Liars HATE This One Trick...Because It Works | Jefferson Fisher

When somebody tells you something that you know to be a lie, number 1, take a pause and say, I need to come back to this conversation. I need to come back to this conversation. If they're telling you the truth, no problem. They're going to say, okay, take your time. But if they're not telling the truth, oh, they're not going to like it because I'm going to get upset about it because I know I'm telling the truth. I know what I ate. You need to take a break from the conversation. You need to think about something. Something feels off to you. Okay, let's talk about it. Why does it feel off? But I know what I did. I don't have to— often when people are delaying that conversation, the more liars are going to twist off. Just be prepared for that. Well, I like to start off with number 1 of this is something that I need to come back to. When you say I need to come back to this conversation or I need to think about this, it's delaying it. You're saying, okay, I hear you, I need to do some thought on my own, process this, and then come back. In other words, I need to do some research. Liars don't like you to do research. They want you to just buy exactly what they said. So understand that that is something that is going to be part of that package when you say, I need some time to think about this. And it also empowers you to say, look, I, I know what I heard, but I also know what I know. I know my facts. So I'm going to take some time with this and I'm going to think things out. That's the way to respond in those situations. Another reason that I like number 2— what's, what's wrong? You go something, something feels off. People who are telling the truth have no problem talking with you through it. Okay, just let's, let's talk about it. What, what feels off? Let's talk. People who are liars don't want to talk. They don't want to talk. They just want you to believe. They want you to take it hook, line, and sinker. So they will have this big reaction. Don't be afraid. And when, if in that moment they try to what they call gaslight you, or try to say that you're— attack your character. They attack you personally and say you're crazy, you're insane. Do you know how literally insane you sound right now? Don't take that kind of bait. That's all it is. It's just bait. They're going to try and get a rise out of you because the more upset that these people can make you— people with toxic traits or narcissistic tendencies— they're trying to get a rise out of you to get you more upset. And now you're fighting about the lie, and you know what they're going to do? They're going to keep going, keep going all the way to a level 12, and then they'll flip on you. They'll flip and say, I don't know why you're always attacking me. You know, you never believe me. You remember what you did 4 months ago? Something that they bring up the past, and all of a sudden they're pointing out that they're the victim and you're the one that's the attacker or the offender, just not believing them and never understanding them, and you don't really get them. And now all of a sudden you feel like you're in a position where they're wanting some kind of apology. When you add silence and add delay, even 10, 15 seconds of silence makes a huge difference when it comes to handling somebody who's a liar. Because if you were to say, if you were to point out right away, that's a lie, you're a liar, you think they're going to go, yep, you're right, you. And all of a sudden it's just going to get worse. They'll double down on it and you're going to have to peel back layer upon layer. But if you just give the silence, they will have that conversation for you. They will have the conversation in their head that, oh my gosh, they're not buying. Okay, I need to, I need to tweak. I need to pivot. I need to say something else, or I need to a little bit more reveal the truth without you having to say a thing. Now that, that is true control. I'm going to share a story real quick with you. When I was probably about 3 years ago, I had a case and often find they want to be a smooth liar. They want everything to be just fine for you to take their story. But the more suspicious you are, the more they will push back at you. Understand that those who tell the truth, they really have no problem with it. You take all the time you need. I know my truth is my truth. So let's put it in an innocent example. Let's say you asked me, you said, Jefferson, what did you eat for breakfast this morning? And I said, oatmeal. And they go, I don't, I don't, I don't know about that. Are you lying to me? I'd say no. And the more defensive they got, the less— In car wrecks, a major issue is texting while driving, as you can imagine. Now, people don't like admitting that they're texting while driving. Everybody does it. And it's terrible. It's a major, major cause of commercial and personal auto case accidents. So a part of the question generally in a deposition is whether somebody was texting. Well, I was talking to this guy, taking his deposition. He was on the other side of me. And I asked him, I said, you were, were you texting while driving? Automatically said, no, no, I never text while I drive. Problem number one, he just said, I never. Never is an absolute. So if you're going to use an absolute, if you're going to say never, it better be never. So first thing he said was, I never text while I drive. Well, here's the thing. I already had his cell phone records. I had all of his mobile records. You don't know what people are texting. You just can see the transmission of when they send a text, when it was received. I already had all that because his attorney gave it to me. It's part of the trial. So I already know I have that, but I don't bring it up right away. Instead, I just give about 10 seconds of nothing. 10 seconds of nothing. And I just kind of looked around the room, looked at him for a second, and in that moment, within not even 10 seconds, he said, well, I mean, I, you know, I, I sometimes I do, but most, most of the time I don't. Right there. Okay, he just, what they call in Texas, crawfished here in the South, meaning you're backing up, you're backing up what you just said. You're actually going back on it, saying, well, I mean, he went from I always or I never to, which is an absolute, to, well, I mean, I sometimes do, but I wasn't doing it right then. All I did was repeat his lie. I just repeated it. I said, you never text while you drive? All of a sudden he started like, well, I mean, I mean, I mean, sometimes I do, sometimes I do. And I gave it a little bit more time, and then I followed it up with, you were texting your coworker that day, weren't you? At that point, he was so far off the ledge that you're inviting him to come back. And at that point, he was just kind of relieved. He's like, yeah, I think I was. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I was. And at that point, I just tweak a little bit more.

You were.

