Speak Up Without Shrinking with Jamie Kern Lima

Today I have a very special guest here on the podcast. Her name is Jamie Kern Lima. You probably have heard of her name. She is the founder of IT Cosmetics, which later sold to L'Oréal, and she is somebody that you're gonna get so many wonderful nuggets from. She's written two times, I think twice, Jamie, now, uh, New York bestselling books. The latest one is Worthy. It's an amazing book. I have it here on my shelf. And she's just an overall amazing person, business leader, also guest on Shark Tank. She's incredible. Jamie, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Jefferson, honored to be here with you, and congratulations on everything. As a friend, it's been really fun to cheer you on.

Thank you. You've been a— you've— Jamie's been a wonderful friend throughout my whole experience here. For somebody who's very new to writing books, Jamie, Jamie's not, so she was great at checking in on me. When I needed it, when I needed it most. I would love for you to tell the listeners here kind of your short story of— you went from wait— as a waitress at Denny's to now CEO, billion-dollar company. I mean, that's with a B. You know, how, how did you get there and where are you at now?

Yeah, well, I think it's a story that so many people listening and watching us right now can I'm sure relate to in many ways. And it's also part of why I think the work you're doing, Jeff, is so powerful because when it comes to communication and especially how we communicate with ourselves about ourselves can change everything. And it's funny, a lot of people, if they Google my story, they'll see sort of the outcome or maybe the highlight reel, but the real journey was, I mean, most of my life the way I communicated to myself was very much around, am I enough? Am I worthy of these things? And so much of my life was filled with a lot of self-doubt. And so I think that, you know, when people look at the outcome now and maybe they've read some of my books or they've heard the story of, you know, starting the company in my living room, selling it to L'Oréal for over a billion dollars cash, like just things that just seem wild. Like I must just be so confident and have so much self-confidence. Self-worth. And I've gotten to that point where I'm able to talk to myself and communicate with myself and of course others from a place of, you know, okay, I'm worthy of my goals and dreams. But for anyone listening who's maybe in that place where they still have that self-doubt, which is kind of wild because Jefferson, as you and I are talking right now, 80% of women don't believe they're enough. 73% of men feel inadequate and not enough. And a lot of times we hide it and we think it's just us or you know, there's something wrong with us, or maybe we aren't enough. And, you know, what I've learned to believe is like when we fundamentally believe we're not enough or unworthy, it's a lie. And it's a lie we keep telling ourselves over and over that becomes our ceiling in so many areas of our life. And the beautiful thing is through work like yours, like mine, like so many things out there, like, you know, we're able to unlearn those lies and really believe we're enough. So for my story, I was raised in a suburb of Washington State and I used to sit— my parents worked a lot and I would watch Oprah every day in my living room. And I used to have this kind of whisper when I was a little kid, and I'm sharing this in case anyone listening has had a similar experience, but I'd have this whisper like, "One day I'm going to host a show like she does and share other people's stories with the world and help so many people." And I also had this kind of whisper, like I would I would meet her one day. And as this kid in the middle of a suburb of Washington State who didn't know nobody who knew nobody, it was sort of just this big kind of wild thing, but I had that whisper. And growing up, I did all these jobs trying to eventually make my dream happen. So I pushed grocery carts in the Safeway parking lot and bagged groceries and sold popcorn at the swap meet and was a receptionist and coached gymnastics. And I worked a lot of jobs trying to pay my way through school, waitressed at Denny's. And I remember the days waitressing at Denny's, Jefferson, I would have moments where I would look around the restaurant because our kitchen had operational challenges and the pancakes would always take like an hour to get out. Customers would leave. It was a mess. And I used to have these thoughts like, I can run this restaurant one day. And I'd have these big ideas, but my self-doubt at the time was so loud. The way I communicated with myself was like, oh, but You're not qualified. You don't know anyone who runs it. You know, that kind of thing. So I would sort of doubt myself out of things during that season of my life. And fast forward to where we are today. It's been a wild, crazy journey building IT Cosmetics from my living room all the way to selling it for $1 billion. The story is really a story of learning how do you turn down the volume on your own self-doubt and like sort of turn up the volume on your knowing that you are enough, that you're worthy, that your dreams are possible for someone like you. And I had to learn how to do that. And I would say the journey of learning how to communicate with myself and then others, because I started going live on QVC to sell our products, the journey of learning how to communicate without that, none of this would have happened. I wouldn't have believed I was worthy of my dreams. I wouldn't have believed I was worthy of being called CEO, of having a team of over 1,000 employees, of going from Denny's waitress to selling a company to L'Oréal that I started in my living room for over $1 billion. It was really— my whole story is really a journey of learning not just how to communicate with customers and through product and on television, but also just in my own head.

