In this interview, communication expert Jefferson Fisher identifies the primary error people make in interpersonal communication: treating conversations as battles to win rather than opportunities to understand. He explains how this win‑or‑lose mindset erodes credibility and relationships. Fisher then outlines a concrete three‑step apology method: (1) plainly say "I'm sorry" for the specific action, (2) validate the other person's feelings as reasonable, and (3) commit to a future corrective action. He highlights common language pitfalls—conditional apologies ("I'm sorry if…") and blaming the listener ("I'm sorry you were offended")—and stresses taking full accountability. Drawing on his background as a trial lawyer, Fisher describes how courtroom experience cultivates a detached, third‑person view of communication, enabling strategic adjustments and awareness of audience perception. He advocates for a healthy communication style rooted in authenticity, balance, and connection rather than seeking mere likability or fear, emphasizing confidence, control, and genuine intent. Finally, Fisher reflects on the broader cultural shift toward authentic, long‑form media (e.g., podcasts) that challenges the inauthentic, scripted tone of legacy news, reinforcing the demand for genuine dialogue.
Chapters
What would you say are the biggest mistakes that people make when communicating with others? Biggest mistakes that people make in interpersonal communication?
They're communicating to win, not communicating to understand. Too often they feel like they have a point that they want to make, and you have to understand that point. You have to take and adopt that point. Not tomorrow, now. And there's this urge of control of, I need you to lose to me. I need to win the argument when really conversations, especially the difficult conversations and arguments, there's something to unravel, to find the knot in the heart of the matter rather than finding that everything about it is conflicting. Because as soon as you win an argument, you lose a lot more. I mean, you lose your credibility, you lose that connection, that relationship. When if you and I are in a bad argument and I I throw that cutting word at you so I can win just for that moment. I mean, what'd I do? You won. Congratulations. I've now won awkward silence. I've now won contempt. I've now— I mean, we still have to probably communicate with that person in some way. You have to work with them, live with them. And that feeling of, oh, I finally gave that good zinger, it lasts 10 seconds. The next day you're going, why'd I say that? That was such a And now you regret, now you have to apologize. And so that win you thought you wanted isn't what you needed after all.
You're so right. One of my favorite videos of yours, you share with people how to best apologize, which sounds like it would be so self-explanatory, you know, something just like hardwired into, you know, our psyche, but there's actually like a method to it. So how do we best apologize?
Well, it's more difficult than you think to do it in the moment. That's the hard part. And I break it down really into 3 bite-sized steps anybody can implement. And one is, it's the apology. This is the easier part of, "I'm sorry, I apologize." It's as simple as that. Two, it is telling them how they feel is reasonable and justified. For example, let's say the first part is, "Hey, I'm sorry that I said that." Second part is, "I understand how that could be upsetting," or, "You're right to be upset by that." You're acknowledging how they're feeling because that's really the key, is you have to kind of agree and acknowledge of, "Hey, how you feel is absolutely okay. It's not the 'can you just get over this?'" It's the acknowledgement part. And last, third, is showing some kind of future step. In other words, you're showing that, "Hey, we're going to switch this in the future," and it might be that I understand now that this is important to you, or I'm going to make sure I don't bring up this topic again, or in the future I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. That's the only way you learn, because there's always those people, Max, that when you apologize and they apologize to you, you know it's— they're going to do it again.
Yeah, yeah, it's—
they don't really mean it. But when you have some kind of future plan of action, it's showing that there's kind of a Completion of the circle.
Hmm. Yeah, and also I love how you break it down where, you know, it's important to apologize by saying I'm sorry I, as opposed to I'm sorry you, or sorry that.
I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, the words I'm sorry if.
Hmm.
So a lot of times they have people that I'm sorry if that upset you. To that you respond, it's not if, it's that. It's a lot of times they want to make it conditional. I'm sorry if I hurt you, as if they don't know that it did. Or, I'm sorry that you— that's a terrible way to apologize. If you always say, I'm sorry that you— I'm sorry that you were offended, you don't apologize for their feelings. Apologize for what you did, you know. Apologize for what you said. So it's always, I'm sorry that I— it's taking that extra step of accountability.
What is it about your background as a lawyer that has given you this that is such a unique skill set?