It's not a you think you were. You were. Yes, I was. Boom. Right then, I don't have to call him out as a liar. I don't have to have this big ordeal. I don't have to try and hurt his credibility in a harmful way. I can still be respectful and give him just a chance to walk off the plank. Often just giving that moment of silence and letting them hear their thoughts and saying, nobody in this room is believing this right now. They understand that all their feet, the floor underneath them, the carpet underneath them just got pulled. They have nothing else to stand on, and they'll go back to safety because they know that their lie is not being taken. Now we're at the point of the podcast where I get to read a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my newsletter, I send a communication tip once a week right to your inbox where you can ask me questions and I get to respond to it. It's a lot of fun for me, and I always pull one so I can talk about it in the podcast. This one is from April. April is in Nashville, Tennessee. Jefferson, I love your stuff so much. Thank you, April. I have an issue whenever I'm trying to explain something. Sometimes I try to— I am elaborating too much, or I'm trying to over-explain, but some people feel like I am telling a lie when I'm really not. I'm just trying to clarify. Can you help give me some guidance there? April, I You're not the only one. All right, that's the first thing is you're not the only one. There are a lot of people who feel like they just need to get it all out. They just need to get it all out. But sometimes the more that you say, the more it looks like you're trying to hide the truth. Let me tell you the difference. All right, it's when you're getting to the point. Often, if I were going to ask you a question that is generally a yes or no question, oh, you know, uh, or something that is a very clear fact, like What time did you get home last night? Or did you stop by the store yesterday? These are very clear things. Is it a yes or a no? Do you have a time or do you not have a time? Often people look like they're lying when they don't say that yes or no or that fact right out of the gate. Instead, they leave it for the very end. So if I were going to ask you, you know, did you go to the store yesterday, which is a yes or no, They'll go, well, I mean, it's— well, I mean— and they'll start talking about, well, first I went here and then I went there, and they lay out this timeline. There are a lot of people who, they will have to say a timeline first, like, well, I went here, then you said that, and then I did this, and they need to construct it in a certain way to get it all out. There's nothing wrong with that. You just have to be careful to make sure that they're— when somebody's giving you that time frame, they're not reconstructing it in a way that does not match what you know. Of the facts. But what causes the problem, April, is when you wait to the very end to say that yes or a no. If I ask you what time it is and you start talking about something else, and at the whole point I'm thinking, why aren't you answering my question? Why aren't you answering my question? You're just trying to explain. What I hear is you're trying to delay and you're trying to hide. What can eliminate that is when you give the, the answer, your point, right out of the gate, and then say Can I explain? Period. Did you go to the store yesterday? Yes, I did. Can I share with you something else? All right, that's going to give you a whole lot more room to say, I'd like to— I need to get some stuff off my chest. Or there's sometimes a question isn't a yes or a no. Lots of times my clients get in a deposition, they get asked questions, and what I train them on is some questions aren't a yes or a no. They're not black and white, but attorneys sometimes will try and corner them, and some people try to corner you into certain conversations. Instead, you just answer with, that's not a yes or no question for me. That question can't be answered in a yes or no. That's what I teach them. I can't answer that question in a yes or a no. Can I explain? Or I'm happy to explain, and I'm happy to share some more on it. So I don't want you to feel pressured that just because you need to explain things, it means that you're not telling the truth. That's not— it's not what that means. All that means is you just need to rearrange the structure of your sentences. Give the point at the very beginning, then explain, rather than first thing out of your mouth is, "Let me explain." As soon as you say that first without giving the point, so if I ask you a question and you say, "Let me explain," people go, "Oh great, you're not gonna give me the answer. You're hiding the answer. You're delaying the answer." And it makes you look more like you're not telling the truth. So what I would encourage you to do is try to say the yes or no, the answer, direct answer up front, and then follow up with an explanation that supports that answer, not the other way around. The next time that someone tries to gaslight you, here's what I want you to do. Number 1, if they say, "I didn't say that," instead of chasing it and saying, "Yes, you did," or, "Then what did I say?" which allows them to manipulate the narrative, you're going to slowly respond, "That's what I heard. That's what I heard." It doesn't allow them to flip any message, and it keeps you in a position of strength. Number 2, if they try to personally attack you and say things like, "You're crazy. You need help," you're going to calmly respond, "I need someone who's helpful. I need someone who's helpful." What you're doing is saying, "You're not the person that I need in this conversation, and you're not being part of the solution, and that's where I'm going." Number 3, if they say something like, You're imagining things. You're going to say from a position of strength and assertiveness, I do not imagine facts. Here's where you can get almost a little bit indignant. I do not imagine facts. What you're saying is, I know exactly what happened. I know what my facts are, and I'm not coming away from it. And before I continue, I want to make sure that I give this disclaimer. All right, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. If you have legitimate questions about gaslighting, feel free to ask them. I'm going to tell you what I know it to be and what I've interacted with in my line of work in the legal field. Gaslighting is a term that can be thrown around way too easily, okay? It's, it seems to be a very easy replacement for somebody who just simply disagrees with you that you don't really like. That's not it. So be careful with that term. Gaslighting is a much more serious issue, and the goal of it is to make you question your reality, to make you question who you are and how you make judgments and decisions about things. In a very simple example, let's say you and I are sitting across from each other and I start tapping my pen, and then I stop. I start tapping my pen again. You go, I need you to stop. I go, what are you talking about? You were tapping your pen. I said, no, I'm not. No, I wasn't. I've never been tapping my pen.

And I tap it a little bit later, and again I denied.

I said, you're just making things up. You're imagining things. Over time, that's a very elementary example, but in a bigger scheme of things, things happen that somebody is seeing and you're noticing, but they deny it. Deny that anything happened, and they start to make you feel bad about yourself, that you're wrong in your decision-making, wrong in your memory, and then that you're just a person who feels very unsure about who they are in their reality. Make you question everything, make you question the veracity, the truthfulness of things, and it's a way to manipulate you to form control. If people— if I were to say to you, everybody thinks you're crazy, and I hate to tell you this, but like all your friends, they hate you. Like nobody likes— nobody likes you. And I do that from a position of I'm the one with the inaccuracy. It's gaslighting, manipulative behavior. And some of the biggest things to watch out for is talking about the past. And I can't tell you enough When you get in those situations, you need to say less. You have very short sentences because it gives them less to play with. That's why when I give you these little phrases to use, they're not big explanations. They're short. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. I cannot imagine facts. Little things that once you say them, they can't really do anything with them. And your response when they go, "Oh," and they get all frustrated is just you repeat them. You say them again, and they really can't do anything. And they'll get frustrated, they'll leave, they'll change the subject. But just understand, that's what it is. It's manipulative behavior to have you under their control, and that's something I will not allow.

How to handle— what to say when you're dealing with a liar lying right to your face, even when you present proof to them. This infuriates me beyond belief. Thank you so much, Jefferson. Pamela, I'm sorry that you're dealing with that. Here's what I want to say at the outset: if you've presented proof to someone and you know that they're lying, you're showing them that they're lying, they're going, "No, that's not me. Sorry, I don't—" and they're still gonna lie to your face despite the proof, that is not somebody you want in your life, Pamela. That is not somebody you need to safeguard. That is not somebody that you want to be around. Because what happens is you end up lying to yourself, lying to yourself that they can be fixed, lying to yourself that this is a good person, this is a moral person, this is someone with integrity, this is someone with character. You're lying to yourself that that they can be different. And lying to yourself is one of the worst things of all. So I don't want you to do that, Pamela. That would be my first thought for you there. For anybody who's listening, if you're like Pamela and you've shown proof to somebody and they're still acting like nothing's wrong, you know them to be a liar, then you're lying to yourself if you continue to keep this person into your life, or at least as close as they are. You need to keep distance. From these kind of people to preserve your peace. All right. Two, anytime I've dealt with liars, time is their enemy. They don't like you to slow down interactions. They want the quick buy-in. I want to give a lie, they want you to buy into it really, really quick. That's why liars often are very fast talkers. Fast talkers. Anytime you slow down the interaction, they don't like that. So I've had it plenty of times when I'm deposing witnesses and I know that they're lying to me. How do I know? Because I proof, I have evidence that they're lying. I haven't showed them yet, but I know that they're lying. And they'll start talking to me and they'll say something I know to be a lie.

And then right after they're finished telling the lie, I go really quiet, like awkwardly long quiet.

And the liar will just, they'll start to wilt. They get nervous. They start talking to themselves.

They start having conversations for me.

They'll start having conversations like, well, why would you think I would do that? Or they might, what we call down here, crawfish. They might start to back up. They might start to back off the lie. They might say, well, I mean, you know, sometimes, I mean, sometimes I don't do it all the time, but I mean, maybe, I mean, I could have, I mean, it was pretty dark.

And they try to start to—

because it's a very high stress, high conflict environment where I'm asking them questions. And often when somebody is caught in a lie or caught in a situation where it's not putting them in the best light, the very, the most cunning, the best liars will attempt to gaslight the situation. And this is what it sounds like. They will go, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's go back. That's a key phrase right there.

Let's go back.

