How to Use Your Anxiety to Lead the Conversation A New Approach | Jefferson Fisher

It is normal. In fact, it is natural to be nervous before a conversation. But how do you handle that? What do you do to be less nervous? Or what do you do to make the conversation go more smoothly? Well, I have some ideas and we're going to talk about that. It's totally part of our fight or flight, or fight or flight of what do you do when you're nervous? And here's what I want you to remember. This is what I want to go through in today's episode. Tell them, tell them whatever feeling you're feeling, get it out. So let's break it down into a traditional 1, 2, 3, right? We like those. I like those. Number 1, whatever you are feeling, whether it's nervousness, whether it is anxiety or frustration, tell them. Listen to me. Tell them that. What happens when we try to keep our emotions in, whether it's defensiveness, frustration, anger, resentment, nervousness, when you try to keep all your cards close, like you don't want to show them what they are, what you might have heard the term keeping your cards close to the vest or to the chest. It is, it's a term of I'm wanting to hide something and not give them to you. I want you to download this into your brain right now. The more often you keep your cards close and you do not show them, the more frustrated you're going to be and the more contempt you're going to have for other people and the more of a victim mindset you're going to have of that they should understand me. They should already know. I shouldn't have to show them my cards. That is a recipe for poor communication. That is a recipe for a poor relationship. Get in the habit of telling people how you're feeling in the moment. When you can say, okay, this is how I'm feeling, here's this card, here's this card, here's this card, the other people, the person you're talking to will also naturally say, well, this is what I'm feeling. And this is what I'm feeling. And this is what I'm feeling. And they start to lay their cards. I'm not saying you need to divulge your secrets. No, I'm not saying you need to just be a complete waterfall of information. No. In fact, if you know that you follow my content, that I suggest don't be a waterfall of information. You be a well, something to where of how you're feeling, you share it at one at a time, one at a time. So what does that sound like, me making sure that I'm sharing my cards? I teach that if you claim it out loud, you control it. And I say that because it's true. We talked about this in the membership, and I love talking about it now. And I'm gonna have a story for you in a second. This is what it sounds like when you say, I can tell. I can tell. That means when you go into this nervous conversation, I want you to think in your mind— this will be helpful— think in your mind right now. Maybe you're walking on a treadmill, you're driving, wherever you are, think in your mind of a time you've been nervous before a conversation. Heck, I'm guessing maybe, just maybe, you're listening to this because you're feeling nervous about a conversation coming up right now. And if that's true, this is what I want you to do. As soon as you sit down for this conversation, or maybe it's on a phone call, or maybe it's a text— I prefer it not be— but if it's a phone call or a meeting someone, begin with this phrase. I want you to say, I can tell blank. I can tell I'm feeling blank. It's what it sounds like even more. I can tell I'm nervous talking about this. I can tell I'm feeling upset. I can tell I'm feeling anxious. I can tell I'm feeling unsteady. I can tell I'm feeling distant. You see how you're saying what you're feeling rather than acting upon what you're feeling. And that gives you the power to control it. It does two things. One, it gives you the power to control it, meaning you get it out and the other person knows about it. You're showing that card, they're going to show their card, and you feel like you have a little bit more control over the conversation because you've said it. There's a difference between me saying— let's say I'm feeling defensive about a situation and all of a sudden I just go, that's not true, that's not what I mean. Well, wait, you think that and I start getting defensive, that's me acting on it. True power says, I can tell I'm getting defensive, as if I'm taking that emotion, that card, and I'm putting it on the table. And I'm pointing the person to that card on the table and say, that right there, that's what I'm feeling. It's not what I am. I'm not acting out loud. I'm not raising my voice. I'm not drawing out the spikes. I am, with emotional intelligence, pulling that card out, putting on the table and saying, that's the card that I have right there. What's your card? And that's it. That's what people do. They naturally want to reciprocate that every time. This is what I mean by reciprocate. Have you ever— for anybody who's a parent, in any situation you've talked with a child, a child comes to you and they're running and they're upset. You can tell they're upset about something. Do you as a parent go, What's, what's wrong with you? Stop that. Stop that right now. What are you, what are you doing? Like, you don't even know the situation yet. You're just going, what are you doing? Get out of here. Go. I don't want to see this. No. I, I hope you're not that way. I hope nobody's been with you that way. Most of the time what happens is you lower your guard and you go, what is it, baby? What? But wait, what is it? What's going on? What is telling you upset? Tell me. Like, you naturally all of a sudden want to regulate your system to match theirs. That's what happens in everyday conversation. When you can tell them the, I can tell I'm feeling nervous. Does the other person go, good, I hope you are nervous? Yeah. No, they don't. The natural reaction is, no, it's okay to be nervous. What's going on? What happens? What do you have? It's okay. See, they naturally regulate their system. They will mirror how you're feeling. There is an attorney that I know, and I know it's not a strategy, but it's brilliant and it works and I've seen it, is he is not an attorney of— he's not very tall. He's a smaller guy. And when he gets in front of people, he gets extremely nervous. Yet it makes him incredibly effective in the courtroom. When he goes in and you might have— I've seen it where somebody else he's against is big, grandiose, taking up lots of space. He takes up very small space. When he goes up for an opening argument, this is what he says first. He kind of almost shakes in his voice, which of course you know this happens to a lot of people, is he'll go, hey everybody, I just want to let you know, I get very shy and nervous in front of other people, but that's not going to stop me from representing my client. You hear how everybody in the room starts to root for that guy. Everybody in the room starts to root for that guy. We as humans love to root for the underdog, don't we? When you see somebody performing and you can tell that they're nervous, everybody in the whole crowd just kind of starts to cheer for this person and root them on. That's what happens in little bitty moments of conversation, is we want them to do well. It's okay, get it all out. Let's, let's talk about it. So when you can say I can tell I'm feeling nervous about this. 9 times out of 10, I'd say even more than that, the other person will regulate their system. And you'll have a much smoother conversation. And it's just more open. It's way more open when you can say, I can tell. I had a very good friend of mine, one of my closest friends, she had a call with a teacher for her son's school. And she used the exact same technique that I have talked to her about previously of I can tell I'm nervous about this. I can tell I'm nervous about this conversation. I'm uneasy about this conversation. And you know what the person on the other line said? They said, no, it's okay. No, no problem. Yeah, let's just talk it out. No problem. It's like everybody starts to roll up their sleeve and say, okay, hey, let's, let's just, let's just talk about this. And it pulls down their defensive. You see how that's way different than all of a sudden acting on that nervousness? Much more powerful. Number 2 that I really want to leave you with is this idea of when you try to use this phrase right here, when you say, um, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but whenever you say that, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but it is guaranteed they're going to take it the wrong way. It is guaranteed they're going to take it the wrong way. Hey, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I can promise you they are. I can promise you they are. What I want you to do is flip that to saying, you're probably going to take this the wrong way, and they won't. Here's the magic of that. When you try to come out of the gate with information that you're nervous about and you're afraid they're going to react strongly to, there's this feeling that we have to say, hey, I don't want you to be offended by this. I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but— you use that word 'but.' But just has a way of deleting everything you said before. Like, I love you, but I can't do this. Like, it just erases everything. Whenever you say, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but they will take it the wrong way, it's all they're doing is it's telling their system of you should take this the wrong way. But when you tell them this phrase, when you begin the sentence with, you're probably going to take this the wrong way, in their mind they go, no, I won't. Like, we are so wired in our brain to contradict what you're telling me. I will want to think the opposite. If somebody says this is going to be a really difficult problem or difficult conversation, we naturally go, no, it's not.

