— when you leave a conversation like that and you feel worse about it, like you feel bad and the other person now doesn't really trust you because you started with all these wonderful things and then you ended it with a curveball. For them rather than being truthful at the outset. And so the quicker you can, let's say, even if it's you need to end a relationship, rather than as soon as you say this phrase, look, you've been great. You're already talking in past tense. That's true. You know, look, I've really enjoyed getting to know you. You've been so great. And you know, it's not you, it's me. Of course it is. Of course it's me. I mean, it's It's that kind of language does nothing but make them despise you later because it doesn't match their experience. You're giving them fake, empty words. This compliment sandwich is hard to chew. You know, it's impossible to swallow. And truly it's an insult sandwich, I guess, because if you— I mean, it's the insults in the middle. You know what I mean? If it's a ham sandwich, you call it a ham sandwich. If the insult's in the middle, it should really be an insult sandwich. But it's this idea that if I slow roll these soft compliments and then at the end I have to— so look, it's not really my fault and there's things that, you know, we're just not really compatible and I just really feel like— that kind of language is terrible. You can phrase it however you want to. But the point is, eliminate the small talk, label the conversation, give them a little breath, and then tell them what's going on. That's far, far better and far kinder in your communication. It is. Thank you. Thank you for that. You have just been such a, truly a legend in how the way you've turned in my view, arguments and negotiations on their head of just— that's not how we think about them. But it's the way you— the techniques you teach are really, I, I just find groundbreaking. To the person right now who is thinking, I don't want anybody to disagree with me, I want everybody to agree with me, I want every conversation I have, an argument that I'm in, I, I want to win it and everybody needs to go along with my plan, what, what would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation. Yeah, you're driving people away from you. Yeah, you're just— you're consistently— you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart. You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I, I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect. Like, people get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine? I've read that the arithmetic, uh, the algorithm is if they let you win 1 in every 84 pulls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machine because the win is so celebratory. Like, if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission It's like the slot machine going off. The bells and the whistles are ringing, the lights are flashing, you're getting this huge hit of dopamine anticipation. It feels so good, and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times, and they're slowly draining your bank account. So if you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you, and suddenly You can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough, or nobody in your industry talks to you, or people, you know, pay the annoyance tax, make you just so you go away, and you got all these small wins, but they don't accumulate, they don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow they get along with people, they're not as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they got a better car, They're making more money. How did that happen? I think you're exactly right. This idea of when you're trying to come in and prove everything and push people away, like you said, you're only draining your own bank account, bank account of life. And I think that's wise wisdom. How do you not get triggered emotionally though in life? Like personally, if someone's coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things personally? Or do you? It's very natural to take things personally, but what I say before I want to take things personally is I'll say, I'll say, put it down, Jefferson. I'll say, put it down. Most of the time when we're taking something personally, we're picking something up that nobody asked us to carry, and we're just choosing to hold on to choosing to say this was meant for me, and that's not always the case. And too many times we get— somebody says, why are you taking this so personally? And they turn around, we're holding it all like, well, why are you holding that? I didn't ask you to hold any of that. So you, you get in a position to where the— how personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. And if I start to take things too personally— oh, well, somebody's just going slow in front of me on purpose, uh, they're showing up late because they want to show a sign to me— it's just all these different ways of treating things negatively. For the most part, you take it personally, and that's— you just drop it, drop that thought, because you're not giving them enough grace. Where did you learn to let things go and put things down? Did you have this calm about you as a kid, or did something over time help you realize, okay, I don't need to hold on to this baggage or stress? It's just been a— as if it's a blacksmith hitting on a piece of hot metal, man. I just— my whole life has been that. From really? Yeah, from my upbringing. A lot of attorneys in the family. I'm the oldest for— I love being the big brother. That meant I had to do a lot of mediating with siblings, a lot of— I mean, I was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom stories. And so they would teach you how to project and how to present and how to persuade and how to pace. I mean, it was awesome. And that just kind of translated with what I like. Some people are really good at math or economics or CPA, accounting, not me. This is, this is my thing. Sure, sure. Yeah. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.