How To Stop Someone From Talking Over You (3 Simple Steps) | Jefferson Fisher

Have you ever been talking out loud and while you're talking somebody says, "Well, you know what I think is," and they just run right over you?

What's the first thing you think?

You go, "Oh, okay, I guess I'll stop talking." Now all of a sudden they are controlling the floor. Now they're dominating the conversation and you really don't have another window and you feel defeated. What do you do when somebody is talking over you? Well, there's a wrong way to go about it and a right way to go about it, and I'm going to teach you both. Now, if you listen to the rest of this podcast, you are going to learn exactly how to stop it when somebody tries to dominate the conversation. You ready? The wrong way to go about this is when you start to yell and start to try and get more attention to you. Somebody starts interrupting you and the first thing you say is, "Oh, excuse me, am I interrupting you?" Or, "Oh, is the end of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?" That kind of trying to be cute language that never works. Let me tell you why it doesn't work. Because it makes you look desperate. So whenever somebody is dominating the conversation and interrupts you, the worst thing you can try and do is trying to take it back from them. When you try to out-attention them, that never works. It always puts you in the weaker position. Why? Because it looks like you're grasping for control. That is the wrong way to go about it. Instead, this is what I want you to do when somebody tries to dominate the conversation and talk over you. You ready? Number 1, I want you to continue talking exactly as you were. Keep the same volume, keep the same tempo, keep the same pace, keep talking just like you were. Do not stop. So whenever that person at the board meeting, wherever you are, they start to try and catch in and start to talk over you, "Oh, I think, well, what about," and they try and talk over you, Keep talking exactly where you are. This works because it shows a discrepancy between your very even keel, controlled, I'm going to continue talking no matter what you say, even if you interrupt me, I am planted, I am grounded, I do not care what you say. Whenever you keep that same plane and they are just, yeah, yeah, barking way up here trying to get your attention, trying to get everybody else's attention, it shows that discrepancy of you being very controlled and them trying to grasp for control. They're trying to get that attention from everybody else while you are the one staying calm and controlled. So number 1 is continue to talk. Don't stop talking. All right? Number 2, what I want you to do is resist the temptation to raise your voice. We always want to try and out-talk the other person. Whenever somebody starts raising their voice, it's very natural. It's very easy for us because we're trying to kind of jump over them. We're trying to— it's like playing checkers. You want to kind of jump over them. You want to get on top of the conversation. You want to dominate it in some way. Anytime you do that, all it does is escalate them to talk even more. That's how shouting matches happen. Like, if you watch the news and you see the talking heads on the news and the people that are just fighting, just arguing to argue, Or if you watch like sports commentary, maybe on ESPN or something, and you hear people taking two different positions and somebody's interrupting the other and somebody's interrupting the other and they just start kind of yelling back and forth. Who's listening? Nobody. What do you do? You change the channel. Nobody's learning anything. Nobody can get anything from that because it's just a power grab for attention. So you're going to resist that. All right. You're going to resist that by continuing to keep your volume exactly as it is. Why? Again, it shows that discrepancy. That's what you want. Number 3, we're just swinging right at it today. We're going straight for the throat. Anytime that that person is trying to dominate the conversation or interrupt or continue talking, you don't feel like you have a window. Let's say we're at a board meeting and they're just continuing to talk and you don't feel like you have a window into it. Here's the key. Use their name. People love to hear their name. There's no sweeter sound than the sound of their own name. So if they're talking and they're droning on and they've kind of taken away the conversation and gone on with their own voice and with their own subject, and they think what they're saying is the most important thing, I want you to use their name. Use their name. So let's say it's me. Let's meet. I'm the big bad guy right now, and I am— I just taken over the conversation. You're talking to me, and I go, well, you know what I think is, you, you ought to go, you know what you should do, and I just start going on away. In my own views, opinions, and I'm talking to an audience of one, if you need to get my attention, what I want you to say is, Jefferson. That'll pop my head quick. Jefferson. It's not raising your voice. You're not saying it angry. You're not saying it too, um, tender, almost too hesitant. You're going to say it strong. You're going to say it clear. Jefferson. If I keep talking, say it again. Jefferson. Even if you need to raise the volume a little bit, it's going to get my attention. It's going to get the other person's attention. They are going to stop because they hear their name. That's where— that's the window. You've now created the window into that conversation where I want you to use the phrase "talk over." Say something like, "It's not helpful when you talk over me," or "I feel like you're talking over me," or "I can't hear you when you talk over me." I say the very similar thing when somebody's interrupting you, which in this case is very related. I can't hear you when you talk over me. This episode is also brought to you by Element. Element makes hydrating easy, simple, and clean. If you're like me, you're always on the go, especially when I'm traveling. I need to do better about hydrating, especially in and out of airports, but it's not all that fun sometimes to just drink a bottle of water. So I use a little packet of Element. I've been using it for several months now, and I really like it. My favorite flavor is lemonade salt. I pour it right in. It's like lemon-lime. It's tangy, it's sweet, and it always gets the job done. I like it because there's no added dyes, there's no added sugars, just good clean electrolytes. LMNT is for people on a mission, whether you are a parent, an athlete, a business leader. And for all of my listeners, you get a free sample pack for every order that you get. So a free sample pack with every order. You can go to drinklmnt.com/jefferson and try it risk-free. That's drinklmnt.com/jefferson. /jefferson and try it risk-free. Anytime you're using that phrase, talk over, it's cluing them into exactly what they're doing. Sometimes people don't understand what they're doing. They don't realize what they're doing. It maybe is not on purpose, but that's beside the point. The, the, the fact is they're doing it, so you have to take action. You can't just be quiet and let them continue to talk, and, and you, and you feel less, then you feel more dismissed, and That kind of behavior is something that you need to catch immediately. You can't let it keep going on. Why? Because you're otherwise establishing a pattern of how they can treat you, how they can talk to you, that it's just a given that your opinion does not matter as much as theirs. But if you catch it— Jefferson, I can't hear you when you talk over me. It's not helpful for you to talk over me. Jefferson, are you interested in my thoughts, or do you want to talk over me? It depends how direct you need to be. You're the one who knows the personality of the person that you're dealing with. But that is exactly how I want you to handle when somebody is talking over you. I had something very similar when I was a young associate at a law firm. There was another associate of mine And she had great ideas, but she never felt like she could really share them in the meetings that we'd have. And we'd have other associate meetings, there'd be about 8 to 10 of us. And she didn't feel like she could really use her voice that way. She was much more hesitant, but still she had wonderful ideas. And there are times where I would kind of focus the conversation to tee it up so she could talk. But at the same time, I didn't always want to be the crutch that goes, oh, she'd let me help guide the conversation to her. So I talked to her about it, said, this is what I want you to do. The next time David starts to bounce over onto your conversation, I want you to use his name and watch what happens. Sure enough, while she's giving an idea of what she thinks we should try and do for the upcoming year, David immediately kind of goes on the attack. You ever had somebody who, in a meeting, specifically in a group, that just wants to always feel like they can go right for you. They can go right for you every time that for some reason you're, you're their scapegoat. For some reason, you're the outlet for them that they, as soon as you start talking, boom, there they, there they go. Something about it triggers you, triggers them. It was the same way in this relationship. And so she started talking, boom, David goes in. And First thing she had said, she did, was continue to talk exactly how she was. What did it do? It didn't make her look weak. It made him look weak because it looked like he was trying to get in in the conversation and she was totally ignoring it. Who we listened to? We started listening to her, not him, because it showed everybody in the room what he was doing was not acceptable as a group, as a community. He was now making himself kind of as the outsider. What she did next, as he continues to talk, is she used his name. She used his name and he snapped to attention. David, you're talking over me.

That's all she said. You know what he did?

Immediately apologized. Why? Because he's looking around and seeing everybody kind of agrees. Nobody was fighting. Nobody was sticking up for him. He's like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Never again did he do that. So I want you to really think about this. The next time that somebody is trying to dominate a conversation, somebody's trying to speak over you, number one, what I want you to do is to continue to talk. 2, resist the temptation to raise your voice to out-talk them, because that's a weaker position ultimately. 3, what I want to make sure that you do is realize the power of somebody's name. So if they keep on talking, use their name. It is going to snap their attention. It's going to make them stop, because they need to hear what comes after their name, why you're using the sweet sound of their name. That's your window to be able to communicate exactly what's happening into action. All right. Sound good? I love this kind of stuff.