I'm gonna—

well, I'm gonna make sure you know that it's not. I'm going to want to disprove whatever you say. We love the contradictory. We love to correct people. We love to prove that they're wrong. We like to show them that it's differently. And whenever you say, you're probably gonna take this the wrong way, they naturally in their head think, no, I'm not. I'm not going to take it the wrong way because I'm going to prove you wrong that I'm not. I promise you it works. Because it takes advantage of that natural reaction that we have to want to correct people and want to prove them wrong. When somebody says, "You can't do that," what's the first thing you think of when somebody says, "You can't"? "Oh, yes, I can. Just wait. Just watch." You will change your whole life trajectory if somebody says you can't do something just to prove them wrong, prove to them that you can. And sometimes it's yourself. I did this to prove myself. That I can do this. It's funny how defiant we are. And when you can use what we have naturally to your advantage and leverage in the conversation, not in a bad way, but just knowing that's how a— that's how you can better set yourself up instead of this, hey, I don't want you to be offended by this. It's guaranteed they're going to be offended by this. But when you say, you're probably going to take this offensively, or I know this is going to offend you. They won't. They won't. They will find another way in their mind of going, no, this is— I'm going to disprove it to you and find that it's not. Cool. So that's another little technique that I really like. Number 3, what I want to have the takeaway for anytime you're having conversations where you're nervous, about them is because you are not breathing enough. I know I talk about breath and communication because it is part of communication. It is not separate from it. It is all expression and air that comes out of your lungs and out of your mouth. That is part of communication. Make no doubt about it. It is part of communication. Pauses, breath, it may be the absence of words.

It is not the absence of communication.

You know this. When somebody goes, makes just a big exasperated sigh, what does that cue into you? Exasperation, frustration. Somebody just lets out a breath, rolls their eyes. That is all part of communication. Whenever you're feeling nervous, that one, it's a good thing. Let me, I want to make sure I tell you this. Nervousness is a good thing.

Because it means that you care.

It means that you care. Often it's the feeling of, I want to make sure that they still like me. That means you're going to lead that conversation with, I'm, I'm nervous about telling you this. I'm afraid that you're not going to like me at the end of this conversation. You see how— I know it's vulnerable, but it is incredibly powerful because the person even makes sure that they say, no, no, no, no, we can, we can continue to talk this out. When you lower their defenses, they will regulate their system to match your frequency. Whenever you are forthcoming and honest about it, using your breath is a way to make sure that you take those feelings of nervousness and release those into your body. And remind yourself, I'm saying this kind of stuff because I care. That's why. And even when you lead with that, it is, it is as simple as that. I'm telling you this because I care. I'm telling you this because I want to have a good relationship with you. I am telling you this because— that's the phrase. I'm telling you this because— I'm telling you this because I love you. I'm telling you this because I'm a— I am your friend. I'm telling you this because I care about you. You see how that's so much more honest and more putting your cards on the table than this idea of, look, I, you know, I love you, but— oh, hey, look, I know, I think you and I are good, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Build them up in conversation to where they are on level footing to meet you eye to eye. And sometimes that means bringing them down. Nothing wrong with that. So next time you are in a conversation that you're feeling nervous about, I want you to understand it is totally natural and normal. All right, number 1, you're going to use the phrase, I can tell, I can tell I'm feeling nervous. That will naturally pull them down. 2, do not use phrases like, you may take this the wrong way, but, or don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean this as disrespect. I don't mean this as rude, but All you're doing is just making sure they are. Instead, label it as their own feeling, like their projection. You're probably going to take this the wrong way, or you probably think I'm being rude. That right there is going to make sure that they don't. And 3, use your breath. Use your breath and say, I'm telling you this because— I'm telling you this because I care. I'm telling you this because I care about this company. I care about your leadership. I care about this organization. I'm your friend. I love you. Whatever it is you're telling them, why is laying that card down on the table. And when you do that, more often than not, they're going to start laying down theirs and you have a better conversation. Cool.

All right.

Try that. And as always, you can follow me.

