Naval Ravikant and Nick Kokonas — The Tim Ferriss Show

This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. I have been using Eight Sleep Pod Cover for years now. Why? Well, by simply adding it to your existing mattress on top like a fitted sheet, you can automatically cool down or warm up each side of your bed. 8Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the Pod, and I'm excited to test it out. Pod 4 Ultra. It cools, it heats, and now it elevates automatically. More on that in a second. First, Pod 4 Ultra can cool down each side of the bed as much as 20°F below room temperature, keeping you and your partner cool even in a heat wave. Or you can switch it up depending on which of you is heat sensitive. I am always more heat sensitive, pulling the sheets off, closing the windows, trying to crank the AC down. This solves all of that. Pod 4 Ultra also introduces an adjustable base that fits between your mattress and your bed frame and adds reading and sleeping positions for the best unwinding experience. And for those snore-heavy nights, the Pod can detect your snoring and automatically lift your head by a few degrees to improve airflow and stop you or your partner from snoring. Plus, with the Pod 4 Ultra, you can leave your wearables on the nightstand. You won't need them because these types of metrics are integrated into the Pod 4 Ultra itself. They have imperceptible sensors, which track your sleep time, sleep phases, and HRV. Their heart rate tracking is just one example, is at 99% accuracy. So get your best night's sleep. Head to eightsleep.com/tim and use code TIM to get $350 off of the Pod 4 Ultra. That's Eightsleep, all spelled out, eightsleep.com/tim and code TIM, T-I-M, to get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra. They currently ship to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia. This episode is brought to you by Momentous. Momentous offers high-quality supplements and products across a broad spectrum of categories, including sports performance, sleep, cognitive health, hormone support, and more. I've been testing their products for months now, and I have a few that I use constantly. One of the things I love about Momentous is that they offer many single-ingredient and third-party tested formulations. I'll come back to the latter part of that. A little bit later. Personally, I've been using Momentous Mag-3 and 8, L-theanine, and apigenin, all of which have helped me to improve the onset quality and duration of my sleep. Now, the Momentous Sleep Pack conveniently delivers single servings of all 3 of these ingredients. I've also been using Momentous Creatine, which doesn't just help for physical performance but also for cognitive performance. In fact, I've been taking it daily, typically before podcast recording, as There are various studies and reviews and meta-analyses pointing to improvements in short-term memory and performance under stress. So, those are some of the products that I've been using very consistently. And, to give you an idea, I'm packing right now for an international trip. I tend to be very minimalist and I'm taking these with me nonetheless. Now, back to the bigger picture. Olympians, Tour de France winners, Tour de France winners, the U.S. military, and more than 175 college and professional sports teams rely on Momentous and their products. Momentous also partners with some of the best the lines in human performance to bring world-class products to market, including a few you will recognize from this podcast, like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Kelly Starrett. They also work with Dr. Stacy Sims, who assists Momentous in developing products specifically for women. Their products contain high-quality ingredients that are third-party tested, which in this case means Informed Sport and/or NSF certified, so you can trust that what is on the label is in the bottle and nothing else. And trust me, as someone who knows the sports nutrition and supplement world very well, that is a differentiator that want in anything that you consume in this entire sector. So good news. For my non-US listeners, more good news, not to worry. Momentous ships internationally, so you have the same access that I do. So check it out. Visit livemomentous.com/tim and use code TIM at checkout for 20% off. That's livemomentous, L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com/tim and code TIM for 20% off. Optimal minimalism. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

Now would seem the perfect time.

What if I did the opposite?

I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

The Tim Ferriss Show.

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to sit down with world-class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two-for-one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and passed 1 billion downloads. To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes. And internally, we've been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars. These are people who have transformed my life, and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one. We went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at tim.blog/combo. And now without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening.

First up, Naval Ravikant, @Naval on AirChat and Twitter, co-founder of AirChat and AngelList and host of the Naval Podcast. I have a couple of core foundational values, and they're not things that I explicitly developed. They're just sort of, you can look back after the fact and say, oh yeah, I won't compromise on those things. But now I realize how important honesty is. And I learned that from a couple of different places. One is when I grew up, I wanted to be a physicist and I idolized Richard Feynman. I read everything by him, technical and non-technical that I get my hands on. And he said, you must never, ever fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. The physics grounding is very important because physics, you have to speak truth. You don't compromise, you don't negotiate with people, you don't try and make them feel better because if your equation is wrong, it just won't work whatever you're doing. So I think the science background is important in that. A second is growing up in New York. I grew up around some really rough and tumble kids, some of who were actually in the Russian mob. And I once had an encounter where I watched one of them threaten to kill the other, and the would-be victim went and hid. And then finally he let the aggressor into his house after the aggressor promised him, no, I'm not I'm not going to kill you. Honesty was such a strong virtue between them that even when they were ready to kill each other, they would take each other's word for things. It sort of went above everything. And even though it was honesty in a mob context, I realized how important that is in relationships. And then as I get older in life, I realized that a lot of happiness is just being present. And whether you get this out of Buddhism or cognitive therapy or drugs or wherever, you realize that to live in the present moment is the highest calling. It's the source of all happiness.. And when you're not honest with somebody else, or when you even withhold something in your mind, what you've done is you've created a second thought process. You've created a second thread in your head that then has to stay active, keeping track of what you've said versus what you're really thinking. And that takes you out of the moment and it brings you unhappiness over time. You will not realize it at that moment itself, but it will create stress and distraction. So if you really want to be happy, you have to be present. And one of the core tenets of being present is to be completely honest at all times.

There is a great short book that had a huge impact on me on this topic called Lying by Sam Harris, which was just phenomenal because it explored the impact not just of lying in the way that most people think of it, but generalized deceit or even white lies that are intended to protect people. What are the things that you look for in founders or the red flags that disqualify an investment or a founder?

So number one, intelligence. You got to be smart, which means you have to know what you're doing to some level. And that's a fuzzy thing, but you talk to people and you kind of get a sense of do they know what they're doing or not? Do they have insights? Do they have specific knowledge? Have they thought about this problem deeply? It's not about the age. It's not how many years they've spent, but just how deep is their understanding of what they're about to do. So intelligence is key. Energy, because being a founder is brutally difficult. It takes a long time. And in the long run, the people who succeed are just the ones who persevere. So if someone runs out of energy, or if they're doing this in some hesitating preliminary way where they're looking for constant positive feedback, or if they're easily thrown off course, then they're not going to make it to the end, especially in the highly competitive startup context. And then finally is integrity. Because if you have someone who's high intelligence and high energy, but they're low integrity, what you've got is a hardworking, smart crook. And especially in the startup world, things are very dynamic. They're very fast moving. People are very independent. So if somebody wants to screw you over, they will find a way to do it. And fundamentally, ethics and integrity are what you do despite the money. If being ethical was profitable, everybody would do it. So what you're looking for is a core sense of values that rises above and beyond the pure financial incentives. So for example, if I'm talking to a founder and they offer to do something that is slightly unfair to another shareholder or employee or founder in exchange for making me happy, that's a red flag. Because if they can do it to them, they can do it to me. And integrity is the hardest one to figure out because it requires longitudinal relationships. Meaning long term. Exactly. So I've just become more hyper aware of that piece as time goes on. But those are kind of the 3 things that I look for. And then A thing that isn't really about success, but is more just about personal time is when you invest in somebody or you work with somebody, you start a company with somebody, you're signing up to spend the next decade of your life having them in your life. And so you just have to make sure you actually genuinely like these people. You don't consider work to have to answer a phone call or take a meeting or spend time with them. If it's exhausting, if they're downers, if they're negative, if they're difficult, no amount of money is worth it. You and I will both die with money in the bank. It's not about money at this point. It's about, do I want to spend my scarce time, resources, mental energy, spirit interacting with these people? My favorite founders are actually the ones who I learned from. So every time they call me up because they need help with something, I jump on it because I know that walking around the block with them for an hour, I'm going to walk out much smarter.

What books or people outside of the startup world have most improved your ability to invest? Maybe broadly speaking, just resource allocate.

That's a really good question. It's a, this is a very deep question. It's going to have lots of answers, but at the end of the day, I think you have to work on your internal state until you are free of as many biases and conditioned responses as you can be, and it will improve every aspect of your life, including investing. And I am a bookworm, so I read an enormous amount. I was raised essentially in a library as a daycare center. And so I've just read so much that I don't even know where to start. But if you work on your internal state, one of the things you start realizing is as an investor, emotions dominate. Investors are very emotional, even though we act or we pretend to be very rational. For example, you'll decide in the first 5 minutes of a meeting, usually whether you want to invest in the company or not. And if a company doesn't take your money in the first round, you get annoyed with them or you feel like they crossed you. Then you have to undo that emotional state. So when the second round comes along, you can still be a positive force and continue helping the company and maybe have a bite at the apple a second time. And these kinds of skills are extremely hard to build. They're not things you're going to build by reading one book and then you're like, aha. So I don't believe in the epiphany theory of self-development where you read some book, you have an incredible epiphany, you read one phrase, you're like, okay, that's great. This changes my life, and then you scroll it down a piece of paper and you keep looking at it, or you put it as a backdrop to your computer screen. Life doesn't work that way. What you kind of have to do is you have to build skills. And I think happiness is a skill. Nutrition is a skill. Diet is a skill. Investing is a skill. Self-awareness is a skill. And skills get built up over decades with feedback loops and just have to constantly keep working at it, on it. So the books that have helped me a lot, I think there's a class of books that I would kind of put in the stoicism category. And I know you've been a big advocate of these in the past, and I sort of discovered them independently, but they were very influential. So Seneca and Marcus Aurelius both stand out. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius was absolutely life-changing for me because it's the personal diary of the Emperor of Rome. And here's a guy who was probably the most powerful human being on Earth at the time that he lived, and he was writing his own diary to himself, not expecting it to be published.. And when you open this book, you realize he had all the same issues and all the same mental struggles, and he was trying to be a better person. And so right there you figure out, okay, success and power don't improve your internal state. You still have to work on that. And so that class of books is very influential. I like to pay attention to what I consider the rational Buddhists, because a lot of Buddhism is drowned in mysticism and Hinduism and sort of worship this guru or do this ritual. I don't pay attention to that. But I pay a lot of attention to what I consider rational Buddhists, where they can make the case very intelligently with reasoning along the way as to how you should train your mind to work or how you should observe your mind. Sam Harris, who you mentioned earlier, is great. Jiddu Krishnamurti, who's a lesser well-known guy, but an Indian philosopher who lived turn of the last century, is extremely influential to me. He's an uncompromising, very direct person who basically tells you to look at your own mind at all times. And so I have been hugely influenced by him. Probably the best book of his that I like is one called The Book of Life, which is sort of excerpts from his various speeches and books that are stitched together. Oddly enough, Bruce Lee wrote some great philosophy, and Striking Thoughts is a book that is a good summary of some of his philosophy. But I could go on and on and on. I mean, there are— you have to read hundreds of these things, literally. Blogs. The blogs are, I feel, an underappreciated resource. We're now in a day and age of Twitter and Facebook. We're getting sort of bite-sized pithy wisdom that's really hard to absorb. And books are very difficult to read as a modern person because we've been trained. We've got two contradictory pieces of training. One is our attention span has gone through the floor because we're hit with so much information all the time that we want to skip, summarize, skip. We want to get to the TL;DR, cut to the chase, too long, didn't read. What's the 140-character version? What's the Instagram version. On the other hand, we're also taught from a young age that books are something you finish. Books are something that are sacred, that you treat books as a— when you go to school and you're assigned to read a book, you have to finish the book. So we forget how to read books, or we get in this contradiction where everyone I know is stuck on some book. Everyone is stuck on some books. I'm sure you're stuck on some book right now. It's like page 332. You can't go on any further, but you know you should finish the book. So what do you do? You give up reading books for a while, your Kindle or your iPad or whatever you use, or even your paper book. Is in a stuck state. That for me was a tragedy because I grew up on books and then I switched to blogs and then I switched to Twitter and Facebook. And then I realized I wasn't actually learning anything. I was just taking in little dopamine snacks all day long. I was getting my little 140-character burst of dopamine and then I'd retweet and then I'd see who retweeted my tweet. Then I get into an argument on Twitter and it's a fun, wonderful thing, but it's a game that I was playing.

I wasn't actually learning anything. Usually with Startup L. Jackson is—

Yeah, Startup L. Jackson, great character on Twitter. So I realized like I have to go back to reading books because when you're talking about solving old problems, the older the problem, the older the solution. So if you're trying to learn how to drive a car or fly a plane, absolutely you should read something written in the modern age because this problem was created in the modern age. The solution is created in the modern age. But if you're talking about an old problem, like how to generally keep your body healthy, how to stay calm and peaceful of mind, What kinds of value systems are good? How should you raise a family? These kinds of things, the older solutions are probably better and they withstood the test of time. Any book that survived for 2,000 years has been filtered through a lot of people. Now, it may have some stuff in it that we now know to be true, but the general principles are more likely to be correct. So if I want to learn the theory of evolution, which I kind of use as my binding principle whenever I'm trying to explain any human action, people read all kinds of blog posts and tweets on evolution. Everyone has a loose understanding of how evolution works. But how many have actually read The Origin of Species? I mean, you can get it for $5 on Kindle, and it's a very easy read. It's not a difficult read. And you can read the actual source, and you can see the source of the brilliance, and you can see how Darwin came up with stuff back then that we're still trying to figure out, or statements he made that we're still trying to prove out. But there's very little that's incorrect in that book, and it is a source book. So I wanted to get back into reading these source books, and I knew it was a very hard problem because my brain had now been trained to spend time on Facebook and Twitter and, and these other bite-sized pieces. So what I did was I came up with this hack where I started treating books as throwaway blog posts or as bite-sized tweets or Facebook posts, and I felt no obligation to finish any book. So now anytime someone mentions a book to me, I buy it. At any given time, I'm reading somewhere between 10 and 20 books. I'm flipping through them. If the book is getting a little boring, I'll skip ahead. Sometimes I'll start reading a book in the middle because some paragraph caught my eye and I'll just continue from there. And I feel no obligation whatsoever to finish the book. If at some point I decide the book is boring, or if it's got pieces of it that are incorrect, so now I can't trust the rest of the information in there, I just delete it and I don't remember them at all. So I treat books now as other people might treat throwaway light pieces of information on the web. And all of a sudden, books are back into my reading library. And that's great because there's a lot of ancient wisdom in there.

When you think of the word, say, successful, who's the first person or people who come to mind? For you?

Yeah, it's an odd answer because, you know, most people think of someone as successful when they win the game and it's whatever game they're playing, right? So if you are an athlete, you're going to think of successful someone who is a top athlete and wins that game. Or if you're in business, then you got to think Elon Musk or, you know, someone of that sort. Or in my mind, I would have answered that question a little differently a few years ago. I would have said Steve Jobs because created something, or he was a driving force, part of the driving force and the spearhead for creating something that has changed the lives for all of humanity. And that's the iPhone. I think of Marc Andreessen as super successful, not because of his recent incarnation as a venture capitalist, which is an interesting one, but because of the incredible work that he did with Netscape. He commercialized the web browser. Satoshi Nakamoto is successful in the sense that he created Bitcoin, which is this incredible technological creation. That will have repercussions for decades to come. So in the classic sense, I consider those creators and commercializers successful. And of course, Elon Musk, just because he changed everyone's viewpoint on what is possible with modern technology entrepreneurship. But that said, to me, the real winners are the ones who step out of the game entirely, who don't even play the game, who rise above it. And those are the people who have such internal mental and self-control and self-awareness that they need nothing from anybody else. So there are a couple of these characters that I know in my life, some older gentlemen that I like to kind of learn from. And we mentioned our Polish friend earlier. I would consider him successful because he doesn't need anything from anybody. He's at peace, he's at health, and whether he makes more money or less money or whether the next person over from him does better or worse than him has no effect on his mental state and bearing. And historically, I would say that the legendary Buddha, or Krishnamurti, whose stuff that I like reading, they are successful, quote unquote, in the sense that they step out of the game entirely. Winning or losing does not matter to them. There's some line that I read somewhere that all of man's troubles arise because he cannot sit in a room quietly by himself for half an hour. And if you could literally just sit, if you could just sit for 30 minutes and be happy, you are successful. And I think that that is a very powerful place to be, but very few of us get there.

Do you have a current meditative practice?

I have a couple. Like most people, I talk about doing it but don't really do it all that well. I think meditation is like dieting, or where everyone is supposed to be following a regimen. Everyone says they do it, but nobody actually does it. The real set of people who meditate on a regular basis, I found, are pretty rare. And I've identified and tried at least 4 different forms of meditation. The one that I found that works the best for me is something called choiceless awareness or nonjudgmental awareness, where you essentially don't sit in the corner and don't stay quiet. You walk around, you're going about your daily business, but hopefully there's some nature around. You're not talking to somebody else. And what you practice is you just learn to accept that moment that you're in without making judgments. You don't say, oh, there's a homeless guy over there, I better cross the street. You don't look at two people running by and say, oh, he's out of shape, or I'm in better shape than him, or that person's better than me, or this one's better, or I should get a coffee or whatever. You just don't make any decisions. You don't judge anything. You just accept everything. If you do that, I find if I can do that even for 10 or 15 minutes walking around, I end up in a very peaceful, grateful state.

And so that one works well for me. When those thoughts come up, right? When you see the guy with the bad hairdo and you're like, that guy has no business having that unmanageable hairdo, or whatever ridiculous thought comes to mind, what is the internal response to that?

What I do is, for those of you who programmed, I'm basically trying to run my brain in debugger mode. I'm trying to be very, very alert and watch my thoughts. You're not trying to judge anything, including your own thoughts. You know, there's a great definition that I read that says enlightenment is a space between your thoughts. Which means that enlightenment isn't this thing you achieve after 30 years sitting in a corner on a mountaintop. It's something you can achieve moment to moment, and you can be certain percentage enlightened every single day. So you want to create as much space between your thoughts as possible. And the way you do that is by being aware of what your thoughts are and why you're having them. So if I saw the guy with a bad hairdo, a toupee, I would look at that and I would, at first I'd be like, haha, he has a bad hairdo. And then I'd say, well, why am I laughing at him? Oh, to make me feel better about myself. And why am I trying to make me feel better about my own hairdo? Oh, because I'm losing my hair. And I'm afraid it's going to go away. And what I find is that 90% of thoughts that I have are fear. 90% are fear-based. The other 10% are probably desire-based.

And as any— it's a very tactful way to put it. Yeah.