It's awesome.

Quick, to the point.

You can do it.

I know that you can. If you feel like you lose control in conversation more than you keep it, this episode is for you. I'm making this specifically for you. What I'm going to teach you if you listen to this episode is exactly how to make sure that that shift of power returns back to you. I'm gonna make it short, I'm gonna make it sweet, and it's going to work. You ready? Control in conversation is a funny thing. You don't know how to describe it, but you know when you don't have it. You know when you could get it. It's in that time that usually in the silence of the conversation that as things are going, momentum starts to shift the other way, starts to swing the other way. And it feels like everything around you is kind of dissolving. Think of a time most recently in your life where you felt the power dynamic shift. Maybe it's somebody who's a superior, maybe it's somebody who intimidates you, maybe somebody you don't like, or maybe it's somebody you love and it still feels like you don't have something inside of you that's able to keep what's yours, and instead you feel like you're giving it all away— your needs, your wants, your, your power, your control, whatever it is, your truth— this episode is going to teach you exactly what to do. So how do we do that? Number 1, you're going to use questions that force a reset in the conversation. Now, what do I mean by that? Think of like your laptop or your phone. You, you have a button typically that has like a forced reset. It doesn't matter what's happening. Maybe you're on your phone and it freezes freezes, or your laptop and it freezes. What do you have to do? You have to kind of like hold the power button down until eventually what? Shuts off.

And then you're able to click it again and force restart it.

It's not doing it on its own. You are having to inject something into it. That's what these questions do. These are intelligent questions. These are not just the basic ones. These are questions that call for reflection in the conversation, that make people think. And that alone is going to stop the momentum, stop the shift momentum, the power that's going away from you, and bring that control back to you in a way, or at least, the very least, level the playing field. You say, "Jefferson, what do these questions sound like?" I'm going to tell you. These are questions that sound like, "Are you against us talking at a normal tone?" Are you against us talking about this calmly? Are you against us talking about this openly? Is it unreasonable for me to ask you to lower your voice? Is it unreasonable for me to assume that what I tell you can be kept in confidence? Or maybe it's, I need to know where we're going in this conversation. Can you help explain to me where we're going in this conversation? Where is this conversation going? So these are 3 keywords that I really picked up on, that I'm wanting you to pick up on. Is one, we are using the natural mind to think in the negatives. Meaning if somebody asks you to do something, typically you want to say no. Think of when you're kids. If I ask my daughter when she was 2 to go do something, the first thing she'd say is no. We have the same exact thing. It doesn't go away. We just have different filters as we age. Well, if I were to say, are you against us talking about this calmly? The first thing they're going to want to respond with is no. Are you against? No, I'm not against it. Then they will naturally lower it. Who's going to say yes, I'm against talking calmly? So you use that to your advantage. It makes them think. It's— if I'm going to say, are you against us talking about this in a way that's helpful? You hear how it makes you almost have to work through it backwards. It takes some time, even though it sounds simple, for somebody to hear it, reverse engineer it. That's the timeframe that you want. All right, that levels the playing field. That's the forced reset. That moment where people have to think and you get to now ask a question and they are now acquiescing to what you've asked for. Is it unreasonable? Most people will again say no to things. If I were to say, is it reasonable? To ask you to stop yelling, you know what's going to happen? They're going to say no, it's not reasonable. You know how upset I am right now. But if I were to say, is it unreasonable for me to ask you to lower your voice? They're not going to say yes, it is. They'll most likely say no. Why? Because no is easier to say in that moment where they reverse engineer the question. That's the shift of momentum. I need you to tell me where we're going in this conversation. Help me understand where we're going.

It's easy.

It's the— I am wanting to know where's the deadline, where's the finish line? Not the deadline, the finish line. Where do we go there?

All that's doing is making them think, hey, what am I talking about this for?

What am I talking about this for? It's jumping to that end. You are creating that moment where they have to pause. They respond to your question, which levels the playing field because that time stops the momentum. It is like like icing the kicker in football. If you watch American football, you know that a lot of times they will— if, or even in basketball, lots of different sports— when things are going a team's way, and especially in basketball, and somebody is— they're scoring a lot, the other team will typically call a timeout. Let's stop the momentum. They're getting too much going on. That's exactly what these questions do. Exactly what these questions do. And it gives you the control back in the conversation. Number 2, aside from intelligent questions that are making them stop, what I want you to think of is times where you can use phrases that are going to call moments of more reflection for the other person. Why? Because it is giving you that control back. There's not a statement I can tell you that's going to just force the control there. Questions do it. Questions do it. My favorite. And if you listen to this podcast, you know, is the phrase, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound dismissive? Did you mean for that to sound a little manipulative? Did you mean for that to embarrass me or offend me? The did you mean questions, what they do is they put a big spotlight on the other person's behavior, and it makes them have to think about what their motive was. What was my intent in asking this? What was my motive in asking this? And usually, if it's a truly negative motive. Like, did you say that to embarrass me? It forces them to now— like, they feel angst. They don't like that. They got heartburn now. They got called out. They got called out. And now what they have to do is shift it back. They have to stop. They have to hedge. They have to put on the brakes and realize, whoa, I'm getting called out right here. I don't like that. I'm going to start looking bad. I don't want that. And so they'll turn that trajectory, and what they do is they lower, and now you're more balanced in the conversations. Did you mean? Number 3, one of my favorite things to do in conversations, particularly when it feels like somebody else is trying to take control in the conversation, I will ask the question, are we on equal footing? It could be something very similar to that. Is this a conversation where we're balanced? I talk about things that are up and down. I want to make sure that we're walking side by side. And usually I'll ask that question. Are we walking side by side right now? I want to make sure I'm walking alongside you in this conversation. Whenever you're using words that call balance, even the imagery of balanced— are we, are we side by side here? Are we balanced? Are we on the same plane? Are we on the same footing? You can think of a thousand other ways to say it. What they do, these phrases, these questions that make the other person kind of slow down, they make them slow down on the conversation. That's what you want, and that's what's going to return the control back to you. There's nothing you can say that's going to say, hey, I want control back in this conversation. That's not going to happen. If it's a statement, what it does is it makes you look like you are vain. It makes you look like you're aggressive. It makes you look like you are desperate. It makes you— desperate's the best word for it. It makes you look like you're already lost it, right? Makes you look like you've already lost it. Before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about Monarch Money. Have you ever tried to keep track of all your finances in your head? It's not easy, right? A couple of checking accounts over here, a credit card, maybe a retirement fund that you swore that you checked on last spring, maybe some change under the couch or whatever, until suddenly it feels like everything that has to do about money is just some big cloud, some big jigsaw puzzle, and you've lost the pieces. And all of a sudden there is that fear and concern. That's natural. That's normal. That's where Monarch comes in to help you. It pulls everything together, all your accounts, your savings, your investments, even your spending, even your spending, and shows it all in one place. A simple dashboard, no spreadsheets, no guessing, just one big place that makes your money make sense, puts you in control rather than feeling like everything else is controlling you, without you having to spend hours and hours managing it. If you've been putting this stuff off, Monarch makes it easy. You'll see what's working, what's not working, and how to get there when you want to go faster. Don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks. Use code Jefferson at monarch.com in your browser for half your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com. Use the code Jefferson. And now let's get back to that episode. One of the best of the ways I can think of, rather than trying to grasp for that attention, control is also found in the silence. So many times in conversation, the most powerful move you can make is is no move at all, not saying anything. If you want to return conversational power back to you, often silence and pauses are the best thing that's going to do that. Pauses. If you— if somebody else is on a roll, you can call your own timeout. If they are being— and when I say on a roll, maybe they are being way too aggressive with you, then what you say is, I need to come back to this conversation when I'm in a better place. I'll come back to this conversation when I'm ready. I can tell I'm not in a good— I'm not myself right now. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. This is not a conversation that I need to be in right now. Pause it. Time it. Why did I say that?

Don't say it like that.