We all have moments where our emotions get the best of us, whether it's a hard conversation at work or a hard conversation at home. If you want to have more effective communication, you have to increase your emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence isn't just a buzzword. It is something that can transform the way you communicate, how you understand the other person, and more importantly, how you understand yourself. Emotional intelligence. I like to think of it as emotional fluency. In other words, I'm fluent in the language of my emotions. I can recognize my emotions. I can speak my emotions, and I can better identify those emotions in other people. And by increasing your emotional intelligence, you take more control over how you feel and how you can guide the interaction in the conversation. And I'm going to tell you how to do that in 3 easy steps. Number 1, use the phrase "I need." It's as simple as that. Begin your response with, "I need." It's a very entry-level way of being emotionally intelligent. Number 2, have something to learn, not something to prove. Too often we're fighting over who has the right answer rather than fighting to ask the right question. And number 3, what triggers you teaches you. So instead of focusing on what the other person is doing and why they're doing what they're doing, It's asking the reflective question of, "What is it about what they're doing that is making my emotions feel out of place?" Too often we think about our needs, our emotional needs in a given communication. We think about how we're feeling because we feel it bubbling to the top. I feel my emotions starting to rise up. I can tell I'm getting stressed out. Maybe my eyes are starting to water and things are starting to to rise and ignite within myself, and I don't know how to voice it. Instead, when you don't voice your needs and use the phrase "I need," like, "I need a moment," "I need to take a moment to digest what you just said," "I need to take a break," "I need to understand what you said," when you put out the words "I need," it makes it to where you are voicing your emotions out loud instead of you bottling them all up, which increases that ignition, increases that tension in your body, you are saying it out loud. Say, "I need to understand what you're saying because it's making me feel a certain way." By putting out your needs or saying, "I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm not feeling myself." Or as easy as saying, "I feel sad when you say that. I feel upset," or "I feel defensive when you make that kind of comment or when you talk about this topic." Whenever you put these kind of statements out there, it's becoming much more emotionally intelligent because you're recognizing what is happening within your body. You're not just keeping it all in. You are voicing it to where you're able to share exactly what you need. It's okay to assert your needs in a conversation. To always feel instead like you're having to be walked on, that you have to cater to everybody else and people-please? Absolutely not. You are somebody that can voice their needs at any time in the conversation. So I want you to feel confident and I want you to feel firm and to be able to say, I need you. I need this. I need to talk about this. When you say I need, it makes it much more reflective and you emotionally more intelligent about how you're feeling in that moment. I use the phrase I need a lot in my communication when I need to add time as a variable into the communication. Often People rush things. They rush conversations when I'm not ready, when you're not ready, or I can tell my— the way I'm feeling is starting to bubble up and my heart's starting to beat faster. Whenever I feel that happening, you can increase your emotional intelligence, your emotional fluency, by saying, I need a moment. That's probably my most often. I need some time to think on this, to chew on this. I just need a pause for me to add some distance to help my, my body regulate and make sure my analytical is not allowing my emotional to take over. And that leads really to the, the second part, is having something to learn, not something to prove. This is— let me tell you why that's important. When you are focused solely on proving something to somebody, that means you, uh, you see this all the time, people feel like they have to, or you have to, change their mind. That's trying to prove something. I'm trying to win against you. I need you to see things exactly the way I see them. I need you to agree with the exact type of way that my mind is thinking in this moment. When you're trying to prove a certain position against them, they often will tighten up and believe something even more. They become even more convinced that they're right the more you push to try and prove that they're wrong. So instead, you become much more emotionally intelligent when you realize that's happening within you, and you kind of become, you know, water off a duck's back is what the phrase I grew up saying is. Water off a duck's back. In other words, you just let those kind of problems and emotions bead off of you to understand that you are much more concerned about what to ask them, the question to ask. And that means you have something to Learn. When I can go into a conversation with somebody, especially when it's heated, and I can say to myself, am I trying to prove something or am I trying to learn something right now in this moment? And see how I can even tag that together? Hey, I need, I need to pause for a moment. Even 5 seconds, I can talk to myself and say, am I trying to prove something or am I trying to learn something right now? And too often it's me trying to prove something. And I can flip the whole dynamic of the conversation when I focus on what's something that I can learn about them, something small, rather than me trying to force-feed them my opinion and then getting upset that they don't take it hook, line, and sinker. Instead, you have something to learn, not something to prove. And number 3, lastly, what triggers you teaches you. Now, this is one of my favorite phrases to talk about because it is so true, as much as I sometimes wish that it wasn't. And that is, when somebody has triggered you, in other words, they've done something that is raising, bringing up this negative adverse reaction to you, and you feel triggered by what they've done, often the first place we point the finger is at them. They say, "I can't believe you did that. How do you dare do that? Why would you do that? You should know that what you did is going to affect me." that way. Emotionally intelligent people point the finger at themselves first, having something to learn, not something to prove. And they ask the question, they get curious and say, what is it about what they did that is causing this reaction within me? So we all have triggers. In other words, we all have a button that somebody can press. And the people that are closest with us, they're the ones that know these triggers the best. But too often we don't ask the question ourselves. Now, yes, there's a trigger, and yes, there's a button, but why is there a button there in the first place? So why, why is there a button? What is it about this behavior that triggers me? What is it about what they said that is causing me to feel so out of place with my emotions? And we just don't ask that question. If you want to be much more emotionally intelligent, you have to know your triggers. In other words, you have to know your buttons. The reason why that's important is because you don't put yourself in positions for somebody else to press that button. You don't talk about things where you invite people to press that button. That's the hard part, is that you don't put yourself in a position to where you aren't going to be emotionally intelligent. Emotionally intelligent people prevent themselves from being in situations where you're going to be triggered. That's, that's the hard part of it. Once you know your triggers, you know the areas to avoid, and in a circular fashion, it makes you much more emotionally intelligent. If there's one thing that I personally struggle with, it's feeling defensive. It's natural, but it's also the number one killer of conversation. If you feel defensive, you shut everybody off, and if they feel defensive, they're not going to listen to anything else you have to say. On today's episode, it's all about how do you handle defensiveness? If there's one thing about defensiveness, it's that it's so easy to do. It's just biological. It's natural because anything that you perceive as a threat or a challenge, you fight against. It is natural as part of your fight or flight. On any argument that you're going to have, there are two sides. There is an ignition. A cooling side of it, and that ignition is triggered by things that trigger you. So anytime somebody challenges your opinion or disagrees with you, your body perceives that as a threat that says, "I don't like that." Somebody gives you an opinion and you disagree, your body says, "I don't like that." Somebody's telling you what to do, your body goes, "I don't really like that." So every time that happens, there is a desire to push back against it. If somebody's telling you, "You need to go do this," you automatically want to go, "No, I don't." If somebody says, "Oh, you were behaving this way last night. You were in a bad mood last night," you automatically want to go, "No, I wasn't. Who are you to tell me how I was or how I'm feeling or what to do?" We preserve that element of autonomy within ourselves. And so anytime You feel defensiveness. It is just so reactionary, and it's nearly impossible to stop from the get-go. But there are some tips and techniques that I'm going to give you to make sure that you know how to handle it in the moment. Number 1, to keep yourself from getting defensive, let their words fall to the ground. This is what I mean. In case you forgot, other people's words are not your responsibility to carry. It's not tennis or volleyball. You don't have to throw anything back. So instead, You're just going to take a breath, imagine that their words fall to the ground, and you get to decide whether to pick them up or just leave them there. And you're going to find more often than not, you just want to leave them there. Number 2, get rid of beginning your sentence with "you." When it comes to responding in an argument, the word "you" is very triggering because it's you telling them what to do, how they should behave, what they need to say, what they need to do, and they're going to get defensive. So instead of "you," We're going to tweak that to start with "I." When you start with "I," it's not nearly as triggering. Number 3, you're going to use phrases that help dampen defensive responses. Responses like, "I agree, that's something that we should consider," or, "That's helpful for me to know. Thank you." When you use those phrases, it's telling them that they're getting acknowledged and they're not going to get defensive. What I try to do when somebody tells me something and I can tell that I'm getting defensive, I try and imagine like what they just told me was a piano note. All right, you ever heard somebody just hit one key on the piano and they just leave their finger there and you just let that note sustain, is what they call it. You let that note just end by itself to where it eventually just falls and drops. The note is no longer heard. It— that's how I imagine it. So when somebody says something that I don't like. Instead of having this very reactionary response, this very defensive response that I know is not worth my energy and time, I picture in my mind that it has fallen, the words just fell out of their mouth and they're on the ground, and I get to look at them and go, is this worth my time? Is this worth my energy? Often when I start to get involved in it and I start to pick it up, I tell myself this phrase that I use, small talks, and that is I tell myself, put it down, Jefferson. Put it down, Jefferson. It's not worth your time. What are you doing? Put it down. I say those things to myself and it helps me. It controls my emotions when I can inject my breath, let my breath be the first thing that I say and have that slow reaction and go, you know what? No, I don't have to send that back. I don't have to hit that back over the net. I don't have to take a swing at this. Just let it go by. There's, there's not an umpire. Just let them have a bad pitch. They threw a ball, so what? You don't swing at them. You don't swing at those. So when I have that kind of mentality, it, it helps me in a very specific way because defensive behavior is just biological. It is innate within every one of us that we naturally want to defend things. We want to defend our intelligence. We want to defend our credibility. We want to defend our own ideas and opinions. And when somebody is conflicting with those, we want to put our wall up, to put our shield up, to protect that. That's why so often when you start to say things and you can tell somebody's fighting and fighting and fighting, they are defending against their own ideas. They are protecting their house, so to speak. That's why that whole idea of having something to learn instead of something to prove, having something that's open rather than something that's pointing at them, is going to open up the dialogue so much better and not going to have these defensive reactions. So anytime that somebody tells you something and you start to feel that tension in your body that's preparing you for that fight or flight, just imagine that their words are falling to the ground. You're going to take a few seconds and decide for yourself Is this something I need to respond to? And in truth, it's a cycle, what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I say something and they get defensive, well, more often than not, they're going to say something back, and then I'm going to get defensive. And all of a sudden, we're just saying things that are hurting each other, or we both have our walls up. When it comes to defensive behavior, one of the worst things you can do is begin your sentence with you. If I were to tell you right now, you seem like you're in a bad mood, or if I were just to be very blunt, you're in a bad mood, most likely you're going to disagree with me, or you're going to correct me, or you're going to adjust what I just told you. You're going to say, no, no, I'm not, or, well, I know, I'm just, I'm irritated right now. You're not going to accept that I said you're in a bad mood because you is a some assumption-based.