And as any Buddhist will tell you, that desire is just fear by another name.

It's the other coin.

Oh, I thought you were talking about something else entirely. Yeah.

There's this—

yeah, there's this cartoon. I don't know if you know who Harry Crumb is. He has all of these very sort of profane comic strips and was very famous, and there's a great documentary about him as well. Wait, Harry Crumb, I think that's actually a comedy, but R. Crumb, maybe I'm mixing it up. In any case, somebody can correct me in the comments, but there's this one cartoon of his, I think it's a single cell, kind of like The Far Side in its format. It's basically a drawing of people on the street in Manhattan, and every man has a thought bubble above his head with a vagina in it, and every woman has a thought bubble above her head with a penis in it.

There's everybody walking. That's why the Adam and Eve story is there, right? Original sin is lust. It's the thing that makes you fall out of heaven the same way. Maybe some of your readers have read this book called Siddhartha, but it's a beautiful parallel story to the making of the Buddha by Hermann Hesse. It's a great book. I highly recommend it. But even in that book, our protagonist is out there seeking enlightenment and gets really close. And the thing that drops him out of it is lust. He meets a woman that he falls— he feels lustful towards, and that sort of slowly becomes his undoing into everything. But anyway, so to answer your original question, when I'm doing the choiceless awareness form of meditation, which by the way, isn't, as far as I can tell, is not taught in any school. It's something that I discovered mostly by reading enough of Krishnamurti's book and piecing together what he meant. 'Cause he's a very, he's not a very clear speaker at times, or he is clear, but in a very different kind of way. And then I realized that, okay, so the point of meditation is to clear your mind. And the way to clear your mind is, yes, you can sit in the corner and struggle with it, which doesn't really get you the outcome. Or you can do transcendental meditation, which is where you're using this chanting to create a white noise in your head to bury your thoughts. Or you can just very keenly and very alertly be aware of your thoughts as they happen. And as you watch them, you realize how many of them are just fear-based. And the moment you recognize it as fear, without even trying, it sort of goes away. And then after a while, your mind quietens. And when your mind quietens, you stop taking everything around you for granted. You start noticing the details of, oh my God, I live in such a beautiful place. It's so great that I have clothes on me. Yeah, I can go into a Starbucks and get a coffee anytime I want. How rich am I? Look at these people. They're, you know, each one has a perfectly valid and complete life of their own in their own heads that's going on. It pops us out of the story, the dream that we're always in, the story that we're constantly telling ourselves. And if you stop talking to yourself for even 10 minutes, or if you stop obsessing over your own story for even 10 minutes, you'll realize that we are really far up Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And that life is pretty good.

What is a bad habit that you're working to overcome right now?

So this is something that I learned through our Polish trainer friend Victor.

Hi guys, just a quick note from present-day Tim. The Polish friend and trainer in question is Jerzy Gregorek, and you can hear my conversation with Jerzy titled The Lion of Olympic Weightlifting: 62-Year-Old Jerzy Gregorek, which also features Naval. Naval and I were working with him at the time. We both co-interview him. I still work with Jersey and I just saw him just a few weeks ago. So to learn more about this amazing man, go to tim.blog/jersey, J-E-R-Z-Y, to listen to that conversation one more time.

tim.blog/jersey, J-E-R-Z-Y.

At the age of whatever he is now, 67, he can still do things that most 20-somethings cannot do. Now back to the episode with Naval.

Habits are everything. Everything. I think that we are trained in habits from when we were children, including potty training and when to cry and when not to and how to smile and when not to. And all of these things become habits. These are all behaviors that we learn and that we then integrate into ourselves. And then what ends up happening when we're older is that we're a collection of thousands, maybe tens of thousands of habits that are constantly running. Subconsciously and they're internalized. And then we have a little bit of extra brain power in our neocortex for solving new problems. And so you become your habits. And what really brought this to light for me is our friend, our trainer, gave me a routine to do every single day. And before that, I had never worked out every single day. And it's a light workout. It's not tough on your body. But I did this workout every single day, and I realized just the incredible, astonishing transformation that it had upon me, both physically and mentally, because I I think to have peace of mind, you have to have peace of body first. So that taught me the power of habits. And after that, I started realizing that it's all about habits. So at any given time now, within a 6-month period, I'm either trying to pick up a good habit or I'm discarding a previously bad habit. And it takes time. So, for example, if someone says, I want to be fit, I want to be healthy, but right now I'm out of shape and I'm fat, well, nothing is going to work for you in 3 months that's going to be sustainable. It's going to be a 10-year journey. At least. And in the 10-year journey, what you're going to do is every 6 months or every 3 months, depending on how fast you can do it, you're going to break bad habits and you're going to replace them or you're going to pick up good habits. So I think it is all about habits. There is nothing else. Examples of habits I've picked up in the last 12 months or I'm still working on. I'm one of these people who wants everything, right? So I don't want to give up anything. So for example, if I want to stop eating bad foods, if I want to lose weight by fixing my diet, I don't say these foods are bad, I'm not going to eat them, and then suffer and then feel like I'm not eating tasty food. Instead, what I do is I do some combination of changing my taste buds to actually like the foods that are healthier for me and substituting unhealthy tasty foods with healthy tasty foods so that I can sustain it forever. I'm not interested in anything that is unsustainable or even hard to sustain. I want my life to be effortless. So once I've created a good habit, it has to be the kind of habit that I can sustain with no effort.

You're about to graduate. If you had to go back and give that Naval advice, you're already hooked on reading, so that seems to be covered.

What advice would you give yourself? Yeah, it's funny. I actually did this exercise recently where I sat down and I didn't write it because it was in my head, but I did spend some time thinking about what is the advice I would give my 30-year-old self. And the advice was along the lines of chill out, don't stress so much, not so much anxiety, everything will be fine, and be more yourself. Don't try and do what you think society wants or needs. Don't try and live up to other people's expectations. Self-actualize. Say no to more things. Protect your time because it's very precious. On your dying day, you will give everything, everything you have for another day. So the discount rate, the marginal value of that extra day just goes up as you get older. So the advice was all along those lines. It was basically be yourself. Don't listen to other people. Don't worry about what other people need or want or think or expect from you. And then I said, well, what would my 30-year-old self have said to my 20-year-old self? And it turned out to be pretty much the exact same thing. And what would my 20-year-old self have said to my 10-year-old self? Pretty much the exact same thing. So I think my 50-year-old self is going to say, chill out, relax, don't stress so much, live in the moment. It'll all be all right. Less fear, more love, and love people more. Love is one of those weird things. Like, everyone wants to be loved. Everyone deeply needs to be loved. It's not something you can buy. No amount of money or power will bring you true unconditional love. But it turns out you can give love. It's free to give. So you can't necessarily get it. But if you can get in the mindset of, well, I'm just going to give it, eventually, on a long enough timescale, you get what you deserve. The universe kind of sends it back your way.

Yeah, well, not only that, it's like, if you don't know how to make yourself happy, try to make someone else happy. And that is sort of a, as you said, kind of a recursive function. And now I'm getting, I'm using vocab I shouldn't, but it's a virtuous cycle.

Charlie Munger, who's Warren Buffett's partner at Berkshire Hathaway and just a brilliant older gentleman. His speeches are collected in Poor Charlie's Almanac and they're worth reading. But he was asked at one of the Berkshire Hathaway annual meetings, someone basically asked him on the lines of like, you know, how do I find a worthy mate? And he said, be worthy of a worthy mate. And I think that's absolutely right. You just work on yourself until you no longer need them, and then they appear. I think that's what it is. A Zen saying that says, when the student is ready, the master appears. What that basically means is you have to work on yourself and be ready, and then good things will happen to you.

If you could have one billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say?

Where would you put it? I don't know if I have messages to send to the world, but there are messages that I like to send to myself at all times. One message that really stuck with me when I figured this out was that what is desire? And desire is a contract you make with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. I don't think most of us realize that's what it is. I think we go about desiring things all day long and then wondering why we're unhappy. So I like to stay aware of that because then I can choose my desires very carefully. I try not to have more than one big desire in my life at any given time. And I also recognize that as the axis of my suffering, I realize that that's where I've chosen to be unhappy. So I think that is an important one. Or even a simpler one is a lot of meditative, like you said, you did a Transcendental Meditation course. They give you a mantra. The mantra is supposed to have actually no meaning. Maybe the universal mantra that's been derived through the ages is Om, where you kind of just sit there and say Om in your mind to yourself. It's strange. You can say it to yourself. All day long in your mind, it'll make you happier, more peaceful. You start chanting it out loud, they'll lock you up. But Om has no meaning, I think. But to me, it has a meaning. And the meaning is just accept. Just accept. In any situation in life, you only have 3 options. You always have 3 options. You can change it, you can accept it, or you can leave it. Those are your 3 options. What is not a good option is to sit around wishing you would change it, but not changing it, wishing you would leave it, but not leaving it. And not accepting it. So it's that struggle, that aversion that is responsible for most of our misery. So probably the phrase that I use the most to myself in my head is I just tell myself one word, accept. So anytime I look at myself and I'm judging something, I just say accept. And it's only very, very, very few things that I will choose not to accept. And if I don't accept something, it's for one of two reasons. Either I'm aware that this is something that it's just so important to me right now that I can't accept it. Now I'm going to put up with a mental battle for it, or more likely I've just lost control of my thoughts. I'm no longer present. I'm dreaming. I'm in a highly emotional state.

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And now, Nick Kokonas. Instagram @nkokonas. Twitter @NickKokonas. Nick is the co-owner and co-founder of the Alinea Group of restaurants, which includes Alinea, one of only 13 restaurants in the US to earn the coveted Michelin 3-star rating.

Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks, Tim. Awesome to be here finally. Yeah.

Yeah. We have the benefit of having spent some time together and I've been fed a lot of caffeine by you and you're also of great help with The 4-Hour Chef. So I wanted to right off the bat, thank you for that.

It was kind of a fun thing. Cause I remember when you, you sent me like a preview of the book and then you called me to say like, hey, you know, Do you want to say anything about it? And I was like on a chairlift and I was like, by the time I get off this chairlift, I will have a blurb for you.

Uh, which was such pressure, which meant a lot. And pressure, I think, is the word to describe so much about you and your life. I want to say trajectory, but I'm not even sure that is the right word. And I thought a fun way to kick off the conversation would be to share with people listening some of the back and forth that we had when we were brainstorming what a podcast might look like, because certainly I don't think of you first and foremost as a food guy per se. And we were having this exchange via text and then via email, and I thought I'd just read one of your responses as we were swapping different ideas. I'll probably edit for space a little bit here, but not by much. And here we go. I'm a huge believer in radical transparency in business. I give numbers and burn bridges with big companies because I think that a lot of times people don't ask the basic questions. In publishing, for instance, how much did that book cost to print? How many did it sell? Oddly, those numbers are very hard to come by. I dug for months, years ago to do the Alinea book the right way. For bars, why does a bartender wash dishes and talk to customers? We've redesigned the bar experience and won best bar in the world. For restaurants, why is it the only form of entertainment that has only a mutual promise to show up? And then it goes into behavioral economics. And in parentheses, I don't even know how to pronounce this last name correctly, Richard Thaler, or is it Taylor? Yeah, Thaler. Thaler is a friend and investor, just won the Nobel Prize. Investing, been beating the market for nearly 30 years. Everything in all caps is about asymmetric risk-taking and information, and yet people's perception of risk or of what I do is that it's risky. It is not. And in a separate exchange, when we were talking about many of the topics that you could talk about outside of, say, restaurants, bars, and so on, even though that's been a big part of your life in recent history, many of these different experiments, explorations, portions of your career, topics that you could talk about, and then going into what you said, they come down to a single thought really, Wherever there is opaque information that should be obvious, run to that gap. So I struggle with where to even begin with the 20, the 20 options that we have here. But maybe you could explain to me how behavioral economics and Richard Thaler fit into this, just for curiosity's sake.

I'll go back to the word you used, options, because I started out back in 1992 or 3 studying options trading, derivatives trading. And I think there's a huge misconception about what that is because of movies, because of The Big Short, because of, you know, Wall Street, all of that. It's a bit like playing a game of chess for a living or being the house at a casino, that sort of thing. It's about taking, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of decisions per day and pretending it's like a big decision tree. And any given decision is, you know, if you're really good, 48% chance of being wrong. So you have to be really, really good at constantly being comfortable being wrong, but knowing that your overall number of decisions, that you're going to be right more than you're wrong. I know there's like a big theme, a lot of the folks that you have on, like they talk about success or failure or how to measure those things. And I kind of don't look at it as success or failure with anything. I look at it as just like, is my pattern of decisions correct? And then getting back to your actual question with Professor Thaler and behavioral economics, and I mean, essentially what they're looking at is decision-making. What drives people to make certain decisions? What's rational about those decisions? What is mostly irrational or emotional, or what decisions do we make that people don't even realize they're making a decision, which is often the case as well. And then if you think about it, every single form of what we do— art, commerce, science, you know, picking a mate— like all those things comes down to a whole bunch of decisions that you make without often really thinking about the decision itself. Not that you can go around walking around going, wow, I've just made another decision. But when you are doing you know, business or starting a company or publishing a book or whatever it may be, you can be intentional about that and realize that it's going to be an iterative process. And so I think that's been not only the case for me in learning how to filter things through that mindset, but like when you said there isn't really a trajectory, I kind of look at everything I've done as the same in a way, even though other people look at it and go like, wow, you went from being a derivatives trader to owning restaurants. Like, that's weird. And I studied philosophy in college, so like, people are like, how do you go from philosophy to finance? You know?

And to me, it was all the same thing. That particular transition, or rather progression, I suppose, from philosophy to finance is one that you and I haven't really talked about. That one is interesting. I'd love to explore for a second, and we're going to go into a million different nooks and crannies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you feel like philosophy was— studying philosophy undergrad was an asset that then later helped you, or was it just an interest you explored en route to other things?

I can't remotely imagine having not done that. And the way that actually I did it was really interesting. I had no intention of— when I got to college, I thought I'd study political science, economics, pre-law kind of thing, something like that. And my very, like, second week at Colgate University, a wonderful professor who just passed away last year at 94 years old, really great mentor to me. Professor Jerome Belmoth was a tenured professor at Colgate for almost 60 years. Pulled me aside, introduction to logic, you know, 101, and basically said, what are you studying here? I told him, and he said, nope, you're going to be a philosophy major. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to teach you how to think. There's this great scene in A River Runs Through It where the dad, you know, every time the kid writes, an essay, like the young fisherman kid writes an essay and he brings it to his father to be graded. He gives it back to him and says, half as long again. Long before that movie ever came out, Professor Belmoth would essentially assign a paper to the class and say it should be about 15 pages. And people would be like, well, how long? And he'd always say like, you know, how long is a piece of string? Like, it's however long it needs to be. And then he would tell me, yours can't be longer than 3 pages. And people would be like jealous, like, wow, you only have to write 3 pages. If you take it seriously, that is a much, much harder thing to do. So he really trained me as well as a number of other professors there to be clear in thinking, succinct, to understand what logic was, to process information, and really to look for parallels in different fields and different fields of thought. And so, man, like when I got out of school, I went to law school for like a day and a half. I'd gotten into Penn, like a joint JD-PhD program at Penn. And as soon as I kind of knew who the other folks were and what their desires and trajectories were, I was like, oh, this isn't actually a good fit for me. And I remember my future father-in-law told my now wife, then girlfriend, that I was in danger of becoming an intellectual bum because I dropped out of law school before I really entered law school. And, you know, I floundered around for a little while, but, you know, if you grew up in Chicago, you end up meeting people. Who had this unusual lifestyle. And that was back in the days, pre-internet, pre-electronic trading, pre-high-frequency trading, where there was literally people on a giant trading floor shouting at each other. And you either were attracted to the, I don't know, almost animalistic nature of that. And for me, it was like a huge challenge because there are people down there that had, you know, PhDs from MIT, and then there was people who were like, you know, butchers that went down there with $100,000 and just kicked ass. And so it wasn't about your level of education or any of the stuff I already talked about. It was about can you show up every day and every day is game day and be really disciplined and very clear-headed with chaos around you.

How did you get introduced to that world?

You know, if you grew up in Chicago, you know some of these guys and some of them are flashy. And I can remember the exact moment. I'm not going to name a name here, as you'll find out why in a second. But I was walking down the street I was like, you know, 6 months out of college, kind of didn't know what I was going to do. And I was walking down the street and I bumped into a guy I knew in high school. And, you know, he wasn't the best student. He didn't try the hardest. And I was like, hey, what are you doing now? And he was like, well, I'm just rehabbing these homes. And I thought literally like, oh, he's a construction worker. And I was like, you know, what are you doing with them? He's like, well, I just bought this block and I'm turning this all over. This is a true story. I mean, this is so not like, you know, a good reason to do something. But I looked at him and I was like, what are you talking about? And he is like, yeah, I skipped college and I started out as a runner on the floor of the Merc and now I, you know, I own like 25 condos and 3 townhomes and I trade. And I kind of went like, wow, I don't know what— I knew a little bit about it. I'd been down on the floor before just visiting, but I was kind of like, I was like, that's fascinating. Like, that is truly fascinating thing. And, you know, I went down, visited the floor. I had to fake my resume in the wrong direction to get a job. True story. Like, people lie on their resume all the time. I'm probably the only person that got rid of my degree and my academic awards and all that because to get a clerk job on the floor, the last thing they wanted was someone with a good degree, Phi Beta Kappa, you know, magna cum laude, all that stuff. So I faked my resume, got a $5 an hour job, and looked for a mentor. And I, I found a guy named Frank Zorino who was at Chicago Research and Trading, who is, which also was founded by a philosophy major. It's actually very common. Why is that common? Yeah, I wish I knew the answer. I, I don't know the answer. I, I do know that there's 3 or 4 of the largest trading firms in the world are run by philosophy majors. And if you look back at my class, just of, you know, there's a few professors in there, but there are people who make movies. There's a guy who runs an ad agency, a large ad agency. It's a really interesting path. It's not just like studying physics. Like, I know some great physicists who are great in whatever they do. And I think it's a similar discipline of abstract thought. Like, I can't think of anything worse than studying business. It just seems like a terrible thing to study to me.

Is that, is that because it's like the surface of the waves in the ocean topically, it's just so non-transferable in a sense. And then as you go lower and lower to the kind of slower moving layers, that's just more multidisciplinary in terms of studying like the basics of how things work or how people think.