Yeah. And what I love so much about your story, Jamie, is that it is like you said, the whispers, like these little things that we tell ourselves, it really can be achievable. You obviously have something special of where you are now is incredible. For anybody just now listening, Jamie is the first female CEO in L'Oréal's 100-year history. That's incredible. Like, that is such a ceiling breaker moment. And I know through our relationship, you have been told, you know, many times. You face rejection many times. And for people that, as you know, and here the listeners really care about how they communicate— how can we improve our conversations just bit by bit, time by time, conversation by conversation? So I want to have a discussion with you. First, I want to take it on Whenever you got told no, and when you're building IT Cosmetics in your living room, you're going on QVC, you're doing all these things, you have to continue to run into this doubt, continually run into, am I just the crazy person? Am I out of my mind? Am I thinking I'm bigger than what I am? Am I— it's just so many crevices for doubt to creep in. So what was the conversation like? How did Jamie talk to herself from the beginning to how she talks to herself now?

This might be one of my favorite questions I've ever been asked because I think that so many of us doubt ourselves out of our own destiny and like doubt ourselves out of our own potential and think that somebody else's no is somehow an indication that our idea is not gonna work or our business isn't gonna work or we don't have what it takes. And that's not the case at all. And I think when you can learn how to change your your relationship with rejection and nos, you can change your entire life. And the foundation of doing that is how you communicate with yourself about rejection and nos. And so, you know, for anyone right now who's listening who feels like they're stuck or they're in a season of setback or their idea isn't getting traction or they put their art out there and nobody's liking it yet or they keep pitching their book idea and getting a rejection from publisher after publisher. Or their business just isn't getting traction. I am absolutely a billion percent sure, Jefferson, that other people's nos or rejections is no indication of the potential that it's gonna work. And so for me, you know, I, you know, I was, I thought I was in my dream job, right? So my whole journey to building IT Cosmetics actually started with a season of setback. And I was anchoring the news. I'd finally, you know, made my way to my dream job. And I was like, one day I'm gonna host, I'm gonna have, you know, my own show and one day, you know, I'll have Oprah on it. I just thought those things and I was working so hard.

And you did.

Yeah.

And you did.

How wild, by the way, right? With my podcast, I've been so blessed with the Jamie Kernly Michelle Podcast to have Oprah as the very first guest and have Jefferson Fisher on. What?

What? Yeah. But let's be clear, you had Oprah on as your first guest. So you totally, as a kid, whispered to yourself, that would be my thing. And now you've done it. I mean, I, It's such an incredible realization that, yes, how you treat rejection is everything.

