In this interview, Jefferson Fisher shares practical strategies for managing one’s emotions and maintaining control when interacting with people who have difficult personalities. He emphasizes the importance of breath control, noting that conscious breathing can prevent the physiological escalation that leads to louder, more defensive speech. Fisher advocates for strategic silence, arguing that saying less preserves credibility and avoids unnecessary conflict. He stresses the need to choose which conversations to engage in, likening the decision to an RSVP—one can politely decline arguments that aren’t worth the time or energy. To counter gaslighting, he recommends a simple phrase, “I remember things differently,” which deflects attempts to rewrite reality without further justification. When faced with “let’s agree to disagree,” he suggests explicitly granting permission to disagree, keeping the dialogue open while separating the person from the problem. Fisher introduces the concept of being a “wet blanket,” deliberately refusing to feed provocative comments, and advises against giving others an enemy, as maintaining neutral relationships preserves influence. He describes the overarching mindset as being “in the pocket,” a metaphor drawn from his experience as a musician, meaning staying mindful of one’s time, energy, and the moments when a response is warranted versus when silence is more powerful. Throughout, Fisher weaves personal anecdotes from his background as a trial attorney and musician to illustrate these techniques, concluding that true power lies in self‑control rather than trying to control others.
Chapters
Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?
My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like, when you are feeling threatened, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation. And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, well, I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're going to have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just, you lose your credibility. You've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got now? Now it's just awkward. You want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kind of control your breath and your shoulders.
And shoulders, like pull them back?
No, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's tension. Makes you cranky.
Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table, and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with. Yeah. Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And when you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.
Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. Because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, I can RSVP no, I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um, you've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.
Me. It's what I'm realizing.
It's the person who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that company, versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident. Because confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. "I see things differently," or "I remember things differently," period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and trying to challenge your truth. "I remember things differently," period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them. "I remember things differently." In my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. I remember things differently, period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often you have this— you ever been in those arguments where the person goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, and they have to go the whole timeline of everything? No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so-and-so came in and remember the water that came and they spilled that, and they want to go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them. Expecting you to say, yes, that's exactly what happened. I remember things differently. You don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not going to ask you for it because you're just not going with them.
When somebody says, well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Yeah. Which always sounds a little passive. Is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?
I don't like it when somebody says, well, we can agree to disagree. I open it up, say it's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree. It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't disagree with you. So open it up to give that permission. If you disagree with me, I want to know. I want to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often you can talk different ways of how you're going to disagree with somebody. I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently. Something that just says, yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach. I tend to have another approach. And so it's a matter of I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there. As long as you're not talking about the other person of you are X, you're so X. It's that whole separating the person from the problem.
I love this because there's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke.
Yeah.
They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of an opinion out there. And it's so offensive or like, eh, that you kind of stop and think, you don't even believe that, right? Like you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody. Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently?
It's certainly one you could easily say. I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that. It's okay to say, I don't have an opinion, or if I had an opinion, I'd give it. That's pretty easy of, I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure. Finding ways of just being what I like to call the wet blanket.
The wet blanket. The wet blanket. Just like on a fire.
Exactly.
Just throw a wet blanket on the fire. 'Cause there are times where I literally just wanna be like, you're a complete idiot.
Right, right, right.
And then I think, why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it and then you grab it and you're—
Exactly.
And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.
Well, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you're such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very— just—
I've had that comment.
You have?
Yeah, that they didn't— they— I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy. So I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury. If— as long as the jury likes you, they— yeah, you, you're 90% there.
Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.
Yeah.
No, seriously, don't give someone else an enemy.
Yeah.
Like, if you go— and this isn't about, like, being somebody who is soft.
Yeah.
And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy and who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.
I like to call it being in the pocket.
What is that?
Well, and I'm a musician.
And I'm— Oh, really?
Yeah, I play drums. And for real, I play several instruments.
But yeah, I can't imagine you behind a drum set.
You should have seen me.
And did you ever have long hair?
I did. Yeah, I had the whole like— Yeah, I've been in multiple bands. There's a whole thing.
And wow. Okay, now, but part of it— this is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person that they are. Okay.
Exactly, yeah. And it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not lagging, you're not loud and forceful, you're not calling attention to yourself, you're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy. I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket You can't take it on every social situation. But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, this is a difficult person, it's just a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning, and they were feeling it before they even entered the room. That the problem is not you, instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're going to come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.