Yeah, I think it's, it's almost like it's how to do something or how to manage something, but not why to do it. And so if you're taught in 1992, if I went and got an MBA, I would've been taught a certain kind of management that 6 years later with the internet would've gotten blown up. And so for me, it's like I always ask the why question. You know, you were mentioning like the book publishing or, or a bar. You know, I just look at some things and I just go like, why is that? Why does it work that way? And oftentimes the people most entrenched in a system, have no idea why. They're like the third or fourth generation of person within that system, and they have no idea why a school bell rings in the morning, for example, or why a bartender is washing the dishes. And often I don't know the real answer, but I come up with alternative ones, at least that suit my narrative, I guess.

Undervalued skill, by the way, in some cases, right? You got to be careful, but very, very, very, very interesting. I want to pause here partially because I'm overcaffeinated. I was inspired by my nostalgia related to your double espressos, but why did the professor pull you aside? What did that early undergrad professor in Logic 101 see in you, whether he explained it or not later, I don't know, that led him to take a special interest in you?

I think I was prepared and earnest because I was mostly terrified. He had a reputation of being kind of like a, He was a Socratic method teacher. He was pretty harsh. Colgate was very small classes and there was a class of, you know, 80 people and he kind of wanted to whittle it down to a more manageable number. And his method to do that was just to kick your ass. And I remember, I mean, he probably, as great as he was, he, I doubt he would survive starting out at a college campus now. I literally saw him light fire to someone's notebook once. When he was asking people like examples of how to put out a fire. And this one guy was just stuttering because he was so in fear. And so he just lit his notebook on fire and he stamped it and the kid threw it on the ground, stamped on it. He's like, you could smother it. Sure. And he called everyone, he memorized every person's last name and it was Mr. and Ms. And, um, I remember the specific day he was literally back to the, it was like right out of a movie. He is back to the class writing on a chalkboard, some logic problems, symbolic logic. And the guy next to me had no shot at getting it, right? None, right? He said his name and I wrote on the paper on my desk so he could see it, like what the answer was. And then without missing a beat or turning around, he was like, Mr. Konis, please do not help him. There is no way in hell he could possibly have done that without your help. And this is like 2 or 3 weeks in, right? And he spun around and he saw that I didn't have my book. And he said, Mr. Kokonas, where is your book? And I said, it's at my, it's in my dorm room, you know, professor. And he said, well, a lot of good it's doing you there. I said, on the contrary, it must apparently be doing me a lot of good there. And he said, I'll see you after class. So I thought I was getting kicked out. And there was like a line forming to create office hours or to like ask to be transferred out or whatever. And when I got to the front, he said, follow me. And I followed him to his office. And I swear, I mean, he's running through the fall, New England fall, and I thought I was going to get kicked out of the class. And when I closed the door, I turned around, he has feet up on the desk and he said, where are you from? What do you want to do here? And that was it. He took me under his wing. I was very fortunate. I, um, and you know, it's like, I never knew. Here's the amazing part. I never knew the guy liked me until 10 years after I graduated. And then I was treated like a member of his family at his funeral 30 years later. Right. So really fascinating person, really fascinating moment in my life where I don't know, someone saw something in me and kind of went like, I'm going to make an investment in this person. They never asked for anything back, you know, ever.

How did you not know that he liked you? Did he withhold in some way so that you wouldn't get a big head or something along those lines? Did he not want to get overly attached to you so he wouldn't express it?

No, no, no. I think I was 19 years old and I didn't know that people you like, you hold to a higher standard, probably. Right. And so consequently, he beat the shit out of me in a good way. You know what I mean? It's like if you have someone who's teaching you something and they invest their time in you and they think you have a chance of being good, they work you harder than the folks around you. So the people that I thought he liked, he was just being nice to because they didn't— he didn't think they had a chance. Right. Yeah.

He didn't care.

He wasn't invested. Yeah. And so with me, I think it would be like he would be talking to my English professor without me even knowing and being like, that paper sucks. He can do a lot better than that. Give him a C on that one. I was like, what's going on? Like all of a sudden that class got hard. I didn't know. I had no idea. And it was just, it was an interesting, lucky, fortunate place to be at that time.

So we're going to get back to the Merck, but before we do, philosophy. I'm endlessly fascinated by philosophy, but I'm also a nerd and kind of academic and pedantic, and I've spent a lot of time in school. For people who are listening to this who are, say, already in their careers, or maybe they're in their early 20s thinking of starting a company, but are entrepreneurially either involved or inclined, would you suggest if they don't have any exposure to philosophy that they read any particular books or resources or explore it in any way? Or would you say, actually, you know what, that was an intermediate step to something else. You would probably be better off studying X, Y, and Z. Is there like a starter kit or something you would recommend to folks who don't have the philosophy exposure?

I think part of it is if you read a book in isolation, it's not as rich of an experience as discussing those ideas within that context. That said, if it's, if you're the kind of person that loves to read and explore ideas, I mean, there's hardly a better place. It's a matter of finding what you enjoy. I happen to love The Problems of Philosophy, which Bertrand Russell wrote sort of about Wittgenstein's ideas, but before Wittgenstein published, and it's written in plain language. It's not hard to understand. Certainly Nietzsche is more like philosophy with some weird sugarcoating of something on top of it. And man, like as a young male, you know, reading Nietzsche for the first time, I was like, fuck yeah. You know, like, like it's not like it's not passive. Like I think people think of philosophers as like Zen monks sitting there quietly contemplating the universe. I think what it is is it's people grappling with all the same questions and curiosity that, that we all have if you pause to think about it. And so it's so big. It's not just Descartes, I think therefore I am. It's kind of every little bit of that back to like, you know, read Lucretius. He had the atomic theory.

Could you spell that? I'm going to be the first one to admit that. Lucretius.

Oh, I can't. Oh, Lucretius. Lucretius. Yeah.

Lucretius.

Yeah. I mean, L-U-C-R-I-T-I-U-S. Yeah. I'm a terrible speller. So if it never asked me to spell anything, we'll put it in the show notes.

Yeah.

Right, right. But like, you know, it's like you read that or read this great book called The Swerve. Which is about this monk ages ago that sort of found that book and then rewrote it and saved it for history. Like, that reads like a murder mystery. Like, you don't necessarily need to start with the philosophy. You can start with the things around it. I continue to find sort of the world of ideas endlessly inspirational. And then, by the way, steal them and use them in whatever you're doing. They're there for you. Lucretius, L-U-C-R-E-T-I-U-S.

Titus Lucretius Carus was a Roman poet and philosopher. We'll put that in the show notes. I want to second Bertrand Russell also. I haven't read Bertrand Russell in so many ages, but it is very digestible. It is not dressed up in $10 words when 10-cent words would suffice. A lot of his writing is really powerful. I also just wanted to mention for folks that, and I just thought about this ages and ages ago, I felt like I had certain gaps in my education after college. And I ended up, I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier, but somebody mentioned that Stanford, UC Berkeley, these top-tier universities all had extended or adult education classes taught by professors and junior professors. I mean, these— this is the same team who's teaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are very readily accessible.

Well, and even MIT OpenCourseWare, like so many colleges now have taken that model and put great, great, great classes online. And, you know, I know that every now and then I'm surprised what I find on there and get sucked into like an all-nighter of taking some college class, you know, that I know nothing about and it's so far over my head, but it kind of refuels you again to go like, oh, like there are huge gaps where I know nothing. And the older you get, the harder it is to start into something new. I find at least because it feels like the mountain's too big, you know.

I would actually, not to pull a Nick, actually say on the contrary, on the contrary, sir. My book is doing me a lot of good in my dorm room. That's right. I think one of your superpowers is that you ask the fundamental why questions about longstanding assumptions or conventional wisdom in different fields. And the more you have done that, the more obvious it is to you to do it as a starting point in a way. Let's go back to the Merck. We can go in any direction, of course, but yeah. You step into this Lord of the Flies slash gladiatorial arena with butchers and PhDs and so on, then what? At what point is there a point when you're like, okay, I actually do think I could be good at this?

No, no, I, for real, no. I was down there and I had made a fatal error of leaving school and everyone told me it was a fatal error. And this is leaving the middle school. Yeah. And I remember being down there and, you know, what I was doing was so brainless. It was literally, you take this piece of paper over to that guy and then that guy would yell at you and you would rip the paper out of your hand and then you'd go get another one. It was literally that brain dead. And I was desperately looking to learn what was going on around me. And of course I bought books on finance and commodities and options and all that, and they were completely ridiculous and opaque and academic that, and they looked like they had no relationship to what was going on there at all. I started taking classes that were run at the Merc on mock trading and just learning the hand signals and things like that, which were fine but didn't really teach you how to trade. And I spent, you know, time interviewing with big companies like Goldman Sachs and Société Générale and whatnot, because I did have the academic background where I would get the interview, I would be able to take the test, I would do well on their math and psychology tests. I would get offered a job as a trader, and then I would look at the contract. And this is a key thing. People get out of college, they get offered a job. I think I'm the only one who ever read the employment contract. And what it said in there was basically like they could do anything they want with me for 3 years. Like I don't even necessarily need to be a trader. Like I, that's what I was interested in doing, but they could, they could ship me to France and have me do something totally different. I could be an analyst or,, you know, God knows what. And so when I would question that, they'd be like, man, you should be really happy. Like we had, you know, 300 applicants for this and we offered 8 positions, like just take it. And I was kind of like, totally your style. I'd be remiss not to say that, like my dad modeled, my dad was an entrepreneur by necessity because his dad died when he was really young. He fought both at the end of World War II. He was drafted into the Navy at the end of World War II. Was dismissed honorably after 16, 18 months because they were downsizing the Navy. And then he was barely young enough to be drafted into the Army for the Korean War. And when he got out, like, you know, he had no usable skills. So he went to work at the grocery store that he started working at when he was 12 years old, saved up all of his money from the Army and the Navy and bought the store. So as I was growing up, you know, my hero was my dad, who was not an academic, who was not not what people would think of as like an executive in a suit or whatever, but did really well. He had bought property in real estate. He owned a temporary labor office that supplied unskilled laborers to factories and conventions and whatnot. That was a really good business, you know, and he had a lot of common sense smarts. He was horrified that I didn't go to law school, you know, but meanwhile I was modeling what he did. And so when I got down there, I was like, you gotta own, you have to own your own situation.. And so when I was offered those jobs, I was like, well, I don't really see myself working for someone else. And I found a guy who also felt that way, and he was working for a big company and they didn't want to make him a trader because he was too much of a quant. Like he was really well-educated. He was really mathematical. He wanted to prove them wrong. So he took a small amount of money and started trading currency options. And when I found him, I instantly knew that this was the right person because I talked to dozens of people and no one was like him. And then he said he doesn't— didn't want to hire me. Like, he didn't want to hire anyone.

How did you meet him?

Do you remember how you guys met? Yeah, I was, I was just introduced to him through— he was back then, there were, you know, if you're a trader or even a trading company, you have a clearing firm like Goldman Sachs. At the time, there was a company called First Options and he cleared First Options. And back then you would literally have to take the elevator up. To keypunch in all the cards into like a computer that was 17 floors away. Wow. Ancient times. I met him through being introduced to him there. After talking to him, I knew he was the sort of geeky intellectual that I, that I needed. And then when he told me like that he didn't want to hire me because he just hired some clerk, I was like, no, no, no, no. Like, I will pay you to work for you. And he was like, this is really strange, you know? And I explained to him what I just said. It's like, look, I've been here 6 months. I set a goal for myself of getting on a badge. It was called like leasing a seat and actually trading within a year. And I was like, I need to get going on this. Like, I need someone that's going to teach me options. And it's fascinating because he then hired me for— I mean, I want to say it was $400 a week or something like that. You know, I stood right next to him all day, every day, and he taught me options theory from scratch better than any college ever could. To the point where you're looking, you know, 3 derivatives in, it's not just volatility curve, but the curve of the curve. And you know, as soon as I started grasping this and going deeper down that rabbit hole, the more I liked it as a puzzle. It wasn't certainly the money had an appeal, but it was also, hey, here's this giant competition. It's like playing a huge multifaceted chess game. That no one's going to get exactly right. But like I said earlier, it's about making hundreds of decisions a day. And even when you get 10 in a row that come up tails, you know that the next one's 50/50, you know. And that discipline was interesting. That was more about teaching yourself the psychology of standing there while everyone told you you were wrong or you were like physically small or you were too educated or too serious. I mean, you can't imagine how much of a fraternity house that place was. Everything in Wolf of Wall Street I have seen. I haven't lived, but I've seen it all. Yeah. And I started hiring very shortly after I started trading. And about a year later, I left and started my own company with almost nothing. And I hired my first employee who became my business partner for the last 25 years. And I taught him what I, what I learned. And I hired people that I considered corporate refugees, people who worked for companies and decided that independence was better. Why did you leave after a year? He was moving over to the Chicago Board of Trade, and I had found a couple of awesome programmers to help build this options analysis software, and he sort of offered me up to run some of the operations at the Mercantile Exchange when he went over to trade the bonds at the Board of Trade. And, you know, I mean, he was a really, really smart guy and he made me a deal that when you analyzed it very carefully, got worse over time. And I just kind of went, you know, it's been great and I've learned a ton and we've made each other a bunch of money and it's a win-win, but I really wanted to do my own thing. Like I wanted to be the captain of my own ship, I guess. And thankfully this guy, Jim Hansen, who's still one of my dearest friends, sort of had an option to stay with that company or come at a completely underfunded company. I mean, thinking back, it was so stupid, you know, from a risk perspective, but it was asymmetric, you know, far more upside than downside. It worked out really well and we spent most of our time as we hired people and taught them how to do this, it was mostly psychology training. It was mostly standing around after hours and saying, what's 7 times 28? And screaming it at each other like a drill sergeant until the person couldn't remember what 9 times 3 was anymore. And wait, why did you do that? Well, you had to be quick. You had to be quick on basic mental agility. So if you bought, if you bought 450 contracts and it was a 20 delta, you needed to be able to do what's 20% of 450? It's 90. But you need to do that precisely with numbers that are not so round, right? You need to be willing to not be perfect, and you need to make that decision instantaneously and realizing that it could cost you $50,000 to $100,000 if you get it right or wrong. And you have to be really, really comfortable with that. And so what did we do? Well, we stood around and we turned people's brains into mush until, like, I've had people punch me, cry, run out, No, I mean, it sounds awful, but it's amazing training because the rest of the world moves much slower. So any other decisions that I've made in business since then have felt glacial in pace. Yeah.

There's also something to be said for making the training in some or all respects harder than the competition, right? I mean, the adage of the more you sweat during peacetime, the less you bleed during wartime. The best competitors I've met in many, many fields often strive to make their training and the toil of their preparation harder than what they expect to face.

It's why we love watching big-time sports when it matters. There are certain people that, you know, you can almost look at them and go, oh, that poor person's going to fade. And then you, you hope they don't, right? You hope all that training pays off when you see someone. I love golf for all the same reasons. It's like, you know, just a series of constant failures. And so when you look at someone who can pull that rabbit out of the hat, you know, at exactly the right moment, it's pretty wonderful to see. And the thing I loved about my time down there, even though I burned out of it after 10 years, is that there were moments where I did absolutely— I mean, I have friends, they'll listen to this and they'll be like, oh yeah, I remember that time in the S&P pit, you really got this right. You know, But I made some completely stupid decisions, but mostly on the measure when things got crazy, I was able to perform more than not. I remember like Greenspan's irrational exuberance speech was like a formative moment where I kind of went, wow, I can actually, I can not only hang in this environment, I can thrive in it. And you know, you get home soaking wet with sweat. It was a physical job, I guess, with people. It was really blue collar in a lot of ways. And you know, it's like I got home that day and I was like, that was what I prepped my last 6 years for. It was very satisfying. It sounds like an awful— it is an awful thing in a way, right? Like it's just about pure commerce. It serves a purpose of price discovery and all of that. But any individual person isn't really the one doing that, you know? So I think that there are negatives to the whole system as well in hindsight. But man, at the time it just felt like great mental training.

What would you recommend to people who are listening and are having this flashback to the introductory text exchange about beating the market over a long period of time who are hoping to become better investors? And you can take that anywhere you want, but are there any particular tools, tricks, mental models, anything that you would recommend?

It's really, really hard. I think the mental model is asymmetric risk. I always look for something that the upside is, you know, 3 to 4x the downside. Obviously quantifying those is very difficult, but that's the key. Everything I try to do is asymmetric. And then even though Nassim Taleb is a bit of a pedantic goofball on Twitter, his book Fooled by Randomness is awesome. That was the one that preceded Black Swan. And I think Black Swan's great. It's fine. But Fooled by Randomness is, I think, the better of all his books because it just encapsulates everything that people price things incorrectly. It's a— all you have to do is walk through a casino. Yeah. You walk through a casino and you see everybody pricing their outcomes incorrectly. The entire city is built on that. You know, if you could get in your head, literally, literally, literally. Yeah.

Literally.

And I don't take any pleasure, like people are like, oh, you must have, you must love gambling or whatever. And it's like, I would never sit down to a blackjack table because I know that, you know, there's a 49.5% chance that I'm going to win, and that's the wrong way.

Yeah. Yeah. The Fool of Randomness has come up a number of times. I haven't read it in ages because it is one of his earlier books. But, you know, Howard Marks also brought this up recently when I was chatting with him, and it is an exceptional book, I think, for developing a new lens on life, not just investing. When you are investing for yourself now, how do you think about risk? Because this is a word that has popped up a few times. How do you personally think about risk in your life? Do you, for instance, like some startup founders, look at the risk as the various early-stage startups, restaurants, bars, and so on that you're involved with, and then you play it safe in your other kind of asset allocation? How do you think about risk in, in your life or in investing?

That's a pretty difficult question. I think that— yeah, I think that if you look at everything that I've, I've done business-wise, everybody would say that the failure rate is super high in what we do. So trading, they used to say 1 out of 100 people that goes down there breaks even their first year, and fewer out of that 1 take another 100 of those ones, and less than 1 in 100 of those becomes a millionaire. And I went, great. It's like the old Jim Carrey, so you're saying there's chance, you know, right? You know, and, and, and, and then, uh, and then you go to the restaurant business and people, oh yeah, 95% of all restaurants go out of business in their first 2 years. And I'm like going, great. You know, that's, that's perfect.

Why do you, why do you have that response?