Take a timeout. Pause the conversation. And what you do is now the nerves settle. What happens is you're able to now look like you're the one that's in control of the conversation because you're not responding emotionally. You're not saying things you don't mean. You're not trying to say the "yeah, buts," "but what about," you're not trying to throw daggers and add these little paper cuts to the conversation that don't do anything. Control is also very much found in the silence and taking breaks. And what's that? That is you calling your shot of when and when you will not have conversation. Those 3 tips right there alone— see, I told you, short and sweet, rolled right into it— that's exactly what's going to help you the next time you feel like you're losing power in a conversation. So what do we talk about? Number 1, using intelligent questions. Are you against? Is it unreasonable? Show me where we're going. Anything related to that. Using the negatives, that's going to get somebody to have to think more reflectively about the conversation and stop the momentum. Two, we're going to use questions that talk about the intent and motive. That's going to again reflect that and make them pause. Three, largely I want to go right into that silence. That's number three. Silence is so often the very thing that will stop the momentum Bring control back because you are choosing your words when you want them and what you want to say. That's how you keep control. The key to handling conflict is not what you say, it is what you observe. In today's episode, I'm going to teach you exactly what I teach every single one of my legal clients. So if you've ever wondered what's it like to be a legal client of Jefferson, well, today is your chance to do that. Today's the lucky day. We're going to dive into how do you handle high-stress conflict situations and operate at a different level that you did not know you didn't know was possible. When we talk about difficult, high-stress conflict, I'm talking about not just the little bitty everyday arguments. I'm talking about something that's on your plate that's coming up right now. And you go, Jefferson, I don't know how to handle this. I don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'm going to shut down. I'm afraid I'm going to get nervous. I'm going to tell you exactly what I tell every single one of my clients. You ready? Number 1, it is not what you say. It is not anything to do with your mouth. It has everything to do with your nervous system. And the key here is instead of absorbing, you're observing. I'm gonna say it again. Instead of absorbing, you're observing. If you want to handle conflict at a different level of consciousness that you did not know you could handle it, it is going to be the key of not absorbing what they say, but observing what they say. All right, say with me, say with me wherever you are. It's not absorbing, it's observing. All right, what does that mean? I want you to think— this is just coming to me right now— I want you to think you're in the grocery store and you have your cart with you and you're going through, and you— or maybe, maybe you're somebody who likes a bag, you know, you have a I'm all for environmentally friendly stuff too, though it's hard here in Texas. And you have your cart and you just start putting things on the shelf or grabbing things off the shelf and putting it in your basket that you don't even want. You don't even want. Things just start to come in. You're like, yeah, you know what? I'm going to take their belittling opinion of me. I'm going to put it in my cart. You know what? I'm going to take their side-eye, put it in my cart. I'm going to take that disrespectful tone and put that in my cart. And you just keep going. All the way through aisle by aisle, and then you go to checkout, which is actually a very good word for this. Yeah, you mentally check out, and you know what checks in? Your nervous system, your emotions, and they just flood you in that moment. And in that point in time, you have absorbed, you have taken on so many things that there's nothing left for you. You're not observing, you're not seeing what's happening, you're just in it. You're just in it and you are helpless to it. It is no longer you who controls the emotions. The emotions are now controlling you, and there's no telling what you're going to say. There's no— nobody can guess what's going to come out of your mouth or what's going to happen because you're not there. You are checked out. So when I tell my clients, hey, when you're in the chair and somebody is— the other attorney is asking you questions, there's going to be a time where all of a sudden you're tempted to go in it. To, to go down the spiral and look inside and look at yourself and feel emotions and get heated, because you're going to start taking things personally. You're going to start absorbing what they're saying. No, no, no, no. If you want to handle this the right way, the proper way in conflict, you have to start observing. What does that mean? That means you're going to approach the conversation at a different level of consciousness that you have before. That means instead of going, how could he say that to me? Oh my gosh, I'm— and you start holding your breath and you start getting flustered and you get nervous, or maybe you tear up. It's because you're not seeing it as, huh, I wonder why he's asking me this. I wonder why she's saying that. I wonder where they're going with this. Look for the intent behind the words. The intent behind the words. When you are observing what's happening, In some sense, being an attached observer— I've said this before— where it's like you are sitting in a movie theater with your popcorn and you're watching the conversation take place. And that puts you in a different perspective of looking at the person who's talking to you and thinking, I wonder why that character is saying this. I wonder what the plot is. I wonder what the narrative is. I wonder what scene is coming up next. And you see how When you look at it that way, you have full control. You're now the director, the producer, the screenwriter of exactly what happens next. And then it's just action. And you're able to be in the state of mind of, hey, I'm observing the conversation. And from there, that gives you a chance to let your body regulate because you're not in it. You are seeing it. You're seeing the conversation. Number 2, what I teach every one of my clients is something that's at the forefront of my book. The next conversation, argue less, talk more. And rule number 1, when I say say it with control, and that is let your breath be the first word that you say. I've been talking a little fast here in this podcast, which is unlike me. I think I'll tell you why. I drank too much coffee this morning. Too much coffee, admittedly. Usually I talk pretty slow. All right. Can you hear how just the way I'm talking now and how I'm slowing down just a little bit might in a micro percentage also slow you down a little bit? Maybe, you know, the neural activity in your brain is starting to slow down just a little bit. Maybe you feel a little bit more relaxed. At me speaking a little more slowly. When I put breath before my words, it is making sure that I am regulating myself. And even more importantly, I am showing you. I am showing you that I am regulated, that I am in control. And what I'm about to say, I've chosen. I've chosen those words. Makes a very big difference. So when I teach my clients, hey, don't get wrapped up. Don't try and step on somebody's question. Don't try to interrupt them. Let them get it out. And then you observe the question, observe the interaction, take a breath, and then choose what you want to say. You are in complete control of the pace of any conversation. Nobody can make you say anything you don't want to say, and nobody can make you say it at a time you don't want to say it. That choice is yours. That choice is yours. And I cannot tell you how many clients I have seen come to find, accept, and grow in their own power and their own sense of value and worth of, wow, I get to choose if I say anything. And you know what, if I want to wait 30 seconds before I say something, I can do that. It is a freeing feeling to know, "Hmm, no, I'm going to think about this. Let me chew on this question for a second." Just that alone, the ability to say that says, "Oh no, no, I'm operating at a different level you don't know about. No, I'm not who you thought I was. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to choose my words, and I'm going to show you that what I'm about to say is something that I absolutely mean, and I'm saying with intention. All right, can you feel the difference? Say, what kind of breath are we talking about? I've run through this breath before. It's always good to do it because it's something that is good for me too. It's a conversational breath, and what it does, it's based on a physiological sigh, which is a double— well, that kind of sounded weird— double inhalation. Double inhalation. So you're breathing You're inhaling twice. All right, so you ready with me? We're going to breathe through your nose wherever you are. Just do it. Don't worry about it. People might look at you. Don't worry.

Ready?

We're going to breathe in through your nose about 2 to 3 seconds. One more at the top. And then let out through your nose. My guess is you're starting to come down a little bit. Maybe your shoulders relaxed a little bit.. It's the feeling that mimics a sigh. When you use that kind of breath, and I promise you, you continue to do it while I'm talking right now, you'll see that you get really good at it. You can do it anytime. The most crucial part for me is when I teach my clients to do it is before they answer the question, just take 2 seconds or 1 second. What we like to say here in the South is just say one Mississippi. In other words, in your head, you're going to go Mississippi. Like, well, you can use your own name if you have a long name, you know, just whatever it is. It's to get you in the mindset of taking a beat, a moment. Take that breath and choose what you want to say. It is always going to be better. All right. Let's be honest. There are people out there right now you don't like. They come to mind immediately. And the truth is, there are also other people that don't really like you. But how do you communicate with these people when you have to be with them at work or around the house or in your community? How do you talk to them? This episode is all about how to talk to somebody who doesn't like you. And I'm not exempt from this, by the way, the whole people not liking you thing. There are people that I can think right now come to mind that I don't like. And I know that there are people listening, maybe probably not listening, but maybe some they don't like me, and that's okay. That's normal because we're not meant to be for everybody, right? There are people in your life that if you were for everybody, you're kind of probably doing something wrong. There's going to be somebody who isn't a fan of what you're doing. That's, that's kind of a good sign in my world if somebody is not always a fan of what you're doing, because it means that you're, you're on the right track, you're pushing, you're persevering. Not everybody has to agree with what you're doing. That's my, that's my point. How do you handle it? How do you handle it? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you or you don't like them? You ready? Number 1, treat them like they like you. Talk to them like they like you. I know that sounds counterintuitive. That's the point. There are people that when you come into the room and you know good and well they don't like you, what they're looking for is even more reasons not to like you. But when you start treating them just as normal as can be, like nothing ever happened in the past, it's going to not only bother them, which is pretty cool, it's, it's also going to kind of go, huh, wait, this is not, this is not what I thought. And sometimes they'll actually feel bad that they even ever had the impression that they didn't like you. It could work either way. The point is, don't give someone a reason to not like you because that, that pulls down your Integrity. You be you is my point. You be you. Don't worry about if they like you or don't like you. So treat them in conversation just as pleasant as I'm talking to you now. Big disclaimer here. You ready? Big disclaimer. This is not about being fake. What I'm not telling you is to be fake and pretend that everything's fine. That's not it. I can be cordial with you. I can be kind. I can be polite. I can be respectful without ever having to do anything with whether I like this person, prefer this person. I'm a fan of this person or not. You just be you. All right? That's all that is. So if somebody is acting like they don't like you, treat them even more so like they like you. Don't worry about what they're doing. You concentrate on what you're doing.