And they want to go to the very beginning of the timeline to them. And they want to go, okay, this said this, and he said this, and she said this. And they want to construct the narrative totally on their own. It's like they're rewriting history where I have the facts, I have the records, but yet they are starting to just lie. And you can tell they just drop little lies over time to where at the end result, they expect that the only answer I could possibly have is that they're the one that is the most righteous, they're the one that is the most justified, that everything they've done is rational and reasonable, when really They are just digging a hole and asking me to fill it. This is what I mean. Often gaslighting is, the way I picture it, is they dig holes and then kind of trick you, entice you into filling it. So they'll say some kind of lie, and then you get really defensive and go, that's not what happened, no, no, and they go, okay, what happened? And they're asking you to fill, just pick up a shovel and put the hole back in it. And then they go to another lie and you go, no, that's not— no, what are you talking about? And you pick up your shovel and you start filling another hole. So all they do is just go around where you're losing control, like a cat and a laser pointer, that they're holding the laser pointer all over the wall in the different areas of the room, and you're the cat just chasing it from point to point to point, not seeing that it's all about control. It's all about control. The more focused you are on constructing your own bridge, the more they're making yours fall apart without you even seeing it. So the key overarching message when it comes to gaslighting behavior is the less you say, the less they can control, the less they can do with it. That's why for them, bringing up the past is really just their playground, because they can construct the history of it in a way that puts them in the best spot and you at the most disadvantage. And so whenever you feel like, I'm just, I feel like I'm just chasing accuracy over miscommunication over inaccuracy and inaccuracy, it's gaslighting, manipulative behavior. And some of the biggest things to watch out for is talking about the past. And I can't tell you enough When you get in those situations, you need to say less. You have very short sentences because it gives them less to play with. That's why when I give you these little phrases to use, they're not big explanations. They're short. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. I cannot imagine facts. Little things that once you say them, they can't really do anything with them. And your response when they go, and they get all frustrated, is just you repeat them. You say them again, and they really can't do anything, and they'll get frustrated, they'll leave, they'll change the subject. But just understand, that's what it is. It's manipulative behavior to have you under their control, and that's something I will not allow.

How to handle, what to say when you're dealing with a liar lying right to your face, even when you present proof to them. This infuriates me beyond belief. Thank you so much, Jefferson. Pamela, I'm sorry that you're dealing with that. Here's what I want to say at the outset. If you've presented proof to someone and you know that they're lying, you're showing them that they're lying, they're going, "No, that's not me. Sorry, I don't—" and they're still gonna lie to your face despite the proof, that is not somebody you want in your life, Pamela. That is not somebody you need to safeguard. That is not somebody that you want to be around. Because what happens is you end up lying to yourself, lying to yourself that they can be fixed, lying to yourself that this is a good person, this is a moral person, this is someone with integrity, this is someone with character. You're lying to yourself that that they can be different.

And lying to yourself is one of the worst things of all.

So I don't want you to do that, Pamela. That would be my first thought for you there. For anybody who's listening, if you're like Pamela and you've shown proof to somebody and they're still acting like nothing's wrong, you know them to be a liar, then you're lying to yourself if you continue to keep this person into your life, or at least as close as they are. You need to keep distance. From these kind of people to preserve your peace. All right. Two, anytime I've dealt with liars, time is their enemy. They don't like you to slow down interactions. They want the quick buy-in. When they give a lie, they want you to buy into it really, really quick. That's why liars often are very fast talkers. Fast talkers. Anytime you slow down the interaction, they don't like that. So I've had it plenty of times when I'm deposing witnesses and I know that they're lying to me. How do I know? Because I have proof, I have evidence that they're lying. I haven't showed them yet, but I know that they're lying. And they'll start talking to me and they'll say something I know to be a lie. And then right after they're finished telling the lie, I go really quiet, like awkwardly long quiet. And the liar will just, they'll start to wilt. They get nervous. They start talking to themselves.

They start having conversations for me.

They'll start having conversations like, well, why would you think I would do that? Or they might, what we call down here, crawfish. They might start to back up. They might start to back off the lie. They might say, well, I mean, you know, sometimes, I mean, sometimes I don't do it all the time, but I mean, maybe, I mean, I could have, I mean, it was pretty dark. And they try to start to resurrect and fix their story, or they're asking for input from me to try and fix their melting sandcastle. They might say something like, well, what do you, what do you think happened? I mean, why would you, why would you think I, I wouldn't? You know, because they're wanting to hear me so they can take it, spin another lie, and try and fix the wall that's starting to break on their lie. So time is to your advantage. Third is use little phrases that is going to clue them in that you're not believing it. These are phrases that I like to use, and this is, something feels off. They might say, what do you think? And I go, I don't know. Something feels off. I can't put my finger on it. I don't know. Something feels off. And it will just absolutely drive them nuts. Or I'll say, I need to come back to this conversation. Give it a good pause and say, I need to come back to this conversation. I've done it in a deposition before where I said, I'm going to come back to this question. I think I'm going to come back to this question. And I've just seen them go wide-eyed, like, please don't. They just know I'm not buying it. So it is you standing your ground. And you see, I'm using short little phrases and questions rather than going, that's not true. That's not what happened. You're lying. You're not telling the truth. You see how when I'm doing that, all I'm doing is just giving more power, more control to them for them to do something with it. They're trying to pull that emotional energy, that emotional attention out of you to do something with it. And the more it's, the more an argument they can make with you, it's just more of when there's, where there's smoke, there's fire. So if they can make enough smoke and go, look, it obviously happened, we just argued about it, we just spent 30 minutes. And it's all— it's almost as if the more you talk about it and the more you deny it and the more they deny it, the more that it actually existed. And that's not what you want. So slow it down. If, of course, you've presented proof, Pamela, and they're still going to lie about it, then they are a liar. And that is not somebody you need to have around you.

Pamela.

All right, so I just want you to be careful and protect yourself.