It's everything. And here's the thing is like, I wanna say really quick, just anyone who has a whisper and maybe they feel like it hasn't happened yet, sometimes it takes 40 years to happen. But those whispers you have are worth trusting, whether they're ones you've had as a little kid or you're having as an adult right now that you're supposed to, you know, make a change in your career or just speak up for the first time or raise your hand at work or share your idea And you know what? Sometimes it comes with rejection. But I'd finally gotten hired in television news and was anchoring the news. And I thought, Jefferson, like, "I'm in my dream job. This is it. This is it." And what I didn't realize was I was about to enter a huge season of setback and self-doubt. And, you know, I have a hereditary skin condition on my face called rosacea, and it gets really bumpy, really red. Sometimes it feels like sandpaper. And I had been to tons of dermatologists about it, and there's no cure. You know, I tried all the things. So anyways, it was no big deal. I was always able to cover it with makeup. And one day I was live on the air anchoring the news and I hear in my earpiece from the producer, "There's something on your face. You need to wipe it off. You need to wipe it off." And I glanced down during the commercial break and I saw it was, the makeup was breaking up almost like the way you imagine desert clay cracking and the red coming through. So I reached down, went to cover it, but it wouldn't cover. And then I'm back live on the air in front of millions of people and I hear in my earpiece as I'm talking, you know, You're live on the air, so you can't talk back. But I hear on my earpiece, "It's still there. It's still there." And that moment started this whole detour in my life. And, you know, not only a season of what felt like a lot of setback and self-doubt, because I would try every makeup product out there. Nothing would work, right? And listen, I had no idea I would one day start a makeup company. I'm just there in this career that I think this is what I'm called to do. And every time then I would go, go live on the air, I would still hear like, okay, it's still there, Jamie, it's still there. And I started having a lot of self-doubt. I'd be live on the air thinking thoughts like, am I gonna get fired? Like, am I costing the station ratings right now? And I'll never forget— and by the way, what I know for sure, Jefferson, no matter if someone has faith or no faith, I believe this in my whole heart, it's a universal thing— I really believe that the setbacks that happen in our life. So often our setbacks are actually God's setups for what we're called to do next, and the step we're supposed to take next, and the season we're supposed to go through next. We just don't often know it at the time. It just doesn't, it's not so fun. But I remember the moment I had this whisper again, like, well, if you can't find anything that works for you, nothing will cover your skin, and you're having all kinds of problems at work, like, what if you figure out how to create something? 'Cause if you can figure out how to create something that works for you, it's probably gonna help a whole lot of other people. So I had that kind of knowing and that I felt like came from my gut, but my head was really quick to talk me out of it. It was like, oh, but you've got no money. You don't know anyone in the beauty industry. You have no connections. And I sat in that place between having that whisper or that gut feeling or that knowing that, you know, what if I do this? What if I totally take a detour and launch, a business and try to figure out how to solve a problem that I can't find a product to solve. And, and I one day just had this, this overwhelming feeling that if I could do it, that, you know, my whole life I had seen makeup ads on television and magazines, and they always use sort of like Photoshopped images of, of, of models with flawless skin. I had never seen anybody with bright red, bumpy rosacea saying buy this product. And I kind of realized that even though I love those those ads, they always deep down inside made me feel like I wasn't enough. And one day, Jefferson, on the news desk, I got this like big aha moment, this big feeling where I was like, if I can figure out how to find great chemists and figure out how to make a great product and it actually works, what if I also put real people as models? Like every age, shape, size, skin tone, skin challenge like me, call them beautiful and mean it. What if there's something I could do that's way bigger than myself, way bigger than a where I could try to help shift the definition of beauty in the entire beauty industry for every little girl out there who's about to see those ads and start doubting herself too, and every grown woman who still does. So that kind of big why came to me. That's when I made the decision to quit my job. On my honeymoon flight with my husband, on our honeymoon, we wrote the business plan to IT Cosmetics, got back, quit our jobs, poured every penny we had into this thing, and, which wasn't a lot of pennies, by the way, We poured everything we had into this. And Jefferson, just for anyone who needs to hear this, like what I didn't realize is from the day we launched that business and went all in, it would be over 3 years until we could even pay ourselves a penny. But hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of nos. So every single expert or beauty retailer that I loved, like Sephora or Ulta or QVC, they all said no after no after no. No, you're not the right fit. You need to use, you know, unattainable aspirational models. They would say women won't buy makeup from images that look like what you're showing, like my rosacea or real people, because at the time it wasn't being done. And I entered the season.

Well, you certainly proved them wrong. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Yeah. And I think it's to your point, it was about learning how to communicate with myself about rejection. And, you know, for the longest time, like right now, if everyone in your audience— you could do this tool together right now— every single person listening right now, if you imagine yourself getting rejected or you imagine, you know, um, uh, failing at something right now, and without thinking about it, you just think of the first thought that comes to your head when that happens, if you imagine yourself getting rejected or failing, um, for me it was always, oh, I'm not enough. There's proof I'm not enough. And when I've asked this question, you know, in rooms before and have people shout out their first thought, a lot of people shout out things like, oh, I shouldn't have even tried. I'm stupid. I, you know, what was I even thinking going for it? A lot of people with the I'm not enough thing. And whatever your first thought is about rejection or failure is your current definition. Of rejection or failure. And this is really important because as human beings, you know, we're wired to avoid pain at all costs. And so if we, you know, give a meaning to rejection or failure that's negative, that's painful, we're more likely to be stuck and not go for things. And, you know, what I did on my journey that was life-changing, in case someone needs to hear this today, is one day I just sat down and I was like, I'm getting so much rejection. Everybody is saying no. And every time this is happening, I'm telling myself it means I'm not enough. And I'm so close to giving up. But when I get still or pray about it, like I know I'm supposed to keep going. And so I wrote out one day, okay, my current definition of rejection is I'm not enough, but let me see what's actually true about rejection. Like what's a better definition that every time it happens to me, I can replace it with that empowering definition of rejection so that I'm able to keep going so that I can communicate to myself with this tool that empowers me every time I get knocked down instead of making me want to quit? And so one day I just sat there and I wrote out new definitions. And the key is you have to believe they're true. So for me, you know, I wrote out, you know, rejection is God's protection. And I believe that. Like, I believe in my soul that God will block your value from people who aren't assigned to your destiny. I believe that.