It is trying to tell somebody what they're doing, what they need to be doing.

You're not listening to me. It gets people defensive because what they want to say is, yes, I am, I am listening to you, versus me saying, I feel like you're not listening to me. I feel like I'm not being heard. When you change you to I, it's not nearly as defensive because I'm not assuming that you're doing anything. If I were to say, "You don't even care. You don't care." Automatically, you're gonna— what you're thinking inside is, "Yes, I am. I do care." People don't like to be told that they are something or they feel a certain way or they're doing something. We don't like that. So, when you just easily turn it from— instead of beginning your sentence with "you," change it to "I." Change it to "I." It's just— it's that easy. I can't make it any more simple.

Than that.

When somebody's getting defensive, the most likely culprit is because you started a sentence with "you." I'm also guilty of that. All right, anytime that somebody's getting defensive in an argument with me or a conversation, I can go back in my mind and go, "I started that sentence with 'you.' I shouldn't have done that." When I rephrase it with an "I" and say, "Hey, can I start over?" I feel like I wasn't heard. I'm beginning with I, and it's going to smooth it out a whole lot better. So easiest transition here is anytime you say something to keep somebody from getting defensive, instead of you, just replace it with I. Instead of, you can't talk to me like that, it's, I don't respond to that volume. I don't respond to that tone. You make it about you yourself as a saying, I, I feel this way, and take it away from that other person, and they're not going to get defensive. Now, I also want to make sure that I equip you with some phrases that are going to help dampen defensive behavior. If you're already in that argument and things are already going and you go, "Oh man, I really need to just calm things down for a second," here's some phrases that I want you to use real quick. One of my favorites is beginning your sentence with "I agree." Now listen to me, I'm not saying that you're agreeing with what they said, all right? Instead, you're just agreeing that the discussion needs to be had. Instead of thinking micro, go macro. So if somebody's communicating, instead of saying— getting all defensive and arguing with them, I can just say, "I agree that this is worth discussing." You feel automatically that's just going to settle the conversation. It's going to smooth it out. They're going to lower their voice, lower their tone. The spikes are going to be as pointy. You say, "Hey, I I agree we need to talk about this. Simple as that. Begin your sentence with, I agree. I agree that this subject is worth discussing. You hear how different that is? They're gonna feel acknowledged, like, okay, this is— I'm not having to fight. I don't have to fight and put up all the spikes all the time. Another that I like to use is, that's helpful to know. Tell them that they've been helpful. And when somebody feels like they've been helpful, it feels like they're involved in their own mutual understanding, that they have helped teach you things. That's why I also like using the phrase "what I've learned." "By listening to you right now, I've learned I have some work to do," or "I've learned that this topic is really important to you." That's one I've used often. "I've learned that this topic is important to you." Just by them hearing "I've learned," they feel like they've taught something, and it's going to lower is going to lower all the walls because now they feel like they're on the same playing field. They don't have to continue to pick up their sword and fight and cut and slash to defend their property, defend their own ideas and opinions. Instead, when you use these phrases like, "I agree this is worth talking about," or, "That's helpful for me to know," or, "I've learned that this is important to you," those are all going to quickly put out a lot of fires for you.