Now, on the outside, they look totally normal. Maybe you're related to one. Maybe you work with one. But a narcissist reveals themselves as soon as they open their mouth. Now, if you don't know exactly what a narcissist is, as if you've heard this term a lot but you're not really sure how to define it, I'm going to break it down very easy, and it is simply somebody who cannot imagine thinking about someone else. They can't put themselves in somebody else's shoes. It's always about them, about how great they are, how wonderful they are. If somebody else is having a good time, they need to be having a better time. If they're frustrated, they need you more frustrated. They understand that it is not empathy that they do. It is all about the gratification of oneself, and they just can't get there. It always has to be about them. They're always the victim, and it will always be that way. And the best thing about a narcissist typically is they have no problem telling you that they're a narcissist. So here's some tools that I'm going to give you the next time that you find yourself talking to a narcissist. Number 1, don't play the game. Anytime you're talking to a narcissist, you are playing a game. It's a game I call praise or provoke. But at the end, we're gonna find it's a rigged carnival game. It's not something that you can win, so we're not going to play it. Number 2, anytime that you feel like you don't know what to do, understand that the best move you can often make is no move at all. And we're going to talk about exactly how to do that. And number 3, rather than getting yourself worked up as if you need to prove to them that they need to see the wrong of their ways and they need to apologize. It's probably never going to happen, at least to the extent that you want. Instead, there are ways that you have to look within and understand that you don't need an apology to validate your own feelings. All right. How to talk to a narcissist. Now, I want you to understand for a minute, I am no psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm not somebody that has a degree in this. So I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm not in a place to diagnose somebody as a narcissist. And unless you really have the ability to clinically diagnose somebody, you have to be very careful when you use that word. It's often overused for anybody that's doing something negative that they don't like, or maybe they're just not understanding you in a certain way and they're not being willing to understand you. It's easy to just throw over a blanket and consider them a narcissist. I want you to be very careful about that. So that disclaimer out there, there are people that are diagnosed as narcissists, and there are others that just have narcissistic tendencies or behaviors. So I want to make sure you understand that distinction. I typically see narcissistic behavior in my line of work. I see it among attorneys, certainly, when you have that kind of ego of who's right and who's wrong and who has more cases, who's been more successful. I see that a lot, but often it's in cross-examination. I am cross-examining somebody, let's say they're an expert in something, or it's a personality that's on the other side of the fence as me in a case, and I have to cross-examine them, and they're just never going to admit any kind of blame despite the evidence that suggests otherwise. And so the tools that I'm gonna be discussing with you today, I want you to understand are about as practical as they can be, because there is a place that you have to go in your mind to be able to regulate yourself. I want you to understand, are about as practical as they can be, because there is a place that you have to go in your mind to be able to regulate yourself and go to when you know that you are talking to a behavior like this, that you have to separate that person from their behavior and understand that what they're doing is a game, which is why rule number 1 is don't play the game. Anytime you're talking to a narcissist, you are walking into their trap. That is a game that they like to play. I call it praise or provoke. In other words, if they don't feel like you're praising them enough, if they're not getting enough accolades in the discussion, They will turn to provoke. They will start an argument with you because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. And you feel like it's something you can win. You feel like when you get into that bad argument that you can show them their ways of how they're not listening to you. And go to when you know that you are talking to a behavior like this, that you have to separate that, how they're not understanding you, but they will not do it. It is a rigged carnival game because it is that control that they like. They feed off of that control. Have you ever been in a person from their behavior and understand that what they're doing is a game? Conversation with somebody and you talk well about a third person. Maybe it's a mutual friend that you have and you're saying something nice about that person. The narcissist Which is why rule number 1 is don't play the game. A narcissist will typically go, "Oh, well, yeah, well, I've heard about X, Y, and Z," and say something terrible about this person. Or they'll say, "Oh yeah, well, I mean, I did this. How about me?" They'll try and focus and put that spotlight on them. Narcissists want that spotlight entirely on them. Unless they've done something wrong, then they'll quickly try and put it on you. The key here is anytime you're talking to a narcissist, you are walking into their trap. That is a game that they— understand that this is a game. Often it is a game. It is a, um, something that they enjoy in the back of their mind. And the best thing you can do is not play that game. So key number 1 is recognition, recognizing that you are in a game and you're going to choose to take your pieces off of the board. You don't have to play it. And that's why rule number 2 is that the best move you can make is no move at all. Meaning silence is your best friend. Often when you're in a conflict with a narcissist and they're saying terrible things, you want to push back against it. You want to think that you can beat it. Instead, often the best move is to say nothing. Silence, the best thing about it is that it can never be misquoted. It can't be twisted in some sense and repeated back to you over and over, manipulated and stretched into something. Often you have this urge to say more and say longer things, throw in 4 sentences, 6 sentences of all this reasoning that's logical and reasonable, but they don't do that. They like to play. I call it praise or provoke. In other words, if they don't feel like you're praising them enough, if they're not getting enough accolades in the discussion, they take those sentences and they string them apart and they'll pick out one word and flip it. And all of a sudden they're the ones that look like the victim. That's the play, is they will flip that script. They will turn to provoke. They will start an argument with you. Because they like to twist it and make it look like they're the victim. They're the ones under attack when you know that's not the truth. Silence can never be misquoted. And if you do anything at all, we're going to stay neutral in the conversation. When I say, delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise, and you feel like it's neutral, I'm meaning you are refraining from saying things that are hurtful, because they will lay this trap expecting you, hoping that you will say something ugly. You will say something disrespectful, rude in some sense, to put them down, because that's what they've been doing, right? They've been throwing these arrows, and no problem. But as soon as you do, oh, they act like, uh, woe is me, and you're the worst person alive. And now you're trying to play the comparison game, and it's You're going to be out of depth very quickly when you go into that who's more wrong. So often when you want to stay neutral in the conversation, that means you're going to be saying, "Noted. That's good to know. Okay. I hear you." You're going to be using these little bitty phrases, meaning you're not going to continue to give conversation. You're not going to put back and put a defense back and say, "Well, yeah, what if—" But what about— that's going to just make it worse with a narcissist. Instead, you want to be neutral in that conversation. Go, okay, noted. Thank you for saying that. I understand. Anything that gives them no something you can win. You feel like when you get into that bad argument that you can show them the ability to grab onto nothing for them to carry on to in the conversation. So the more neutral you can be, on just their ways, how they're not listening to you. Monotone, nothing that's engaging in any way, nothing that's pressing back on them. That's going to be a source of strength. And number 3, I want you to understand where you need to go in your mind when you're communicating with how they're not understanding you, but they will not do it. It is a rigged carnival game because it is that control. The narcissist, there is this tendency that we have within us to make them want to understand our point of view. It's very easy to get into this push and pull of control that they like. They feed off of that control. Have you ever been in a— gosh, they just, they're not listening to me, they, they only think about themselves. How can I get them? What can I say to, to click on the light bulb and make them think about what it's like on my side. Not going to happen. I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to happen. They can't. They can't do that. All right, so stop trying. Stop digging that hole time and time again and expecting them to fill it. It's just going to be an empty hole. Instead, I want you to get to a place in your mind where you think to yourself, instead of, man, they never— they only think about themselves, where you switch to say, it is time that I think about myself and my peace of mind and my source of strength and where I go to, where I draw my strength from, who I draw my strength from. Because there are friends and people in your life that want to fill you, that want to give to you. They want to be part of filling your cup. Narcissists will only take, and they will continue to take, and they'll continue to pour out. So understand there are givers in relationships and takers in relationships. Conversation with somebody and you talk well about a third person. Maybe it's a mutual friend that you have and you're saying something nice about that person. The narcissist, the same way in a conversation, So go into that mindset of you're not going to get that apology from them. Say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're right. I was totally stubborn. I was totally ignorant. I was so unreasonable in this. I was disrespectful. Narcissists will typically go, oh, well, yeah, well, I've heard about X, Y, and Z. Most likely never going to happen. So instead, understand that you don't need an apology to validate feelings. You don't need an apology to feel like a bow has been tied on that conversation. You can finally lay it to rest. No, you just need to put down the shovel and keep on walking. All right. And say something terrible about this person, or they'll say, oh yeah, well, I mean, I did this. How about which?

Videos of yours seem to relate most to your audience, to the algorithm, to the people that follow you?

The ones that are conflict-driven. So if I'm dealing with a bad argument, you're dealing with somebody who's narcissistic, you're dealing with somebody who has a difficult personality, uh, the, the hard stuff, the ugly stuff, the difficult stuff, how to maneuver those types of things tend to go, tend to hit more. But I'm hesitant to talk too much about narcissism. I'll do a video about that like every 5 weeks ago, or, you know, 5, 6 weeks or so. I just feel like it's too much of a dynamite for some people, you know. It's just some people that they make it their whole page all about that. Like, we didn't even have this word, I feel like, 2 years ago. It wasn't even—

it wasn't even a real word.

So I gotta You got to be careful. Too many people are real quick to just paint somebody as a narcissist just because they said something they don't like. So I'm very, very cautious about using that word.

Yeah, it becomes desensitized now for the people that actually are dealing with somebody who's like a diagnosed narcissist. Now their voice isn't heard as loud because, you know, it's been— the word's been so overexposed.

I don't think I've seen any DM from somebody who just said, you know, hey, I am going through something with a regular ex, a nice ex of mine. No, it's always a narcissistic ex. Every time it's whoever is not in my life anymore, or who is anymore, it's, it's always a narcissist.