Oh, I like that. I like how you put that.

Yeah, like that's one definition. Another one, you know, rejection's redirection, or rejection is a victory because it means I'm one of the brave ones willing to go for it. Like most people just sit on the sidelines and don't go for it. But like every rejection, I'm going to celebrate it because it means I'm one of the brave ones. And so I started sort of creating this toolbox of definitions that I literally would believe. So I, you know, I have a lot of issues in my life, Jefferson. I know as my friend, you probably know some of them, but one of them is not fear of rejection. I am virtually I virtually became fearless of rejection and failure. And it was so key being able to communicate that way with myself was so key because every time I get another rejection from QVC who said, you're not the right fit to present your products, right? And by the way, we eventually became the biggest beauty brand in QVC's history. But what a lot of people don't know is they said no for years and it was that ability to communicate with myself and just make a decision. I'm gonna assign this meaning to rejection. I'm gonna believe it's gonna be a yes one day, but right now, you know, I believe rejection is God's protection, which means the timing's not right yet. You know, you just assign the meanings. Another great definition is, oh, I'm putting in the reps. I'm one step closer to yes. I'm putting in the reps. And I think that, you know, we talk so much about cancel culture, I think that the single greatest cause of cancel culture that nobody talks about is us canceling ourselves before we even try. And when you learn to communicate with yourself around rejection or failure and just go for it, it can literally single-handedly change the course of your life, your dreams, your career, your job, who you end up in a partnership with. It can change every part of your life.

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I'm so passionate about it, Jefferson.

Yeah, well, there's so many things to unpack in that. And so where I want to— or I want to take it real quick is we My audience really likes very practical things, practical strategies. What I'm picking up from you is what you found to work for you is reassigning, redefining, new definitions of what rejection is.

Yes.

Instead of seeing rejection as a no, you are editing your dictionary to what, if you had to look it up, find the page, find the R, go down, R-E, and find the word rejection, you're going to, within your own life, have a totally different definition that does not see it as a setback, but something that is only part of your stepping stone, your journey. So redefining exactly what it means. I am curious on when you were, when was the time that you really felt like you had gotten the product going, and you made your first ask and you got your first nos. What year was that?

So we launched in 2007. Yeah. And then, and then it was in 2010. So it was about 3 years of hundreds and hundreds of nos. And they ranged from retailers saying no to, you know, I had a potential investor who I really thought was going to be our saving grace because we were so close to bankruptcy for years, which a lot of people don't know that we were just like like barely alive, like barely alive.

Yeah, right. Which is what most entrepreneurs are. I mean, they are, they are, it's the passion that pushes them forward. So back in 2007, 2003, I'm curious if we could go back in time and talk to that Jamie. When you got the nose right then, what did you say to yourself? Because we're going to compare it later. So the conversation you would have with yourself— was it, okay, I need to be better, or, oh my gosh, am I doing the right thing? Now I have to imagine, like, what are the words of doubt that you had then?