Is it because— yeah. So, and then I'm going to start, I'm doing a software startup now. Go for it. So the higher, the smaller the hoop, the more interesting it is to figure it out. And once you're up there and you know how to jump up through that little hoop, there's fewer people playing that game, you know? And the other thing is, I remember right when I was going to start building Alinea with Grant, I was talking to a restaurant owner. And by all accounts, he was pretty successful. He had 4 or 5 restaurants and one of them I really liked a lot and we'd go there a lot and I kind of got to know him a little bit. And he said, so, you know, what are you up to? And I said, well, actually I'm building a restaurant now. And he looked at me, he said, oh, it's a terrible business. You don't want to do it. Like incredible failure rate. Terrible. And I was like, why did you build the next 4? So whenever, yeah.

What did he, how did he respond to that?

You know, no one does. That's kind of like what, you know, we'll get to it, I'm sure. But that's like the way I was with the publishing thing. It's like, hey man, people keep printing books and yet I can't figure out any of the information. And yet they're going to give me like $300,000 or $400,000 to write a book. Something's remiss here. Like, you know what I mean? I've never written a book before, but yet someone's going to write me a $400,000 check. There must be a lot of money on the other side of that bet. And so consequently, like, I always try to look for the high small hoops. And then I spend my time learning as much as I can, and then I jump through that hoop. It's both more interesting, I think. And I also think, getting back to the asymmetry of risk, those are the ones that, yeah, you might have a— well, first of all, do you really have a 95% failure rate if you put in all that effort? Yeah, I don't think so. You know, so I think they priced it wrong, so to speak. And then second of all, man, that's, that's where the fun is. That gets you up in the morning and going to work.

Yeah, this is where among many, many other places averages can be very, very misleading. And I always end up in public Q&As and things of this type hearing various numbers and stats thrown around, many of which I think have no basis on any data whatsoever. But there's the, we only use 10% of our brains, not true. There is the 9 out of 10 startups fail within the first year or whatever the stat is. And the first question that occurs to me with a number like the, the latter, or I guess a ratio is, well, is it because the model is difficult? Is it because startups are inherently that high risk? Or are there other plausible explanations? Is it that 9 out of 10 people who attempt to start a startup don't do any of the necessary due diligence. Correct.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, I've been on a couple of, like, graduate school, you know, entrepreneurship, you know, contests and whatnot. And one of the things that always happens there is what I call like the time machine. Someone comes up with a business plan that is like, you know, you know, I'm going to build a time machine. Now, of course, it's not really a time machine, but I have seen ones that defy the laws of physics, for example, or, you know, new pipeline technology, but they have no idea. Like, it's just a pipe dream. They've done none of the engineering. So you kind of look at that and you go, you haven't really done the homework yet at all. And then there's a lot of people that come to me and they've spent like 6 months doing their logo and then, and the name of the company, but they don't actually have a piece of software yet. Right. I'm just going to hire someone to build that for me or an app. Yeah. I get so many apps pitched to me. And, you know, they don't know how to build an app, but they've got a logo and an idea. And I was like, that's a good way to blow $500,000 on a consultant. Oh, man, I— you must get all that.

You must get that 50 times worse than I. Yeah. I mean, what I tend to get— and this is part of the reason why I stopped all the startup stuff a couple of years ago— is it got to the point where 90% of the pitches I received, which were unsolicited, would be along the lines of, hi, comma, like not even a first name, or be like, hi Tim, or hey Tim, even better. I am the CEO or co-founder of X. We are raising this at this valuation. We are oversubscribed, but we could squeeze you in for $25K if you're really interested because we admire ABC. Here are the docs attached. Yeah, right. Let us know if you're interested in the next 60 minutes, which might end up— my default response to anything like that where people are pressuring me for a fast decision is no. Like, it's just Yeah, correct. It's like I've lost very little money saying no to those things. But coming back to the examples that you were giving and what we were talking about, bridging over to restaurants and food, you're being told how restaurants are an awful business. Food is an awful business. And I remember someone told me a long, long time ago, they're like, "Yep, if you want to lose money, go into magazines or restaurants." And At what point— I have a little bit of the backstory, but not all the details. Like, at what point do you decide to go into or get involved with restaurants and why?

I left trading in about 2002, 2001. It was a, you know, tough year between 9/11, which was— my father died in February of that year. I was burnt out after, you know, going really hard for so long. And, you know, we'd built up a pretty good-sized company too, and I merged with a firm in New York. And I just, I kind of needed a break, but didn't know how to really take one at the time. And so I left trading and I immediately kind of panicked because here's something that I really genuinely enjoyed, but didn't kind of know what I wanted to do next. And started doing consulting for, you know, a small hedge fund and then just didn't know what to do. And I had, you know, an awesome wife and a young son and things were good, you know,, but I was kind of panicked. I was playing golf with like, you know, ex-athletes, 'cause who else is 34 years old and can play golf on a Wednesday afternoon? And so it was just a weird thing. And I kind of looked at them and I'm like, oh, they don't really seem all that happy even though they're, they've got this lifestyle. And so I met Grant Achatz, the chef at Dwell Dining at TRIO, went to a lunch there one afternoon that some friends set up and it was, a transformative experience. It was artistic, it was intellectual, it was thought-provoking. Most of all, it was emotional. And those are all things that I would never have associated with eating a dinner, right? And so from a perspective of like great art experiences, like seeing a great movie or a great play or going to an amazing museum opening, we kept drawing back there. Like we kept going back and we would go back so frequently that it was absurd because, you know, it was a big meal and it wasn't cheap. And every time we'd go somewhere else, we'd go like, wow, why are, why is no one else thinking this way? And as I got to know Grant a little bit, I think like sometimes people bring, you know, the chef some wine or beer or whatever, and it's like, that's kind of sand to the beach, you know? I would, I would bring him books and I didn't figure he had a lot of time to read. So I would put like a Post-it note on a page of an old book. So I remember I brought him this book called The Peregrinations of an Epicurean.

Hold on a second. The Peregrinations, like a Peregrine Falcon?

I don't even know what that is. No, no, no.

A peregrination is like a wandering about. Ah, okay.

So it was written just after World War II by an ex-serviceman. He kind of goes around Paris. I want to say maybe late '40s, early '50s. I can't recall exactly. And there was there's a chapter in there on La Périmide, which was a very classical restaurant, kind of the best in the world at the time. And he described a meal there in emotional terms that resonated with what Grant was doing, even though his technique, his cuisine, everything was completely different. And so I would literally just highlight like a couple lines in there and give him this book, which was out of print at the time. We kind of developed this email relationship back and forth where he would sort of try out some new food on us and I would give direct, honest feedback, but not like, oh, it was delicious. It was more like, it was more like, you know, you're going for a provocation there. But if you, you know, and we would go back and forth and he wrote at the time on a forum called eGullet. And I went on there and his spelling and grammar notwithstanding, I mean, it was like reading someone who's just really thinking hard about what they were doing. Everything we just talked about. Here was this young 28-year-old chef from Michigan who looked like Captain America, who would come out not— you know, he was like Hollywood in the sense of like he was good-looking and very driven and very clean-cut. But he didn't look like, you know, the stereotype central casting of a chef, right? You know, chubby, gregarious guy. He was really quiet and introspective, shy. But then you read and, you know, these which are still up, you know, you can still Google it. And you'd go like, you know, he'd go on for like 4 pages about bread service. Like, what's the point of bread? You know? And this is a guy that I could wrap my, you know, wrap my head around. And so I remember on January 20th, 2004, it was my wife's birthday and she said, yeah, I want to go back there. And we'd never been in the kitchen before. And they have a table there, but we'd never eaten in there. And I remember I emailed him and said, She's ethnically Latvian, speaks Japanese, loves Thai food. Good fucking luck. And I knew exactly what that would do to him. That would put him into 10 days of pure hell because he would research Latvian food. He would have to redo, like he would redo a whole menu, 20 courses. Right. And I didn't know they were going to put us in the kitchen and they put us in the kitchen. I mean, it sounds like a jerky thing to do now, but we, we did have a relationship a little bit at the time, and he served us like the most amazing meal of my life, you know? And it started out with Latvian sorrel soup with braised hamboks. And you know, it had Flavors of the Sea, which was a Japanese dish. It had, it had Thai dishes, but it was all in his style. And so it was his own, and yet it had elements of all these things. And at the end of that meal, he said to me, well, what do you think? And I had watched the kitchen and it was like a watchmaker shop.

It was not screaming and yelling. It is, it is just as— sorry to interrupt. It is so unlike anything that the vast majority of people listening to this would possibly expect, right?

Yeah. It's not Gordon Ramsay.

It's not Gordon Ramsay, right? It is just complete silence. It is like a watchmaking factory. It is, uh, it is really something else.

Anyway, sorry to jump in. Yeah, no, no, no, that's totally fine. And so at the end I said, I doubt anybody anywhere in the world had a better meal tonight. And he was like, well, thank you. And I said, what are you planning on doing with yourself? I mean, I was like, kind of, I had a lot of wine and I kind of looked at him, he sat down with us and I said, what are you going to do? And he goes, well, what do you mean? I said, well, you're not going to be here forever. And he said, well, I, I want to build my own restaurant. And I said, I'd be happy to help you do that. And he said, well, what kind of restaurant do you want to build? I said, I don't know. I've never built a restaurant before. That was it. And then like a week later, I got an email with his business plan and I invited him by my house. And a year to the day later of that, that was May 4th. We went back and forth on email. May 4th, we held a dinner at my house for potential investors.

And on May 4th, 2005, we opened Alinea.

That is nuts in terms of— completely nuts.

We didn't even know each other. Can you put that in perspective for people? I actually did not realize that was the timeframe. Yeah. I mean, can you just in the context of like normal restaurant world?

We argued like, so we didn't really know each other very well.

You've said we didn't know each other very well. What did you know about each other nonetheless that gave you guys the push, like the impulse and the sufficient level of trust/excitement to actually pursue it, right? There had to be something there. It couldn't just be nothing. So what was it? You didn't know each other well.

I mean, maybe you didn't know the full scope of each other's backgrounds. Yeah. I mean, I actually studied that. Like that, I actually knew. I knew the facts, you know, and I knew what he was putting in front of me, but I didn't know him the way you'd know someone that you're going to become a business partner with. And I think he just thought I was rich. I'm being serious. Like, yeah, yeah, correct. Like, you know, I think everyone else wanted— this is really true because he has said this to me. Everyone else wanted to offer him a restaurant that they had already built or wanted to build. And I actually answered that question correctly. The, I don't know, is an awesome thing to say like 90% of the time of your life, right? And so when he said, what kind of restaurant do you want to build? I could have waxed on about some dream I had or just made some bullshit up at the time, but I just said like, I have no idea. Like, we should— that's a big question. We need to sort that out. And I think that was the right answer for him. I think that's all he needed to know was like, okay, the guy's got an open mind. He seems to have done well in business. He knows apparently how to build something. What was really funny is that the stuff that I was concerned about, which was like, architecture, design, plumbing, you know, building, lease, all of that. He was like, the word oblivious is not too strong of a word. You know, I mean, I'm, this is not a criticism of him either, right? It's just like he came to my house and he was just like, yeah, I, you know, I want Martin to design everything. And Martin Kastner, who is a genius designer, has Crucial Detail, which we've been involved with for 15 years now. He's a designer. He's like an artisan. Like he built plateware and he won the Bocuse d'Or for the platter he designed Thomas Keller, Daniel Boulud's team for Team USA and all that now. But back then, like, I mean, this guy's not going to design plumbing or electrical. So I would just look at him going like, well, no, he can't. We need an architect and you need to get city stamps on all that and all that. So I think Grant was just like, yeah, you find a place, you put tables in it and, you know, build a kitchen and you go in terms of like, obviously he knew there were health inspectors and all that. But the process of all this, just about you either were going to not build it ever 8 weeks in because we would have hated each other, or we were the kind of people that figured everything out and we just talked it out, like right down to what kind of tables, what kind of glassware, what kind of this. Like, we wanted to rethink the why again of everything. Like, why do you put a candle on a table? Why is a candle romantic? That's a question we asked. Do we need candles? That's kind of like, why is that romantic? Why do people put a little bud vase on the table. Why shouldn't that be an edible thing? That'd be cool. So we did all that and we designed the experience to create emotional responses from the moment that you walked in the front door. So we didn't have the podium. We went, what does a good greeting feel like? Not just if you're at someone's house, what does that feel like? If you're at a restaurant, what shouldn't it feel like? Well, it shouldn't feel like a computer in front of your face saying, what's your name? You know, and all that. So we, we went through every aspect of that. And, you know, I lost almost 20 pounds that year, not in a healthy way, just like GCing the construction. I laid tile in the basement like 3 days before we opened.

Let me pause for one second. So the why question that comes to mind for me is after the finance, after battling it out on the front lines and going through 2001, why this as your next thing? Why was this the thing that captured your imagination? Because you had to know on some level once you started getting into the details, like, fuck, I mean, this is going to be—

Yeah, it's all in.

This is going to be a big— This is going to be all my chips energetically.

So why this? There are occasional times when you wake up in the morning and that thought comes back to you that Hey, I'm really sucked into this, right? You know, and for about 3 or 4 months without telling anybody, even, you know, Dagmara, like even not telling her, like telling no one, I kept going like, I should build a restaurant with this guy. It would be the best restaurant in the world if it was done all the way. And I recognized my inner voice saying, that's a really dumb idea, you know, and you don't know what you're doing. I'd never worked a day in my life in a restaurant. And I also recognized, and this is also critical, I recognized that so many people built their living room after they made some money. So they went like, oh, well, I know how to host a good dinner party and I know good wine, so I'm going to build me a restaurant. And then they sit there like it's their living room and that's not good. Like, I didn't want to be that, that douchey guy that built a restaurant because my ego was needed to host a party. And so whenever I would kind of later on broach that subject and people would say like, well, you know, I could almost hear their brain whispering, well, of course that's what he's going to do. And so that was again, not the best of motivations in the world perhaps, but the honest one that was hugely motivating eventually. But when we first started, it was this nagging thing like, I'd wake up in the morning and I would go, you know, I'm not really into what I'm doing right now. And I've just met somebody who's the best in the world at what they do. And no one knows it yet. That's probably happened to me. I'm really fortunate that that's probably happened to me 7 or 8 times in my life. And when it happens and I meet that person, whoever it may be, no matter what they're doing, I pause, I kind of acknowledge that directly. And then I just go like, can we grab a glass of wine or coffee or something? And that's something worth marking and going like, wow, this person's really invested in something. And Grant had every aspect of being, being that at 28 years old. And in hindsight, like, it looks smart, but I gotta tell you, it was years before it felt smart.

You mentioned just now that you've met these people 7 or 8 times who are the best in the world Or potentially the best individual. Or among them. Yeah.

Yeah. Among them.

But the key point that jumps out for me is, "And the world didn't know it yet." So my question for you is, that sort of brings to the forefront in my mind at least, the question of what is Nick seeing or feeling that other people are not? So could you talk to that? I mean, is there a feeling or a particular type of observation, a particular type of detail that you notice in these people That allows you to scout the talent where other people might miss it or not pay enough attention to it.

Yeah, I mean, I think you've written a couple of books about, about that. It's definitely intangible. I think it's different in every case, but it's interesting because you can tell when someone is fully committed, I guess, to their craft or their art or their business or whatever it is that they're doing. Their sport. And it's not because they talk about it all the time, though of course if you push a little, they're happy to do so. But it's more that like, if you look around, like the vast majority of people are not fully committed to whatever. And I think part of what you do is you try to steer people to find those things that they can commit to, or you can try to lower a barrier to show them like, hey, the commitment's not as hard as you think in this particular area, right? Right. But these folks are like, they're all in, they're 99% in. That's what they do, often to the detriment, frankly, of other aspects of their lives. And I guess you get better at noticing them. And I mean, now, like, that's like, boy, I live for that. Like, I love meeting people that even if it's not something I'm interested in, that are all in. That's an interesting— weirdly, I've never really thought about it that way, but like, it was just very clear to me that Grant was all in. If he wasn't going to do it with me, he was still going to do it. Yeah. I was a helper. I, you know, over time I certainly contributed, you know, a great deal to it. Not just— he contributed a great deal to business and then I also contributed to the art, but that took time, you know, but I could tell that he was all in and that was fun. I mean, it's fun to work with somebody who, is basically like, okay man, if you're not in, like, get out of the way because I'm still going.

And for, for anyone who has the opportunity— I don't even know if they would have the opportunity— but to watch, observe Grant even for 60 seconds— well, Chef's Table on Netflix is great. Chef's Table, yeah, great, perfect. So yeah, everybody should have the experience of observing Grant working and focusing. It is— I've, I've met a lot of people who are good at focusing, who have abnormal focusing abilities, and spending the time that we did together in Chicago and the time that I had to observe Grant is— it is a next level of focus. It's, it's really hard to encapsulate in words, so Chef's Table, fantastic. People should check it out and just watch the level of focus that permeates the appearance, the air, the atmosphere. It's really something else. To that point, focus. One of my favorite aspects of speaking with you and having conversations is the questions that you raised. Candle, not just should we have candles, that's maybe a good question, but it's probably not the right first question. Why do restaurants use candles in the first place? Furthermore, why are candles considered romantic? Right?

Like kind of stepping back. Basic stuff.

Yeah. What are other questions that you asked related to Alinea? Or you could certainly bridge to other— you know, I think it makes sense to chat about Aviary as well. But what are some other questions that you guys asked that people might, might not think to ask?

Yeah, I mean, you know, Grant set the tone for that. In our first meeting, not really knowing me. And we started talking, but we didn't even know where to start. Right. And he said, well, I know one thing. I want to have wooden tables. Like I want to have bare wood tables. And I said, why? He said, well, why do tables, why do fancy restaurants have white tablecloths? They literally call it a white tablecloth restaurant if it's fancy. Why? And I couldn't really, I came up with dumb answers like, oh, it feels good. Absorbs like a spill or whatever it may be. And he said, no, it's because the table underneath is a piece of shit. He goes, and you know that, like, as soon as you say it, everyone goes, oh yeah, I knew that. And you've been at weddings and stuff where you feel under the table and you're like, oh, it's plywood, right? But if you go to like a really fancy restaurant, you feel under the table, guess what? Also plywood, just a little thicker. And he's like, you know, when you rest your arms on the table, Even if it doesn't come forefront in your mind, you kind of subconsciously know that they're kind of fooling you. And he's like, why can't we just have like black beautiful tables? It'll show the food great. It'll show the plateware great. And then I kind of went like, well, yeah, but the health department doesn't let you put in Chicago, doesn't let you put silverware right on the table. And if you put a glass there, the condensation will form a little ring and then you have a wear issue., but you'll save $70,000 a year in laundering linens. And so we started going like, well, how do we solve the water problem? Well, you create a fridge that's just above the dew point, 44 degrees, you know, in the winter, maybe a little warmer in the summer because it's higher humidity in Chicago and you just get rid of ice. So you have these cascading decisions that become part of the art of the place that some of them start from like a really practical thing, like, hey, we want to have a quality table. And then all of a sudden you need a little pillow that the silverware goes on that Martin designed because you can't put— we didn't want to have placemats, that's too cheap. So all of a sudden we had to design like a silverware holder. So it just became this cascade of like interesting little art projects that were there for good reasons. And Really created a unique atmosphere and it was like one of those things, like we never tested it until the day we opened. Like you couldn't test those things. And the very first guy through the door was, is now a famous chef, Chef Sean Brock of Husk.