Right?

And here's the key. Here's the key takeaway, and this is probably one of my favorite points, is if they don't like you, they're not that important. Most likely they're not that important. If they genuinely don't like you, they're not that important. Why? Because they don't— that means they don't know you well enough. They're not in a place where they can really hold any kind of judgment of you that's, that's really going to weigh on you. So what do you do? Number one, treat them like they like you. What happens when you're around somebody and you know you don't really like them and they don't really like you, and you decide to kind of shift or shirk them off or act a certain way? All it does is double down on their decision not to like you. All it does is, in their mind, they're going, oh, I knew I didn't like this person, because they're— they're— all they're doing is looking for ways to justify, validate imprint, that impression in their mind of that they don't like you. So when you turn the tables and you act pleasant, respectful, you be you, that messes with their head and they go, huh, okay, maybe that wasn't the right impression that I was supposed to have. Maybe that wasn't the right impression I was supposed to have. Number 2, if you can't do that, if you go, no, Jefferson, look, I like you, man, but no, I'm not I'm not doing that. Here's what I want you to do. Go neutral. Just go flat. That means I want you to use neutral statements when you're talking to them and you don't want the conversation to go anywhere. Use words that are a stop to the conversation that you can't do anything with. These are neutral words like, got it, noted, understood. Yep. Interesting words that nobody can— you can't continue to take those words and go anywhere. So Stay neutral in the conversation. If you really can't be at a place where you can be pleasant around this person, if you, if you're really deciding that you're just going to go sour, which I get it, we're normal and human, at least try to go neutral where there's nothing negative you're going to be doing. There's nothing positive you're going to be doing. So use statements that keep the conversation neutral. You're not inflaming anything. You are going to use statements that really can't do anything with. So if they talk to you, instead of having this attitude or making things worse or just confirming their belief for whatever reason that they don't like you or you don't like them, it's got it noted. Thank you. Understood. Appreciate it. You see how I'm not even using full sentences? It's not I appreciate that. It's appreciate it. Cool. Using very shortened versions that are very neutral, very flat. Nobody can do anything with them. Now, before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about Momentous. Momentous is a sponsor of this podcast because I use their stuff. It's a supplement company. About a year ago, I decided to really care about what I'm putting in my body. I'm a father. I'm now an author. I'm a speaker. I'm an attorney. I wear a lot of hats, and that means I need to go, hey, wait a second. How was my health? And so when I think of what I'm not getting in my diet, I know that Momentous helps me with that. I take, I take a lot of their products long before they ever sponsored this podcast. They have a whole sleep stack that helps me sleep better. I have things like their creatine, their proteins, their omega-3s to help me with my workouts. I have their magnesium, which is very big and has helped me even with, um, any stress and anxiety. So it's, it's good stuff. And I know, like you. I don't have time to research every little supplement. Momentous makes it easy, easy to order. The products are clean, it's effective, and it's trustworthy. Go to livemomentous.com, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 35% off your first subscription. Momentous— when your moment matters, make it count. And now back to the episode. Number 3, keep the sarcasm, the snarkiness at home. All right. Instead, stick to facts. If it's somebody who does not like you, instead of reinforcing and emboldening that decision of them— I think that's a word, emboldening. Let's say it is. You get my point. Instead of that, just stick to facts. Here's what I mean. Let's say you're in an office at a meeting and somebody comes in and you know, you don't really like them. They don't really like you. And they ask a question and they're like, what did I miss? And you say, well, I mean, if you were here, you would know. That's sarcasm. That does nothing but to make you feel better. And it's going to make them dislike you even more. Where you come in and you go, well, I mean, it would be nice if somebody did, or, well, if you were around, or if you really cared. You find out these passive-aggressive comments— stop that. So just empty out the passive-aggressive comments. They don't do anything. I know in that moment, because you kind of want to jab them, right? You want to go, yeah, I know you don't like me, so let me just poke you in the eye with this stick. Don't, don't Don't do that. All right. Keep that home. Instead, just stick to facts. Facts as reasons why you're here and why you're going to leave at some certain future. So let's say instead, if they ask for the time, you're just going to give the time. Don't give the snarkiness. If you come in, say, I'm here to discuss this, or I need to talk to you about why. There's not a, okay, well, I got to talk to you and I guess, okay, I guess we're doing this. So here's the thing. Get rid of all that. Get rid of all of it. It's not serving you. It's not making you a better person. Instead, just stick neutral to the facts. There's so much in this because it's natural for us to not like people. Again, if they don't like you, they're not that important, and that's okay. And I, I can get down with the idea of if you don't have somebody who's rooting against you, it means you're not going towards something important enough. Like, if you don't have— if, if, if you're not chasing something, maybe it's a business that you're building, maybe it's a content that you're trying to create. If you have people that are the naysayers, the people that are, uh, doubting you, then typically it means, in my mind, your goals aren't big enough. Yeah, you need to reach for these goals that are so big and you feel like you're doing something so important that of course you're going to have people who are on the other side of it. It's, it's, it's a healthy, it's a healthy thing. I know it's hard to kind of think in that mindset, but that's, that's at least my outlook. Means if you don't have people that are naysaying, it's, it's because your goals aren't, aren't big enough. Now, there are going to be people out there that aren't going to be fans of you just for whatever reason. It doesn't matter. Typically they're jealous. Typically they, they have some kind of preconceived notion. They, they gossip about you behind your back. And we've addressed a lot of these topics in the podcast, in the podcast episodes to come. But the point here is, don't give somebody a reason to not like you just because you can. Don't allow them to change who you are. Don't allow them to lower your character or your integrity because of some preconceived notion. And, and here's this other truth. You ready? Opinions change. There are people that I used to not like, and now I'm like, you know what, that was kind of dumb of me back then. I, I actually like this person. Or vice versa, and it flips. You think somebody's great and you realize I got to know them and, uh, kind of empty inside. I don't, I don't agree. This doesn't match and align with my values anymore. People change. My guess, if you're listening right now, there's somebody that you weren't really a fan of, and then now you're like, I kind of like this person. It goes the same thing with siblings. You grew up as siblings. Like, I know two sisters who hated each other, and now they're like the best of friends. It happens. Coworkers, you're like, I'm not really a fan of them. At the end, you're, you're great. Why? Because time changes things. Always keep your head above the water. Operate a frequency that says, I'm going to be true to me regardless of what anybody else is going to do. So what do you do? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you. Number 1, act like they do. Treat them like they like you. Talk exactly like they like you. Why? Because that is your choice, and you're not allowing their— your preconceived notion of what they think about you to control any of your behavior. Are you with me? Good. 2, if you can't do that, keep your emotions in a vacuum. That means you're going to use neutral, flat statements that don't do anything Like, thanks, got it, understood. It's not the best, but at least it's going to keep you flat. Number 3, keep all the passive-aggressive sarcastic comments at home. Things that are going to flare it up, leave that alone. Instead, just operate on the facts. Why you're there, what you need to talk about, get in, get out, get safe. And keep in mind, opinions always change.

'calm down,' 'you're too sensitive,' 'you're overreacting.' Most of us women have felt completely invalidated and dismissed by those words. So how on earth can we respond with confidence without losing our cool?

If you want to feel confident, then you have to do assertive things. You have to assert yourself. Confidence is more of a feeling. Like if I were to say, 'Hey, I need you to feel scared right now,' you'd have a hard time doing it without me being scary. Same thing to say, I need you to be confident. You're gonna have a hard time feeling it without doing something that's going to trigger that. So it's the assertive statements that you can use right into your sentences. So for example, if it's that idea of you're being so sensitive, it's the having the patience to know, okay, I know I can say something assertive right here, and that is, no, I'm sensing you're being a jerk. You know, if somebody says it's just a joke, I'm just sensing you're not that funny.