So I, I'm not going to say they, they haven't been diagnosed.

I'm just saying there is a, a sense of discernment. Me.

They'll try and focus and put that spotlight on them. Narcissists want that spotlight entirely on them unless they've done something wrong, then they'll quickly try and put it on you.

The key here that you need to come into that conversation with, and for somebody who has a lot of followers and gives advice, is understand that this is a game.

Often it is a game. It is a, um, something that—

that's just all the more responsibility to be very careful with your words.

That they enjoy in the back of their mind.

And so for more difficult scenarios like the ones that you're talking about, harder conversations, people who are quote unquote difficult, is it the same playbook? Take the breath, practice the pause. It's the same thing.

Yeah, it's a lot of the same thing except you just, you know when to walk away very quickly because their words can be much more harmful. Understanding that when you're dealing with somebody who's a narcissistic type, it is a game in a sense. They either want to provoke you or they want the praise from you, and there's a line that comes with that. So it's more of informing them when they're in those situations and giving them a sense of just because you walk away does not mean you're a bad person. Just because you need to step away from a conversation does not mean that you've lost. Often, it's you've won. You've won your peace of mind. And, what are you walking away from or what are you walking away with? That's the difference.

[Speaker:BEN] Obviously, in your line of work, it can be easy to feel manipulated, feel like your reality can be warped and that maybe your truth isn't your truth. You question whether or not what you're thinking is actually what's going on because of just the dynamics of a court case or maybe what another lawyer might be saying to you or whatever. And, I think this also happens a lot in these more difficult conversations where because of the words of somebody else and what they're saying to them.

And the best thing you can do is not play that game. So key number 1 is recognition, recognizing that you are in a game and you're going to choose to take your pieces off of the board. You don't have to play it.

The person could have started out great, felt confident, felt, you know, like they had a level of self-respect, but now they're like, oh no, like maybe is this person right? Like, am I really doing those things? How do you maintain that balance to where you are able—

And that's why rule number 2 is that the best move you can make is no move at all.

Able to understand whether or not somebody's words to you are actually true and that, you know, you're not questioning your own reality in that situation?

Well, that touches on the elements of gaslighting, right? If somebody actually coming in and trying to take advantage of you by distorting your sense of reality and truth. What comes to mind is twofold. Really, you maintain that balance by understanding who you are and loving who you are. Often we want to look to other people for that validation of love because we have a hard time loving ourselves. And the more you are good with who you are, the more you're okay with, I'm okay if you misunderstand me. I'm okay. You know, if that's what you need to do, you go do it. I'll let you. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to take down anything else that I have. So there's that sense of loving who you are. The second end of that is to be firm. Often when I talk about it in terms of people who want to break up your self-esteem, who try to gaslight you in certain ways, it's somewhat like the laser pointer with a cat, right? They want to jump you from place to place to place. Even though you get there and there's no laser. It's all just distraction. It's manipulation. In that sense, you need to stand still and be still. One of the best ways to do that is to use phrases that I teach are, "I remember things differently." "I see that differently." "I take another approach." It's often just you meaning silence.

Is your best friend.

Often when you're in a using and repeating the same phrases, repeating means that you're standing still.

Conflict with a narcissist and they're saying terrible things, you want to push back against it. You want to think that you can beat it. Instead, often the best move—

because they might bring something up to you and you have that knee-jerk reaction and go, that's not what happened, that's not what I said.

Proof is to say nothing. Silence, the best thing about it is that it can never be misquoted. That's not true.

Well, you're just jumping around to where they want you, and it's, it's not where that is. Versus if I just repeat what I said, I see things differently. They want to distract you, you just repeat, I see things differently. You're standing still. It's like the person who's not responding to that text. You're saying, I got I got control over me, and that's the only person who does.

Do you think there's benefit to saying— it's one of, one of the things I've used in the past is like, it's okay, like, you have your truth, I have my truth, you have your perception of reality, I have my perception of reality, neither are right or wrong, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. Like, do you think that saying something like that can be effective, or am I not being assertive enough?

It depends on the situation, you know, it depends how, how much this person matters to you. Often I like to use an opening of, is this something we have to agree on? I use that a lot. I say a lot, I mean, I use that as an opening frequently. Is, is this something we have to agree on? Almost always the answer is no, because then it, it keys you into priority. Is this, is this something that matters? Is this something we really want to fight over? The second, it Answer is, if it is something you need to agree on, the question is, is that something we need to agree on now at this exact moment, at this exact second? Or if we wait until tomorrow or next week, is the world going to shut down? And so timing is a big aspect because often people will try to push you into conversations. And the problem you fall into is when you Agree to get into the ring when you're not ready. You're tired.

Can be twisted in some sense and repeated back to you over and over, manipulated and stretched into something. Often you have this urge to say more and say longer things, throw in 4 sentences, 6 sentences. You're hungry.

You know, you're not, you're not, you haven't worked out that day. You have, you have built up, built up tension. You don't go into the match if you're not prepared for it. So often you're just not ready. So you need all this reasoning that's logical and reasonable, but they don't do that. You need to make sure that when you are, it's the conversation happens on your schedule, not theirs.

And is there anything that somebody can do beforehand before entering into a planned discussion that may get—

they take those sentences and they string them apart and they'll pick out one word and flip it. And all of a sudden, they're the ones that look like the victim. That's the play, is they will flip that script to twist it and make it look like they're the victim, they're the ones under attack, when you know that's not the truth. Silence can never be misquoted.

And if you get heated, like for instance, if people who are dating get into some sort of argument, they're like, let's take some space, come back in an hour, 2 hours, whatever. Is there any kind of best practices for being able to make sure you're coming together in a healthy way?

What I try to tell people is use a frame around the conversation. You frame it, which is somewhat similar to others who talk about this, but it is calling your shot is what I say it like an old baseball player. You're pointing into left field going, that's where we're going. So right at the beginning of the conversation, say, I want you to know that before we talk about this, at the end of this conversation, that's key. At the end of this conversation, I still love you. I still care about you. I still want to be friends. I still want to do this. And then you go into, so here's what we want to talk about. So you make it very short and concise of what you are to talk about. But what you're doing is eliminating the unknowns. How often somebody in a conversation you have start to feel fear of like, if I say what I really want to say, am I going to lose this person? Well, you remove that barrier when you say, hey, I want to have a discussion with you about X, Y, and Z. But just know at the end of it, I'm still going to respect who you are. We're still going to choose to love each other. And it's like you're getting their permission and their acknowledgment. And now they know the parameters. Now they know the discussion. It's much harder when you go, hey, we need to talk. Talk about what? Anything. You know, how does it end? Who knows?

Yeah, that's— that just—

that all it does is bring anxiety of I have no idea where we're going. And so that's what you're leaving open pasture for you just to roam. That's what the conversation lasts forever because there's no fence. You just, you're just going wherever it goes. And then you realize, wow, where did this even start? How do we even get to this point? So if you, uh, come in from a, a frame, you're going to be much stronger because you're giving people less choices. Like, if you're gonna, I guess, as a kid, you know, pick out a pair of shoes, if you have like 30 shoes on the wall, you're gonna take a whole lot more time. But if I give you 2 Here's the two subjects we want to talk about. Well, that's much easier to digest, and then it makes conversations feel a lot more productive once you've chosen one, you know.

You probably know you probably don't want to be overly structured with some of these conversations, especially if it's like in a romantic setting, but do you think that there's benefit to having some sort of Do anything at all, we're going to stay neutral in the conversation.