Oh, fantastic.

Yeah. So he was not, he was not yet a chef then, 2005. And he was the first guy through the door and he wrote this giant blog post on Eatgullet with pictures and everything. You can go see it. And every single thing that we hoped would create an emotional trigger, an emotional reaction, it's almost all there. Like, I remember going home and seeing that the next day and going, wow, that shit actually worked. And you know, and it's like right down to the front hallway that was, you know, a reverse perspective, you know, stolen from Chartres Cathedral and inverted, you know? So all of my interest of architecture and art and science and all of Grant's, you know, food and all that, like, all came together in like a year-long conversation on how to do something. And we really fought with the architect and designers and, and all that because people would tell us the practical reasons why you needed to do this or that, and we would just go, nope, no host stand. Like, you know, we want to greet people in an open way. And so just little things like that And then we've taken that on, you know, through everything that we've done where we took, you know, 7 years, 6 years to build our next place because we didn't have that idea that kept us up at night again. And so, you know, when we did, then we did it. And I think editing yourself and each other in an open way is really, really painful, but really, really important.

And coming back to something you mentioned related to the living room, the well-off who then create, say, an art project that is not maybe beautiful, but is most often not a viable business. How did you apply those questions and rethink the business model to make any of this work? Financially?

Yeah, well, I mean, you don't want to be a dilettante, right? You know, my biggest fear is that it would work in an artistic way but wouldn't work as a business. And so the answer is, at the beginning, I didn't do much. I handled all of our marketing and PR. I think I wrote everything, you know, myself, really thought about open sourcing the building of the restaurant, you can still go online and see the original business plans and what logos we were considering using and the test kitchen, which was in my house. You know, we didn't tell anyone at the time, but that was my house at the time. And, and see the development of this restaurant. And I felt like the open source movement in that way was a good model for what we were trying to accomplish. And part of that was people would say like, a restaurant like this can't make money. And, you know, I wrote this little spreadsheet that I called the Universal Restaurant Calculator. And can people find that online? No, no, no. But it's— but it would be very unimpressive if they could. But it was, it was basically like how many covers per night? I mean, this is back of the envelope stuff. How many covers per night can you do? What's the check average for food? Check average for beverage? What are your food costs, beverage costs, labor costs? What's insurance costs? You know, your lease, your rent, like all those things, right? And I had enough experience with most of those things to at least give good estimates to it. And so what I started doing is I started modeling other restaurants using the Universal Restaurant Calculator. And I had, again, this goes to the transparency of data. I had real data for only 2 restaurants. And from those 2, I would then make assumptions about restaurants like the French Laundry where Grant used to work. Well, one of the greatest restaurants in the history of America, certainly. And and I came up with a number that Grant went, there's no way their revenue's that high or they make that much money. That's impossible. And it was really funny because years later, I now work with Jeff Keller and he's a friend all these years later. And I literally pulled that out one day with Grant being there and went like, how close am I on this back in 2005? And he's like, oh, you're within like 2 or 3%. And it's, we're talking about back of the envelope stuff. And so, you know, you asked like, where can people start to start a business? Start on the back of an envelope. Like, one of my favorite exercises is to sit in a restaurant or a small business of some sort and just literally do the back of the envelope. That is the kind of calculation my dad called it, the two shoebox method. Put me through college, right? Like, money coming in in one shoebox, money going out in the other. Whatever's left is profit. You know, start that basic. And we did that, and I didn't really think about We did well, but we didn't make a ton of money. Alinea cost $2.2 million to build. I put up a little over a quarter of that myself and found investors for the rest, all of whom I knew. And you know, in the first year we did, you know, we made about $450,000 to $500,000 on $4 or $5 million in sales. Not a great return, not a terrible return. We then won, you know, Best Restaurant in America from Gourmet Magazine. And I was horrified that we won that, frankly. I remember Grant called me and said, yep, I just got a call from Ruth Reichl. And like, we had some stated goals of like, how would we know if this is a success? And one of the things we wrote down was Ruth Reichl declares it the best restaurant in America. And we wrote that because in 1997, she wrote, the most exciting place to eat in America is The French Laundry. And Grant was there and cooked that meal and said that the energy of having someone that he respected so much, 'cause Ruth is just a great writer. She's one of the unimpeachable food critics in the history of America. And having her write that in New York Times propelled that restaurant to its permanent status. I think that can't happen nowadays, honestly, for other reasons. But this is kind of pre-internet, pre-Yelp, all that. And then all of a sudden we got that and I was like horrified because, you know, one of the goals was completed so early. We wouldn't have our like our lodestar, you know? And so he was like, dear God, can you let me enjoy it for like a minute? You know? To you? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was genuinely mad at me. I was like, that's terrible. Like, you know, I mean, I was happy, but I was also like, oh no, now what do we do? We need to find another artificial construct here to like go after.

And enough of this ha— I need to find happiness and get this other happiness out of my, out of my face.

Let me wait for this. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no, it's about, I really do believe that actually, that it's often the process is so rewarding that when you get something done, it, it can be a letdown. And, um, I wanted that process to go. And then unfortunately, 6 months later, Grant was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and given 6 months to live.. And so weirdly, that was the moment where after he was going through treatment, where I started going into the restaurant at night, because remember, I'm not a service professional. I was running the business of the restaurant. I would start going in at night and asking really dumb questions again. And weirdly, our goal was to keep Alinea open for when he came back. And mind you, he only missed like like, you know, 12 days, 14 days of service during really intense chemo and radiation. But he was given 6 months to live. And when people are in that situation and their livelihood is tied to this restaurant, even despite their loyalties, oftentimes they just need to find another job because they're like, hey, in 4 months this place is going to be closed. And in the midst of that, we decided to do our first book, really to chronicle what he had accomplished because for him, he felt like that would be his legacy. He thought he was going to die. He was told he was going to die. So in the midst of managing a self-created, self-published book and trying to do that differently and then keeping a dwindling staff motivated, trying to let him know that it would still be there when he got well, all of that, I started going, this place is run in strange ways, man. This industry is is, is not run right. And I started asking like basic questions, like if we have a waitlist for 100 people on a Wednesday, why do we do 74 people on a Wednesday but 86 on a Saturday? And the answer was because our incentives were misaligned. You know, the service industry as a whole can't run at 100% every single day of the week unless they're incentivized to do so. And you could go like, well, yeah, but every server there will make an extra $100 a night or whatever. But they're kind of going like, look, if every night was Saturday, I'd be dead. It's really hard work, you know? So you need to figure out ways of load balancing that and making every day the same, and you end up way ahead. So from a business perspective, that's when my sort of self-education in this industry came forward. And it came forward in a way that I think I was less patient with everything because we were also going through this really difficult emotional time. And so consequently, when I didn't get answers that made any sense, instead of being diplomatic about it, I would just be like, well, that's stupid. You know, which, which cut some of the normal social filter off. And I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant time to be around anybody. But I also think it was accepted within that environment at that time because everyone knew what we were going through. And so when we, you know, years Years later, when we finally like, we're kind of like, hey, we've got some ideas to build next in the aviary. That's when I kind of went like, well, we're going to do things totally differently here. And anyone who's not on board, even though they work for us, like if you're not on board all the way in, like on getting rid of normal reservations and not using telephones and doing all these things, I'm like, you know, we don't have a place for you here. And man, it really worked, you know. So that was the basis of, you know, I talked to every software company in the industry asking for their APIs, asking to build essentially what's options pricing software on top of reservation systems. And OpenTable told me no, and the POS systems told me no. I called theaters and went like, what ticketing system do you use? And all of those told me no. So I hired a single programmer and he and I in 6 weeks built a really rudimentary booking system, but the first day we turned it on, we sold $562,000 of tickets to a restaurant for the first time, for the first time ever.

Okay. So pause here for a second. No, no, no. This is great. This is great. So a few, a few things for folks who are not familiar. API, application programming interface. It's how you can effectively link into someone else's software.

POS, point of sale, not piece of shit.

And it is a piece of shit. Oh, it may also be a piece of shit. Yes. What were the design specs? That you were looking for? In other words, before you get to the $500,000-plus— Yeah, yeah. The snap of a finger, like, what were you trying to fix or what were you trying to create?

So I get a lot of grief for this, for saying this in the industry and in the press. But basically, whenever you make a restaurant reservation, one of the two of you talking is lying to each other. If you think about it, no other industry form of entertainment, which dining out is a form of entertainment. I know it's sustenance. I know there's so much culture embedded in it and all that, but you could eat at home, right? No other form of entertainment. You just call them up and say, hey, hold a seat to the Bears game or the Cubs game or the opera, and I'll show up around 7:30. And then they tell you, yeah, yeah, we'll have a seat ready for you at 7:30. And then when you get there, they go, oh, you know what, go wait over there for 30 or 40 minutes because we're running a little behind tonight. You know, the reason that they're running behind is because they overbooked, because about 15 to 18% of people just don't show up. So they overbook. They also know that if they tell you that they'll really seat you at 9 and you wanted an 8:15, you'll just go to the restaurant down the street from them that will lie to them. Right, right. So they do that and Ultimately, it's just bad all around. It's bad for the restaurant. It's wasteful for food and it's bad hospitality. There are so many pop culture references and entire sitcom episodes built around someone trying to get into a restaurant, right? It's absurd. It's completely absurd. And, you know, I looked at our no-show rate at Alinea, data-driven, tracked it. I looked at our what we call short-seated tables, like the number of tables that were 4 people but only 2 showed up. And the dirty secret there is like people would go like, well, what do you have available? Oh, well, I have an 8:30 for 4. Okay, we'll take that. And they never intended to bring the other 2 people. Well, that's just as bad as a 2-top no-showing. We only have 74 people in there. And so it's a yield management— or 74 seats. So it's a yield management problem. And so we— 5 to 8% of our revenue every night was, was being lost. To that transaction. That was a non-transaction. And so I wanted to figure out ways to do two things. One, I want to figure out ways to make it transactional, because again, you asked about Professor Thaler. One of the key tenets is there's a little bit of skin in the game, right? When people have a small vested interest in something, in the outcome of something, or even if I gave you a pencil as a gift and then 30 minutes later I want to take it back, you will get so mad even though you didn't care about that pencil. Right, right. And you're like, what was that? Yeah, dude gave me a gift, now he's pulling it back.

Yeah, it's like the expected— it's like the expected value of a mug if you ask them how much they would spend to buy the mug versus giving them the mug and saying, how much will you accept to sell it?

You know, the differential. Yes, huge. So, you know, that came to me one day because I— my kids wanted to go see a movie at night that I did not want to go see, and I was really, really like I would've easily paid $50 to not go to this movie. Yeah. And then my wife basically says, hey, well, let's go to that movie. So I go on Fandango, I buy 4 tickets, $60, whatever it was. And at like 5:30 at night, it's pouring rain and everyone's napping. And they're like, yeah, I don't want to go. And I'm like, get your asses in the car. We're going to the movie, man. Now I would've easily paid that $60 to not go to the movie, but once I had the sunk cost, of paying for the movie, my psychology totally flipped and I was like, we're going to this movie that I don't want to go to. And I literally irrationally made everyone go to the movie, like, which weirdly cost, you know, I mean, from an emotional family standpoint, all bad all the way around. Right. So I thought about it and I was like, wow, what if people put down a small deposit on times when demand exceeds supply? Like, right? So Saturday night, 8:00. Great. That's a— that's the best seats at the opera house. Let's see if people prepay for that or put down $20 for it. That's fully credited at the end of their meal. It's not a cover charge. I'm not trying to squeeze people on the actual cost of the meal. I'm just trying to go like, yeah, let's see if people make a commitment. And everybody told me, no, no one's going to do that. Like, this is not the way it works. But if you look back historically, this is the interesting part. Again, it's about like digging in deep on something. If you look back historically, restaurant reservations started with the telephone. And at the time that we were starting to do this, the telephone was dying. And I didn't know that at the time. You know, that was 8 years ago. But I have a computer in my pocket, and if you ring me and I don't know your number, I don't want to talk to you. I don't answer it. I'd much rather receive like a little piece of text. Letting me know what's going on than a phone call. Similarly, like calling a restaurant is an antiquated thing to do at this point, but long before the telephone, people got room and board. And what room and board was literally, it was like you go to an inn and you get a room for the night and then do you need food? Okay, well you get a board of food. That was literally it. And you'd prepay for it. And so there was hundreds of years of that long before there was a telephone and people called and said, yep, I'd like to eat at your restaurant. Sure, we'll let you in. And so as the technology for the telephone has morphed into, you know, what we all have in our pockets now, I just wanted to update that whole transaction. And so I also wanted to acknowledge that Tuesday nights should be cheaper than a Saturday night. So it has to work in both ways. I always thought Uber could have fixed their, their surge pricing issues by having discounted pricing when there was no demand, like just move pricing in two directions. And if you move pricing in two directions, then like that whole argument goes away, right? So we did that. We priced out different prices by day of the week and times a day. So 5 PM on Wednesday at Alinea is still cheaper than 8 PM on a Saturday by a lot, by $80 to $100 a person. Wow. And you know what happens? And this is now we have, you know, hundreds of restaurants doing this on our software called Tock. What happens is people buy the most expensive seats first and the cheapest seats first, which is exactly what you'd expect, actually. Right. Because there's some people who are price conscious and go like, wow, this is a really expensive meal, but holy cow, I don't really care if I eat at 5 o'clock on a Tuesday. Great. Like I can save $400. And then there's some people that go like, I only eat at 8 PM on Saturday.

Well, okay, that's fine. Pay a little more. Or they're attracted to the fact that it is the most expensive.

Sure, that happens too. And then there's, there's a whole bunch of tools that over time we built on top of that to sell wine pairings or sell books. You know, we sell 20 Alinea books a day on checkout with the booking process. That's a ton because we're not going to exit through the gift shop at Alinea. It's a Michelin 3-star restaurant. So, so like we would subtly have like one book like near the restrooms that people could peruse., but it didn't say like buy the book or anything like that. So typically we'd sell like 1 or 2 per night. Now on checkout, when you book Alinea, it says, hey, would you like to buy an Alinea book personalized? And 20 people a night get it. That is $400,000 in revenue a year. Yeah, that's incredible. Crazy, right? And it's amazing to me that no one did that beforehand because ultimately people can't buy what they don't see and people don't want to be upsold. Inside of a restaurant. There's nothing worse in my mind than, you know, some places that today's special is today's special and it's real and you kind of know that. But sometimes it's just the old fish, right? Sunday night.

Yeah, right.

And we all know these things. And like, I think no restaurant wants to, like, raise their hand and go, yep, that's all true. Like, we were lying to our customers and we are not going to really see you at 8:15. And so I think when I said that, like, you can look back through some articles. I remember that there's an article, I think it was in GQ, that they interviewed like a grizzled veteran, you know, and he didn't use his name and said, overbook and a bar to wait in has always worked for me. And I was just like, how does that not sound like terrible hospitality to everyone reading that? You know?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There's so, there's so many. Systems that have similar overbooking load balancing issues, right?

You look at airlines, you look at hospitality. Yep. My dentist. Yeah, I have a great dentist. They only do it via phone call or email. And so I have to play a guessing game. It's like going into a clothing store and going like, yeah, I'm looking for a blue V-neck cashmere sweater. Like, nah, don't have one. Guess again. Like, it's like, put the shit on display, man. Like, just tell me what day you could clean my teeth.

Show me, and I'll just go online and hit the button. You know, when you then debuted the ticketing option, if I'm labeling it properly, how did you prime the pump for that? Was there anything—

did you need to prime the pump to have this what seems like certainly a windfall Well, we did. Yeah, we did a video where, you know, Next Restaurant was about a restaurant that's always new, essentially. Like, what's one of the big problems of the restaurant industry? Well, when you open a new restaurant, doesn't matter what it is, people are going to show up for like 5 or 6 months. And then after that, you know, you got to struggle to like get regulars and find new audiences and all that. But people like the new quote unquote. So the other problem is, is that our own staff and chefs were the kind of people who I said to Grant one time, he cooked this amazing French dish for me at Alinea right in the middle of his sickness because I had driven down from Michigan. I've never eaten before or after in the Alinea kitchen, but he whipped up this little French dish for me of duck. And I was like, man, let's open a French restaurant someday. And he went like, eh, we'll get bored after 6 months. Then I was at one of our chef's homes on a day off Tuesday and he made, he loves Thai food and he made this amazing Thai meal. Amazing. And I was like, wow, I had no idea these guys were so versatile, you know? And then it made sense. Hey, these are passionate, amazingly talented people. And it kind of dawned on me like, let's change the restaurant every 4 months. Like, you know, let's, let's do, and then we dwelled on that for like a year thinking like it was kind of impossible to do. And then I said, well, like, let's start with a French menu. He's like, well, what does that mean? Like, there's Southern France, there's Loire Valley, there's France that's Nouvelle Cuisine, and then there's France from like like, you know, 100 years ago, totally different. And I was like, yep, Paris, 1906. I don't need to explain to you what that is. You'd want to eat that. If I just said, like, if someone said, hey, new restaurant opening, what's the menu? It's Paris, 1906. I'd go like, cool, like, I want to do a little time travel and see what that was like. And so as soon as we had like a city and a time, we instantly knew that was the idea that kept us up at night, you know, where we went like, wow, look at all these different places we can travel. And what does that restaurant look like? And how do you create a kitchen versatile enough to make all these different cuisines? And how do you make it not feel like Disneyland where one time you have a theme of Paris and the next time you have a theme of Japan? So you have to go with like an austere minimalism, you know?

Is there a particular reason why you chose the year 1906?