Yeah, so I mean, in the very— most of my life, anytime I had rejection or failure, but also in the beginning of building this business, it was almost always a version of, yep, there's proof again, I'm not enough. Great things like this don't happen to people like me. Me, right? Like, you know, maybe my past mistakes and, you know, not doing X, Y, or Z is now showing up and great things like this don't happen to people like me and my family. I mean, there's so many things. They're all a version for me of, you know, oh, there's proof again I'm not enough. And the rejections were so much. I mean, and, you know, a lot of times we'll quit after one no or 20 nos. And will think that, "Oh, maybe I was wrong. Maybe my gut or my intuition was wrong." You know, there's people that meditate and get a strong feeling and they think maybe that is wrong. People that will pray and they'll be like, "Did I hear God wrong?" Right? Because nothing around me seems to be going right. And so, you know, one big moment that really stands out to me is, you know, and I knew Jefferson, I knew if I'm gonna have a shot, I'm either going to give up and quit or I'm going to have to really change the way I communicate with myself. And if I'm going to keep going, I'm going to have to believe. I'm going to have to figure out how to believe this is going to happen even when there's no proof around me that it's happening, even when nobody seems to agree with me. And I'm going to have to believe it's going to happen. And the second part of it was I'm going to have to believe I'm worthy of it happening. Because, you know, our self-worth can be our ceiling in almost every area of life. And it's why I'm so obsessed with building self-worth. It's why I'm so obsessed with, you know, us learning to believe that we're enough and believe we're worthy of our goals and dreams. You know, we all know someone who on the outside you're like, oh, that person's so great and they're amazing. And, you know, she is the She's so smart and beautiful and talented. Why is she with that person that treats her horrible? And it's like, we can be confident in a lot of areas, but if underneath all of it, we don't believe we're worthy of the thing, right? We can only— our self-worth becomes our ceiling. And so for me, it was sort of two parts. It was learning to communicate with myself about all the nos, but also learning to believe, to make the decision, to believe that, that what I'm building and the outcome I'm hoping for is possible for me. And also to believe that I'm worthy of it. And it was a big journey because I would have big steps forward where I would just absolutely focus on, okay, I'm going to change the definition of beauty in the whole beauty industry. And that felt bigger than myself. That felt bigger than myself. And so on all the days I would get knocked down, I would remember that. And then I would decide to really intentionally decide a new meaning for rejection. So one time, for example, we were so close to bankruptcy and we had gotten a call from a potential investor who was really well known, a private equity firm. And they'd gotten ahold of our product and loved it. And I was like, "Oh, this is going to be huge," right? Because all the retailers kept saying no, all of them. And I had this vision we're going to be on QVC one day, but they kept telling me no and that I wasn't the right fit. And this potential investor, I was like, "This is our saving grace." Very well-known private equity firm. They've taken a lot of pre-revenue companies and turned them into companies we all buy in the grocery store and big box retailers. And I was like, "If they invest, A, we're not going to go bankrupt. And B, what if I can use their power, their leverage to get us into all these stores that keep telling me no?" So I was so excited and we did meeting after meeting after meeting and we flew up for the final meeting. We entered the diligence phase, by the way, which is where you're going to do a deal. You're going to do an investment.

You're very close.

Yeah, you're very close. And we presented our whole product pipeline at the very end of the meeting. And I'm sharing this story for anyone who's ever had anybody tell them they're not enough or give them a painful no. I really was holding this investor on a pedestal at the time. And the very end of the meeting, his whole team was there. They're amazing. And he says to me, "Congratulations. You should be so proud. This is a really, really great product, but it's a no. We're going to pass on investing in IT Cosmetics." And I said, "Okay. Can you tell me why?" Because feedback's usually a gift. And I'd heard no so many times. And he got really still and he says, "Do you want me to be really honest with you?" And I was like, "Yes, please." And he said to me, he said, "I just don't think women will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight." And Jefferson, I remember in the moment, I never actually felt any anger toward him, but I felt like this lifetime of self-doubt and body doubt like fled through my body. So it kind of felt like I was staring my own fear straight in the eye. But when he said those words to me, I'll never forget this because on the topic of how do we communicate with ourselves, right? And how it can change our lives. When he said those words to me, "I just don't think women will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight," I got this feeling in my gut, like deep down inside that was so strong. I can feel it right now that I'm thinking about it. In my gut that said he's wrong. He's wrong. And I felt it. And I'll never forget, Jefferson, in the next— I didn't hear from him again for 6 years. But in that 6-year window, there would be times where all of a sudden his words would replay in my mind. And 2 things that I would do, just to be really practical, I would literally imagine myself with a giant radio dial, like a volume dial, turning down the volume on his word. And turning up the volume on that knowing I felt in my gut that said he's wrong. And then the second thing I would do is I would just remind myself, you know, and I have several definitions of rejection that I usually apply, but in that case, I would just tell myself, okay, rejection's God's protection. He's blocking my value from that investor because for some reason he's not assigned to my destiny. I'm going to choose to believe that instead of feeling like I'm not enough, it's never going to happen. I'm going to be like, I was like, "Thank you, because something better is coming." And just to tell you one quick thing for everyone listening, because sometimes we don't see the upside of things till way later. 6 years later, right? We had gotten a shot on QVC and we had grown and grown and grown and, you know, built to over 1,000 employees and had gotten into all these retail stores that were saying no. And so much had happened. And the day that L'Oréal bought our company, And y'all, we were so close to bankrupt for years, right? All of a sudden, fast forward, you know, it was about an 8-year window all in of doing like 100-hour weeks and working so hard. But it was really applying these tools that made such a big difference. 8 years later, L'Oréal's buying our company. And the night before the deal, I learned that they have to disclose the purchase price. And my family did not know. I mean, they knew we were okay maybe at that point, but like nobody knew how big how big the company had grown. And so the day that they bought the company, it was everywhere. It was on the homepage of the Wall Street Journal. It was everywhere. L'Oréal buys IT Cosmetics for $1.2 billion cash. And there's all these articles, you know, Denny's waitress becomes billion-dollar entrepreneur, first female CEO. That was the first time I heard from that investor in 6 years. And he called and said, congratulations on the L'Oréal deal. I was wrong.