Funny.

It's that idea of you flipping their words and having the wherewithal in that moment to say something assertive that will then, in a positive feedback loop, give you the feeling of confidence. And then with that confidence, you want to say more assertive things.

But when someone's being dismissive of your feelings, if you don't know how to be assertive, you absolutely may say something that they can then use to either weaponize against you. Yeah. Or they can just then use that same statement again to prove their point. Yes. As in like, see, I told you you're too sensitive.

Right.

In those situations with any kind of personality, they often tee something up for you to grab. So they say something ugly. What they're doing is offering you something and saying, why don't you go ahead and take it? Go ahead. And once you take it, once you have that response of that emotional, I can't believe you, I can't, and you have that big reaction, now they got you. You fell for the trap, and now all of a sudden they kind of— they take the joy in that response that you gave, that hit of dopamine that they received from that control. And so now when you react, you are giving away your power. Often it's the silence and the very small steps that say, I'm in control and you aren't. It's a very— it's a weird mindset. We have to flip the idea of when you are sending that zinger right back at them, you're actually weakening your position, not increasing it.

Okay, so because that is exactly what we do. We go, okay, well, I'm going to give as good as I'm going to get. And that feels sometimes in the moment quite empowering. As a woman, it's like I've got my own back, I can stand up for myself. But to your point, what you end up doing is weakening your position. Yes. So you say we have one of the best great secret weapons of pausing.

Yes.

So talk to me about in that moment, if you start to feel the heat, you start to boil, your blood's boiling because someone's being disrespectful to you, they're dismissing you, take me through the exact steps of how do you pause, how do you collect your mindset, and then come up with a good response.

Yeah, so what I talk about is difference between short pauses and long pauses. And when somebody says something disrespectful, what you want is a long pause that's somewhere between about 5 to 8 seconds. It's just a few seconds of Allowing the other person to hear what they said. Because let's say you said something negative to me. Visually, one, it's going to give me the feeling of confidence when I see that word come and just fall to the ground and understanding I don't have to pick that up. And it's kind of in that silence you're looking at it going, is that what you wanted to say? Does that feel good?

That right there?

Are you looking at what I'm looking at? And that right there automatically makes them feel more powerless and you feel more in control. In that pause, you are being their echo. You're being their mirror. So often, if somebody were to say something ugly and I say nothing at all, often what they do is they say it and hear it back in their mind. And often people might apologize and go, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, or they rephrase it. Or you can ask the person, what's that supposed to— these are questions of I call intent. So was that supposed to hurt me? See how a question doesn't respond in the way of sending that zinger back at them. It's a way of answering without answering. Did you mean for that to hurt me? Was that supposed to embarrass me? And you see how the power is not sending the zinger to say, I'm going to make you hurt even worse. The power is when they throw a punch, you go, that didn't hurt. So That's the control that you have in that moment.

And I assume tone matters because even just the way you said it was so calm. I assume that was supposed to hurt me.

Yeah.

Why did you say that? Versus like, I assume that was supposed to hurt me.

Yeah.

Why did you say that? Exactly. So take me through how it can be perceived as you're losing control versus actually you have control of this, the conversation.

Yeah, I mean, you can use just what we did as an example. So if I were to say, you can't talk to me like that, are you kidding me? Versus, "You cannot talk to me like that." Now which one sounds more in control?

Oh, definitely the second one.

Definitely the second one. And nothing changes except that you're speaking a lot slower, which shows I'm in control of my words, and it also shows I'm in control of my actions. Because when that fight or flight kicks in, which you know all about, you get that emotion, your heart starts to beat, you get nervous, you start to shake, your voice might tremble a little bit, get tears in your eyes, it's just emotional flooding. You're telling your body in that moment, when you're not taking a big pause and a big breath, you're telling your body, I have a lot to fear right now, I have a lot to be afraid of, so I have to be extreme, I have to say that extreme thing, I have to go all out. Versus when you slow down and you speak slowly and even in a lower tone, you're not only conveying control, you're also telling your body this— there's nothing to fear here. There's no— nothing to threaten me. I'm safe. And that right there is an incredibly powerful move, that you can flip that script on them to show that there's nothing here that's threatening me in some way. So that's what a lot of the pausing does, is it gives a lot of space for them to realize that what they wanted is not what they're going to How I see it is when you say that ugly thing, you put it out on a ledge like you exposed it, and you're hoping, you're praying that somebody will take it. Have you ever thrown an insult and then they didn't give it back? Probably, yeah. And then you go, I kind of feel like a jerk later. You realize, oh, that didn't hit, and then you feel kind of stupid because what you sent out, it didn't get the response. You didn't get the control, and now you feel kind of silly about it. So That's how you do that. So if I had to break that down, it'd be: 1, you want to add about a 5 to 7-second pause, a long pause. 2, you want to do it long enough to make them hear their words back. Often you can just repeat what they said back to them. So if you said something ugly like, "You ever seen you're an idiot?" and I waited 5 seconds, I said, "I'm an idiot?" Perfect. 3 is you're allowing them to show you can ask questions of intent. Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt me or offend me? And oftentimes that's all you really need to do to realize it's not gonna be that fun for them the second time around.

Oh my God, that's so good. And then in talking about the pause and the power of it, you also talk about in your book the power of people forcing you to not pause, and it's their way almost of asking your question like rushing you to answer as a way of them controlling you.

Yeah. So in legal depositions, attorneys do it all the time. We want to get you responding very quickly. And when you feel pressured, you often do. A lot of the clients that I have, I have to train them on let them get all their question out, give it a pause, then you say something. Because otherwise you want to, hey, did you go the other day? Yes, I did. They like to cut in because they just want it over. Same thing in any argument that you have. You also want that over because you want the threat to go away. But where you find the moment of control and power for them is when you can add distance between what they said and your response. In that distance where you're able to show them that there's nothing here that's really going to defeat me in some way. And so what I'd like to focus on is when you are trying to rush your words while you're saying them is you're afraid, because when you get afraid, you like to rush your words. And when you get to slow down, you're in a much better position almost every single time. Confident people know they don't have to say anything. Insecure people always have something to say, always have something to add. Insecurities are loud. Confidence is very quiet. There's a very big difference in that. People in your community would want to grasp that idea of I don't have to say anything that I don't want to say. Should I not want to answer that text for 10 minutes? Maybe I don't want to respond to that text for the whole day? Then don't. There's no pressure or obligation that you have to send it immediately. You don't have to send that full paragraph. You wait. Wait a day. It's going to be a whole lot better, and you're the one that's going to feel more controlled and send the message that you're in more control of yourself.

I, um, I often write texts and I don't send them.

Yeah.

And I'm like, all right, if you still feel like this is 24 hours, send it. That's smart. I never end up sending them ever.

Yeah.

Um, what I've done is I went deep into my community and I was looking at all the things that we women struggle with, um, here at Women of Impact. And I've pulled some scenarios for you if you're okay with helping us through navigating how we would You're like, sure, I don't know what I'm getting myself into. Okay, so, and there's some scripts, if you will, and I realized that in my community, maybe you found this, there were two almost different types of ways of saying things. Number one is a question, number one is a statement, and so they sometimes land differently. So I would love to hear how you think through them. So one is, um, when someone is just utterly inappropriate to your face, sometimes one of the questions I get all the time, and a lot of women do, is, why don't you have kids yet? Yeah, sometimes that's very inappropriate. If you can't have children, that's heartbreaking of a question. If you've decided not to, it feels like sometimes it's a challenge to your femininity and your womanhood. Um, and so when someone asks that, how would you suggest someone could reply with confidence?

Do you feel like they have to No, no. I mean, part of confidence is the understanding that you need to stop justifying everything. You can say no without justifying it. You can say anything you want without having to justify a reason for it. No is, as they say, a complete sentence. So in that scenario, somebody gets asked about, you know, why aren't you having— why haven't you had any kids, or won't you have more kids? One, that is an extremely offensive appropriate question. In that kind of situation, reading the room, you could do one of two things. One, you could ask the question, and I would begin with "is it." I like asking things with "is it" because it props it up in their side of the fence. For example, is that something you need to know? Is that something important to you? Is that something you care about, or is that something you should care about? So If you begin your question with "is," it poses a question for them that they now have to respond, and most of the time the answer is going to be no, or if you need to turn that into a statement, and it could be something as, "That's not something you should know." As simple as that. I feel like when it comes to an inappropriate question, the more inappropriate, the more room you have to turn that question into a statement. I'm saying that's an inappropriate question.