You know, doing some research, and I may get the exact date wrong because this was 8 years ago I did the research, but I believe the Seine flooded in 1908. Somewhere around there. And so Escoffier, like the father of French cuisine, was at the Ritz then, and that was kind of like the height of that era of cuisine. And then after the Seine flooded, that's where you got sort of your brasseries and bistros because they had to kind of go to a more casual— it opened up for more people. It took the price point down. It made it more approachable. And it wiped out dozens of these fancy restaurants. And so like rent got cheap and all of a sudden like, hey, like we're going to get this new style of restaurant. That's roughly as I recall it. Somebody's going to listen to this and tell me I'm all wrong, but that's where we landed because we could do this Escoffier menu. And boy, we argued about that too. Like they didn't have blenders then, so like electric blenders.

So I mean, we did like a—

So you wanted to mimic the production? Well, I did. Grant did not.

I remember we invited the press to a practice dinner.

And Grant's like, hey pal, you don't have to make the food. Well, partly that, but partly he was like, should we make it intentionally worse than we can? Yeah. Because the recipes were really vague. They didn't even call for salt. So in the middle of this press dinner where we had like the New York Times there, we had all sorts of these people there, which I'll never do again. That was just a genuine error. And we were still arguing out conceptually what this thing would be. And then we served dinner and we were like openly arguing, like he'd come out of the kitchen and we would openly argue about it, you know?

And he's just like—

This is at the press dinner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember he brought the soup out and it was like, I was like, oh, they must have used the actual blenders, right? Like modern blenders. 'Cause it was like the mouthfeel was like perfect. And so I was like, oh, you used the blenders, you know? And he was like, He's like, the recipe didn't call for salt either, did it? But I, should I have not used that and had it taste like shit? And, and then I was like, well, maybe you don't know that they didn't have refrigeration then either. And they packed the vegetables in salt as a desiccant. And so they were almost all pre-salted by the time they get to Paris. And that was it. Like, people were just like, these guys don't like each other at all. But, but that was, that was, that's our method. Like, that's what we did, you know? And I mean, to the day we opened, we had those arguments. And then, you know, in terms of the software, like, man, like I didn't sleep for a week. We set it up on Rackspace. It didn't work right. I'd never done anything like that before. It was like no one would help.

I think like nobody would help. No one.

When you say nobody would help, you mean competitors, potential, I don't know, potential allies, potential like these are people I got it. Why wouldn't they help?

In the case of OpenTable, they had a monopoly. Right.

So why? That makes sense to me. That makes sense. Yeah. In terms of everyone else, I think they just didn't get it. But even people within my own company thought this was a fool's errand. Grant, for sure, he will fully admit this now, thought it was a terrible idea.

Why did he think it was a terrible idea? Because it's not hospitable.

It's not hospitality. It's low touch, not high touch. Correct. And hugely the case where all of a sudden the price is different every day. Like, are people going to get that? And I just kept looking to other industries and I'm like, no one has a problem with it when they go to a baseball game. They're not sitting on the above the dugout. And then like the guy who's in the third deck back row looks down and go, oh, that guy, like he totally stole that ticket from me. They're like two different price points, you know? Yeah. And I just feel like people inherently get that without having to explain it to them.

If I may, how far in advance of the opening?

Were you, were you hoping to launch the software and when did you end up launching the software? I launched it about 7 hours before the first dinner. Holy shit. I hope to have done it 4 to 5 weeks ahead of that. It was literally a one-man operation plus me, like one programmer and me. When we launched it, Rackspace, this is 2010, I'm not saying anything bad about Rackspace. It was I didn't— I probably set it up wrong. 2010, it did not— like it's supposed to auto-load correct and self-propagate and neither happened. I was expecting— we had 17,000 people on our email list that had signed up on the website to like be notified when the bookings went on sale. And I was expecting maybe, you know, 700 show up, like should be fine. And something like 8 or 9,000 showed up and everyone just kept hitting the refresh key. And here's another fatal error. Of stupidity, and this is not the way our software is built now because we have professionals here. But basically my admin login was on the very same server as everybody's public access. Oh God. So I couldn't even go into configure it up. So I, and the good news on this is that I couldn't answer like hundreds of angry emails all at once. So I created a Facebook group for the business, which in 2010, not very many people did. And so if you go back and scroll all the way down to the beginning of that, you'll see me going like, hey, if everyone could please stop refreshing, I can sort this out. And what was really cool is that people felt part of something. They felt like, wow, holy shit, this guy is actually doing this himself. We're part of this experiment and we're on the inside of it. I got a lot of empathy from the customers, even though they were the ones that were unable to get what they wanted. And then when it finally started working, I mean, I literally not showered in 5 days. I had pizza boxes laying around. I looked like a bad movie startup thing. I had a beard. I was, you know, just strung out manic. And I remember I called Grant and it was opening day and he said, how many should I prep for? And I said, prep for full, like, because if not, we'll turn on the phones. What I didn't tell him was I didn't order the phones because I didn't want to have a failsafe. You'd burn the ships. Yeah. I, yeah, I would, I just wanted to make sure it, I forced myself to work. So we had no phone line and when it started working, I would double-click, you know, one of the functions was I could double-click on a table and if it was yellow, it was held, the public couldn't see it. I could make it available by double-clicking it, it would turn green. And then when it was sold, it would turn red. But the first time I did that to let more inventory out, up and clearly things were working, it turned red so fast I thought it was broken. And so then I went into the credit card processing and saw, oh my gosh, someone bought that that fast. And I called Grant and I said, dude, you gotta come to my house. And he was like, uh, we're opening a restaurant in like 6 hours. What's going on? I said, as the guy who helped save your life, get in a fucking taxi and come over here because I need to show you something. And he looked at me and kind of went like, what is wrong with you? Right? And, and I took him upstairs to my office and I said, I explained what I just to him, what I just explained to you. And I said, click on one of those, make it available. And he said, which one? I go, any one in the next month. And he clicked like 3 weeks out at 9:30 and it instantly turned red. And in another window I had the credit card thing up and I go, look, Mr. Jones bought that.. And he went, really? And I'm like, yep, there are, you know, 4,000 people waiting for you to do that right now. And that was the moment at which I, I was basically like, this is the best thing I've ever built because, because it was, it was, it was, it was functionally different than any way that anybody was doing this. It wasn't novel. It was just applied in a novel way. And so what was interesting is that of course the software itself sucked, but as a proof of concept, it was awesome.

Yeah. Quick question on that, if you're comfortable answering, how much money had you put into developing the software at that point?

Yeah.

Roughly. I'm going to say $115,000. Yeah.

Roughly.

So in your mind, were you completely confident it would work or And there's— it doesn't have to be A or B. There could be C, D, E, F. Or were you like, you know what, for $115K or whatever it might be, even if you budgeted for less and it overran, even if there is a 20% chance that this works, is it— is worth risking the hours and time because it will so completely transform what we're doing.

And if it fucking fails, who cares? Correct. Yeah, the latter one. Yeah. Again, it's about the asymmetric risk, right? It was also about this thing that as I dug into how Alinea ran, there's like things that you can fix and control and there's things you can't. And this was the one that, you know, I would answer phones at Alinea and I would, it was like being a therapist. People would go like, I would like to, you know, make a reservation on my anniversary, you know, 7 weeks from now on a Thursday. And you're like, I'm really sorry, sir. It's totally full. And 100% of the time they thought you were lying to them. Right. And, and, and so consequently, like, I realized that we were saying no to people more than we were saying yes. And that even when we said no in a nice way and took 10 minutes to do so, people thought that we were lying or that they weren't important to us or any of those things. And so I felt that transparency was actually more important than the actual money and the actual yield management. I felt like, like allowing people to see the entirety of the inventory was the most important thing. And same thing with, you know, the trading markets. They've moved to more and more and more transparency, more and more speed. This is true across every industry. And I just felt like, wow, this industry I found myself in was so backwards.. And so I just wanted to make the whole thing more transparent. And so even if it didn't go beyond my own restaurants, I was totally fine with that. In fact, I didn't do anything with it for 4 years and I didn't really intend on making it, you know, like a software product. I intended on fixing my own problems.

And I think often that's where, that's where good ideas come from.

Oh, super often. Yeah.

The scratching of your own itch, at least, you know, you have a market of one. Guaranteed market of 1. And I also want to point out, we were talking about asymmetric risk earlier and you're like, well, I want to stand to make 3 to 4x what I stand to lose. And if you run the math and I'm sure I'm missing a lot of subtleties here, but when you said we booked $500,000 and it cost $115,000, like we're getting very much within the ballpark of that.

But I didn't even like— I mean, well, I mean, since then it's like we've taken our margins at our restaurants from 10 to 12% to, you know, at times in good months, 20 to 25% in an industry that over the last 5 years, if you read, I give a talk called Tuesday is Not Saturday and 7 Things You Already Know But Are Doing Nothing About. It's a talk that I give to the restaurant industry. And, you know, one of the things that, that I point out in there is that there's so many obvious things that you could be doing to improve your hospitality. To improve your booking process, to get rid of food waste. But people tend to just kind of move along because it's a really chaotic environment. It's hard to make change in it because every day is game day. Like you wake up every day and 100 people are going to come through the door. And if your fishmonger doesn't show up, all you need to figure out what to do with that, you know? And so it's, it's not really about the return on that one investment at that one moment. It. It's more like, you know, 1,000 small improvements over time. And, you know, if I look back at that system that I built then compared to what we have now, you know, it's a minuscule part of what it turned into, but it was the seed of an idea, which is more important, which is, hey, let's shake things up. And then I got a great CFO who was at Bain Consulting, and he came on to like help manage the building of the project of Next. And when he started wanting to build out a business team, I was like, great, run with it. And so we've built out food cost analysis that uses Maremeco charts. It's totally different because it's visual and you give that to the chefs. It uses what charts? Maremeco. If you had— if you don't know Maremeco, if you get nothing out of this, one of the greatest visualizations in charts that you could like, you know, do in Excel or whatever, hard to do vocally, but imagine a square where each of your X-axis is the percentage of, let's say, food costs. And then each square within there is like, I don't know, meat or produce, but the whole of the square is 100%. The Y-axis is 100% of one metric and the X-axis is 100% of another. So you could kind of look at any given square and see how much that impacts the whole. It becomes like a big Lego. Building with different colors. If you give a busy chef 400 receipts and say, hey, every Friday, look through all these and, you know, figure out what we're spending too much on. Or worse, hey, your food costs last month were 36%. I need them at 32%. You can't take percentages to the bank. Let's talk about dollars. Let's see where we can save some dollars. Or the revenue could have just gone down that month for whatever reason. It's August in New York. And so it's not really a good way to look at it, but you give this person this chart, this Marimekko.

No, Marimekko.

I'm looking at his name.

Yeah, it's M-A-R-I-M-E-K-K-O chart. Is that right? Again, not good on spelling, but sure. I think so. There is a Google result, which is how to make a Marimekko chart in Excel. So I'm guessing that's probably it.

There's some YouTube videos as well. So I'll put those in the show notes for people. Man, I got to tell you, like, from a utility perspective, you show that to a person, you explain it visually. Like when you see it, it makes much more sense and they instantly get it and they look at it and they're like, oh, there's no way I spent that much on facial last month. You know, and this can be, this can be used for things outside.

Okay.

Everything.

Yeah. It's not just food, not just restaurants. Oh no, no, no. It's, it's just a great visualization of utility. And like consultants love it. And I got to tell you, I don't love consultants in general, but if I've learned anything from, from the best consultant that I've ever hired, like who is now my partner and CFO, he came up with this. And as soon as I saw it, I was like, how did this not enter my life until my 40th year? This makes no sense. You know, it's just incredibly useful. But my point is, is that we, we kind of went through everything in the restaurant and went like, well, what are the biggest spending areas that we can like analyze?. And it's true in any endeavor that you're doing, you know, there's no point looking at the dimes. If you've got something that costs $1,000, start there. And that's getting into like our thoughts on our publicity, our PR. Like we don't have a professional PR person and haven't in 14 and a half years. We don't spend money on any promotions other than social media. And then with the social media, we track all of that. We can see what our ROI is on a boosted post. We can see what our ROI is if we advertise on your podcast. You know, those are—

that's, that's why these mediums are working is because they're measurable. You know, I was looking up just as you were chatting and as I was also looking for Marimekko, a quote that I think applies, and you may certainly feel free to disagree, but applies very well to a lot of breakthroughs that you have experienced and also helped to catalyze in a lot of what you've done. And it's a quote from Charlie Munger, who, for those who don't know, you should definitely take a look at Poor Charlie's Almanac. He's the right hand, or I shouldn't even say that, he is the investing partner of Warren Buffett and fascinating, fascinating human being. But one of the quotes of his that I really return to a lot when I think I might be outsmarting myself in some way, or in general as a reminder, is, "It is remarkable how much long-term advantage people like us have gotten by trying to be consistently not stupid instead of trying to be very intelligent." Yeah. Right?

Yeah.

I mean— Because as you noted earlier, you have these practices that are being implemented by otherwise in many cases smart people who've just not taken the time to ask, why are we doing this? Why does this exist as a thing? Why does— like you pointed out, it's so obvious once you reframe it. Like you walk into a clothing store and they're like, okay, what are you looking for? Nope, sorry, guess again. It's like, that's fucking ridiculous, right?

And yet that's exactly the way it works in many other places. Once you start down that road of thinking that way, it will drive you a little nutty because you start like you can't do every business, you know? And, you know, there's a couple of things that I've got in my back pocket that I'm kind of like, you know, one day I'm going to arbitrage truffles because it's like there's an opaque market that's absurd. Here's an example. I'm going to give somebody out there— call me up because this is a real business idea. And I've been wanting to do it for years, but you know, black and white truffles, not the kind, not the chocolate ones, but the kind that the dogs dig up in France and Italy are as expensive as the most expensive drugs in the world. You order them as if it were an illegal drug. You know, of course they're perfectly legal, but you call up a truffle dealer and you go like, you know, what do they cost? Well, they're, you know, $650 a pound right now for black truffles, $1,600 for white. You try to talk them down a little bit. You make sure that you get the best quality because, hey, we're Alinea and we will ship you back the stuff we don't like and all that. And then in an unmarked box stacked with newspaper will come $20,000 of truffles. Good for like a week, by the way. Like, not like— this is not like a big supply. And it is completely opaque as a market. There is no mycologist touching these. There are knockoffs from— but not knockoffs. There's different species and quality from Australia, from Tennessee, from China, et cetera, et cetera, that they cut into it. Sounds familiar. And it was like we spend a lot of money on truffles every year and try to figure out what the US market in the fall truffle season is worth. You can't. It's exactly like publishing. You can't find numbers. And so whenever I see something like that, I'm like, someone's guarding their golden goose.

Right.

Whenever it's a black box, you're like, I feel like I am not on the best side of this trade. That's right. That's right. And that's what I did. I closed the ancillary network between the Merc and the Amex to arbitrage ETFs. To get rid of the phone brokers in the middle. That took me like a year and a half to get through the Merck and Amex powers that be. Read like most of the CFTC. So when they would tell me it's not like in the rules or not legal or whatever— CFTC, Chicago Trade Commission? No, no, no. This is the Federal Commodities Trading Commission. I see. Okay. It's like the SEC, but for commodities. I gotcha. And, you know, again, sit down and actually read that someday. Which, what's amazing is that the experts never— it's like the members of Congress who don't read the bill. And then if you ask them detailed instructions on it, they're like, oh yeah, I don't really know, but the general tenor is this or that. The people who were governing the exchanges had never read the rules. So they would just quote to me, they would just quote to me like, oh, it's against the rules. I'd be like, well, here are the 7 volumes, please show me where. If not, I'm going to do it. You know? And so similarly, like truffles, same thing. The booking for the restaurants, same thing. OpenTable had a monopoly. They wouldn't tell you who your customers were. They would sell your customers. They still do to other restaurants. You know, if you're full one night, they'll just send you down the street to a Japanese restaurant down the street. They don't care. So I wanted to get rid of all that. So I built the software for that.

Truffles, I will someday build a truffle exchange. So you, question for you, this is, this is, this is something also for, this is maybe just turning this into a therapy session slash coaching session for, for myself.

But I get attracted like a moth to the flame to puzzles.

Oh, I've got a puzzle for you. No, no, no. I don't need any more puzzles. I need no more puzzles. But there are many, many black boxes out there, right? You have truffles and like you said, it's like, all right, what's the market size of the truffle exchange at X point in time? Don't know.

Right?

Although you guys as one establishment or multiple establishments buy a lot, there might be a hundred different black boxes like that that you run into. How do you choose the black boxes worth trying to shine light on like a detective? Because the— it's going to consume energy, it's going to consume time.

How do you pick and choose which to go after? That's like the manic test, right? Like, it's like the one that bothers me the most. Like I kind of start doing, you know, and then, you know, and then it's iterative from there. Like sometimes you find yourself in a construction of your own doing that was accidental. Like all of a sudden, you know, you kind of opened your mouth and said something like the truffle thing and all of a sudden like, well, okay, I guess we're building the truffle exchange. You know, I feel like, I feel like the Boring Company is like that for Musk. Like he opened his mouth and be like, yeah, just 'Hey, dig big tunnels.' And he's got enough credibility now where some engineers went like, 'Yeah, we could build, you know, we could dig tunnels that are seismically fine.' And like, 'Hey, you work for SpaceX? Okay. Like, let's see if you could build a, dig a tunnel.' I don't think that was like a business plan, you know? And he just has a lot of credibility, you know, at this point. I think that to a certain extent, like a lot of people have a lot of ideas, they just don't dig down that rabbit hole. So, you know, I, I do some as like a hobby. I do some where I kind of have someone that I like within our company and say, well, if you really wanted to be independent and do something cool, like, here's a project, learn more about this and start researching it. You know, we have 300 and some employees on the restaurant side and about 50 on Tock. Many of them are incredibly hardworking and intelligent. And when someone says, hey, I want to learn how to be more entrepreneurial, I take one of my black boxes out and say, well, let's see if that's true. He tries. This is going to take you 6 months of independent work without any guidance, and you're going to get tired of it really fast. Or you're going to come back to me and say, hey, you know what? Like, I can't figure out the total value of the truffle market in the United States.

And I'm like, yeah, no shit. That's why I asked you to do it. Now, when you give them an assignment like this, they're like, you know what, boss, I really want to be an entrepreneur. You're like, Congratulations, I'm now giving you a project and A, it's on your time and you're not getting paid for it, or do you get paid?

Oh, no, no, no, it's not. Oh, no, no, no. I never, never, never take—

every single intern that works at our restaurants for a minute is paid. Gotcha.