You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not somebody's outlet for all of their frustration and their anger and their insecurities that have been built up all their life. This episode is a little bit different for the podcast. One, it's very early on a Saturday morning, and I wanted to record this so that I had the full day with the kids. So if it looks like my face hasn't woken up yet, it's because it hasn't.

It's—

we're in the middle of the book tour, which is going fantastic, but I wanted to make time to tell you what is on my heart. You ready? So my book has been out for a little over a week now, and it's been fantastic, amazing. The book tour is going wonderful. And as any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online because you want to know, are people going to like the book? That's the whole You get very nervous. Are you going to deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen, you are not a target. I was once told by my husband, you are an easy target and everyone knows it. Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips. That's what I thought it would be. No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people. I was just taken aback. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says verified purchaser. This is my point with this is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, This is where it stops. Rule number 1 in my book, there are 3 rules. It's rule number 1, say it with control. Number 2, say it with confidence. Number 3, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number 1 is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I can give you, none of it matters if you do not say it with control. If you do not first regulate yourself. So we're going to talk about in this episode, what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Anytime that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally through its biology reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro-moments. Even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you, when somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, hey brain, I didn't like that. And the brain goes, give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that. And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You want to say something back. You get heated. Your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number 1 in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds a distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you. And it also— the other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, I am threatened. Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic, somebody merges, somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, I am threatened. That's where road rage comes from. I feel threatened in this environment. When you're talking with your kids, when somebody says something to you that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea, You don't like that. Your body's saying, hey, that feels threatening to me. I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later. Do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you. And we're going to put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect. Dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just, just feels like it sets you off? That just, you just explode when somebody does this to you. You got it? You find that word. Now write it down. And right next to it, I want you to write, does not threaten me. Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, hey, this does not threaten me. That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body what is happening in front of me is not a threat, right? It's this idea that, um, you have— you've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have like some— maybe a little dog or something. They just go, what is this? It's like a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, hey, what you're doing is— this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it. Cool. I'm going to tell you a quick story right now that I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared. This was, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks ago or so. And where was I? I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early. Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate. Looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs. And then all of a sudden, I was outside of it, outside of the security, the gate, the terminal. It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal, and I just walked myself all the way through. I'd already gone through security. I'd already gone through all the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I started walking out, and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, or has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it, and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look and I go— I say this out loud— I go, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again. Because I have to know I'm going further down where separate terminal is. And I say, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again. And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from. Female voice goes, that's why you should read the signs, sir. And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, you have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs. I don't know if you're feeling this, just hearing it to me, just the way The tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I remember being just taken aback.

Who are you?

And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible. And I, hey, I'm an attorney for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There's some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was a middle-aged lady, uh, just looked so smug when soon as she said that. And this is what my, my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was kind of— it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it— I looked at her for like 5 seconds trying to figure out, is this— did she say that? And I just give it time. And now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, how do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Does it give you joy? That's what I said, verbatim. And immediately, She got red, like, um, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I don't have to prompt anything. She goes, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sir, you're right, that wasn't kind, you're right, sir, I'm sorry. Yes, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down. And now she was in helping mode. Now she's in helping mode. You can go right here and this is where it's going to be. I would say, oh, well, thank you very much, I appreciate that. All right, you have a wonderful day. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life, how are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me, is that what— excuse me, are you talking to me? You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath? When you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you. It's not going to work. It ain't going to work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know, and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response, it's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, let me— you, you spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours. No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character. And 9 times out of 10, the other person sees that because they— because you're giving them time to— are seeing. It's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red— it's not blood the red comes out of their system, you know, or somebody's seeing red, you have to give them time for that to go away, come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not— people are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that. Cool.

All right.

You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day.

Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like when you are feeling threatened, Maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation. And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath.

Why?

Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, well, I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just— you lose your credibility. You've lost that connection.

I mean, what have you got now?

Now it's just— you want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person. Live with this person, you've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kind of control your breath and your shoulders.

And shoulders, like pull them back?

No, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's tension, makes you cranky.

Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less. And understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table. And using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with.

Yeah.

Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And when you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, I can RSVP no, I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um, you've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

Me. It's what I'm realizing.

It's the person who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that company, versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident. Because confidence is very quiet, insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. I see things differently, or I remember things differently, period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and trying to challenge your truth. I remember things differently, period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them. I remember things differently. In my world, people who are trying to gaslight, are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. I remember things differently, period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let it, let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often you have this, uh, you ever been in those arguments where the person goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, and they have to go the whole timeline of everything? No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so-and-so came in and remember the water that came and they spilled that, and they want to go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them. Expecting you to say, yes, that's exactly what happened. I remember things differently. You don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not going to ask you for it because you're just not going with them.

When somebody says, well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Yeah. Which always sounds a little passive. Is there a response to that or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

I don't like it when somebody says, well, we can agree to disagree.

I open it up, say it's okay to disagree with me.

You can disagree. It's like you have to give permission.

Sometimes people feel like they don't.

They can't disagree with you. So open it up to give that permission. If you disagree with me, I want to know. I want to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often you can talk different ways of how you're going to disagree with somebody. I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently. Something that just says, yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach. I tend to have another approach. And so it's a matter of I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there. As long as you're not talking about the other person of you are X, you're so X. It's that whole separating the person from the problem.

I love this because there's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke. Yeah. They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of an opinion out there. And it's so offensive or like, eh, that you kind of stop and think, you don't even believe that, right? Like you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody. Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently?

It's certainly one you could easily say. I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that. It's okay to say, I don't have an opinion, or if I had an opinion, I'd give it. That's pretty easy of, I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure. Finding ways of just being what I like to call the wet blanket.

The wet blanket.

The wet blanket.