When I say neutral, I'm meaning you are refraining from saying things that are hurtful because they will lay this trap expecting you, hoping that you will say something ugly, you will say something disrespectful, rude in some sense to put them down because—

time limit within that frame so that the other person makes sure that they're feeling heard too and they don't feel like the other person who maybe is setting the tone for the conversation is taking up a bunch of time to talk and then now an hour has gone by, somebody's got to go to work, somebody's got to take care of the kids, whatever the example is. Do you think there's an effective way to make sure that both people can hear each other out?

Yeah. I mean, one tactic is to say, okay, I'm going to let I'm giving you 5 minutes. Here's my phone. We're going to agree. You get 5 minutes to say whatever you want to say, and I'm not going to say a word. Whatever is on your mind about this, you get to say it all. And then I get 5 minutes. I get to say all that I want. And then at the end of it, that's the end of it. We're not going to bring it up again. You know, I mean, you, you get to lay those parameters as, as a couple, as a relationship, if that works for you or not. But what it does make sure is of is you get to say what you want and I'm not going to be defensive about it. We're both just gonna vent, pour it out, get it out, because often that's all you needed to do anyway is just to get it out.

How do you show up in conversation? Like, what are some things— what's your body language like when you're getting ready to sit down for an uncomfortable discussion with somebody?

Smile. That's my— because it makes me happier. It's not really so much for them, it's for me. I need— I, I want to feel like I am at all times positive, confident, and settled. So you have to think in your mind the values you want to portray. So there are things called conversational values that I'm a big proponent of. That is, every time you get into a conversation, what is the value? That's what they've been doing, right?

They've been throwing these, uh, arrows and value that you're wanting to stand by.

Like a company has their own values. They have their own brand that people know them by because that is the corporate message that they have sent out for their company.

Say no problem, but as soon as you do, oh, they act like, uh, woe is me and you're the worst person alive. And now you're trying—

what applies to you is in your human body. I apply my values, what I want to be. So one of my values—

trying to play the comparison game, and it's— you're gonna—

this is Where there is room for kindness, I will use it. Anytime, if there's space anywhere in that conversation for kindness, I will choose it, period. I don't care if they've been ugly to me. Is there space for kindness? That's what I'm going to do. Then it's not a question. I don't have to think about what I say. I know that my value drives my action. So another one that I have is if I can't be a bridge be a lighthouse. That's fine if they need to, if they need to go away from me, if we don't need to talk anymore, that's fine. But you know what, I'm still going to be, I'm still going to be light, I'm still going to be positive, I'm still going to be somebody who you know is here in case you need me. So these values of conversational values help you show up more as you, because these values align with who you are as, as a person. So you have to think Whatever I'm wanting to portray, it does not work unless it becomes you. Like, that's who I want to be in this conversation.

I know we talked earlier about like somebody who's portraying this false sense of confidence. They're, you know, overly charismatic. They're just talking loud, you know, for no reason, all these things.

Is there a way that the average person could be out of depth very quickly when you go into that who's more—

pick up if somebody's being fake to them and somebody's just not telling them the truth, other than let's just say that they're not overly charismatic. Is there like— I mean, there was that— there used to be that thing where if they looked to the right or the left or something wrong.

So often when you want to stay neutral in the conversation, that means you're going to be saying, noted, that's good to know, okay, I hear you.

They weren't telling the truth. I don't know if that's that's, that's a thing or not.

Like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, there's thought— there's ones of like, if you look a certain direction, that means like you're thinking, you're trying—

you're going to be using these little bitty phrases, meaning you're not going to continue to give conversation. You're not going to find information.

If you look another way, trying to hide it. I don't, I don't know how valid that is, but I know that typically you can tell if somebody is not being them, their authentic, authentic self is if you can just sense it in the little bitty details. So maybe it's the way their eye looks right after they say something. Maybe it's the way their inflection is. You know, if you ask somebody a question, they go, um, yeah, you know, like that makes it sound like you're not nearly as sure. Or maybe they laugh a certain way that they typically don't laugh, or something feels forced. It's often the cue. Now, this— that smile felt forced, that laugh, that word, that intonation in your voice felt forced. And if anytime it's forced, it means it's not natural, and that just feels out of place with people. One way often you can call out that kind of behavior— not really call it out, but inspect it a little closer is to ask somebody to repeat what they said. They usually will because they have to like, oh, I gotta re— okay, now I gotta get in the mindset again. Now I gotta rehearse it. I just gave it to you. Okay, now I've got to do it again. And then you're, you're making them, uh, realize that there's a stark contrast in their behavior. So that, that happens pretty frequently, especially in, in my world in litigation.

Do you think conflict can be settled at all through text messages or online messaging, or do you think—

put back and put a defense back and say, well, yeah, what if, but what about— that's going to—

with when it comes to friendships, professional relationships, romantic relationships, it's always going to be best to hop on the phone, video chat, in-person meeting.

Just make it worse with a narcissist. Instead, you want to be—

yeah, I mean, they can be If you and the person are mature and intelligent and neutral in that conversation, go, okay, noted.

Thank you for saying that. I understand. Anything that gives them—

no, give each other the benefit of the doubt and not make a, you know, mountain out of a molehill. But if you're not, or if you don't know each other that well, always much wiser to just pick up the phone, let them hear your voice, that makes a big difference.

I do it—

I mean, I do all the time. Text with my wife and, oof, I got a response that felt very cold. Anytime you get the K text, okay, oh well, okay, she— they're ready to destroy me, you know, my life is over, I just got a K or an MK, an MK. Like, there's all different ways that we go, "Oh, that doesn't sound good." It depends on the person. Like, my dad will just text "okay" to anything really you send him. I just know that's him. And I'll call him and he'll be like, "Oh, that's fantastic." But, you know, the text you got. So it just depends on the person. But yeah, you're never going to go wrong getting to hear their voice. And besides, a lot of times, hearing your voice can make somebody's day. We, we were— we are meant to hear and connect and speak as humans. It's not good for humans not to talk to other humans. I was always— there's that show, I forgot what it's called. It's like they go up, they send them to Alaska for like, say, spend 100 days alone in Alaska. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And for— and at first they love it. They're so excited. They build their shelter. They're like, oh yes, I just I just harvested this rabbit and I'm doing all this. But by like 20 days, they're like, I haven't spoken to anybody. I miss my friends. I miss hearing people's voices.

It's the loneliness to grab onto, nothing for them to carry on to in the conversation. So the more neutral you can be on just a monotone, nothing that's engaging in any way, nothing that's pressing back on them, that's going to be a source of strength.

Loneliness that gets them, it's not their capability. I was just found that, found that really interesting.

And number 3, I want you to understand where you need to go in your mind when you're communicating with a narcissist. There is this tendency that we—

let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff, okay? You're, you're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's A. And then inside that answer, kind of one of the big rules of the book is never win an argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney? So help me navigate those two things at once. Yeah.

Well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases, but right now I'm almost more of a leverage chip. In settlements. It's kind of this weird thing where jurors know me, and so judges and court staff know my content. And so being involved is also advantageous in certain ways, but slowly learning to develop and, um, be in this space like we were talking about. So it's, it's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? How— you're supposed to win every argument. You're an attorney? Oh, you must win a lot of arguments.

It's an absolute lie, and I'll tell you why.

You may get to choose your client. Do I sign this person up? Do I not sign this person up?