Um, it's a little bit a mix of my own personality and law. Like, law school teaches you how to read the law, it doesn't teach you how to read people. And so I think some of that is just a natural inclination of my own personality. If I were to say what trial experience does as an attorney, meaning you're dealing with litigation, parties, courtrooms, hearings, is that it allows you to see the conflict. It's very easy to kind of, instead of being right up in it, it's that power of detachment of, I can see the communication happening while I'm talking to that person as if I'm watching it from a movie. And having that wherewithal helps you go, now this is how I need to tweak this, this is how I need to prepare this. Because when you're dealing with that difficult witness on the stand and you have 12 jurors who are watching, a judge, a bailiff, and court reporter, You're not just thinking of your next sentence. You have to think of how it looks in the entire picture. What's it going to make not just that person feel, as you would in regular communication? It's all the more important that it's how the others are going to feel about that interaction. So that's, that's where it comes into this power of seeing it from a third-person point of view. Hmm.
So how should we seek to make others feel about us when communicating? Is it all about just Garnering likeness, or like, how should we approach each interaction? Like, is it we want this person to like us, we want this person to respect us? I mean, maybe there are some people out there that appreciate being feared by others, which I think sounds actually quite pathologic. Yeah, but, but yeah, like, what is— what should be the goal of— I mean, I guess it might differ context, you know, in in different contexts, but like, yeah, what is the goal of like a healthy communication style?
Any healthy communication style is one where everybody is, for the most part, a balance. So there's not too much pressure from you and not too much pressure from me. It's not that you want everybody to like you. Now that's an innate thing, I think, within all of us. Like when you meet somebody new, meeting you for the first time today, there's always an intrinsic part of me is I want this person to like me. Vice versa. And how you communicate— to me, the only way to do that is to be as authentic as possible. When somebody is trying to be somebody they're not, we sense it. Like when somebody's on the stand, the jurors have a sixth sense of if that person's being genuine or not. You can see it on social media. Somebody does a post and you go, I don't— there's something about this that feels off, it feels fake, they feel like they're trying to gain maybe sympathy or maybe somebody is faking an emotion. Anytime you try to pour icing too much on somebody, if all I did was just compliment how great you were and how wonderful you are, it sounds good for a second but then you go, ah, the more you say, the less I believe. And there's this element of, now something about this is a facade, a surface of some sort. And what I teach and what I outline in the book is when you want to communicate truly, It's all about path of connection. Instead of always seeing things as a conflict, it's a way to connect to somebody. And you do that by, one, saying things with control. I mean, you're controlling not just your own body, but acknowledging and being able to recognize the symptoms in other people. Two is to say things with confidence, to be able to assert yourself in ways that you can speak your needs more directly. Because I think that's a crucial element of real communication is when you are having that heart-to-heart, when I can share that and say things to you directly without feeling rude or that I'm taking advantage of you or manipulating the situation. And lastly, you say it to connect, meaning you handle that difficult conversation with one that you feel like you really stood your ground on, or you feel like you represented yourself rather than feeling like you always regretted that conversation. Because we've all had those difficult ones where after you got done, you go, God, that went terrible, or I don't feel like I represented myself well. And that's, I think that's the way that you try to handle almost any conversation you can.
Yeah, and it speaks so much, I think, to the times that we live in where, you know, we're seeing now that long-form conversations by way of podcasting has really supplanted in many ways legacy media, the media of the past, you know, couple of decades, century almost, you know, where the communication style was inherently inauthentic, you know, like local news reporters. I mean, they speak a certain way, and the way that they speak, right, is not how any other normal human being speaks.
It's not even how they speak.
It's not even how they speak. Yeah, exactly.
I think you're right. I believe that when COVID hit, it changed a lot because you saw people for who they were. You saw people just posting from their phone, hair all messed up, just rolled out of bed. I mean, messy bun, the whole thing. They're just real. And slowly, I think we're transitioning more to wanting to see the real not the polish, not the fake, the facade. They truly want to feel that. I mean, a lot of your most followed creators that are not celebrities, they don't have— I mean, if you see ones of somebody putting on their makeup, right? I mean, that's what a lot of women do, and it's real. Or guys that are just getting done with some kind of workout, or they're talking about kids' stuff. It's, uh, people are looking for the real. Same in communication. They just want the real. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.