Just like on a fire.

Exactly.

Just throw a wet blanket on the fire. 'Cause there are times where I literally just wanna be like, you're a complete idiot.

Right, right, right.

And then I think, why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, then you grab it and you're—

Exactly.

And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

Well, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you're such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very— just—

I've had that comment.

You have? Yeah, that they didn't—

they— I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy. So I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury.

If—

as long as the jury likes you, they— yeah, you, you're 90% there.

Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

Yeah.

No, seriously, don't give someone else an enemy.

Yeah.

Like, if you go— and this isn't about, like, being somebody who is soft.

Yeah.

And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy and who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.

I like to call it being in the pocket.

What does that mean?

Well, and, um, I'm a musician.

And I'm— oh, really?

Yeah, I play drums.

And for real, I play several instruments.

But yeah, I can't imagine you behind a drum set.

You should have seen me.

Absolutely.

And did you ever have long hair?

I did, yeah. I had the whole, like— yeah, I've been in multiple bands.

There's a whole thing.

Um, and— oh, wow.

Okay, now the funny thing—

this is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person that they are.

Okay, exactly.

Yeah.

Um, and it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not lagging, you're not loud and forceful, you're not calling attention to yourself, you're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy, I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the, the peacekeeper, there is a strength to being the calm mind.

That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun.

It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation. But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, this is a difficult person, it's just a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you, instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're going to come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation.

And that's a really empowering thought.

There's something I've learned over the years about, and I'm curious how you approach this, and I don't always get it right and I don't always It doesn't always work for me, but a psychological strategy when someone is quote unquote attacking me or saying nasty things about me that I don't believe are true, or maybe it's just I don't like the way they're saying it and I don't want it to penetrate my heart and my soul and be reactive and defensive and rigid and frustrated and all these things.

When the brow goes like this.

Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off the words, the intention, the energy. It comes and then boink, it just goes around me and like water off a duck.

I feel like there's a Star Wars reference, but yes, exactly right.

Yeah. Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically and an image of it, the ego of me here. I'll just say, "Oh, they're just speaking to the ego." Yeah.

No detachment.

They're just speaking over here. They're not actually speaking to me. They might be looking at me, but it's just redirecting right here. And, "Oh, this doesn't affect me." Yeah.

They're talking about that guy.

And I saw, I think I saw, I think it was Salma Hayek one time talk about this. She was giving examples somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not going to get defensive. You're just going to be like, okay, I have no clue what this crazy person is saying to me. Okay, so just act like it's a different language.

Right.

At least it's different ways of like separating yourself from that.

Yeah, I like that too.

Or the potential pain.

Yes.

What have you learned to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually?

Yeah.

When this feeling of panic or stress comes your way or when potential attacks come your way emotionally?

So very similar to yours. In my mind, I visually have a trash can.

Oh, okay.

All right. And I can see it. It's one of those big, huge gallon ones. Yeah, it's the black.

Sure.

Shiny. It's—

you got it.

Yeah.

And I see what they're saying is just a chute. So I can see the words coming and I'm sifting because the issue they're telling me is not the real issue. And so if I hear something that's offensive, that's not nice, I just, okay, that's trash. Let me just, I'm just, in my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up and throw it. Like that's what I'll do with my thoughts. And I'm sifting to where if they might have led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that and send it back to them. Yeah, send it back and, oh, I just, I got a good one coming. Instead, yeah, you got it. Instead, if I throw that one away, if I just trash it, and then I found the one word that they said at the very end, towards the end, that was, that was the one word, and then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kind of crumble.

It's interesting to me, actually fascinating, that you started with control and you really dive into nervous system regulation and explaining that. And it's something, frankly, we've had guests on to talk about that. We've done a fair amount of study ourselves on that, but I never considered it in the context of communication, which is kind of odd because it's like probably the most important thing, which I guess that's why you started with it first. But can you unravel that?

The whole point of why rule number 1 in the book is say it with control is because if you do not have control, well, then none of the rest matters. It doesn't matter how quick of a statement I could give you, a twist of the word, a way to reframe. It doesn't matter a lick if you do not have control. And what people are so quick to forget is that you are in complete control of the pace of the conversation. And I say that because I train I prepare hundreds of clients for their deposition. And they get into this mentality of, well, if this person's asking me a question, this attorney's asking me a question, I need to have a rapid-fire response, or I need to be on the ready, or anything. And I have to continually remind them and say, no, no, no, no, listen, you are in control of the conversation. They can't ask a question faster than you can respond to it. There is nothing that they can do, nothing they can do to make you respond faster. Do you understand that? There's nothing anybody can do to force you to say something, force you to speak. It is all within your time frame and timetable. And the sooner that people understand that, almost innately, the more in control they feel of themselves. You can ask me a question. And I can choose to not answer it at all. I can choose to answer it in 5 seconds. I can choose anything that I want. But it's that pause that you can throw in there that truly is a game changer in all of your communication. But you have to say it with control.

What is the value of that? If you go at the other person's pace and sort of the natural trajectory of an argument, What's at stake there versus doing it the way you're talking about putting a pause in?

When you don't put in a pause and you don't add your breath, when you don't say it with control, you end up reacting rather than responding. It's just your, your natural fight or flight will take over and you're going to start responding more emotionally. So attorneys will do this thing where we will start to ask questions faster and you'll start to respond faster. That means you're thinking about your you answer less, which means I'm probably getting the answer I want. And so whenever I can get you in this rhythm, the yes, no, okay, I don't know, like, it's faster I can get you in that rhythm, the more I got you, the more I know I can lead you where I want to lead you. The witness I need to cross-examine, if I ask them a question and they immediately go yes, Yeah, no, that's— yeah, I think that's true. Yes, that quickness, like, okay, they're not listening. But the witness who goes, yeah, I think so, I think so, that right there, I'm like, oh dang, okay, this is somebody who I can't do anything with. It doesn't matter what I say, they're going to actually listen to what I'm asking them. And it's a much different— it's the same thing when I'm the one questioning the other attorney, or, uh, I'm seeing another attorney. If there's another attorney who's asking questions and he's rapid-fire, sometimes he's not really thinking of what— hearing what the witness is saying because he's looking down at his next question, right? Same thing with like people who interview, they're not really listening to the person. They're looking at— they're worried like, what's going to be my next question? Yep. Attorneys do that too. And I know it's a good attorney if they have their notes and they just push them off to the side and they're just looking at my witness and, you know, they're taking their time before a question. Like, dang, okay, they're really— they're locked in. Yeah, there's somebody that you already know, okay, you, you, uh, you better be on your game.