But you don't get to choose your facts.

You don't get to choose the law. You don't get to choose the evidence. And so what you have to do is it's really more about giving the facts a voice. You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened. And so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts, the evidence. Instead, what I have to do is advocate. And then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to say we win arguments, it's just not true.

A lot of the times the law have within us to make them want to understand our point of view. It's very easy to get into this push and pull of, oh my, what does it for us?

You just follow what the law says. You might be on the good side of it and the losing side of it, so to speak, but it's not a win-loss thing. What about with another human being?

Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win?

Gosh, they just, they're not listening to me. They only think about themselves. How can I get them? What can I say to click?

Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody, or is that you literally mean that? Don't try to win an argument.

I literally mean that. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this, and they just— I might have more precedent than the other person and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better, but you get into, especially in the courtroom, the ceiling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that— how to win every argument— it's is lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship. You're going to lose their respect. They're going to close themselves off from you. You're going to be less approachable. You're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.

Hmm.

What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out— his content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words, where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it.

So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss, on the light bulb, and make them think about what it's like on my side. Not going to happen.

And personally supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson. Or they're in the control position. Is there—

I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to happen. They can't.

A way to sort of— wrestle's the wrong word.

They can't do that.

All right, so stop trying. Stop digging that hole time and time again and expect—

but reestablish pecking order, or at least equality in a conversation. You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not. They're in charge. You're not. They're picking the restaurant. You're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I, I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize. Let's split the dynamic too.

Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder. Because this person has constructed their whole identity, most likely, to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're gonna do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not gonna push back.

'Cause they're looking for that threat.

We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted.

I got it.

No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving?

Oh, that's great.

I just went twice.

Oh, you know, Ed?

Ed's great. Yeah, you need to—

And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop. How many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication. The conversation typically say much less.

You've been in those meetings where getting them to fill it, it's just going to be an empty hole. Instead, I want you to get to a place.

The person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet.

And when that person speaks, in your mind, where you think to yourself, instead of, man, they never, they only think about themselves. Where you—

everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud, confidence is very quiet. You say that about leaders too.

This struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader.

You believe that's one of the traits— switch to say, it is time that I think about myself—

of a great communicator, of a leader, correct? Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove, they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart.

Confident people know that.

Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever's happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people.

Versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next?

What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor. Brother, so good.

You, by the way, you exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live. There's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on.

And my peace of mind and my source of strength and where I go to, where I draw my strength from, who I draw my strength from because there are friends and people in your life that want—

most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts and want to fill you, that want to give to you.

They, they want to be part of filling.

Then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, the fewer words they use, it's almost like someone watching on broadcasting.

So you're in conversation, you're saying something, you're on a roll. Maybe it's at a meeting, maybe it's a one-on-one face-to-face with someone, and You're saying something and someone cuts you off. They begin talking when it's not their turn. They interrupted you. What do you do? Here's some things I want you to try. Number 1, let them. That's right. You heard me right. You're gonna let them, and I'll explain the reasoning for that later. Let them interrupt you the first time. Number 2, if they interrupt you, give them your cup. Narcissists will only take, and they will continue a second time We're going to break that down. We're going to use their first name, and then we're going to use a power phrase. This is, "I can't hear you when you interrupt me." Hey, Jefferson, Greg, Sean, whatever it is, Ashley, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. And number 3, if you have to go a little bit stronger, they interrupt you and they just keep steamrolling into the conversation, we're going to talk about asserting a boundary to get them to stop interrupting, or if that's a conversation you need to end altogether. And there's something I want to be very clear about right out of the gate, and that is not all interruptions are made the same. They're not all equal. Some people and their personality, or maybe a disorder, they can't help but interrupt. That's just the way their brain is wired. They need to say what immediately comes to their brain, or else they're going to lose it, or something else happens. And they don't mean it intentionally. They don't do it on purpose. They don't mean to put you down and put themselves above. So understand that you need to take and they'll continue to pour out. So understand there are givers in relationships and takers in relationships, and it's the same way in a conversation. So go into that mindset of you're not going to get that apology from them to say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're— there are people that interrupt without even thinking about it, and they do not do it intentionally. It does not make them a bad person. Okay, now's the time I want to dive deeper into step number 1, and that is let them interrupt first. Now, it might surprise you and say, "Jervison, what are you talking about? That this is all about interruptions and how to stop them, and you're telling me to let them interrupt?" Yes, I am, and I'm going to tell you why. Too often when you're speaking and somebody cuts in, we have the tendency to get really defensive. We have the tendency to say things like, "Excuse me, I was still talking." Ever heard that? You ever said that? "Excuse me, I'm not finished." "Excuse me, I'm not done." What is your immediate reaction when you hear that? What does it sound like to you when somebody says something like that? Everybody goes, "Whoa, whoa, oh, okay, sorry. Didn't mean to offend you. You cut out way strong ahead." And it makes you look like you're insecure. It makes you look like you're controlling. It's not a good look. So often when you let somebody interrupt the first time, you are doing two things. One, you're giving them the grace to say, "You weren't going to listen to me anyway because all in your head, right? I was totally stubborn. I was totally ignorant. I was so unreasonable in this. I was disrespectful." Just thinking about what you just wanted to interrupt with. With. So I'm just going to let you get it out because you weren't going to listen to me anyway. So it's a strategy move. Second of all, it's priming you for step number 2. In other words, when they interrupt you again, because I guarantee you they will, you've now earned that right. Often when you come out too strong, you haven't earned that right yet because people are going, whoa, you really just think everything you say is going to be gold and I can't have a thought too? Wow. Okay, sorry about that. But when you've let them interrupt the second time, you've now earned that ability to say, "No, most likely never going to happen." So instead, understand that you don't need an apology. This is the time where I listened to you. Now it's my turn to speak and you listen to me. So often when you just let them, it gives you the high ground and gives them a position of, I already got to say what I wanted to say. I can't interrupt again. They don't really want to do that without exposing bad behavior. Also, a very important point to what we just said a minute ago: by allowing them to interrupt first, people who don't mean to do it intentionally, or those that can't help it, you are giving them the grace to say what they need to say right away. Instead of— to validate feelings. You don't need an apology to fill It'll feel like a bow has been tied on that conversation. You can finally lay it to rest. Now you just need to put down the shotgun, bottling it up, because if you come out right in front of it and say, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm not done. Wait, I'm not done," you're just putting a cap on a shaken Coke bottle. You're just waiting for them to explode, and they're not going to listen to your point. After they've said what they need to say and they've interrupted you and you've listened, once they're done, Don't address what they've said and keep on walking. All right, Ed. All right, go back to your original point right where you left off. Don't follow the rabbit trail. Go back exactly to where you left off. And if they interrupt again, now's where it gets fun. Now we go to step number 2, and the first thing you're going to do is use their name. Names are really important. Names catch people's attention. It reminds them of almost being called out when they were kids or in class or by a parent. They pay attention to it. Use somebody's name, they click. So we're going to respond to that second interruption by using their name. And let's assume it's me. You're going to say, Jefferson, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. Jefferson, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. Now, how you—

which videos of yours seem to relate most to your audience, to the algorithm, to the people that follow you.

Say it makes a big difference if you say it really tight, like, Jefferson, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. Okay, cool. That's not going to go nearly as well. Instead, we're going to take a big breath and say it slowly. Hey, Jefferson, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. You see how more confident that sounds? More— ones that are conflict-driven.