I love it.

That's a great question. That's such a straightforward way of responding. But then sometimes it can be a statement that is offensive but doesn't leave you really any room. So I'd love to know how— again, we will get this a lot— why haven't you put on weight?

Hmm. Any time they get questions about their exterior, what I like to recommend is that they own it, whatever it is they need to love on themselves. So whenever somebody gets a question about weight, their appearance, my recommendation is for them to own it. So, hey, it looks like you've been putting on some weight. Yeah, I've been hoping so. I think I look awesome. I love how I look. It's just owning it.

Yeah, I love that. It's so hard though. I was 19 years old and I was I was known to be very skinny, like, as a kid. And then I blossomed and my body started to change and I put on weight. And my roommate's mother walked past me and was like, wow, you got so fat. I remember this to this day. I've had an unhealthy relationship with food. A lot of those comments can not just be a jab. It can be something that you remember for the rest of your life and your identity gets built on it. But sometimes it can be so damn hurtful that you take it personally, you really take it to heart.

And do you see how even in a little instance like that, maybe she didn't mean it, but you took it a lot differently. And so in that, just that scenario can prove that it hurts and you carry it as much as you decide that it hurts and how much you want to carry. And so even when you say, well, I've remembered it forever, Well, that wasn't her choice, it was yours. And so every time it's that ability to say, okay, well, if I have the choice to remember this, I also have the choice to let it go.

I'm gonna pause for a second because thank you, you metaphorically just slapped me around the face and I love it. And I really mean that. Like, I, I think sometimes wake-up calls are great.

Yeah.

Um, I'm such a person of growth and evolution and it's clearly something that has stuck with me because I just said it on this show, right? I mean, this is when I was 18. And so thank you for being that honest. I always want that hard truth, even if it's hard to hear. Yeah. So putting the onus on me is a beautiful gift you've just given me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, of course.

Still got a few more though.

Yeah, let's keep going. What about deflecting blame with sarcasm? As an example: Sorry, I guess I just can't do anything right.

Yeah.

When you want to handle a passive-aggressive comment, often what I like to say is you need to start your response with "sounds like" or "seems like." "Sounds like there's more to that." Chris Voss has an awesome line that I love, and it says, "Seems like you had a reason for saying that." "Sounds like you have a reason for saying that." It just kind of calls them out of, hey, you're not coming out of the gate, you're not being open with this. And I like, sounds like there's more to that. That's probably one of my favorite go-tos is sounds like there's more to that because they'll share almost always. Another one that I like to use with passive-aggressive people is should I read into that?

I do that a lot with texts.

Oh, should I read into that? And almost every time you'll get a very clear answer of, oh no, no, no, I just, I was just texting and I know I was reading the context in it, but often it's, should I read into that? That shortness, that it's a weird word that you threw in there.

But going to what you just said, that most people go, oh no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's all I— most the time I assume that's BS.

They actually do mean something sometimes. Yes, but, but that's the point is you called it out, right?

Okay, so, so the fact that they're backing off, you don't then proceed, you just back off as well? Do you? I go actually a little harder. Yeah, recently. So passive aggressiveness for me was such a trigger because I was like, I don't know how— like, it feels like they're insinuating something but not quite saying it. And then if I bring it up, I used to be then say, oh, you're being paranoid, like it's all you. And so the blame keeps coming back to you. Yeah. So then that makes you not speak up when someone's being passive-aggressive. I realize that doesn't help. I feel like that is a bit of a bullying technique.

Yeah.

Um, and so I started to call people on it by saying like, what do you mean by that statement?

Yes.

And then they would back off and I'm like, 'But what did you mean?' Like, 'No, no, no, no, no, but what did you actually mean?' Yeah, you like to take it further. Only because I have noticed, and I would love— you're the professional, so I want to know your opinion— but only because I notice it doesn't eliminate the problem. They're just going to be snide and passive-aggressive in a different way next time. So do you advise to not then keep going?

Yeah, depends. I mean, I think that I like to view it as If there's like two negatives of a magnet, like I'm just showing you right now when I say something like, sounds like there's more to that, and you kind of go away, and then we say, no, no, really, you go ahead and tell me, what did you mean by that? What did you mean by that? I mean, now I'm starting to come on. When they said something passive-aggressive for a reason, it just wasn't, didn't feel comfortable to them, and you pressing more and more is not going to make them feel more.

Comfortable.

And what you want is them to open up, not clam up. And so often you could even use it as, sounds like there's something for us to talk about. For example, we talked about in text, somebody sends a text and it didn't make sense to you, and you decided it was a rude text. If you even responded, did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound short? I use that a lot. Did you mean for that to sound short? They go, no, no, I didn't mean that. Let's say they did, like you said, they really did want that I'm short. And then you start to press, no, no, I want to know, like, so what did you really mean by it? If you didn't say that, what did you mean? It's, it's going to make them feel like they're backed into a corner, and nobody backed into a corner wants to open up more. It's, it's going to fight or flight. Often it's much better to say, okay, mental note, let me bring this up at a time that we can talk and have real space and dialogue on it.

That's so good. It didn't really feel right in my body when I was doing it, but it definitely felt like I was, um, having my own back. I'm such a goal-oriented person. It's like, what am I trying to get to? What's the goal? And then how do I get there? And you talk about that a lot in your book. It's like, know the goal of the conversation first. How often do we not know the goal and we just go into something, and then when we leave the conversation, we never actually end up getting what we want?

Exactly.

I, I'll even give you a sentence that I've used many, many times, and you're going to love the next time this happens. Is you're gonna respond, "I love to talk about it." And what you're saying is, no, this topic right here, let's keep going on it. And that's passive-aggressive. People don't like that 'cause they're getting called out. But if you were to even respond, "I'd like to talk more about it, happy to talk more about it," what you're sending is two things. One, I'm addressing what you're saying without responding to the passive-aggressiveness. And the other side is I'm showing you here that we have an open window to act. Actually have some dialogue. That's gonna be their decision to walk through that door or not.