Well, it seems like in a personal relationship too, it just really keeps it from escalating because once you get into that fight or flight thing, it spirals out of control.

I had this actually happen Recently, I was in a conversation, in a professional conversation, and it started to escalate. And it was kind of one of those things where it's like you're, you're sort of having an out-of-body experience in your head. Like, what's happening right now? Like what? I said this, but why is the other person responding like that? And I was on the more regulated end, but I was feeling myself kind of escalate. And I thought to myself in my own head, Okay, wait a second. We are now in a place of fight or flight in this conversation. Like, the other person is not even hearing what I'm saying, is not able to respond. Like, something else has gotten triggered here. And I realized I need to sort of be, you know, like, in nervous system language, like, I need to be the co-regulator of— I need to slow my voice down. I need to make sure I'm breathing and relaxing my body, and I need to talk in ways that are very intentionally non-threatening, because we're not even talking about what we're talking about anymore, you know. But it was like just such an interesting moment of like, the kindest thing that I can do in this situation, because it really wasn't an argument between us, it was just, it was about something else, was to take control of the situation by getting myself regulated so I could let them sort of borrow that regulation that they couldn't access in that moment, you know. And that was That was kind of a profound realization of it's not just being in control for my own sake, to be more persuasive or to just kind of maintain my equilibrium. But sometimes, you know, people can get triggered in conversations for reasons that really don't have anything to do with you. And they need—

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And even to your point, I mean, the mutual benefit, the double benefit of the pause before you say anything, what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. You know, when you do take the pause, the other benefit is not only does it calm yourself down, it calms the other person down. So sometimes I might pause before I say something, not so much to even control what I say, it's to make the other person slow down. Because when you can tell they're getting triggered, they're getting worked up, they're starting to raise their voice, And when you add in that space, they understand and they hear that they're going to have to come down to match my energy. And that's going to always equal a much better conversation.

By the way, this works with toddlers too.

Oh, yeah.

If you have young kids, you're doing this all the time, either positively or negatively. But I've had this moment so many times with my own kids. Where you have to be the one to regulate the conversation down. Because, my gosh, if you follow them, you're going to be on the floor kicking and screaming like they are before you know it.

With regard to control, you kind of have that 3-part framework, right? Starts with the breath. One of the things that I find is difficult is I can be swept up into an argument and very self-unaware of what's happening. But you've got a way to prevent against that. That you talk about in small talk. So could you unpack that?

Yeah, there are these little things I call small talks. There's nothing fancy to it. It's simply a talk that you have with yourself. If there's one person you should know better than anyone, it should be yourself. That's a statement in and of itself, doing that inner work. But small talks are these phrases that begin with a verb that help ground you in conversation. And it started with, I was in trial, I would write things at the top of my notepad that would ground me. And these are little things like, "You be Jefferson," or, "Let the facts speak for themselves." Little things that would help center me in conversation. Now, I'm not saying every person in every conversation is like, "Well, I need to have this granola woo-woo moment where I have this enlightenment." before I have this conversation. No, it's just, it's something short and simple. And you want to begin with a verb. Maybe it's as simple as be assertive, or stand up straight, or stand firm, or be still. Little things that you can say to yourself when you feel that you're coming undone. Everybody has these arguments where all of a sudden you feel unsteady. I feel, I feel like I'm spiraling. I feel like I'm coming unraveled. These moments where it's not great. And these small talks are just something to help guide you. One of my favorites is a, a client that I had. She, she's so sweet, and she was always very timid, but her grandmother was not. Her grandmother's name was, uh, Doris. And she'd get all sassy. She'd say, she had no problem telling somebody what she thought. And whenever she would get on a tear, her husband, my client's grandfather, would say, "You tell him, Doris. You tell him, Doris." That would be their line. You know, I can already see it. Like, he's got his paper, not even looking up at her, and she's going on about something. He'd say, "You tell it, Doris. Yeah, you got it." That was her small talk. So whenever she felt like, no, no, you know what? I do need to say something. I do need to— I'm not going to just say yes or okay when that's just not the truth. And so that was her small talk. You tell them, Doris. And I loved it.

That's hilarious. What a great story.

Yeah, well, I think it goes to the fact that we need to be more thoughtful in these conversations, particularly the ones that are high stake and there's a lot of stress around it, or we have a lot of history of conflict in that relationship. But I can think of one relationship that I have where unfortunately it devolves into political conflict. So much so that I said at one point, we're just never going to talk about politics again because it's just too nerve-wracking. Yeah. And I think there's a way to have that conversation. And in fact, we have had a couple of subsequent conversations where it's been easier because I think that both of us have been more mindful of that.

Yeah. Being thoughtful is such an important concept for any conversation, especially the difficult ones. Political arguments, political conversations tend to be so because we tie them to the collective.

We believe that there is a good side and a bad side.

And neither side is— we don't say there's a good side and a good side. One is bad, one is good, and the bad side is never ours. And we want to tie them to a bigger picture of, no, this is the one that's winning, and the other says, no, this is the side that's winning.

Who—

is there ever a finish line? Is there ever a win? No, and nothing— it's always going to continue to go on. But I think some of it too is people desperately want to feel important and they want to feel right. And you add that with people who mostly talk politics, like my grandfather and his brother could not be any polar opposite on the political spectrum. And they do this thing where they'll get in a shouting match over politics that will never touch their life. Understand, nothing that's happening in politics is ever going to touch them. It's not going to change a bit about their world. It doesn't matter at all. They're just home all day thinking of things to grapple about, and they will get to arguing with each other, and then they hang up. They hang up on each other. They get, they get so mad they hang up, and by the afternoon they call again, and then they're just as happy as can be. They don't talk politics at all. And so, but I think some of it too, of especially older generations, they just want to feel like something matters, and they want to feel like they can get up in arms about something. I see this a lot, like older attorneys They may not have that many clients. When I have them in hearings, they can just be mean. And it's because you have to just kind of let them go because they're trying to feel alive in that moment. They're trying to feel like something they say matters. And I have an opinion, and by God, I'm going to share that opinion. It's the only opinion that matters. And they can't really back it up, but who cares? And so I, I think that is exactly right, being thoughtful in conversations is incredibly important. And knowing that when you can control yourself is the first step, because you can't control anything else about what they are doing. You can't control a thing of it. You can only control yourself, trying to bring them to match your energy.