So even if— so they do get paid for the black box time? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. I would never— I think one of the things that I really dislike actually are industries where they say, Hey, like, you're, you know, you're in college or whatever, you know, be an intern. And then, you know, your parents say, yeah, that's a great opportunity for you to learn something and all that. And it's like, well, you're probably not— if you're not getting paid, you're not being valued, frankly. And for me, we pay everybody. Nobody who's working here, if they're, you know, I do expect that, you know, salaried people are going to work more than just the time here. And I think that people who are passionately curious will be given a problem like that and will come up with interesting solutions to finding out what the answer may be.

And that's enough. So I want to add some sort of commentary on the question that I asked, which is I think it's incredible that you do pay them for that independent research, which is also acting as entrepreneurial training/filtering for them. But I wouldn't have judged you harshly at all if you said, "No, that's on their own time." And the reason I say that is that if you are going to be investigating black boxes as an entrepreneur, there are going to be periods of time where you are doing it in the evenings, you're doing it on the weekends, you are doing it without a clear road to immediate cash flow, right? So I wouldn't have judged you if you said, you know what, I am paying them full-time for their normal job, but if they want to tackle one of these black boxes, that's considered extracurricular time.

Uh, so I wouldn't have judged you harshly if you had responded in the negative on that? Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess, you know, to back up a little bit, like when there are people who I don't know who do not work for our company and they call me up and say, hey, I've got this idea for XYZ or whatever, and it's intriguing enough, I will, I will pose some more difficult questions, but they're not working for me. You know what I mean? Like there's a guy who brought me a food product that I, you know, about a year ago, and it was interesting but not super compelling. And I said, hey, if you did these 5 things, it would be a lot more compelling for me to be involved and to help with it and all that. And yesterday I got a box in the mail and he had done not only the 5 things I said, but said, hey, when I started doing those, these 7 other things popped up. Here's where the product is. Here's the people we signed. Here's the airline we just signed to carry the product. And I would love to have you still involved, even though we're so much farther down the road than I thought it'd be a year later. That's super cool. Like, I didn't pay that guy, obviously, but there's a person who's truly entrepreneurial, right? And did this on his own time. But if they're working here, if they work for the Alinea Group, if they work for Toc, like, for sure, they're, you know, you could take time during your day, like, doing your normal business. That's a project that we're working on. And, you know, we also try not to have such harshly defined roles. Not within the restaurant. Like, look, if you're a server, if you're a captain, if you're a line cook, you're probably not working on my truffle project. Yeah, just because, like, it's— you don't have to. I mean, realistically, you know, that's not— that's— but on the business side, we certainly have people who, who work in roles as like a lawyer or an analyst or something like that who want to get involved with our publishing project or who want to get involved with the truffle project or whatever it may be. And I'm happy to pull them in and try to include them. And like you said, you used a word as an entrepreneurial filter.

I would say 95% of the time people filter themselves out. Right. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, they're going to self-select or self-select out. Yeah. Are there any particular books or resources that you've found useful on hiring or managing?

God, if you found one, let me know. No, I— hiring is so hard. I think it's the hardest of all things to do. And I think my style of interviewing people is totally different than it was 20 years ago. We used the word self-selecting just a moment ago, and it's exactly what I do. I kind of bring people in, I let them know what I'm about, what the company's about. They've probably already been interviewed by other people before they, they get to me. And so at that point, I let them know, like, what are the upsides and downsides of working here, you know? And I kind of let them know what the expectations are. And I, I tell them, like, people self-select into a job and you don't want to come here if you're going to fail because that would be terrible. And I don't want you to come here and fail because that would be a waste of my time and resources and would also feel awful. It's never good to let go of someone. Feels terrible. So let's see if you are self-selecting in. What do you want to know? Like, I'll be completely transparent about what's good, what's bad, what's good about working for me personally. The fact that maybe you'll never see me again. You know, I mean, it's like a big enough organization where, you know, there are definitely people working here who, who I don't know at all. But people tend to join organizations where they want to work. And so I try to make that process, I try to make them be able to say no easier than they can say yes. What would be some examples of how you do that? You know, I kind of judge the person by what their pain points are. And so if someone says like, you know, one of the things I like to ask, you know, which it kind of resonates probably with you, as I say, here were the last 5 books you read. And I got to tell you, that's a really hard question to answer because even if you're a voracious reader, you remember like a book from 2 years ago, but you can't remember the one you read 2 months ago sometimes. Totally. At least I can't, you know. And so that is a great filter on people because a couple of things will happen. One, the person who's a voracious reader will go like, oh my God, I swear to God, I read like 20 books this year. Let's see. And they will really start going, oh, I read one like 3 months ago that was this and it was about that. You could tell that they're intellectually curious and read a lot. You'll also get a person who goes, look, I haven't read a book in 20 years, but every night I go home and I do woodworking and that's my outlet. Like that's where I focus. That's my Zen moment. And that's a valid answer to that question too. You know, like you don't have to be a reader. Some people will just lie through their teeth and they'll answer what they I think is the smart answer to that question.

And I don't want that person there. I read War and Peace and then I went to the problems of philosophy and—

Yes, yes, yes. Right.

And then The 4-Hour Workweek. Right. So, so definitely not the right answer. Right. So there's that. And I ask that kind of question, but then like things like, do you enjoy writing? One of my things is like, if someone doesn't like to write, when people ask what I do for a living, I say I'm a writer. And they go like, oh, you've written a couple books. And I go, no, no, no. I read about 400 emails a day. And that skill is hugely important right now. If someone doesn't like to write, they're not going to want to work for me because when they send out an email and I am CC'd on it and it isn't a well-thought-out little thing, the answer coming back is like, "Hey, here's 4 ways to improve this." And at some point it'll be like, "Really? You did that same mistake again?" it comes off kind of harsh in email, you know? And so if you're the kind of person that doesn't take feedback well or doesn't want to learn, like, man, I don't— I, I'm lacking patience for that at this point in my life. And I let them know that. And some people, like, look at you and just go like, yeah, dude, I don't want to work there. More than I would think, which is great. Yeah, simplifies matters. Yeah. And it's not— it's not— it's done with a smile, you know? I'm not, like, trying to, like, terrorize people when they come in an interview.. And then there's some people that go like, awesome, that's exactly what I want. You know, we have everything from like, you know, double PhD engineers to people who've never, you know, attended university for a minute, but they've, they've self-selected into an organization that people ask a lot of questions. I love that. Like I can be in a room and come up with an idea and everyone there will just be like, well, that's a great idea. There's no way we're going to be able to do that in the next 6 months.

Because that's not in our capacity at our size right now. I think a question on a lot of people's minds and a pain point for most people listening will be email. So you seem to be at least confident in your treatment of email. 400 is a lot of email. Do you have any particular commandments, dos, do-nots, times you check, things you check first, Any types of systems or approaches that allow you to maintain a degree of sanity with the amount of email that you must receive?

You're going to hate this answer, Tim. I am terrible at it. It used to be not so long ago that I personally replied to absolutely every single email that came in. Myself, and I used to have an auto sign that basically was like, if I don't reply to you within 5 minutes, I'm dead or asleep. And it's the opposite of everything that you stand for. I know that. It's like I was listening to Jason Fried. So Jason Fried's a friend. I was listening to his podcast with you and I don't get it at all. Like I am not, like I would love nothing more than to rework or to not work, work 4-day weeks or to have 6-week projects and all the stuff that he espouses. He's a friend, he's an investor in one of my businesses, but man, I don't, that's not how I function at all. And I weirdly think that he misses cause and effect a little bit. Like he has a very successful company and that's the cause that allows the effect, which is the ability to manage your time really well. I live really paranoid. I'm more comfortable that way. And also I kind of feel like a weird moral responsibility to reply to the people who've taken their time out of their day to write us a note, you know, even if it's not like critical business for me. And one of the things I did for about 10 years that I loved doing when we first started Linear is that I would have Google Alerts set up and I would find some blog, you know, that only like some woman and her mother read, you know, and I would reply personally, like say, wow, thank you for the great write-up of Lynya. And they would be kind of mind-blown that I found it and, and you know, all that. I treated email that way for a long period of time. Unfortunately, now I, I can't quite do that. So I do have a bunch of filters and whatnot, but I didn't even set them up. My business partner, Brian Fitzpatrick, who used to be the head of Google Chicago, and he's my he runs the engineering team, he's the CTO of Toc. He kind of said like, dude, you're slipping, man. Like, you know, you need to create some filters and get some stuff that's directly to you. So he went into my Gmail accounts and kind of forced the issue for me. So now I can't quite do that. I do wake up in the morning and look at sort of our bazillion social media messages and whatnot, kind of pick a random one and just answer it. Like, I want to be involved in knowing what our customers are asking, what they're doing, what they're saying, what they're replying. Anything that's a complaint actually gets brought directly via email to a complaint tracker that me and Grant see. And so luckily there aren't that many of those, but anytime you serve 5 or 6,000 people a week, you're going to get, you know, some something going wrong. But man, I'm terrible at it, honestly. And I've tried. I will tell you a funny thing is that when I go away on vacation, I do try to concoct a— I basically say like, look, I'm going to be in a mountain or on a boat or whatever, and I'm not going to be able to reply. And so I would make these elaborate stories up almost as like a fun piece of art project as to why I couldn't do it. And so one year, every year, every time I went away, I basically said like, I'm going to visit a panda that I adopted and I'm going back to Chicago. And it ended the year around Christmas time when I went on break. With a picture of a baby panda at the end and a really kind of mediocre Photoshop job of me standing there with the penis. And the Chicago Tribune called me up like 3 days later going, you know, is it going to the Lincoln Park Zoo? Like, and I was like, no, dear God, it's not. And the following, I hope there is no panda. That's what I wrote back though. That was my entire reply to that. And then the following year I said like, I like to talk, as you might be able to tell. And so everyone who knows me knows that I can just go on and on. And so I said I was going to a combination of a tantric sex retreat and silence retreat for 8 days to explore my both inner and outer self. And then, you know, with some elaborate— this is your out-of-office reply. That's my out-of-office reply. Anybody would get that, right? And so I thought that was really funny. And then about 2 years later, I bumped into some guy who worked for a very big corporation. And they wanted to do some work with the group and it was like kind of a consulting project, very lucrative. And he was looking at me really funny, you know? And I said like, what's up? And he said, well, you know, I really wish we had worked together, but you know, then you went to that sex retreat and I just couldn't, I just couldn't get it past everybody. And I was just like, I was looking at him going like, what are you talking about? And then I remembered like 4 years earlier, my out of, my out of office reply. And I told him like that it was kind of a joke, like the panda, and he did not find any humor in it. And I did. I thought it was hilarious. Even though we lost the business, I thought it was really funny.

So if you ever get a really unusual out-of-office reply from me, it's fiction, probably.

I love that.

I mean, if you're serious all the time, you're never going to get the actual serious work done. You're going to burn out before that ever happens. I also want to underscore one thing, and then I want to ask you about a black box that you and I have talked about quite a bit, which is publishing. The fact that you pick a message to reply to, even if it's one, is really important. And I've noticed this certainly with the audience that I have, listeners, readers, et cetera. It is not physically possible for me to reply to everyone. It would also be anathema to everything that I'm espousing in many of the books. But I do want to demonstrate that I am listening. And I think that it goes a really long way, even if you do not personally reply to people, if you are able to prove that you're paying attention. And that seems to resolve a lot, or at least act as a salve for people out there who very seldom feel heard, which does not always necessitate a response. So I just wanted to point out that it might seem like a drop in the ocean, but it actually has much more further-reaching implications when you do what you were describing.

Yeah, I, I feel like it's genuine. First of all, I'm always curious, what are people writing about to the restaurants? What are they writing about to me? My LinkedIn profile, basically, like, I don't really read LinkedIn at all. I keep it. I think it's important to have it, but I don't ever read the messages on there. But in my bio, it basically says, if you can find my email address, I will, and cite this, I will reply to you. And so that gets rid of all of the marketing crap. Comes in. But every now and then I get like, you know, a subject line to the email address that's on there that says basically like, hey, via your LinkedIn bio, and I'll read that and reply. And it just shows me that like, hey, there's an actual human on the other line. It's not just a marketing thing. And B, like they really, really do have something that they want to talk about. And so, you know, it's like little things like that are kind of puzzle filters, I guess, that I call them. Where I just create a little bit of a barrier. And if you're really into it and you really want to talk to me, you can pretty much find me pretty easily.

I'm not that hidden. Yeah. And the detail is really important here. The mini hurdle. I have a friend, I'm not going to mention by name because he'll get deluged, but he is a very, very successful author and journalist. And when he is hiring for different positions, part-time or full-time, At the bottom of the job description on a job site or wherever it might be, in small print at the very bottom, it will say, do not send a message on this platform. Do not send an email, even though email addresses are given earlier. Call this number and leave a voicemail answering the following things. And automatically he takes the pool of 1,000 people who are going to do the wrong thing and finds the 10 people who are actually paying attention. Yep.

100%.

So publishing, what is— we didn't really, we didn't really talk much about it, but can you give a little bit, just a tiny bit of background on the aviary and then some of your related publishing investigations, which I think is, is not, I think is not an inappropriate word.

If you could give people a little bit of context. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to back up before the aviary just a little bit and just go like, you know, for a chef, doing a cookbook is something that they dream about if they're a serious chef from the time they're 15. You know, just like if you're a basketball player, you want to make the NBA, or, you know, if you're a runner, you want to be in the Olympics or whatever. Like, to grant to a bunch of chefs having their own ideas in a physical, beautiful cookbook is kind of a holy grail for them. It's very sacred. And what was interesting is that just before Grant was sick, we started getting a lot of publishing offers, and the natural inclination was to go to what he knew, which was Artisan Press, which published The French Laundry Book, which is one of the best-selling high-end cookbooks ever. And it's certainly beautiful. It was very revolutionary at its time, I think it was published in about '98, '99, something like that. And the typical publishing deal, like, kind of came into us, which was great that they were coming in and it was $250,000 to $300,000. And they would basically say, well, out of that you're going to pay for the designer and the photographer and you need like a 30-day photo shoot. And, you know, here are the guidelines for how many photos you want in the book and, you know, to keep costs down and this and that. And I kind of looked at all of that and all of the offers came in within about 10% of each other, which immediately, you know, the hair on the back of my neck, like the spidey sense, the spidey sense starts telling me that something back there is pricing this in an unusual way. And then I started going like, oh, this is actually like the music industry. Very much so. Because I knew, I knew people in bands. That would get signed to a record label back in the day and they would get a quarter million dollar advance. You know, shit, that seems like a lot of money, right? And then all of a sudden all your studio time comes out of that and you don't recoup another dime until you've sold, you know, X number of records or CDs or in this case books. And then in the, in the contract, it actually said, and the restaurant guarantees that they will buy 2,500 books at half of retail price. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's, you know, you're looking at something like $80,000 right there that goes right back to them in essence. Like, and then I kind of went like, well, I wonder what a book costs to print. And I mean, I just called, I asked them like, well, how much is this book going to cost to print? Well, I don't really know. And so what they would do is that they would always have layers of people. So that they said, well, that's not what I do. Like, I am the person that does this. The lawyers give the contract, the printer does the printing. Like, I— there's always plausible deniability or plausible ignorance. Yes. Willful plausible ignorance. Yeah. And, and so I, I do what I start doing. I'm like, well, let's just Google that up and see what it costs to print a book or how many copies of the French Laundry book sold. How many copies of 50 other books that we wanted to emulate or that we, that we thought were well done sold. And man, it's like asking for like, you know, keys to the Vatican or something when you call a publisher and ask them that. They— I'm sure you know this, right? You probably know now because you've, you've been so entrenched in the industry, like, you know, your numbers and you might know that of some of your colleagues and friends, right? But if you wanted to actually do a meaningful comparison across the industry, it's almost impossible to do it, even though that there's a company that does that. Then you start trying to reverse engineer it and you go to the New York Times, which you can go to the New York Times website and just look at how is the New York Times bestseller list created. And on their own site, they say it's a compendium of known publishers, like publishing houses, as well as these like top 50 retailers, you know, back in the day. And it's a gameable system, right? The way that publishers want to do it is that they want to ship out all the books at the same time because that's how they're counted for the New York Times bestseller list and stuff.

I should also note it's not only gameable, but it's also conversely highly subjective within the New York Times. So there's a lot of wiggle room. In other words, it is not like the Olympics where you're like, okay, clear gold, silver, bronze video replay.

We know exactly how this was tabulated. So the more that we dug, the more that we got like, curious, like more and more curious, a little bit angry actually. And but Grant was weirdly angry at me because he's going like, well, dude, like, why do you care? Like, you know, it's like I've been wanting this since I was 15. And I was like, well, look, if this is our budget, it's not going to be the book you want. It's not going to be as good as you want it to be because we're not going to be able to spend 6 months doing the photography. We're not going to be able to get great pages. We're not going to be able to get a picture of every dish. Like, if— what do people cook in a cookbook? Well, they tend to cook those pages where they see a picture of the final dish because, you know what, it looks delicious. You know what it's supposed to look like. You got something to emulate at least, right? And so when we did the specs for the book, I had one of the best publishers in America say, if you do that book, there's no way you sell more than 5,000 of them. No way. And no one's going to publish it. And you can't use metric and you can't use a gram scale and you can't have that font and you can't have those pictures in full bleed and it'll cost way too much to print. And so it took about a month and a half before I got lucky and I called a print broker who had actually printed, you know, brokered the print job of one of the famous books. And I was expecting that the book retailed for $60, it would cost like 15 to print, 20. I didn't know anything about it. And when he told me it was like $2.23 per book to print per 30,000, you know, 30,000 copy run, I went, no way, like that. And he went, well, it's probably less now. Like he thought I meant it was like too much. And instantaneously I went, oh shit, everything makes sense. And when I would call publishers and tell them this, They would go, oh yeah, but look, like we did 40 different prints last, you know, 40 different books last year. Only 5 of them did well. And I'm like, that's your problem, man. Like, I know what we're going to sell well. I don't really give a shit if you lost 35% of the time and need to spread your portfolio risk. I'm the one you're spreading it on. Right? So we decided with the Alinea book, we put together like 20 pages and Martin made this beautiful stainless steel bracketing system and we shipped it out to 8 different publishers we liked, 2 of which were art houses that had never done a cookbook. And they all came back and, and same, all the usual criticism except for Aaron Weiner at 10 Speed Press. Yeah. Smart, smart, smart guy, by the way. Yeah. And he basically said, I'm going to make you an unusual offer. No advance at all. And we can negotiate. Essentially, we'll just be the distributor and we'll negotiate out like what that looks like and we'll help you with the printing. We'll help you with the editing, which we're both really good at. And within 10 minutes, we had struck a deal whereby any of the books that we bought or sold for ourselves, for our restaurant, we paid actual printing costs, not wholesale, actual printing costs. Anything that they sold and distributed, through their channels, they would get about 27% of the sale price, which means that we got 73% of that. These are like state secrets, right? Like nobody tells this stuff. And so for years I was walking around with this knowledge where if we sold 100,000 books, say that would be the equivalent of selling like 500,000 books on any other deal. And we got to control the quality of it. And we won both the James Beard Award for best cooking from a professional point of view, best cookbook of the year. And we won, I say we, Martin and, and Laura Kastner won the Communication Arts Award where if you're a designer, that's like their annual is like, that's like getting the Oscar, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Similarly for people who don't know, I mean, the James Beard Awards are also very much like the Oscars. Yeah. So So we felt like really vindicated on that. The book still sells. This is 8 years later. We still sell 7,000 to 8,000 copies a year. And when we did the Aviary, which is our bar, that's a non-bar that we talked about earlier, you know, we started getting all of the same offers again. And this time it was really easy to go like, ha, just kind of like, go like, oh, that's cute. Like, you know, and so I should add that we did I wrote a book of Grant and I wrote his memoir together that we didn't use a ghostwriter. We wrote it ourselves called Life on the Line. And for that one, we did a traditional book deal, but after our agent kind of got it halfway, I got on a plane, flew out there, and then brokered the deal myself. And I got a giant multiple of the highest bid by doing essentially a reverse Dutch auction.