And I'll never— In a big way.

In a big way. Well, and it's so funny, I'll never forget that moment because the first thing I thought was like, oh my gosh, like rejection's God's protection. For one, had he believed in me back then, I'd probably be on some diet. I probably would, who knows if I could have built this company that was inclusive of everyone. But also I remember when he said that, I remember the, do you remember the movie Pretty Woman where where she goes in the store and they won't help her. And then she goes back like a few days later. So what I wanted to say to him was, "Big mistake. Huge. Huge. I can give you 1.2 billion reasons why it's a huge mistake." But I didn't. I kept it classy because I wouldn't have wanted to be mean. But it's just like another tool. I think these experiences we all have, maybe even we look back on a relationship and we're like, "Thank goodness that didn't work out," even though we we really wanted it to work out. And we just look back and we start shifting our belief around what is, what rejection really is, and then leaning on that. And I feel like it can really be a tool, you know, for every part of our life.

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The most important thing is to make the decision that you're going to commit to learning you're worthy of using your voice, of saying what you mean, of saying how you feel. So many of us, myself included, but a lot of women, we're really raised to dim our light. And if you think about it, and this is very now traditional in the past, but still this way very much so, is that women will bond over problems and be very self-deprecating. Like, "Oh, my pants don't fit," or "This happened to me," or this. But we're not, you know, we're not comfortable sharing our wins and being extremely confident without somehow telling ourselves a story that it's arrogant or that we'll be excluded if we shine. And I think number one is realizing how much that doesn't serve us or our daughters or our granddaughters and making the decision to really almost do a quick audit of, you know, gosh, do I share my beliefs? Do I say what I really mean? Or do I kind of dim my light to make everyone else feel good? You know, am I comfortable celebrating my victories? And what I'll say, Jefferson, that's a great kind of tool to go from never wanting to celebrate your own wins, which a lot of women aren't comfortable with that, to actually getting to a place where you believe you're worthy of that, or you're worthy of being a CEO or of leading a team or of speaking your of sharing your opinion, or of tomorrow hopping on the team Zoom and raising your hand and sharing your idea. So many of us hold back, right? And a big sort of tool to get unstuck, especially as a woman, is to realize that by doing it— because we almost have to get outside of ourselves because we are so trained to dim our own light and to shrink into play small. Because a lot of us get rewarded for that our whole life, right? And to get out of that, I think the greatest single tool is to say, okay, I'm gonna share my idea. I'm going to cast a vision for our whole team. I'm gonna say what I really mean. I'm gonna speak up. I'm gonna celebrate my win because by doing that, it's actually setting an example and giving permission to other women to do it, right? Whether it's our daughters, our granddaughters, our nieces, our grandmothers, right? So often we have to see examples of things to be able to do it. And I think one of the greatest tools to start doing it, to start communicating more confidently and believing you're worthy of leading, is to, is to make it bigger than yourself as well and be able to do that. And So that's one thing. And then the second thing that I will say for every person, man or a woman, part of how we grew this business in our living room and it got bigger and passed almost every single beauty company in the country in terms of size and sales and all that was having a mission that was so clear that customers really felt the brand was for them. But then in terms of as a boss and a leader and a CEO, really having a clear vision and purpose where every single person in our company knew why they were there and what our mission was and how every single part of the job they're doing is purposeful toward that mission. We would have signs on every, every single person's desk where we had our customer in the middle, but we had our pillars of why we're doing what we're doing and the the impact we were having and trying to shift the definition around inclusivity in the whole beauty industry and around how to— we truly believe every person's beautiful. So our brand wasn't about, oh, change who you are. It was about who you are is enough. And if you love having fun, whether it's with your clothes or fashion or throwing on makeup or whatever, let's celebrate who you truly are. And so we had our mission really, really clear. And what's interesting, Jefferson, for anybody out there running a business or a team or leading One of our secret weapons— I, I was able to hire so many people away from other companies that brought incredible knowledge, and often they would take a pay cut. And the reason why was they didn't feel like they had any idea of what their real purpose and meaning was where they were at. They didn't feel like there was a North Star. They didn't feel like what they were doing mattered or was seen or valued. It didn't feel like they were fulfilled. And so, I think one thing we did really well in terms of communication that was really a big secret weapon inside the company was, I mean, we were unremitting about making sure everyone knew, like, this is why we're here. This is our mission. This is our North Star as a company. And every single thing you're doing to contribute to that is so valuable. And so we created this culture. The company is called IT Cosmetics and people started talking in IT language. I mean, it could be the accountant or our guy who was heading operations or someone in customer service. It didn't matter. They would write emails like, "Make IT a great day." And IT was always capitalized and everything became IT everything. And people, our customers took on this whole new language of, "I'm an IT girl. I'm an IT guy. I'm an IT mom. Survivor. So we've donated tens of millions of dollars to women facing the effects of cancer. But, you know, it just took on this whole thing, all from how we communicated, not just with our customers, but also internally about what the vision was. And it seems so simple, but it's amazing to this day, even with, with the podcast, right? When I get people applying to my podcast to work there, it's because they're just not sure what the purpose is in the one that they're working at now. They don't feel like a clear, a clear vision. And so I think, you know, the work that you do is so important right now, um, because how someone communicates, whether it's with themselves or in this case with their team, can literally change everything. It can be, it can be how you retain employees, it can be how you get employees from, from other even bigger, more successful companies to actually want work for you because they feel alive again. Without communication about the North Star and the purpose, people lose hope and they don't feel alive and they don't feel the day when they're at work.