If there's one thing that I personally struggle with, it's feeling defensive. It's natural, but it's also the number one killer of conversation. If you feel defensive, you shut everybody off. And if they feel defensive, they're not gonna listen to anything else you have to say. On today's episode, it's all about how do you handle defensiveness? If there's one thing about defensiveness, It's that it's so easy to do. It's just biological. It's natural because anything that you perceive as a threat or a challenge, you fight against. It is natural as part of your fight or flight. On any argument that you're going to have, there are two sides. There is an ignition side and a cooling side of it, and that ignition is triggered by things that trigger you. So anytime somebody challenges your opinion or disagrees with you, your body perceives that as a threat that says, "I don't like that." Somebody gives you an opinion and you disagree, your body says, "I don't like that." Somebody's telling you what to do, your body goes, "I don't really like that." So every time that happens, there is a desire to push back against it. If somebody's telling you "Hey, you need to go do this," you automatically want to go, "No, I don't." If somebody says, "Oh, you were behaving this way last night. You were in a bad mood last night," you automatically want to go, "No, I wasn't. Who are you to tell me how I was or how I'm feeling or what to do?" We preserve that element of autonomy within ourselves. And so anytime you feel defensiveness, it is just so reactionary., and it's nearly impossible to stop from the get-go, but there are some tips and techniques that I'm going to give you to make sure that you know how to handle it in the moment. Number 1, to keep yourself from getting defensive, let their words fall to the ground. This is what I mean. In case you forgot, other people's words are not your responsibility to carry. It's not tennis or volleyball. You don't have to throw anything back. So instead, you're just going to take a breath and imagine that their words fall to the ground, and you get to decide whether to pick them up or just leave them there. And you're going to find more often than not, you just want to leave them there. Number 2, get rid of beginning your sentence with "you." When it comes to responding in an argument, the word "you" is very triggering because it's you telling them what to do, how they should behave, what they need to say, what they need to do, and they're going to get defensive. So instead of "you," we're going to tweak that to Start with I. When you start with I, it's not nearly as triggering. Number 3, you're gonna use phrases that help dampen defensive responses. Responses like, I agree, that's something that we should consider, or that's helpful for me to know, thank you. When you use those phrases, it's telling them that they're getting acknowledged and they're not going to get defensive. What I try to do when somebody tells me something and I can tell that I'm getting defensive, I try and imagine like what they just told me was a piano note, right? You ever heard somebody just hit one key on the piano and they just leave their finger there and you just let that note sustain, is what they call it? You let that note just end by itself to where it eventually just falls and drops. The note is no longer heard. It— that's how I imagine it. So when somebody says something that I don't like. Instead of having this very reactionary response, this very defensive response that I know is not worth my energy and time, I picture in my mind that it has fallen, the words just fell out of their mouth and they're on the ground, and I get to look at them and go, is this worth my time? Is this worth my energy? Often when I start to get involved in it and I start to pick it up, I tell myself this phrase that I use, small talks, and that is I tell myself, put it down, Jefferson. Put it down, Jefferson. It's not worth your time. What are you doing? Put it down. I say those things to myself and it helps me. It controls my emotions when I can inject my breath, let my breath be the first thing that I say, and have that slow reaction and go, you know what? No, I don't have to send that back. I don't have to hit that back over the net. I don't have to take a swing at this. Just let it go by. There's, there's not an umpire. Just let them have a bad pitch. They threw a ball, so what? You don't swing at them. You don't swing at those. So when I have that kind of mentality, it, it helps me in a very specific way because defensive behavior is just biological. It is innate within every one of us that we naturally want to defend things. We want to defend our intelligence. We want to defend our credibility. We want to defend our own ideas and opinions, and when somebody is conflicting with those, we want to put our wall up, to put our shield up, to protect that. That's why so often when you start to say things and you can tell somebody's fighting and fighting and fighting, they are defending against their own ideas. They are protecting their house, so to speak. That's why that whole idea of having something to learn instead of something to prove, having something that's open rather than something that's pointing at them, is going to open up the dialogue so much better and not going to have these defensive reactions. So anytime that somebody tells you something and you start to feel that tension in your body that's preparing you for that fight or flight, just imagine that their words are falling to the ground. You're going to take a few seconds and decide for yourself, is this something I need to respond to? And in truth, it's a cycle, what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I say something and they get defensive, well, more often than not, they're going to say something back, and then I'm going to get defensive. And all of a sudden, we're just saying things that are hurting each other, and we both have our walls up. When it comes to defensive behavior, One of the worst things you can do is begin your sentence with "you." If I were to tell you right now, "You seem like you're in a bad mood," or if I were just to be very blunt, "You're in a bad mood," most likely you're going to disagree with me, or you're gonna correct me. You're gonna adjust what I just told you. You're gonna say, "No, no, I'm not," or, "Well, I know, I'm just— I'm irritated right now." You're not going to accept that I said you're in a bad mood because you are is assumption-based. It is trying to tell somebody what they're doing, what they need to be doing. You're not listening to me. It gets people defensive because what they want to say is, yes, I am. I am listening to you. Versus me saying, I feel like you're not listening to me. I feel like I'm not being heard. When you change you to I, it's not nearly as defensive because I'm not assuming that you're doing anything. If I were to say, "You don't even care. You don't care." Automatically, you're gonna— what you're thinking inside is, "Yes, I am. I do care." People don't like to be told that they are something or they feel a certain way or they're doing something. We don't like that. So, when you just easily turn it from instead of beginning your sentence with "you," change it to "I." Change it to "I." It's just— it's that easy. I can't make it any more simple. Than that. When somebody's getting defensive, the most likely culprit is because you started a sentence with "you." I'm also guilty of that. All right, anytime that somebody's getting defensive in an argument with me or a conversation, I can go back in my mind and go, "I started that sentence with 'you.' I shouldn't have done that." When I rephrase it with an "I" and say, "Hey, can I start over?" I feel like I wasn't heard. I'm beginning with I, and it's going to smooth it out a whole lot better. So easiest transition here is anytime you say something to keep somebody from getting defensive, instead of you, just replace it with I. Instead of, you can't talk to me like that, it's, I don't respond to that volume. I don't respond to that tone. You make it about you yourself as a saying, I, I feel this way, and take it away from that other person, and they're not going to get defensive. Now, I also want to make sure that I equip you with some phrases that are going to help dampen defensive behavior. If you're already in that argument and things are already going and you go, "Oh man, I really need to just calm things down for a second," here's some phrases that I want you to use real quick. One of my favorites is beginning your sentence with "I agree." Now listen to me, I'm not saying that you're agreeing with what they said, all right? Instead, you're just agreeing that the discussion needs to be had. Instead of thinking micro, go macro. So if somebody's communicating, instead of saying— getting all defensive and arguing with them, I can just say, "I agree that this is worth discussing." You feel automatically that's just going to settle the conversation. It's going to smooth it out. They're going to lower their voice, lower their tone. The spikes aren't going to be as pointy. You say, "Hey, I—" I agree we need to talk about this. Simple as that. Begin your sentence with, I agree. I agree that this subject is worth discussing. You hear how different that is? They're going to feel acknowledged, like, okay, this is— I'm not having to fight. I don't have to fight and put up all the spikes all the time. Another that I like to use is, that's helpful to know. Tell them that they've been helpful. And when somebody feels like they've been helpful, it feels like they're involved in their own mutual understanding, that they have helped teach you things. That's why I also like using the phrase "what I've learned." "By listening to you right now, I've learned I have some work to do," or "I've learned that this topic is really important to you." That's one I've used often. "I've learned that this topic is important to you." Just by them hearing "I've learned," they feel like they've taught something, and it's going to lower is going to lower all the walls because now they feel like they're on the same playing field. They don't have to continue to pick up their sword and fight and cut and slash to defend their property, defend their own ideas and opinions. Instead, when you use these phrases like, "I agree this is worth talking about," or, "That's helpful for me to know," or, "I've learned that this is important to you," those are all going to quickly put out a lot of fires for you.

What if you're with somebody who— I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper. They pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive-aggressive in the way they say things, and you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples. There's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive-aggressive with one another in the way they communicate. And I, I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a, or a strategy for that?

Let's separate into two different categories. So one, let's say, is kind of this more just passive-aggressive bucket. The other is Let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful or rude. So in this first bucket, this passive-aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life, and they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that you know there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that, or is there more to that? Or I— and this goes for Chris Voss, a dear friend, and I love his, his question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I, I also love sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask sounds like there's more to that, or ask them should I read into that, that tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody's saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? When you say, did you mean, it is twofold. One, it's giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean. And it's gonna allow them to fix it. Like, uh, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah. Yeah. The question— ask the question, did you mean for that to sound short? Instantly, almost every time. But my, you know, it, it is like the, oh no, no, no, no, sorry, I'm picking up the kids. Or, I, you know, I, I was checking out the grocery store or getting gas. You know, you, you get that, that K or okay, and you're like, oh, okay, I guess, I guess they hate me right now. All right, like, I guess they're in a mood. And then you naturally get in the mood, and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced, you've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this, um, this feedback loop that's kind of helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean, it's a great way to set somebody to, one, give them that grace of fixing it, but two, It's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? It is, or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a very quick way to address it out in the open and if they're gonna double down on it or not.

Will you do that in reverse? By the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're— I do this better in business than I do personal life, to be honest with you. In personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid. When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this. With friends and family, I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But so let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive-aggressive or demeaning or rude?

Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, "That's not what you said. You said this," and they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives an intonation in it, and you're like, "I didn't even say it like that." And all of a sudden now you're going, "That's not what I said. I didn't say it like that." You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And 9 times out of 10, it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said, um, you are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard, because that's what matters. Anytime you had that kind of confrontation, or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, no, that's not what, that's not what I said. And kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective. By the way, it's very hard to judge. It's like making your own movie, but not having an audience and going, no, no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it. That's when you can say, that was not my intent, or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with, I can see. Like, I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that came up. You know, whenever you say, um, you know, I, I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why, uh, that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turned to look the same way that you're looking, and I can confirm Yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes, boo. It naturally takes down the aggression. This, I have to win. You have to see it what I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view, perspective, see, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. And by that, they're going to be more receptive to the progress. If you want to change your life for the better, well, this is one of the best ways to do it. On today's episode, we're talking how to respond with confidence. If you want to sound more confident, do this. Number 1, eliminate the fluff. Eliminate the fluff. You know what I'm talking about? Fluff is that kind of— well, I mean, you know, it's, it's just this, it's just this. I mean, you know, it's, it's fluff, fluff that absolutely kills the confidence in your responses. Number 2, we're going to work on uptalk. That is where you begin to increase in the tone of your voice, almost like you're asking a question. Instead of saying something like this, it sounds kind of like this. At the end of your sentences, they uptalk, and that's not good because it makes it sound like everything you're saying is a question, like you're uncertain. About it. And number 3, we're going to work on word choice. That means we're going to eliminate ending your sentences with, you know what I mean? We're going to eliminate using the word just all the time, and we're going to minimize your reliance on adverbs. Those are words that end in -ly, literally. Now, I want to be clear. There is a difference between talking to friends and talking in a professional setting, period. When you're talking to people that are close to you, Who cares about fluff words? If you are fumbling over your words and you're saying, "Um," and, "You know," and, "I mean," "Well, maybe," "You know," anytime you're saying that to a friend, no problem. It's casual. It's comfortable. It's part of the conversation. But if you're talking in a professional setting, maybe at work, maybe in front of an important group, do you hear I just said that? In an important group, then it's not that not great for you because it makes it sound as if you are uncertain, like you're hesitant, like you're not sure what you're wanting to say. But in regular conversation, it's part of the game. Now, about fluff. Fluff comes in all shapes and sizes, and I want you to think about it as if it is static. It's a filler. They call them filler words. I like to say fluff. They also are ways of thinking about it of too much ice in your drink because they dilute your message. If you want to sound confident, you got to serve your words straight. So when you begin a sentence in front of a group, they ask you a question and it's— you're on the spot to respond. And the first thing out of your mouth is, "Um." That's very common. They ask you a question and the first thing you want to say is, "Um." Well, automatically that confidence in how you sound just tanks because you're not communicating. You're just wanting to make sound out. That's really what it is. We feel comfortable when we have this constant sound wave. Whenever there's the constant just noise, whether it's actual words being articulated or not, we just like hearing that sound. So that's why it comes out that way. If somebody asks me a question and I go, you know, well, I mean, it depends, you know, you see how vague that is versus you ask me a question and the first thing that I say is, I haven't run across that before. I think it depends on a number of factors. And I begin to speak. Very different. Same goal. I'm telling them I've never run across that before. Very different sound. So you want to find ways to eliminate that fluff and how you do it is very simple. It's very simple. Okay, enough. It's so simple you're going to be like, Jefferson, I knew this. But are you doing it? The question here is, do you know how to eliminate that fluff? And you do it by saying nothing. Wherever the fluff would be, just get used to silence. It's that easy. Get comfortable with silence. That's it. You just get comfortable with silence. So wherever That filler word would be, say nothing. The way I teach, and I know I've said this on my podcast before, let your breath be the first word that you say. So when somebody asks you a question that you don't know, the worst thing you can do is go, "Um," and look up as if you're searching for the words. Instead, take a breath, let that silence be there, and then you get to respond. You don't have to have just noise for the sake of noise. Give it a pause and fill that space with absolute nothing. Allow your breath to catch the attention for them to hang on to your next words for you to say, I haven't run across that before, but what I am confident about is we can look at X, Y, and Z. That's how you handle fluff. Now, uptalk is a little bit different, and I find that it is very dependent on gender most of the time. Or men don't really have this issue, but women do. It's an uptalk just because of the way you can tweak the end and sound of your voice. But it certainly happens to the guys too. I don't want to say it's just a female thing or a male thing at all. It's not. But it sounds like this. And when you have that, people who are in the office and they're talking to you and they go, yeah, I think I can do that. I mean, yeah, we can probably get it to you by Friday. Like as if you're hanging on to it, as if they're asking for permission in some way. When you say that and you sound like that, it cuts down on your confidence because it sounds like you're not sure. It sounds like you're unclear and you're asking for permission in some way. Think of it this way. This is how I want you to say your words. Ask as if you're asking someone to pass the salt. All right, here over in America, in Texas, if I'm going to ask somebody to pass the salt, I'm going to say, Hey, so-and-so, can you pass the salt? Period. You see how my volume, excuse me, my tone there at the end went down? Can you pass the salt? So when you end on a lower note, it sounds more serious. You see that? And instead of saying it sounds more serious, it sounds more serious. When you uptalk, it sounds like you're asking a question. When you go down, it sounds like you're making a firm statement. So I wouldn't say, hey, can you pass the salt? As if I don't know what salt is or you don't know what salt is. Instead, I say, can you pass the salt? As if I'm assuming, yes, everybody knows what it is. I'm going to keep that cadence flat. And if I can drop the tone just a little bit at the bottom to make it sound a lot more firm and a lot more confident. All right. This one is— this one's going to step on some toes a little bit. This is word choice. Word choice. What are the words that you're saying to sound confident at any given time? One of the biggest culprits, in my view, is ending your sentence with something that doesn't feel firm. Does that make sense? There it is right there. This element of, does that make sense? Every time you ask that question, you're doing something that is double-sided. Let me explain. If I'm going to tell you something and I make a statement, I say, "Does that make sense?" I'm doing two things. The reason I'm saying that, reason you may be saying that, is because it's this internal fear or insecurity of maybe the words that I'm saying aren't actually making sense to someone. They're not clear. I'm not communicating well. On the other side, I'm assuming that what I am saying may or may not be making sense to them. So the other person, it could also be offensive in some way to them, especially if you make it after a statement that is very common. Like, I mean, the sky is blue today. Does that make sense? The other person's like, oh yeah, of course, of course it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. You just, it was a plain sentence. It's nothing complicated about that. So in some ways, you may be insulting their intelligence by saying, does that make sense? You poor pitiful mind, you. Does that— do I need to go a little bit slower for you? So I'm not saying it's all the time, but it definitely runs that risk. I've certainly had it where somebody asks, does that make sense? After a statement where I only say, yes, yes, that makes sense. How else could I have taken that sentence? But I know where it's coming from is this insecurity feeling of, am I saying it right? Am I doing okay? It's best that you eliminate that. All right. Instead of saying, does that make sense? You can replace that with, what are your thoughts? That's it. What are your thoughts? Do you have any questions? Do you have any feedback? My favorite is, what are your thoughts? Instead of, does that make sense? I'm saying, what are your thoughts? I'm inviting communication. I'm inviting continuing the conversation instead of Do we need to stop and set a new paragraph for you to feel comfortable with this? I'm inviting them. What are your thoughts? What do you think? That's it. They might say, I'm good. I don't have any thoughts. That sounds great. Awesome. But at least I'm not assuming that they didn't understand what I said. If I said, does that make sense? So I would get rid of that. Just replace it with, what are your thoughts? Another way to tweak some of your communication to sound more confident is eliminate the word just. I love the word just in my regular day conversation. It's very common. But if I'm going to communicate in front of a group, try to eliminate it. Or if you're going to email somebody, try to eliminate it. Hear the difference. If I text you or email, or I say to you, hey, I just wanted to check in. I just want to touch base. That sounds almost hesitant, doesn't it? Hey, just want to check in. That sounds almost hesitant versus, hey, I wanted to check in on you. I wanted to touch base. That sounds like I'm leaning into it. I'm not shying away. I'm stepping into it. I wanted to do this versus, hey, I just wanted to, as if I'm just a little bit, don't, I'm not trying to get in your space. Very different. Eliminate that word just because it makes you sound more hesitant in your communication. And that's not the way you want to sound. Another is the way you use adverbs. I'm going to step on a little bit of toes here with this. And that is often when you overuse adverbs, it makes it more fluffy to where you're really not saying anything. We all have these little ticks that we like to say. Maybe we got them from family. Maybe we got them from friends or wherever you're working. But they cut down on the confidence and assertiveness of your sentences. So here's some words like that: essentially, big culprit, literally, those two alone, basically, anything that ends with -ly. Here is a very common response when somebody is responding to something or answering a question that you're asking. They're going to say, so essentially, I mean, what we have is that means nothing. That means nothing. It's just, it's just fluff. Those are comfort words. Those are security blankets that you'd like to have. It's going to be best if you eliminate those. There's not some kind of cure. You just need to find ways to get rid of them. If you ever see an email that says essentially or basically or literally or any other type of words, understand you can just eliminate them and they're going to be a whole lot better. Remember, if you want to have strong sentences, you need to just serve your words straight every time. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.