Starting at a really high price and working my way downward.

Can you explain to people just briefly what that is? Yeah.

Yeah.

So basically, like, here, I'll do this. Like, let's say— so I think one of the great problems, like, to solve one of the black boxes is the agency problem. Let's say you want to sell your house, you put it on the market, and the agent's going to get, I don't know, 4 to 5% of the sale price. That's a lot for something that's like your most biggest investment in your life. But they kind of say, like, they control the information, they control the MLS, all that. Will they, if they're the seller's agent, get the highest price for you? And the answer is almost certainly not, because they— let's say a house is going to sell for $500,000. They're going to get 4% of that. That's $20,000. If they get $490,000, it's almost no difference to them. $400 difference. But if they lose the deal over that last $10,000, it's a lot. So they want to price a home so that it sells quickly so that they can keep their deal flow going. And they don't really care about maximizing their last dollar. Whereas for you, that last dollar is actually like $9,600. It's a lot more money. So what I do whenever I've sold real estate is that I figure out what the intrinsic value is of the house, like what's the bare minimum that I'd be willing to sell it for. And I price it just slightly higher than that. And I tell all the agents in the whole town, I will pay you 50% of everything over 10% higher than that. And they all say, oh, that's against the real estate ethics code, or I would never do that deal because it would subvert all my other deals or whatever. And then what happens is 2 days later you get like a dozen phone calls and they've priced it like 40% higher and like it sells in 2 days. Yeah, that's because now they're actually working for you, right? Well, similarly, I went into that publishing negotiation and I was kind of like, By the way, the agent, it's probably look up, well, she's great, like great person. I don't think she even knows that that's what was happening. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't even think she, she just knows that like, hey, she was brought up in this, in this industry for this company and that's the way it works. And she would for sure dispute everything I just said. She would say, I always try to get the highest price, but I went in and I just went like, look, I'm not going to spend my time doing this for X. So I need 4 times that. And she was like, there's no way you'll ever get that. You've never written a book before. I said, well, we did the Alinea book. She said, that's a cookbook. Doesn't count. These are words. So I went to the publishers that all bid on it and I just got 'em all on a conference call and just started at a really high price. And every couple seconds I went down $10,000 and then one of 'em blinked and bought it. What was the— and that's a great way. That's a great method of price discovery. If you think about it, most auctions, even like you go to a charity event or whatever, they start low and they try to get interest going high. It's often the case that if they start really, really high and start going down, people start going like, oh my God, someone's going to say something like, I would pay that. Someone else must as well. They could be off by a factor of 30% and they'll never even know it because there's only one bid that ever happened.

So no one knows how off they are. Now, on that phone call where you're like, hey guys, would love to get you on the phone. And then publisher, right away. Well, yeah.

So I guess my question is, did they know that they were signing up for a Mexican standoff slash? Yes, they did. Oh, they did. They did. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I went and met with them all personally, kind of said, or if you're like, John, I'd love to get you on the phone. And that's like, all right, congratulations, guys. Yeah. You can't, you can't ambush people to a Mexican standoff. Yeah. You can't do that. Okay. I mean, you could, it might be fun, but I didn't do that. All right. I wouldn't talk I created enticement. I sold on my ability to actually do it. It was a bit like doing the no phones with the software. I was like, well, if I get a really big contract, I'll have to figure out how to write a book and that'll be a lot of pressure. So I did that and I wrote it and I turned it in on time, which apparently no one does. Very, very rare. Yeah. But yeah, because we sent it to them on the day it was due. They went, what's this?

And I'm like, that's the manuscript. Yeah. And they went, oh, that's cute. Well, it's kind of like showing up at the restaurant on time as a diner and then being seated at the appointed Apparently very rare. It's just this like open, open lie. Do you turn your books in on time? I do actually. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, I do turn my books in on time and we could get into that separate time. I just want to ask you a question. I do.

I do not turn them in at the expected length, but a little longer perhaps. Yeah, I do tend to turn them in on time. I believe that. So what happened with the aviary is that we basically couldn't figure out how to do another book because the Alinea book was such a project and Martin was onto other things and we didn't want to do it traditionally. And I didn't know anyone who could do what we wanted to do. And then there was this guy, Alan Hamburger, and boy, if you get nothing else from this whole talk and you've made it this far, go see, go Google Alan and Alinea. Alan is a procedural effects artist. He worked at Weta Studios on all the Hobbit movies doing like hair and water and things like that. So he writes the physics that then makes the, makes the magic, right? And then, uh, he worked at Pixar and while he was at Pixar and his wife, um, Sarah worked at Industrial Light and Magic as the graphics designer, he was given by Sarah a copy of the Alinea book. Book to go full circle and became just fascinated with it. Was not a cook, didn't know how to cook, and did the Julie and Julia thing. He spent 5 years not only cooking his way through the entire book, but also would do things like, well, I don't know where to get this plate, and I've always wanted to learn how to fire porcelain. Allen, for people wondering, is A-L-L-E-N. There are also videos of Allen and Alinea. Yeah. And he's an autodidact. Like, this guy learns and learns and learns and is the kind of person that goes to the black box and goes, I'm going to learn how to forge knives and I'm going to learn how to fire porcelain. And by the way, I'm going to cook everything in there and I'm going to take pictures of it. I'm going to make a book documenting that. And when he asked if he could use— like, we had kind of a little email relationship and he came out to Alinea once to ask Grant some questions about how to make something because it wasn't working. And when Grant kind of threw up his arms and go, well, the book might be wrong. Like Alan's worldview was shattered. It was like the Bible. And he was kind of like, what do you mean it could be wrong? He goes, well, you know, we did have some errata in there. Like, I mean, we documented hundreds of recipes. It could be wrong. And at that point, Alan, like his mentality changed. It's in the video. And we got to know him and I got to know him. And when he sent me the book, it wasn't what I was expecting. I was expecting like a homegrown book. And what I got was, you know, a 400-page beautifully, beautifully illustrated, beautifully written book about a person's journey of learning. And it was called The Alinea Project. And I had no, no idea that he had done anything like this. And so suddenly I thought to myself immediately, and it's in the intro to the aviary book, I texted him and said, I said, "Holy shit, you're crazy. And I have ideas." And after waiting for 4 or 5 years to do a book on the aviary, I immediately was like, "This is the guy to do the book. Now I need to lure him out of Pixar, which is about the best place to work in the world." And then I found out his wife worked at Industrial Light Magic and she did all the graphic design. And I was like, "This is perfect. You guys need to quit your jobs and move to Chicago." They flew out. We had some conversations about what they might look like. It was very much a partnership. They would have equity in the book. We would have creative freedom to do it exactly the way we wanted. We knew more about the printing and the bidding and all of that. So I wasn't worried about the economics of it anymore. I was worried about trying to make something really awesome. And right as they were about to say yes, they found out they were going to have a baby. So they called me up one day and said, Oh my God. Like, and I was like, oh, they got cold feet. Oh no. And they said, you know, we're pregnant. We're going to have a baby. And I said, okay, well, we're going to wait a year because there's no way in the world I'm letting you move out of your comfort zone and have a child and have that change of life. And they thought I was like punting on them just because, like in a discriminatory way. I said, nope, we're not going to do this with anyone else. We'll wait as long as it takes. And about a year and a half later, they moved to Chicago.. And we spent the last year and a half, set up a studio of our own, spent the last year and a half doing this book, did a Kickstarter to just essentially raise awareness for it. We raised almost $500,000 in the Kickstarter. We've sold about another $300,000 of books since then. It comes out in October.

You can go to thealiniabook.com.

And the coolest part of that website is that if you look at the Alinia book— oh, sorry, theaviarybook.com. All right. Oh, great, Nick. Yeah. Very lead, Nick. Very lead. Genius marketing right there. So yeah, theaviarybook.com. But if you— the coolest part of that is, other than of course your ability to buy said book, is Alan kept the blog on there called Our Progress. And in it, he details every single aspect of what it takes to make a book like this, right down to line screens and compositing photos of, you know, like one of the things that every single book publisher told me is that you can't sell a cocktail book for more than $30. There's no market for it. And you don't need pictures because it's just liquid in a glass. And I think we blew that out of the water with what the book looks like. I think that because certain things like fire are really hard to photograph, there's a great picture in there of this one cocktail where we, we spray some anise and we light it on fire and it creates an aroma into the bowl that it's served in. It's called Loaded to the Gunwalls. It's a Batavia Rock cocktail.. And that took a composite of 18 different photographs. And so he breaks down the photography techniques and also the New York Times bestseller list. And I showed him like how, you know, Google target marketing works and Facebook ads work and all that. And all of a sudden he went, holy shit, I had no idea you could do this. So we are going completely without a distributor or publisher at this time. And I think we're going to set a record, man. I don't know.

I mean, they're completely delusional.

It wouldn't surprise me if we sold 500,000 of these in the next 2 or 3 years.

And it's not a $9.95 book either, which it shouldn't be, right? I mean, this is— No, it's $85.

We've invested close to $1 million all the way in around it, and it looks like it, I think. I hope.

Yeah. From what I've seen, it looks like it would cost more than that. Yeah. Well, we did it all ourselves too. It's really like a 5-person project. It's deep enough that if a professional gets it, they're going to learn a lot. But I'd say about 35-40% of it can be done at home because unlike the Alinea book where, hey, you got to go out and buy duck, like, you know, in your local grocery, you might not have this kind of duck or whatever. If you need some Flor de Cana rum or, you know, a certain kind of tequila or whatever, you just go to your local liquor store.

It's exactly the same thing that we use. You know, that product is universal. I read somewhere that I don't think is taking us too far afield. I read somewhere that you consider yourself a tequila guy.

Guy, or at least in part a tequila guy. Do you have any favorite tequilas or concoctions? Well, there's— so I just— I'm going to do a little video promo for, for the book that we just filmed last week, where essentially I work with Eric Jeffers, who's one of our bartenders in the office, which is our little speakeasy below the aviary, which is amazing. If people have the opportunity, they should check it out. It's basically Grant just said, hey, everything upstairs, people are going to think it's a line of smoke and mirrors. We need to prove we can make a real cocktail. Cocktail. So one of the foundational cocktails for me is a daiquiri. It's, I say, 3 ingredients and a million ways to fuck it up. You know, it's just lime, sugar, and rum. That's all it is. And yet, like most bars you go into will make a terrible daiquiri or they'll blend it or blah, blah, blah, right? But a great daiquiri is really, really transformative. So did a video on that. And then I always make a half mezcal margarita. That's my, favorite drink. All I'm doing is I'm taking some reposado and a little bit of mezcal in equal weights, along with some, you know, Grand Marnier or Cointreau equivalent and lime and simple syrup. That's it. That's all there is to it, man. I love simple stuff like that. And then we have a whole section in the book on old whiskeys, dusty bottles, old gins. Like there's a growing movement to kind of rediscover some of the distilleries in America that were really, really, really great. That don't exist anymore that were more artisanal at the time. You can still find those bottles around. It's a little bit easier than like, you know, someone like wine collecting or something like that. Man, it's like an endlessly fascinating thing. I don't consider myself a cocktail person. 10 years ago, I really loved wine. I felt like from a health perspective, it was better as well. But just like anything else, if you have a well-constructed cocktail and something of high quality, it's an additive thing. Like you can have it in a meal and it can make the meal better, you know, whereas it's like, you know, a vodka tonic is just boozing and it's just getting drunk. That's not what we're trying to do here. We're trying to make things that are—

it's really a culinary approach to cocktails. It's endlessly fascinating, just like anything else in this world. I would also say, just contrasting, say, someone who wants to recreate something from Alinea, which you certainly could do. I mean, Alan proved that. With something from the Aviary, there is also a tremendous amount of theater and presentation dynamism that you can create with cocktails that does not have to be super expensive or super complicated.

I mean, certainly you guys are able to go as complex as you want to go, which is stunning. And I've spent time at the Aviary. You can easily make some ice with Peychaud's bitters in it or something like that. And then as the ice melts in the cocktail, it's going to change the flavor and it's going to look really cool too. Doing some of these things at home is not hard. I did a dinner party once where it was like, you know, a cocktail party, probably had 40 people at my house and each room in my house had all of the ingredients for the cocktail and then little instructions on how to make it themselves. So that took away the need for a bartender because they're terrible anyway. Anyone that you bring in and you know that you cater or something like that. And the other cool thing is that people got really into it. They went like, oh, like, and now I know how to make an Old Fashioned. Now I know how to make a Manhattan. The one that I discovered that party was a Frisco Sour, had like Benedictine whiskey and lemon, you know, it was really delicious.

So it can be more than just like a strong cocktail. It can be really delicate and interesting. And people can learn all about this at theaviarybook.com. Is that right? Right.

Yep.

Well, Nick, I have two rapid-fire questions that are unrelated, and then I think we're going to bring this neat and tidy round one podcast to a close. But we've talked about books. Everybody should not only check out the aviary book, but also if they have a chance, go to the aviary. It is tremendous. And you can also get some delicious bites and food, at least last time I was there, still can at the Aviary. So it is a bit of a— I hesitate to call it a workaround, but you guys have some very, very popular establishments. If you want to sample the food, this is also a great way to do it. And the drinks are just incredible. So it's a real sort of destination that makes a trip to Chicago worth it in and of itself. So I would recommend not only checking out the book, but also checking about a lot of what you guys are up to. Aside from that, books you have gifted the most to other people outside of those that you've made yourself.

What are the books that you've gifted the most to other people? Yeah, I named one of them already, The Fool by Randomness. Almost everyone in my office is forced to read that, you know, and I've definitely given that away. Boy, that's a tricky one because just like I said, I can't remember their books very well, but that's certainly probably number one on a business side of things. And then the, on the other side, I tend to give away what I would call vintage art books. So it's not a book people can buy. I'm sorry to say, but occasionally I'll be at like a used bookstore and I'll find some of these great old art books and I buy a few of them. And then when I want to thank someone for something, I send them that. Perigordations of an Epicurean, something like that. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, like I bought, like when I give someone something, I try to make it something that, and I really want to make it a great gift. I try to get it something that you can't buy. And so I bought an old typewriter and when I write a thank you note, I type it up on the old typewriter and it is the most confounding thing to people. No, because they look at it and they go, how did you do that? I'm like, on a 1922 typewriter. It's like a personal artisanal thing. But I know that that's not what you're getting at. No, no, no. I can't, I can't really think of, I can't really think of like the number one. I'm sure once we, we end this, I'll immediately think of it.

And if I do, I'll send it to you so you can link to it. I think the answer, the answer is more interesting with the typewriter. So I think what I'm getting at was whatever you just offered.

So that's perfect.

And if you come up with anything else, We can put it in the show notes. This next one can be tough at times for folks, but the billboard question. So metaphorically speaking, non-commercial, no advertising, but if you could get a word, a quote, a sentence, a question up on a billboard to transmit something to millions or billions of people, does anything come to mind that you might put on that billboard?

I don't know why this came to mind, but the word would be pause. Hmm. I have no idea why that came to mind, but I think in talking through this whole thing, you know, it's, you kept asking me like, why are you digging this black box or whatever? Or it'd be like curiosity. Like, and I think those are two, I'm thinking of those in the same way. I'm not saying pause, like stop. I'm saying think, right? And so I think, you know, the hallmark of the people that I like like as friends the best, what we try to instill in our kids, and the reason I like my wife so much and all that is that intellectual curiosity is everything. And so I don't know, how do you get that on a billboard? I think pause or be curious or something like that.

I know it's cliché, but I think that's the thread that ties everything together. Yeah, you do pause a lot, even though on a macro level you seem to be moving at hyperspeed a lot of the time, there are a lot of pauses built into that speed, if that makes sense. From what I've noticed. I mean, you were—

you are simultaneously one of the craziest fuckers I know and least craziest fuckers I know, if that makes sense.

That's a great compliment. Thank you. I'll take it. I'll take it. And where can people find you? I know you have, of course, thealeniagroup.com. You have exploretalk.com, theaviarybook.com, which is the sort of the most timely for people to check out right now.

If people want to say hello or follow you on social, where are the best places, best handles for that? Yep. Instagram, which is @nkokonas, K-O-K-O-N-A-S, and Twitter is @NickKokonas, N-I-C-K. And hey, it's all Googleable, right? Like, so beyond that, if you could figure out my email address, I'll probably answer.

Although given the reach of your podcast, perhaps I will be inundated.

It might take a while. Yeah, that might be a hug of death situation, but we will—

that's okay.

TBD.

It's a good problem to have, I suppose. Good problem to have. Nick, this was a blast. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you, Tim. And many more conversations to be had.

This, I think another trip to Chicago may be in order soon.

I was going to say, I hope we see you here soon. I know I need to get back. And to everybody listening, we've made mention of the show notes, links to everything we've discussed. Which you will be able to find at tim.blog/podcast, as with this episode and certainly every other episode. And until next time, thank you so much for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1.5 and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. 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