So if I'm dealing with a bad argument you're dealing with somebody who's narcissistic, you're dealing with somebody who—

control. That sounds— rarely will they interrupt you again because you're saying, 'I can't—

difficult personality.' Uh, the—

I can't hear you. Yeah, you interrupting me? You want me to listen to that? I can't hear it when you're interrupting me in this way. I need you to let me finish. So that's a great way to step out in front of it. Another way Is if they continue to talk and interrupt you again, is to use this phrase. I've used this pretty often, and that is, I want to listen to you, but you need to let me finish. I want to listen to you, but you need to let me finish. The trigger here is I'm telling them I want to listen to you.

Hard stuff, the ugly stuff, the difficult stuff, how to maneuver those types of things.

I want to hear what you have to say, but you need to let me finish first. It's an acknowledgment of I'm gonna go, then I am more than happy to hear what you have to say. And number 3, if they continue to interrupt despite what you're saying, and you're saying it with kindness and you're giving them all the room, it's time that you assert a boundary. Now, I do this often in the legal space.

As you can imagine, attorneys have a lot to say, and some attorneys tend to go, tend to hit more, but I'm hesitant to talk too much about—

these feel like what they have to say is more important than what others have to say. And so often they will interrupt in a call, in a hearing, in trial. It happens all the time. And so Often I will use the method of number 2. For example, last week, I'm not going to use this person's name, but I said, I can't hear you when you interrupt me. And that's the last time this individual interrupted. But I've also had it before where I needed to be a lot more assertive in it. For example, I've said things like, I need to make sure, am I on a one-way street or narcissism?

I'll do a video about that like every 5 weeks. A two-way street.

That's telling them right now.

You know, 5, 6 weeks or so. I just feel like it's too much of a—

Am I just listening to you talk? Are we going to have a conversation? Another thing you can use is, I need to understand, are we having a conversation or am I attending a lecture? You got to be careful about how you say certain things, but these are ways that you need to be a little bit more assertive sometimes and and stand up straight and say, hey, I'm not being listened to here. So one way I would encourage you, a very general way to assert a boundary, is if you continue to interrupt me, I need to end the conversation. Simple as that. If you continue to interrupt me, I need to end the conversation. I need to hang up the phone. I need to end the phone call. Don't be afraid to do that. But if it continues to be a problem, Eric, Don't let yourself be walked over. Don't be laid down on it. You assert a boundary and stick to it. Now, I also promised what to say when you're the one who needs to interrupt. We're going to talk about people who dominate conversations in another episode, but real quick, I want to give you some, some fast tools to use when you're the one who needs to—

might for some people, you know, it's just some people that they make it their whole page all about that. Like, we didn't even have this word, I feel, to interrupt someone.

It's gonna go best in the method that I recommend is you tell them that you're interrupting. That sounds like, "I know I'm interrupting," or, "I need to interrupt you." When you use the word "interrupt," it's you acknowledging out loud that you know it's what you're doing, and there's an expectation that you're going to interrupt, be very quick, and then let them continue talking. And the main reason I find it's permissible in these type of situations is you are clarifying—

like 2 years ago, it wasn't even— it wasn't even a real word, so I gotta—

you gotta be clarifying an objective fact, not something subjective like their perspective. You are clarifying something objective, maybe a date, a time, something that you have absolute evidence of. You just need to tweak what they said because what they said was false, and you need to correct that real quick. It also helps to use their name. Hey Jefferson, I need to I need to interrupt you. This happened on X date. All right. And then you let them continue on talking. That's the best way.

Too many people are real quick to just paint somebody as a narcissist just because they said something they don't—

to actually step in in front of it and use their name if you can. If they continue talking, use their name slowly. Jefferson. Jefferson. Satan-like. So I'm very, very cautious about using that word enough, and they will eventually stop the louder that you get. But when you use the phrase, I know I'm interrupting, or I need to interrupt you, people don't take it nearly as personally because you're acknowledging that's what you're doing. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.

Yeah, it becomes desensitized now for the people that actually are dealing with somebody who's like diagnosed narcissist, now their voice isn't heard as loud because, you know, it's been— the word's been so overexposed.

I don't think I've seen any DM from somebody who just said, you know, hey, I am going through something with a regular ex, a nice ex of mine. No, it's always a narcissistic ex. Every time it's whoever is not in my life anymore or who is anymore. It's, it's always a narcissist.

So I, I'm not going to say they haven't been diagnosed.

I'm just saying there is a sense of discernment you need to come into that conversation with. And for somebody who has a lot of followers and gives advice, that's just all the more responsibility to be very careful with your words.

And so for more difficult scenarios like the ones that you're talking about, harder conversations, people who are quote unquote difficult, is it the same playbook? Take the breath, practice the pause, it's the same thing?

Yeah, it's a lot of the same thing except you just, you know, when to walk away very quickly because their words can be much more harmful. Understanding that when you're dealing with somebody who's a narcissistic type, it is a game in a sense. They either want to provoke you or they want the praise from you, and there's a line that comes with that. So it's more of informing them when they're in those situations and giving them a sense of just because you walk away does not mean you're a bad person. Just because you need to step away from a conversation does not mean that you've lost. Often it's you've won. You've won your peace of mind. And what are you walking away from or what are you walking away with? And that's, that's, that's the difference.

Obviously in your line of work it can be easy to feel manipulated, feel like your reality can be warped, and that maybe your truth isn't your truth. You question whether or not what you're thinking is actually what's going on because of just the dynamics of a court case, or maybe what's what another lawyer might be saying to you or whatever. And I think this also happens a lot in these more difficult conversations where because of the words of somebody else and what they're saying to them, the person could have started out great, felt confident, felt, you know, like they had a level of self-respect, but now they're like, oh no, like maybe is this person right? Like, am I really doing those things? How do you maintain that balance to where you are able to understand whether or not that somebody's words to you are actually true and that you're not questioning your own reality in that situation?

Well, that touches on the elements of gaslighting, right? If somebody actually coming in and trying to take advantage of you by distorting your sense of reality and truth. What comes to mind is twofold really. You maintain that balance by understanding who you are and loving who you are. Often we want to look to other people for that validation of love because we have a hard time loving ourselves. And the more you are good with who you are, the more you're okay with, I'm okay if you misunderstand me. I'm okay. You know, if that's what you need to do, You go do it. I'll let you. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to take down anything else that I have. So there's that sense of loving who you are. The second end of that is to be firm. Often when I talk about it in terms of people who want to break up your self-esteem, who try to gaslight you in certain ways, it's somewhat like the laser pointer with a cat. Right? They, they want to jump you from place to place to place, even though you get there and there's no laser. It's, it's all just distraction. It's, it's manipulation. In that sense, you need to stand still and be still. One of the best ways to do that is to use phrases that I, I teach are, I remember things differently, I see that differently, I, I take another approach. You— it's often just using and repeating the same phrases. Repeating means that you're standing still because they might bring something up to you and you have that knee-jerk reaction and go, that's not what happened, that's not what I said, that's not true. Well, you're just jumping around to where they want you, and it's, it's not where that is. Versus if I just repeat what I said I see things differently. They want to distract you, you just repeat, "I see things differently." You're standing still. It's like the person who's not responding to that text. You're saying, "I got control over me and that's the only person who does." Do you think there's benefit to saying—

because one of the things I've used in the past is like, "It's okay. You have your truth, I have my truth. You have your perception of reality, I have my perception of reality. Neither are right or wrong, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this."