One of the things I have learned after raising 5 daughters and my wife. So 6 very important women in my life.

You didn't really raise her though.

I didn't raise her. She raised me, to be truth be told. But at any rate, one of the things I've noticed, and they've maybe noticed this about me too, is that when they're upset, if I will just hold space to hear them out, it will burn out.

I love that when people say hold space, they really mean just be quiet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is true. I mean, it's I love the visual of, I'm just holding this space for you. I'm here, I'm present. This is a safe place, we got this. In practice, it just means I'm not saying a word. It means I am going to listen without trying to solve it, without trying to say, well, what you need to do is, like any of that, you can just throw that out the window when you can simply listen Easier said than done. What I try to teach my kids, whenever somebody is upset about something, you have to let them get it all out. It's this visual of there's no way I could pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full. You got to let it— let them pour it all out before they'll ever be willing to accept anything that you say. And that's particularly true with changing anyone's mind. I mean, you can't, you're not going to change somebody's mind in 2 sentences and say, what an idiot, how can you possibly think that? That's never going to get them to change their mind. They're never going to say, oh, you're so right, I am such an idiot. What did you say? Oh yes, that's correct. Like nobody's going to ever say that. And nobody can do it over 1 conversation. It's typically, it might take conversation after conversation over 6 months or a year. Before you can change somebody's mind.

Here's a hard truth. If you don't advocate for yourself, nobody will. And if you don't assert your needs, let's face it, you will get walked over every single time. At the end of today's episode, you're not going to have to worry about it. We're talking how to stand up for yourself. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. Because number 1, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality. And we're going to talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number 2, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before you say what you need to say, like, hey, I'm sorry, but I just feel like maybe— we're going to talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number 3, Stop justifying the nos. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turn somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence, and I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they threw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to. And often that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life. The people that, that rank low in our priority list, but yet we, we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk. Eliminate that concern. When people play chess, it's expected that you're gonna take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook, Okay, they want to take a queen. That's different. Understand that there's going to be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life. Lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you had the choice of just letting it go, saying, that does not require any response from me, that is not worth my time. That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, ask the question, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy, because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Because I, I know my worth. And please understand, that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not gonna be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm gonna take it and set it aside. Personally, what I do in my own life is I have a wastebasket, all right? I have a trash bag right next to me in my mind. And if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them, I have to pick up that trash, that gross nasty thing that they said, and give it right back to them, I just take it and move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like at a computer or a laptop, you just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a— I don't know, what do they have, like the cold plunge or a pool that's filled with cold water. If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse. When you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them, this sounds like, "Hey, you know, I've just been— I just feel like I need to say this, I guess. It's—" And maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but you ever heard that? Ever said that before? Where you say, "Ah, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm sorry, but maybe, you know—" I'm just feeling more like you are trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, when it comes to stating your needs, nobody's going to do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices. You don't say it at all, or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, they don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of, I'm going to put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not going to feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not going to feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time. If it is something that is on your heart and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it right here for you to be able to state your piece assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're going to talk later in this podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying no because after the end of it, using that word because to justify it and just saying no. For example, let's say you ask me a question and I just said, "No." "No." Versus, "No, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about and, you know, I got to make sure that I take care of this and it's just been really busy lately and I've just been so stressed, you know, and so, well, I have that other thing, you know." You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden, I've added 3 more sentences after the no and I've slowly water down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying no because. It's just no. And if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, all right, on this idea of Just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation, or if there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal— it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer. You add in everything afterwards. No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z. You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say and what I support is no is a complete sentence. You don't have—

one thing I've noticed about you, you're not one-word reliant. So I want to ask you about that. Just a couple more hacks, you guys, before we wrap up. But a lot of people will overuse— you just did a piece of content I loved on people who say like, like, like, like, like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like. In my case, I have this reliance on literally. I overuse the word literally, right? I've just noticed it listening to my stage speaking, listening to podcasts. I literally use literally too much. So let's just take somebody even who uses the word like, I mean, and by the way, and everyone listening right now, you probably have a phrase or word that you use way more than you realize, right? They do. And so I'm wondering about any strategy or tactic. We could even stay on like if you choose, but should people be aware they do that to some extent as well? And I want to say literally, so I'll just let you answer. Well, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, they're all adverbs.

They're all adverbs, words that end in -ly, or they, they try and do things in sentences that add a lot of fluff. So like is one of them. So, just, literally, essentially.

I have a best friend who always starts a sentence with, so basically, like, you don't—

those are both adverbs.

It's very easy to do because we use that in social casual conversation. If you want to eliminate using the word like all the time, swap it for the word because. It forces you to move the conversation forward. So instead of saying something to the effect of, I didn't like when you said that, like it really made me feel less, versus I didn't like when you said that because It made me feel less.

It's adding the cause and effect in there.

Like, it's just a fluff filler word.

Literally is, as you know, also a big ad word.

And what they do is they just water down your sentences.

They don't mean anything.

I, my, my one that I have is just, which is not great either.

So you can tell the difference of somebody going, hey, just want to check in versus I wanted to check in.

You remove the word just, it doesn't sound nearly as hesitant.

The biggest thing with adverbs is you find a way not to use them.

Like literally there's not a, there's not a flip or a word I would say you need to replace it with this. It's just not using the word.

That's a lot easier, easier said than done of trying to catch yourself.

And there's nothing wrong with them in casual conversation. It's when you're wanting to be assertive, when you're having to have a really important conversation, the literally kind of just clogs up the sentence because they don't know what to do with it. They hear it like— there's a difference between if I were to say, so like, I mean, literally, if—

I mean, and maybe you don't think this way, but so I was just thinking like, but essentially, and you're like, what are they saying?

Versus just scrapping all of that and getting right to the—

getting right to the point.

If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.