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So two things come to mind that I see as patterns across, and I feel so blessed, Jefferson, and I think you and I can connect on this and also maybe so many people listening. Like some of the people, I mean, I was sitting in my living room, you know, and I was working so hard to waitress at Denny's, you know, so when I'm in rooms like that or when I I have some of the most incredible people in the world on my show, including you. I really am aware of how blessed I am. But I also, I do look at patterns and pattern recognition. And I would say two things that I think are really big. The first, the first, and this might surprise people, I don't care who it is. And I've met a lot of people at this point. Every single one of them still actually struggles with self-doubt. Out, every single one of them. And I think that's really important to call out because for the person who's watching and listening to us right now who might think that because they have self-doubt, they're disqualifying themselves from their dreams, or they're thinking stuff's not possible for them, or they couldn't one day run the company they're working for, or they couldn't one day have healthy relationships in their family, or whatever it might be, The thing that I've learned is I used to think I was alone in self-doubt or that something, you know, and I used to try to hide it. And I think the thing that I know now, beyond a shadow of a doubt, interview after interview on my show, it doesn't matter who it is, every single person has talked about their own feelings of self-doubt or feelings of being unworthy. And I think that, you know, learning how to navigate through those by things that you teach, you know, and I hope I teach in the book Worthy and on the podcast is like, the way you communicate with yourself and the tools that you can use. So I think this is really big because, you know, I could say, oh, all these people have something that we don't have. But really, I think the most important thing is to say, oh wow, they all have self-doubt too. And that means that, you know, the things I hope for in my own life are possible for me too. The second thing that, that, that comes to mind in a big way in terms of pattern recognition is that with this idea that energy is contagious, the thing I've seen is that some of the most successful people in the world, whether it's in business or thought leadership or in a public role of some sort, they're really good about, about making sure they have a circle around them that is— I don't know how to say it other than vibrating at a really high positive level. Versus a circle where there's negativity or gossip or things that pull you down, and they're very protective about it. And I think that when all of us think about the people we have around us, and like some of the people, we're not going to be like, "Oh, my mom is really negative. Peace out, Mom." Yeah. You know, some people we just need to learn, okay, because we can either have a close circle around us or are the people around us more like a cage? And I think asking ourselves, okay, let me see, how does it feel in my body when I think about the people that are around me, my closest people who I share what happened in my day, who I share when I'm feeling down, who I share when I have a great big idea or a big win? And when we think about those people we share those things with. With? How do they feel in our body? Do they empower us? Do they tell us the truth even when it's hard? But do they believe in us? Do they truly want the best for us? Does being around them, do we leave the room and we feel like, "Oh, I feel like I'm energized," or do we feel like depleted, like down? Like, "Oh, I went into that conversation believing this idea and now I feel like maybe I don't have what it takes." or, you know, and really paying attention to that feeling. Because a lot of us, instead of having a great circle around us, we have more of a cage. And you can change that. Like, even as an adult, you can, you know, love people, but maybe from a new distance. Maybe they're in your outer circle and you really think about making a few new friends as an adult or bringing mentors, even mentors online you may never meet, like Jefferson Fisher, your favorite people, bringing them into your inner circle and being like, who— how do I want to spend my time in a way that really elevates me? And, you know, there's a thing called, um, emotional residue, Jefferson. If—

and if—

and this is important, this is a great tool, actually super practical for anyone listening. If you think about when you eat a Cheeto, how it leaves orange on your fingers, or you drink like a blue Slurpee and your tongue is blue.

Yeah, Cheeto A bag of Cheeto Puffs hate to see me coming. I'll tell you, I'll destroy one.

Well, that's residue we can see. But when you're around people and then you leave a room, they'll leave an emotional residue on you and you can feel it. And so start paying attention to that and saying, how does that feel? And does, in my body, does that feel like joy? Does it taste like freedom? You know, or is it the opposite? And you know, when you ask about, about some of the most incredible people I feel so blessed to be in rooms with, as are you, by the way, that's the big thing I notice is they do a really good job of curating the people around them, not having yes people around them, nothing like that, but people in their inner circle, even in their personal life, that they can really trust, but that really want the best for them, that really want to see them do so well and that tell them the truth truth. And I think that's really, really important.

Jamie, I love that. What a— this has been so nice. What a wonderful reset. I always like to, of course, as you know, I do my 1-2-3s with conversations. And this is what I've picked up on for, for us, is number 1, when it comes to the conversations you have with yourself, especially when you run into rejection, you run into nos, you need to reassign relabel, redefine what the word rejection means to you. Jamie has an awesome tip for that, and that is to actually write it down. I don't— maybe you need to find a dictionary near you and mark it up and redefine exactly what rejection is. I love what Jamie has about that. Sometimes just God blocks people from seeing your value. They're not meant to be, um, they're not meant to be in your destiny. They're not going where you're going. Is what I like to say. I absolutely love that. 2, find your North Star. When you're in difficult conversations with people and you're afraid you're going to say something wrong, that's not the right question. The right question is, am I following my North Star? That's always going to point you in the right direction. And 3, what you say is often a determination of the words that you hear. That means you need to increase your circle in a positive way. Surround yourself with people who give you positive energy, Positive Influence. How do we do, Jamie?

Is that—

how do we feel on that one?

So good.

So good. The, um, so much of what you teach is— I know exactly where my book is. So my wife's been reading it, uh, it's right above her, uh, her laptop in the bathroom. We have this little build-out where she has a little thing. She has it opened right now. I thought I was about to get it, but yeah, I left it right there. Yeah, it's, it's a wonderful, wonderful book. So let me listen, for everybody right now, I want you to go get the book Worthy. It's got the shiniest, coolest cover you've ever seen. So everybody's going to be asking you, what is that? Jamie, where else can everybody find you? Again, the Jamie Kern Lima Podcast, fantastic. I love it. I've been on it and it was just, it's probably one, one of my favorite podcast experiences that I've had to date. Where else can we find you?

Well, our conversation is incredible. And when you're on my show, just like when you do anything, the emails that flood in, the DMs, the messages, um, you are truly blessing so many people. And I told you this on my show, I said, I know you're anointed to do this, and I am just so honored as your friend. And I think everyone listening and watching will join me in doing this, in celebrating you and the gift that you are and the tools that you share. And I meet people everywhere that talk about, uh, things that they've picked step from you that have really impacted their life. And so, um, I just want to celebrate you for a minute and also say I'm so grateful you've come on my show. And we have another, another part of our, another episode coming out soon with you. So, um, so, and I left our conversation just like floating. I was like, it was, it's so good because I know everyone—

it was the longest podcast I've been on, and it was also the shortest I felt like It was, like our conversation felt like it was just a few minutes.

Yeah, so I would say that's the best spot, the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast. And you know, I think when we talk about people creating their circles, one thing that is beautiful about technology now is you can, you know, listen to Jefferson's show or the Jamie Kern Lima Show for free and have this energy around you. 'Cause a lot of us maybe don't have that in our family or in the group we're around at work or whatever. And so it's just a beautiful way. And, um, and I'm just honored to be here and, and pour into everyone who gets to be blessed by you and just be part of it and celebrate you, Jefferson. And, um, and I loved our episode, so I'm excited for that to come out too on my show. And, um, and grateful to be here today with you. And congrats on everything, your new book and just all of it.

Thank you, Jamie. Thank you so much. Jamie Kern Lima, uh, I can't be more grateful to, to know you as a friend and to have you as a guest on the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Thank you for coming.

Thank you.